Midnight_Son

Consider this thread a test, to satisfy my own curiosity, to see if it can be done.
The question I pose to all of you is this: Why do we constantly argue / debate over religion? Why is it so important for others to share our views on these matters?

NOTE: here’s where I throw my little wrench in the gears, I want no responses that include your convictions about religion or lack thereof…..rather, I refer you back to my question at hand….. I want you all to separate your convictions from your opinions and answer this question in a non-bias manner. Can you do it?

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SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

mml

For most people who are religious, religion is the foundation of their lives. Regardless of denomination, it sets up the precepts upon which life should be lived and the basis for good and evil. When one's personal beliefs are challenged or ignored, they feel slighted and feel that their personal moral base is being undermined. To put it WAY TOO SIMPLY,we all like to be right, and if someone has a different religion, it means they think you are wrong.

Add to this that many religions teach that adherents should spread the word and help convert others(an obvious outcome if you believe your way leads to redemption/nirvana etc...) and you get the inevitable outcome of disputes.

The same theory of being right applies to those who do not adhere to a religious philosophy. They have beliefs that are often just as stong as those who are religious and will defend them just as forcefully.

Finally, religion is interesting. The many different ways in which people celebrate their faith are fascinating, and the concept of religion encompasses so many things that we, as humans, tend to argue about. Philosophy, politics, social mores, sex etc...all get wrapped up in religion. I seems inevitable that we argue about religion.

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Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so."
-Douglas Adams

phukraut

One of the fundamental questions of philosophy since at least the Greeks was the nature of God (or gods), death and the afterlife. This is not too surprising to see still today because God is still the easiest and most comprehensible way to think about how the world works and how human behaviour ought to be dictated. Until recently, religion and God have been linked.

At the same time, the development of empiricism and the like has really bled into popular culture and so the debate between thinking about the world in terms of a God (in a religious structure) and thinking about it without the need for God is a natural point of debate. of course that's not new, but obviously it's unresolved.

secondly, not throwing my personal convictions in, i will say that the nature of life and death, as well as the ethics of life, can be an important issue for many people. that means people will want to talk about it. when someone believes that God or a religious structure is responsible or in some way plays a part in those things, those will obviously be the points of argument.

thirdly, religion and a belief in God is generally assumed to require faith. this is not considered a rational approach but something else althogether, in the realm of feeling and emotion. Is it then surprising that people want to talk about this, and express their passions?

fourthly, some religions, particularly modern-western religions, have a tradition of "spreading the good news". hence we see some posts about it here.

one thing that i cannot explain is why atheists or even agnostics feel the need to argue over God still today. someone once told me they believed that belief in christianity (or a similar religion) is harmful to a person's wellbeing and development. that MAY a bit too socratic for today (debatable), but it could help explain why these arguments still rage on?

sipsake

Many times, I post when I feel that the faith I choose to follow is being misrepresented.

On the one hand, there are non-Christians who indict the entire religion based on a narrow set of perceived beliefs.

On the other hand, there are Christians who follow doctrines I feel are incorrect.

There's a huge gamut of beliefs that fall under the Christian faith. A jewish rabbi commented to my class once that the variety of beliefs held by different Christian denominations can almost classify them as different faiths.

This isn't unique to Christianity. For example, there are a great many different schools of Buddhist thought, some of them wildly divergent.

My goal isn't to convert the heathen or condemn the heretics, but to simply add another point of view.

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When life hands you a lemon, say "Oh yeah, I like lemons. What else you got?"

Henry Rollins

floonine

Maybe believing in or against religion creates a foundation for people, where-in their world is based upon.

A person who believes in a religion might feel that it answers the really hard questions, regardless if the answers are easy to understand or not. A person who doesn't believe in religion might feel that the questions don't need outside assistance to answer. If religion then begins to exist, or ceases to exist, the basis of one's life could be turned upside down, leading to the need to find answers all over again.

By that time, however, most of a person's life is based on what they already know, so trying to find answers again might not only feel anti-productive, but could also feel self-destructive. So when someone tries to prove someone wrong about something that their entire life might be based upon, the instinct is to fight back to prove it to yourself that you are right, else your world might crumble.

That's just an idea though. Maybe its because like the above posters said; maybe we are so worried about ever being right we over look the need for answering our own questions in the desperate struggle to try to change someone's mind.

All in all, I think a lot of arguments are based on a person trying to reaffirm their beliefs on all levels, sometimes with unecessary and/or rude tactics, in hopes that they themselves don't change the mind that took so long to form. Talking about someone's religious outlook then could easily be seen as trying to argue against someone's very existance.

I don't know, just a thought.

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Political arguments do not exist, after all, for people to believe in them, rather they serve as a common, agreed-upon excuse. Foolish people who take them in earnest sooner or later discover inconsistencies in them, begin to protest and finish finally and infamously as heretics.

Jynx

honestly, i've considered it more of an ego issue than anything - yes, some have strongly held beliefs, but my guess is that at the bottom of it are two issues:

1. Fame - we want to be the one responsible for that one breakthrough enlightenment, or at the very least, we want to have the "i won an argument" bragging rights

2. Pack Mentality - most of our lives is governed in some way by an "us vs. them" mentality - our team vs. your team, US vs Iraq, people who like rap vs. everyone else..... while this isn't necessarily bad, you'll also get "team rivalries" about such somber issues as religion.


jynx.account = jynx.account - 0.02

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Truth is independant of Belief.

lurkette

I echo what's been said about people wanting to be right. An opposing view challenges one's conviction that your own viewpoint is the unadulterated truth. I think we as humans tend to have a pretty low tolerance for ambiguity and paradox, and don't like to hang out in the gray area that says "I don't know". So we tend to choose up sides and defend them against attack, or even against the existence of alternatives, even when being open to learning from people with other views would be more productive. I think this is at the root of most of the arguments over in Tilted Politics, as well. Politics is at least 9/10 ideology, almost to the point where liberalism and conservatism have become their own little pseudo-religions. People (and I include myself here) tend to be less interested in what's true or what's effective and more interested in what reinforces their existing view of the world.

I also agree that many people simply find religion fascinating and simply want to discuss it (not necessarily argue about it). We have questions about death and the afterlife, cosmic judgment, what defines living a good life, etc., and people have always looked to religion for answers. Even if I don't necessarily believe all (or any) of what one religion or another has to say about these issues, I still find it fascinating.

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"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

chavos

it is possible to argue on religion in any number of concievable fashions.... the sheer number of possible varients of the arguement almost guarantee that it will be continous once it begins.

Kyo

Listen to this person - very smart.

To be honest, I really don't care what other people think about religion, unless it somehow directly affects me and my ability to live my life in a fashion consistent with my personal values (ie, trying to burn me at the stake or some other similar nonsense). What business of mine is it if someone wants to believe in God? How does that affect me? It doesn't, and I don't care. I argue for the sake of argument, for the sake of being right, and simply because I can. I always like a good debate, even if I end up wrong in the end (though of course, everyone wants to be right).

But no. I don't have any vested interest in convincing anyone of anything, because I don't care what they think. They could all commit mass suicide tomorrow and it wouldn't matter to me in the least.

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Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

Spooky

Years ago when I bought my first car (very used, very nostalgic) I learned a very important lesson: make sure you have a wrench that fits your lugnuts. Naturally, I discovered this the hard way. I had spent somewhere between an eternity and about 10 minutes stripping my lugnuts on the side of the interstate when I was saved by a passing motorist. After the new tire was on he invited me to pull off at the next exit where he owned a little diner for an on-the-house BLT and sweet tea lunch. I politely refused, letting him know it was Ramadan and I was observing the sunrise to sunset fast. His demeanor changed, and he told me that just as he felt obliged out of the goodness of his heart to provide me with the right tools to change my tire he also felt the need to provide me with the right tools for salvation.

The location being in the great state of Georgia, deep south Georgia to be precise, the tool he offered me was Jesus.

And that is precisely why we humans spend so much time debating religon, philosophy, morality etc. It's not so much that we all think we have the right beliefs or drugs or breathing exercises to reach (or disprove) some higher metaphysical state of being, as we think everyone else has the wrong ones. Being the good people that we are we really really hate to see these ingorant people fumbling around stripping the lug nuts of their lives.

In conclusion: Parents, please stop giving your children those toys where they put the differently shaped and colored blocks in the correspondingly shaped holes. You are building in your children strong biased ideas about religion and probably making them racist as well.

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I *heart* miscegenation.

Midnight_Son

huh?

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SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

tecoyah

I think it has to do with ego, I am right and you are not. but because the winner of the debate is saved it takes on an air of desperation. seems to me that by debasing one religion in favor of another, you may be proving just how invalid your own beliefs truly are.

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Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

MacGnG

they taught us to share in school
------> opposing views help to strengthen your own. <-----

ARTelevision

Evidently many people enjoy argument for its own sake.

Evidently many people feel a need to defend their views.

Evidently many people feel a need to disprove the views of others.

People are funny.

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create evolution

rogue49

Sometimes they are arguing to confirm against their own doubts.

Sometimes they are just defining what others don't get.

Eldaire

I don't.

Torinn

Arguing satisfies an urge in people to be affirmed in their beliefs/opinions. It also challenges what we believe and allows us to introduce ourselves to new ideas and test our convictions. Many philosophies include the belief that knowledge is advanced when ideas and the counters of those ideas go into conflict, and a new idea emerges somewhere in between. Thesis vs Antithesis yields deeper truth. I think this may have been an idea from Hegel, but I'm not sure.

carebear

I think people debate religion because God is universally an innate idea (thank you Descartes), and what may appear to be pointless dicussions of the unknowable are simply ways to solidify our own ideas about the perfect, infinite Being that seems to be a part of all our lives.

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go cubs!

water_boy1999

You see, we are talking about two different topics here. Argument and debate. The difference between the two is that agruing usually means both sides are looking to walk away victorious in their ramblings. Debating usually means that both sides are presenting their respective cases and accepting the fact that the opposing side will bring a different perspective to the conversation. With debate, both walk away more enlightened.

In short, people argue about religion because they think their religion is "the" religion.

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Doh!!!!


-Homer Simpson

meembo

"Why do we constantly argue / debate over religion? Why is it so important for others to share our views on these matters?"


We all want to believe that we know at least a little bit about the biggest matters in our lives, and faith and religion guide these hopes personally and socially (respectively). Differences we encounter in other people are jarring, usually because our lives and decisions have so much invested in the beliefs that guide them.
As far as religion goes, I think most of the differences in religion on earth today are clearly anthropomorphic, and reflect a subjective worry in ourselves rather than a world-view. Religion is a personal, subjective law competitive with civil law, with the luxury that we ourselve actually compose our beliefs, rather than having them thrust upon us as in civil law. Our authorship of our beliefs nutures a very healthy confidence in their veracity -- we just know what we know.

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less I say, smarter I am

Mantus

The one line answer is:

Religion is imperfect

The elaboration on why I argue against it is:

There are certain religions that say otherwise. These same religions use the get it cheap and quick method to sell spirituality to humanity. They hold back the human race from a true spiritual awakening and sell our souls short.

Dilbert1234567

becuase im write and your wrong, and i need to help you so that you are right

simple as that

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Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

hahaha

Personally, when I argue or read about religion it is to help me understand it. People think the way they do because of somethin, whether it is the logic behind it or the opinions and beliefs of others. Seeing both sides of an argument about something I believe or do not believe in helps me to formulate an opinion, changing my mind or strengthening my decision.

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"find what's good and make it last"
-Bouncing Souls

MSD

There are two reasons that I think people argue over religion.

1: People don't like to be thought of as being wrong. They will therefore defend their religion to the point of martyrdom.

2: People want to share anything good that they don' thave to give up to give away. By helping others to find God (or to break free of the shackles of religion in the case of some atheists,) they feel that they are doing a favor for the other person by sharing.

yellowgowild

Everyone likes to choose their level of bullshit that they will live at, and people want to make sure that you agree so it makes their bullshit more valid. Simple enough? It's hard to live when you don't know any answers to the biggest questions.

John Henry

In my case, because I genuinely want to know and rational debate, if done without too much ego, although you need some there to fuel the fire, can be a good way to find answers.

If God does exist, I could be in a lot of shit when I die. If he doesn't, I could waste a lot of my life going to church and not sinning.

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"No one was behaving from very Buddhist motives. Then, thought Pigsy, he was hardly a Buddha, nor was he a monkey. Presently, he was a pig spirit changed into a little girl pretending to be a little boy to be offered to a water monster. It was all very simple to a pig spirit."

bparker805

there was a time in my life that i would attack those who follewed thier religion to a tee. but i have come to see the error of my ways and decided to let people have thier religion. who am i to judge anothers belief. i would be pissed at someone doing that to me. the thing that gets to me the most is seeing religous people (not all) not behaving in a moral way when non religious people (not all) behave morally w/o the fear of "god".

Cervantes

We argue about these thing because we have never found an answer that satisfy us 100%. There is always that small fraction of uncertanty that we try to hide away because we like to think that other people think that we have the whole truth and they don't. While in truth we aren't 100% sure ourselves.

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- "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned.."
- "Religions take everything that your DNA naturally wants to do to survive and pro-create and makes it wrong."
- "There is only one absolute truth and that is that there is only one absolute truth."

numist

I don't. I only talk about religion when approached by someone else regarding the subject. When it is brought up, I don't argue nor debate. If the conversation lends itself in that direction I end it, to avoid any problems in the future. Otherwise, I find it rather easy to talk religion, as long as I'm not the target of a conversion attempt.

I'm not sure who is right, so I refuse to argue and defend or attack anyones beliefs, because no one REALLY knows who is right. At least, not until they die, and by then its too late to tell us now isnt it...

Kostya

Well for me anyway, debate is a necessary activity if you even want to hold convictions. In debates, as opposed to fights, people learn from one another, and it forces you to be more responsible and coherent in your views. If you're going to put yoursefl out on the line and believe in something, I think you should test it against other intelligent, educated people first.

It's an essential part of understanding and believing something in my opinion.

Of course, somebody has probably already made this point but my browser is playing up so I just posted a reply.

Moonduck

Number of different scenarios. Some are exclusive, others can cross-pollinate.

1) Religion is the theoretical answer to the only true unknown in our lives - what happens after my life ends.

2) Our cultures, all of them, are based on religious mores, morals, ethics, what have you. Religion permeates the fabric of society and is all around us. On many levels, it is impossible to discuss most anything without having some reference to religion, some concept based off of religion, religious language, or simply based on work by the religious for religious reasons.

3) Religion is neat! Being the basis of the large part of human history, the myths (in the sense of mythic stories, not myth as in false) that underlie up our beliefs are neverendingly fascinating to many people.

4) It is natural to defend one's memes, and religion is generally one of the strongest memes an individual supports. When a meme is challenged by another meme, a test of dominance happens, much in parallel to one organism challenging another for living space.

5) The greatest meme-based conflict of our times is the struggle between the old belief systems encapsulated by the term "religion" and the new belief system encapsulated by the term "science". Science is much like a religion in that it has its' rabid supporters, its' strange rituals (to outsiders, the Scientific Method is a bit arcane), and its' radicals pushing the boundaries of societal acceptance.

6) Many people, like myself, enjoy debate/argument (your flavor may vary).

The reasons behind it are numerous, and I'm sure there's more than the ones I listed. I personally think religion is the most fascinating subject of all, and the most core to our histories, interactions, etc. Then again, I have a degree in Philosophy with a concetration in Religious Studies, so I guess it is natural for me to feel this way.

doodah

i agree wiht mml religion is usuaollly one of the founding things of peoples lives and wheny ou say something diffrent from what theycve learned... its kinda like taking a sledge happemer to the keystone of their life... dont knwo if that made sense but heh what doees

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sometimes.. we all just gotta rock out with our cock out and hang out with our wang out... its just how it is....

Easytiger

Easy. We enjoy debating, and here's a debate that can never be conclusively won. Thank you, come again.

Tman144

I debate because its fun. I like arguing. It makes me think. I only share my views because its really hard to argue if you don't state your point of view. I have even argued for things I don't even believe just for the sake of arguing (especially because I know what arguments they are going to use, try it, its fun).

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"Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

tbc

The problem of conflicting beliefs stems from religions not being able to prove their existence and non-believers not being able to persuade believers that there religion is made up because of nice handy loopholes. A puzzle than can only be solved when you're dead!? No wonder the living haven't sorted it out yet!

The believers don't want to be told their god(s) is made up as it's blasphemous and wrong. The non-believers don't want to be governed by the dogmatic crap.

As for inter religious conflict they're only sticking up for their own people and their way of life, it's a shame but the burden les with whoever created the religions be it some supreme being or some manipulative dictator.

datalink7

Why did you ask this question? Why did you ask "why"?

The reason behind your post and the reason behind the constant argueing is the same. We want to know the "why" of things. You want to know why people argue, the people that argue want to know the why of people with different opinions.

"It's the question that drives us Neo..."

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Ashes and diamons
foe and friend
we are all equal
in the end.

ashap

I think it is a self-validation thing. People want you to believe what they believe to re-inforce/validate their own beliefs. "If you think it too, it must be true."