religions
 

Since religion tends to come up in some threads, whether part of the original post or not, I thought it would be nice to see what everyone thinks of religion. Why do you hate it? why do you like it? Are religious/what religion are you? Things like that.

I myself used to be Christian, but I gave it up because of the people in the church and I didn't have a real steady relationship with God. Since then, I have been studying Wiccan and Buddism. I don't neccessarily hate Christians, or any other religion for that matter. I hate the people in the religion that are self rightous (bad spelling habits) and think that anyone that doesn't believe the way they do, they will go to hell or their sould will be tortured for all eternity. I don't mean to pick on Christians in general and no offense to the ones here that are, but most Christians that have come up to me and asked me if I believe in God and then tell me I'm going to hell because I don't, I have a problem with them. But I have also been demeaned and cursed for being Christian when I was.

Religion isn't as hunky dory as some people make it out to be. I sometimes wonder if the world would be better without religion.

i hate religion, but i'm pretty open minded.
i dont hate people that practice it (although deep inside i think they're all stupid)

all religion has brought to this world is intolerance and bloodshed.

a shitload of people have died in the name of religion

this quote describes my well

"" [God] is the creation of ignorant and frightened humans in need of explanation to the fundamental quagmire of their existance."

and i'm not ignorant or frightened.

anyway, i dont hate anyone that practice religion. it's your life and you have the right do whatever you want w/ it and i dont think me or anybody else has the right to tell u what to do.

i don't like religion because anyone could have made it up back in the day. people were retarded as far as being aware of their surroundings and i see no reason to follow what they believed.

i also don't like religion because it makes people followers instead of leaders. So instead of having a country full of people that contribute to the advancement of society, we have a country full of sheep.

i hate the fact that a _lot_ of evil is done in religions name. but if religion didn't exist, people would create another name to control people under.

I am a maverick christian. my ego tells me to title myself as a Real Christian. I have only found one church , ever, that believes most of what i believe. Baptist/methodist/catholic/lutheran/ church of god/ asymbly of god..... i can't fly with them.

anybody who's more prepared to teach you about torment and hellfire should stay away from you. Yes, there is punishment, but Jesus is a great d00d. he is the ultimate peace hippy. I love him for it, too.

keep your minds open and have fun :)

I assume you mean organized religion as opposed to simple spirtuality.

Religion has been one of the major forces for good (and evil) on the planet and this should surprise no one since it is composed of people trying to figure out what to believe about God. While doing this, all the good and bad that we have in us has found outlets. There have been noble sacrifices and hideous massacres done in the name of religion (even Buddhists).

Now, the question is, do you blame God and the idea of gathering people to worship Him/Her or do you blame the people who mess it up? Or in my mind, do you throw the baby out with the bath water?

Remember, some of the worst atrocities of the 20th century were performed by individuals and governments who specifically disavowed religion, so you can't claim it is 'religion' or 'God' that drives us to murder, slaughter, and generally be nasty to each other.

I like religion in general. It has some amazing concepts and has inspired people to do some amazing and beautiful things. Most religions seem to be comforting and useful forms of philosophy for their believers.
However, obviously, many people use them for the wrong reasons, but I like to think they're usually misunderstanding what the religion is all about.
I personally am an atheist... but that has nothing to do with disliking religion, just with not being able to believe in a god at all.

I'm a christian.. but i go to an assembly of god chruch.. does that make me an assembly of god person .. in my mind no.. they hold closest to what i belive in but... I hate all major religious sects... why

they are wrong.. you are to go out in to the world as a christian and teach the word to all. not sit in a pew ...

and above mentiond several times.. about different ways to view christanity... take for instance..

the fact in my small town there are almost 16 baptist chruches... one assembly of god .. now you do the math.. how many baptists see the word of god different

AG is a cult. Until you figure that out, you are doomed to lead a co-dependant, miserable existance.

Whoops - that wasn't very tolerant of someone else's views. Well I am not going to erase it since that would not be tolerant of my view.....

Let's just say that The_Dude and I share a very similar viewpoint on religion as I read above. I hope you can break free and oh yeah - the TFP is a sin.

I'm agnostic. I've studied many religions throughout my life but I never stuck to one. I took the good teachings from each and applied them to my life. I've come to the conclusion that I will never have a religion because religion is a human construct. I don't believe one religion is right or more right than the other. I believe religion should be personal and be kept to yourself and not be used in influencing government and society nor infringe on other's rights. I don't like evangelism. It's no more than western imperialism trying to take over the world. It destroys cultures. Other than that, I don't have much of problem with religion as long as you don't shove it in my face or infringe on my rights.

Mondak,

I don't see anyone here pissing on what you believe, I would appreciate the same courtesy from you.

Mondak,

Your views are fine, EXCEPT that you worded them in a way that was derogatory and unnecessarily rude towards others. Ones own personal beliefs are sacred, and are not to be discussed in such a manner.

If you care to give your thoughts in an intelligent manner, please feel free to do so, otherwise just pass by these types of threads.

I wouldn't want anybody to call your beliefs, whatever they might be, to be a cult like activity. Nor would I want that to happen to others in here.

Hopefully anybody continuing in this thread can do this as well.

what labell said.

you can explain your views without a large
ammount of animosity and dirt throwing.

My religion lies within my own heart. I do not attend any church meetings and I feel no desire to do so. I am a spiritual person with a deep faith in my God.

I'm Catholic.

I've found that many people who call themselves religious distrust the Catholic church. Which usually leads to interesting conversations, where the Christian at the table and the non-believer find common ground against the Catholic church. :)

Lets see - why do I like it? Its a place where you can go, not just once a week but at any time, and find common ground with alot of different people. Its a safe place to bring up young children, with many very good values instilled. Finally, and I'm sure alot of you are going to insert your own joke here, but Catholic priests are very amazing individuals. Many have literally thousands of parishoners - and they are wonderfully understanding, energetic, and helpful. Ever REALLY struggled with something? Try having a guy around who really cares about guiding you (its his job) and is absolutely sworn to secrecy.

Frankly, I'm a little surprised when I see religious topics on TFP. I respect all opinions, but opening up a religious thread tends to invite some *interesting* responses.

I take the stance that since no religion can be proven (beyond pre-planned responses to questions that have been asked since religion's beginning, which make conversations with preachers extremely frustrating), I simply won't choose one.

Chances are, when we have a definitive answer to the universe, we still won't be able to wrap our heads around it, so don't bog yourself down with specifics. Just try to live a good life, a life that does something to contribute to the advancement of the human race.

This kind of statement gives atheists a bad name (although most atheists I've met hold this belief). A person searching for a deeper meaning in life is not a stupid one. A person who completely rules out all religion because the organizations are fucked may be. Don't claim intellectual superiority simply because you have ruled out religion from your universe.

maybe stupid was not the best word of choice.

i just dont see how anyone can believe in something supernatural when they have all this scientific facts pointed against them.

i cant descrbe the feeling in one word, "ignorant" partly gets it done.

The_Dude,

What scientific facts point against the existance of God?

Don't be afraid I'll not understand the science behind your facts. I only went to an engineering school for 3 years and worked in analytical chemistry for 5 years.

i really dont think i'm qualified enough to argue w/ you. (still in high school and suck @ science)

how can they live their lives around something that happened thousands of years ago? they're putting an awful lot of faith on a piece of paper that somebody wrote.

I was raised Catholic and as I grew older I struggled with how I felt about religion. I am a scientist at heart and I really am not superstitious at all. Still, I found comfort with religion in many ways, some shallow and some deep. I always figured that someday I would have kids (I am begining to wonder about that now) and I could not imagine raising children without some formal ethical framework. I know people who have done it, but it seems like a daunting task.

I believe that the official teachings of the Catholic Church as they exist today (not all the misunderstandings that one hears from Catholics and non-Catholics alike) make up a self-consistant set of ethics. I can go to church in a country where I do not speak the language and feel instantly at home. My religion is as important to me culturally as it is philosophically.

I don't believe that I have all the answers or that I have been given a secret hall pass from God because I belong to a certain church. I simply know that it works for me, and a lot of other people. I am not threatened by other religions or atheism.

I don't believe that I am stupid or weak for feeling this way. I feel I have come to these conclusions after a great deal of thought and I have been intellectually honest withmyself.

The_Dude,

Fortunately, I CAN address the science.

Science is not concerned with God, either to prove or to disprove. Science is concerned with explaining the workings of nature in an observable fashion using experiments that produce repeatable results.

In other words, science is concerned with the "how's" of nature, whereas religion is concerned with the why's.

Since you mention "two thousand years ago", I will make the leap and assume you are talking about Christianity. Well, I happen to call myself such, but I don't believe there was an Adam or an Eve. Surprised? Don't be. It is relatively easy for me and millions of other Christians to seemlessly integrate what we believe through religion with what we know through science.

I also won't be pronouncing that you are going to Hell for not believing as I believe. I believe what I do for my own reasons and everyone has to come to their own reasons.

If you have specific questions about 'something written two thousand years ago', I have more than a passing knowledge of the subject, including who actually wrote what, and why we think so. I can also answer why I believe as I do, but as to others, they will have to answer for themselves.

Many people take comfort in the ideas expressed on the paper, and it makes sense to them. I don't understand the whole Bible thing either, but to call someone ignorant for believing in it is a bit of a stretch and a little arrogant. Most Christians I've met that are knowledgable about their faith argue that the Bible is more of a collection of stories that illustrate the basic principles of the religion, with some history mixed in. Then again, some of them believe that the Bible is a factual account of history.

Furthermore, science doesn't exactly disprove religion, in fact it works with it, depending on your interpretation of the sciences. For example, many Christians have developed the idea that the story of Adam and Eve was a symbolic story rather than an actual event, and that evolution was put into place and controlled by God as part of his plan. Still others stick to the idea that evolution doesn't exist.

I don't believe that anyone is stupid or ignorant because of their beliefs, as long as they are following basic tenets of society (don't kill/steal/make anyone else miserable) and help society in general.

The most important thing we do here is not using the site as a platform for our personal views but learning how to share our views with others of different mindsets.

That's a bit of a stretch for all of us, I know. That's the point.
It's easy to just lose your head and type out a rant.
It takes some effort to weigh your views against others with different views and to acknowledge their value even though you may strongly disagree.

Threads like this are good for learning these lessons. Watching them evolve, veer toward unacceptability, get nudged back toward increasing respect for others - that's why we are here.

We're here to learn about ourselves and to improve ourselves through dialog.

Very very true, Art.

Thanks for the reminder.

Good points fellows - here is try number 2:

Searching for meaning can't really be considered a bad thing. I just tend to be frustrated by folks who look in the wrong places for meaning and don't usually express myself effectivly.

I tend to turn to nature and relationships with others to sort things out and not any kind of religion. Seems to me these things can be more reliable and can teach us far more lessons than what religion has to offer. I have seen very few if any positive outcomes and healthy relationships that are rooted in religion.

As far as the stupid thing is concerned, following anything without question seems pretty stupid and ignorant in any situation. Exploring other possible options can pay very nice dividends for anyone.

So far we've had Christians, atheists and agnostics. Are there any members of other religions here?

Assumption #1)

Other people are looking in the "wrong places for meaning".

Assumption #2)

Other people are following their beliefs "without question".

Care to try a third time?

Ok - now we are getting picky. It is not like I said that EVERYONE was looking in the wrong place, but SOMEONE has to be and those are the folks that tend to frustrate me.

The second point is the same way. We are not working with absolutes here. There are lots of mindless dopes in this world who follow their beliefs without question. When this happens we get planes in the sides of towers and people being thrown in ovens. Not good. Is everyone a mindless dope? no

I'm sorry, I can't read your mind.

You said,

"I just tend to be frustrated by folks who look in the wrong places for meaning"

and

"As far as the stupid thing is concerned, following anything without question seems pretty stupid and ignorant in any situation."

While I actually agree with your explanation once given, if that is what you mean, then you should say so. Otherwise, I can only infer that you mean everyone, including the posters in a thread you entered.

Let me tell you a little something about God...


God likes to watch.

Ok John Milton ;)

Lebell,
forgive me for being curious... but how do you see the worlds creation?

btw, i've noticed that things are quite heated in here...this is not intended to be provocative.

Lebell skirted on a point that I think is important. I have undergraduate degrees in both biology and chemistry as well as an MD. I view the world through the eyes of a scientist. I take lessons from thermodynamics to understand thought patterns and personal interactions and societal trends. (Maybe Harry Seldon has a point) Darwin's work is at the very center of my world view. I see absolutely no conflict between any of this and being a practicing member of the Catholic Church.

I believe that any conflict between religion and science is a percieved one that is based on a misunderstanding of either science or religion or both.

Science deals with things that CAN be known. Religion deals with things that CANNOT be known and can only be understood through faith and philosophical thought. Scientists overstep their bounds when they make statements about the lack of God. The absence of proof of his existence is not a convincing argument. Religious authorities get into trouble when they talk about things that can be known, but are not yet understood.

A good example would be the Catholic Church before Galileo. The Church stated that all we needed to know could be learned through philosophy, and Aristotle's writings were accepted and not open to discussion. For some reason, it was heresy to disagree with this Greek pagen who died hundreds of years before Christ. Along came Galileo who said, why don't we just do a little experiment. Lo and behold, the eyes that God gave him provided proof that gravity causes equal acceleration to all objects, regardless of mass. For this and other findings, he was excomunicated. The Church learned from this, and 500 years later, they officially overturned that.

As long as science and religion understand their respective roles, then they can avoid conflict. Then both are necessary to understanding our world, ourselves, and our role in our world.

The Oxford bible defines a cult as-- any belief or religion that claims to be the ONLY way to get to heaven. there are many paths
I believe a persons life and actions will be weighed in the balance.
As for my religion I call it (my real name)ism
I was raised christion so my basic social nature is christion
My spirtual beliefs are pagan as in earth children, american indian
I believe all things were created by a group of ......(gods, people aliens?) whatever they were.
the leader of the group has been refered to as god ala zues rah and many other names.
the rest of the group also had rank early religions held them as gods, lesser gods, demi gods.
modern religions now refer to them as angels and demons.
the most important rules to me are:
do unto others as you'd have them do unto you
karma

Well thats the basic jist of it

I have a problem with the above and the christian definition of a "god".

They claim god is good, and loving, and at the same time claim he is unknowable. This raises a conflict that if god is unknowable by us humans how can we know he is good, etc.?

maybe someday i'll post how i actually feel about religion, just not today.

"The World is my country and Science is my religion."

all scientific facts might point against the supernatural, or maybe we just don't have anything that can test/detect it yet? just cause we can't see it doesn't mean it's not there (ex. x-rays). although i'm anti-religion and don't believe in god, i accept that i definatly could be wrong, that there is one, we just are unable to detect him (and having a "feeling" about god doesn't count, i hate when people say "i can just feel him" when asked why they believe).

i'm a jew by birth, although i don't beleive at all. i consider my self to be an atheist/agnostic (somewhere in between), but many jews would consider me to be a secular jew just by the fact my mother is jewish and i had a bris and bar mitzvah.

Bundy,

No, that isn't provocative at all. It is simply that I don't like anyone making sweeping pronouncements and statements of fact when the truth is that we don't know. And then pointing at others and calling them "ignorant" or "stupid", well...

But to answer your question, I am pretty much lock step with greytone above. I am a scientist by training and I believe science is how to describe the origins of the universe. Our current, best theory is that there was an event we term "The Big Bang" followed by expansion and eventual development of stars and solar systems. In turn, life started on our own ball of rock and evolved into what it is now.

There is no conflict between my faith and my understanding of science. I personally am saddened that there is a large portion of Christians who cannot see this, but I do not believe they are in the majority.

Perhaps more importantly, so long as they follow the teachings of Jesus, such as "Love your neighbor as yourself", it really doesn't matter.

I don't care about religion, but I don't have problems with others believing

I did not mean that God could not be known as you know a person. I meant that He exists beyond the universe He created and proof of his existance is not within the realm of science, which after all, is the study of his creation. I believe that God is the ulimate creator of the universe and that His greatest gifts to us are the consistant and predictible laws of science and our intellect to discover and then use them. His existance is for matter of faith, not knowledge. Certainly we can come to know Him through studying His creation (science) and through prayer.

re·li·gion

• Belief in and reverence for a supernatural power or powers regarded as creator and governor of the universe.
  A personal or institutionalized system grounded in such belief and worship.
  The life or condition of a person in a religious order.
  A set of beliefs, values, and practices based on the teachings of a spiritual leader.
  A cause, principle, or activity pursued with zeal or conscientious devotion.

I think that the last one can encompass your state of nature. Wiccans/Celtics and a number of other religions/belief models follow nature. Thus you it is not to far a stretch to say you are religious. Maybe not in traditional ones like Christianity, Hinduism, Islam...but still it is a belief model.

Personally I don't believe in a God (or Gods).

I see religion as the way we as humans have managed to create meaning to death and life. Two entirely unknowable factors in human experience.

The rest of it is simply there to control our natural impulses through guilt and submission to high authortity.

I've always thought that instead of a Kingdom of Heaven where God rules, what we really need is a Republic of Heaven...

Level hirearchy and no rules dictated from above.

Question:

Who claimed God is unknowable?

I don't like religions trying to force beliefs on other people. At my University the Christian groups put signs up that practically insult anyone that is not a Christian and tell them they should be. They chalk the walks and take up 10x more space than any other groups do, religious or not. None of the other religous groups do this. I realize some of them do it because they are trying to help and I know not all Christians do it, but it's incredibly annoying to me. I just wish they would be more accepting and take a no.

I don't think it is possible for theists and atheists to have a rationale, logical discussion, without stepping on eachother's toes. I also think that theism and science are fundamentally opposed. Science operates on standards of logic and evidence. Theism operates on faith despite a lack of evidence.

I didn’t consider myself religious of any sense until I started practicing martial arts. Well, maybe not religious, but at least I have an idea of what I consider the divine. I discussed the idea of god and the divine with a close friend of mine, who introduced me to martial arts and introduced me to new and interesting ways of thinking, Taoism, Zen and other philosophies from the Far East. We both developed the same idea of what God might be, or at least from our point of views.

If God is divine and I am allowed to personally accept what is divine to me then I believe in God. But if God is defined as something/someone static, i.e. divinity as a static character or trait (ex. Through a scripture or authority), then I’ll have trouble believing in that God.
So, basically… If God is divine then I believe.
If God is good, bad, creator, destroyer, all knowing, merciful, or anything you define or describe then I don’t believe.

I also tend to think that fact cannot deny faith. Because no matter what you believe in, either it’s a person, a spirit, a book or a science, no one can take that away from you and no one can state a fact that will ultimately deny your faith. No one can simply say, “you don’t believe” and then expect you to not believe. It would deny the basis that we actually think.
Believe whatever you want to believe, but in the end you believe something. Because you will evidently say “but I believe/think this and that…” at some time or another.

btw, i'm a hindu by birth and i practice the principles in moderation.

and i dont like people that say "i'm right and you're wrong"

interesting.... I know two atheists in particuliar that are very nice, blunt, and rational..... and not rude when discussing religion with me.

logic does not have to be rude.

but what y'all believe directly contradicts each other.

religion is based on faith - believing in something w/o proof
science is mostly based on facts - the hardcore proof.

The_Dude,

What you say is correct. But that doesn't mean that dialogue cannot be respectful.

Here is my take on religion. I have trouble believing in a god that must be feared or that will punish us for our sins. If we were made in gods image, then he is just as fucked up as the rest of us. If so, then he/she will probably love us anyway.

My opinion of organized religion is that most were created long ago for means of controlling the poor, uneducated masses. It worked well for thousands of years. But if poeple today find direction and meaning from it, more power to them.

I only have a problem with the "Pushers". I have respect for most other people and their beliefs. If someone tells me I am going to hell because I don't repent, read the Bible or go to church, they pretty much automatically lose any respect that I would have given them.

I had to quote this. I just wish there were more people that understood this - science and religion exist for different purposes.

I personally have no problem against any spiritual views or religions but they have absolutely no place in government, or law.

For the record I am a 'weak atheist'/agnostic, I don't believe God doesn't exist, I simply lack any belief in the existance of any gods.

my feelings about religion are so personal - they don't really form an "objective" view.

It's a strong personal bias, so I state that in front.

I learned about religion from nuns, back in a day when they were medieval torturers - mental and physical.

They were the most joyless, screwed up, dysfunctional, cruel and perverse beings I have ever encountered. They still hold my lifetime record for that.

Besides constant nasty harping, they routinely hit us about the head, threw things at us, made us kneel for hours in front of statues of mary with our hands outstretched or between our knees and the floor.

You don't want to hear what I think of religion...

Sorry Art :(

I've got some nun stories too, nothing overly saddistic, but unpleasant nontheless.

My greatgranddad swore the priest molested him as a young boy, but who believed such things back in the early 1900's?

Hi!

I'm a Roman Catholic on paper, allthough I never really believed in God or any supernatural being. I have always been reluctant to officially leave the Church - im an Austrian, so maybe Catholicism is in my bones or something.

For me being a Christian is more a matter of philosophy than religion. I am convinced the world would be much better a place if everyone lived by the rules that Jesus taught his followers. I try to share what I have, I accept others the way they are, I commit myself for what I think is right. I try to be a good person and the New Testament gives me a set of rules on how to do that.

If other people need some incentive (i.e. eternal live in heaven) to do the right things, thats okay by me, though I suspect its just wishfull thinking. Nonetheless I'll be pleasantly surprised if it all turns out to be true.

So I guess I'm a confused catholic agnostic. Shoot me.

Thanks for letting me get that off my chest.
That being said,
One of my majors as an undergrad was religion! (the other was physics).
I would have majored in philosophy but I had already read the history of philosophy on my own and the dept. was substandard so I took religion. I'm vastly interested in philosophy and see religion as philosophy when studied from without. I just eschew as many "beliefs" as possible - I have always been this way.
So - I'm interested in religion as philisophy but not as a system of personal belief for myself. It's not the only system of personal belief by a long shot. It looks to me like most humans can't exist without a bunch of beliefs - which for me are unnecessary...

Religion = Escapism for people who can't deal with reailty.

"Religion is the opiut of the people" -- If I told you who I just quoted, you'd ignore what I've just said an hail me a communist spy like any Uncle Sam-loving American would *big sigh*

that, ladies and gentlemen is Karl Marx.

It's in his doctrine.

Read Das Kapital if you're interested. Quite frankly a Marxist/Communist system just wouldn't work anyway, Ideally, In a perfect world, It would, but as long as there's still currency/commodities, theres still greed, and as long as there's greed, there's corruption, and as long as there's corruption, our little ideal Utopian society will never happen.

i never said i dont respect them or i dont have a good conversation w/ them.

i do have pretty decent converstions w/ my friends about this stuff, but i question them on the inside.

My problem is the values that christianity push are not necessarily any better morally - if we all had to observe christian ethics there would be no homosexuality, sex before marriage, and a whole slew of other things that are only bad because 'God said so' (or were quite possibly added in by the Church at some point) - this can lead many people to the wrong conclusions about things, example being 'that homosexuals are bad people'

There may be another religion without the gratuitious values but still promotion of kindness as the 'be a good person' mantra is certainly not unique to christianity. Although it would be nice if everyone was kind and considerate to one another, it is unrealistic - it would never happen even if religion was universal. Many people are just naturally self-orientated.

I think religion is only a personal weakness if people believe they have no reason to live without it, or that is alright to kill/rape/torture if they won't be eternally punished, or if they will only do kind things because of the lure of an eternal reward. It is certainly not running away from the "truth" (that we live in a materialistic world, also please note the quotation marks) - it is quite possible that we don't and will never be able to figure out the metaphysical truth to the universe to know for sure.

$0.02

values so quickly change into rules... welcome to the roman catholic church :P

No man hath seen God at any time (John 1:18)

No man can see God and live (Ex. 33:20).

God is great, and we know him not (Job 36:26).


I also suggest this website to everyone:

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/

and carrying on from what sivo said, i've recently had an extremely strange experiance, one you may describe as meta physical, it's a long story, but cut extremely short, a woman who's been through so much bad has still come out on top, myself and her other close friends label her a miracle, she's been through so much and asks nothing in return, her best friend even describes her as an angel, i dont know anymore

up until 5 days ago i was a through and through athiest, i lived my life, and my life was governed by the law of physics, science and logic, however what i experianced a few days ago defies all that i've been taught to beleive in.

im leaving alot out here, as it's 4:30am, but she touched me, not physically, or emotionally, but what you'd describe as metaphysically.

i felt her in my chest and probing my mind, it was an amazing experiance, and then she squeezed my heart, i nearly passed out due to the rush of blood, it felt like exactly how you'd imagine somebody squeezing your heart with their hand, except for the fact there was no pain.

she was worried the minute she "saw" inside my chest, and she started to plead for me to loose some weight (im 26stone, that's around 360lbs)

she showed me where the blockages were by almost "plucking" my veins, she also plucked the face of my heart (the side facing my ribs) - where people have heart bypass operations...

that part of it was quite painful, more painful than any bout of angina i'd felt in the past (self diagnosis, but seems the most logical).

and then she called in her best friend, for reasons in her past she could never do anything other than "show" other people, especially people she cares greatly about (basically, she nearly killed somebody through complete hatred, but again, long story).

when her best friend came in, it was a most curious sensation, cold, stone cold, he entered my chest and... wow... i can still recall the feeling vividly, it was like my entire chest was flooded with ice, extremely cold, and then the next thing i know im practically on the floor after he went for my heart, i was scared out of my mind, i trust the guy, but not half as much as her, i didnt know what was going on, my heart was racing, my chest was cold....

she pulled him out in a rush... he'd healed me. he has but 1/100th of the power she has, but he still managed to heal me, since then i've been doing things i havent been able to do in years, now, obviously alot of its psychological, but i havent had a bout of the self diagnosed angina doing things that would normally give me it. i dont know what this whole things about, and why she chose me to share her gift with (she's only shared it with 3 people in her life, including me)

but i know theres something not normal about her.... i cant bring myself to say that she's an angel or a saint, i simply cant, but her best friend believes she is, i know one thing, she's got a gift, and a big one at that, she managed to keep herself alive using her gift for 45mins after her heart had stopped beating, honest to god, her medical records prove it.

and then the next night came along....

she didnt warn me this time, she just "came in"

she filled my chest with warmth again, more than the last nights (ill get onto that in a minute), then, a most bewildering feeling, i felt everything in my chest "move", it's extremely hard to describe, its almost asif everything was pushed to the walls of the chest cavity to make room, and then it came... my heart was pounding wildly, i honestly thought i was having a heart attack, it was an extremely fast beat, if you imagine the normal beep: .....beep......beep......beep....... then mine was beepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeepbeep

i was so worried, but then, i listened
it wasnt my heart atall, or rather, it was a second heart. she'd sent me her heart beat. i cant explain it... it felt like i had 2 hearts, i could feel it beating in my chest just like my one, both pumping, each one so loudly i hear it as my 1 heart just going full pelt, but it was amazing, my whole body filled with her.... energy... i can only explain it as that... i was warm all over, but it was hotter than any fire, hotter than any molten steel at a steel works factory, it was the most intense heat you could feel, but it didnt hurt, not at all, and i wasnt perspiring, it was overwhelming, it consumed me, for 6 hours, i was in this bubble of warm listening to her heart beat with mine, it was bliss, it was this pure feeling of bliss. i dont know how to describe it, all my troubles just vanished, everything just seemed to "stop meaning anything" for those 6 hours, i didnt have a care in the world, it was amazing...

this is all i can say so far, as that was 2 nights ago (including this evening)

it's a whole new level of intimacy i experianced with an extremely close friend who means more to me than anything in this world, and who i care about with all my heart (not in any romantic way, we're just extremely close friends)

i still dont see why i deserve this honour.... im not different than the adverage joe, infact i consider myself less, i've done quite a few bad things in my life, certainly things that wouldnt get me into "heaven", but i dont know now

it's like i know nothing anymore, the universe is suddenly so much bigger, and i keep asking these questions, i cant think of anything else but that of what happend to me, it's rather disturbing, i've even found myself questioning my sanity (something i could never wish upon anybody, a most disturbing feeling).

but, i think im still sane, she's lived with it for 20 years, and so has her best friend, why does suddenly finding out make me want to bring everything in life to a hault so i can re-evaluate reality??

i just dont know anymore...

Sometimes, the cynic in me thinks that the world would be a better place without organized religion. The religious groups do a lot of good things... but they also do quite a few bad things in the name of religion. Just think of all the wars that have taken place in the name of religion. Organized religion can also lead to ignorance. It disturbs me when I hear that some places in the south do not teach evolution. I don't care if they do not agree with it, but it is currently the accepted scientific belief, and not teaching it to students only hurts the students. It is possible to still be religious, yet believe in evolution, and other things strongly backed by science.

I don't see science as disproving supernatural things. Everything I've learned in my science classes has made sense, and I accept as truth. However, I've also seen things that don't really have any sort of scientific proof. I have seen a girl forced down onto her knees, unable to walk any closer to a cross. This was a rather extreme scenario, which I cannot really describe, but it happened in one of the holiest places I have ever been. I honestly do not think she was faking this. Also, I wonder what the scientific proof would be for PataQ's experience. Sometimes people attempt to use science to make sense of something, but it doesn't work. I don't see this as disproving anything, rather I see it as more proof to the existence of the supernatural.

The whole idea behind most religions is faith. Faith works without scientific proof, so calling someone ignorant or foolish because they believe in something that cannot be proven is doing them a great injustice. Do you love someone? How can that be proven, scientifically? To my knowledge, it cannot. But I do not question that love still exists. Does this make me ignorant, or stupid?

I am not really sure of my own beliefs at this point in my life. By name, I am a United Methodist. However, I am not sure if I really believe everything that goes along with Methodism.

My beliefs, such as they are, seem to be pretty close to Alpha Phi's. I think there is some higher being/power, and I suspect it is the same as the one in most religions around the world, whether it is called God, Allah, or any other name. Any underlings are what would be called in the Christian faith angels, and possibly devils or demons. I think treating other people well and helping those in need is more important than what religion you put yourself under.

I respect those with strong faith, in some ways I envy them, as they have found something, a belief in something, that I have not. However, when I see faith cloud rationality, that is when I am afraid, because irrational actions in the name of faith tend to be some of the worst actions ever done in history.

If you're gonna quote the Book, you should crack it open and read it for yourself. ;)

Now for the whole verse:

No one has ever seen God. It is God the only Son who is close to the Father's heart who has made him known. (John 1:18)

First, I must say it's refreshing to see a serious discussion of religion here that hasn't gotten too out of hand. Regardless of their beliefs people have a tendency to get very defensive when this type of discussion comes up, as well they should (just like politics, but that's another discussion).

Personally, I don't really follow any particular religion, thought like several of you involved in this discussion I do have my own beliefs. But, in an effort to stay brief, I would have to say that I do not hold it against anyone or think them "inferior" for whatever they may believe. I fact, I feel very strongly that everyone must have faith in something. But, what bothers me most is when others try to push thier beliefs on others. And this holds true on both a personal level and also on a much larger scale. Living in the US we have seen a backlash recently against people who hold true to the tenets of Islam, and we have seen the actions of a president openly displaying his Christian beliefs in an attempt to, in part, sway public opinion. Far too often throughout history religion has been used as a tool, and the word of God (whatever God that may be) has been bastardized for political or economic gain.

In my opinion, religion should be an internal thing. A frame upon which ones builds their manners, attitudes, actions, etc.

Jadey: yeah I think you're right..


btw the girl i was talking about beleives in a higher power, and tha things happen for a reason, gotta run, customer just wlaked in the door!

Now, I have yet to meet a christian who has "read" the christian Book for hisself, much less the Books of other religions to know for certain he is in the right line to "salvation."

But thank you for posting the whole line...So is anyone here the supposed son of god? Oh alright. ;) ;)

Pleased to meet ya :D

I'm not entirely sure what "salvation" is, or if Christianity is the only road to it, I just know what works for me.

Hey man, you're the one who started throwing around Bible verses. And yes, the Son's and Daughters of God are very much present, if you just open your eyes ;)

Where is God?

-Brother Theophane

Organized religion blows goats. It causes more wars and hardship than anything else. I am religious but do not subscribe whole heartedly to any one religion.

Pleased to hear it; a christian knowing what christianity is about, hopefully.



Agreed, and that's how it should be.

Well, I'm not a missionary, if that's what you're suggesting.

You asked "who said god is unknowable" and I did a little research and posted what you should have already known.


The Christian faces this dilemma: if he wishes to retain the notion of a supernatural being, he must insist that god's nature is incomprehensible. On the other hand, if the Christian wishes to escape the plight of agnosticism-which he must to give meaning to the concept of god.

The National Christian Almanac offers a list of properties of god: god is almighty, eternal, holy, immortal, incomprehensible , just, loving, omnipotent, omnipresent, ...

--George H. Smith
:confused:

No, that's not what I'm suggesting.

DUDE!

Quite worrying about quoting OTHER people! What do YOU think??

Also, incomprehensible and unknowable are two different things. ;)

Is it so terrible to quote someone else? Oh i don't think all these bibles would have been written if it was "quite worrying" to quote others.


.
Shoot, I don't mean to be quoting someone else AGAIN, but I cannot help it.

in·com·pre·hen·si·ble:

Difficult or impossible to understand or comprehend; unintelligible: incomprehensible jargon.
Impossible to know or fathom: incomprehensible mysteries.

un·know·a·ble:

Impossible to know, especially being beyond the range of human experience or understanding: the unknowable mysteries of life


That aside, being unable to comprehend would lead to the loss of all the properties associated with the monotheistic god.

Moreover, being unable to know is a derivative of the above.

Your answers to your questions are in your own words, if you just look.

Good luck :)

I'm not a follower of it, but I've been studying various religions lately and I find Gnosticism (not to be confused with agnostics) fascinating.

Gnosticism is an offshoot of Christianity that believes that the God of the Old Testament, the creator of the physical universe as we know it, is not the True God. They believe that this creator was a flawed being itself, thus why the universe is flawed (i.e. all life must consume other life to survive, hence death and suffering are universal).

They also believe that the God in the New Testament is the True God, and that Jesus was sent to show us how to transcend this existence and eventually move on to the next level.

I've probably completely butchered the explanation :), so there is a better one here: http://www.gnosis.org/gnintro.htm

Really interesting stuff; definitely a different perspective than most religions.

Obviously one has to distinguish between "original" Christian Values and the teachings of the Catholic Church. I think Jesus, the way he is portraied in the New Testament, was an exceptional human-being (or more than that, i dont know) and his thoughts and teachings on "how to be good" are still valid and always will be.

The Catholic as well as the Orthodox churches merit is to have spread these values all over the world and to have preserved them through the centuries. Unfortunately they came up with such things as the crusades and more recently the "impeccability" of the pope (had to look that one up, not sure if I got it right). I wonder if John Paul II has any idea how many children died of AIDS because of his ban on contraception, and if he sleeps well.

Yes, but that shouldnt keep the rest of us from trying to do the right things, should it? Many early Christians have gone to quite some lengths to make that point.


Hm... I guess I have to agree. Actually I tend to believe early religions and cults might have been a way for priests/chieftains to gain some extra authority and power over their people ("kiss my ass or got to hell" :-)

So what if Jesus, Mohammed & the other guys did the same thing? Did they make up all the stuff about God and the afterlive , so their personal value-systems and philosophies would have some chance to gain followers and momentum?

I think I'll make that my official theory concerning the origin of religion from now on. Either that or aliens.

I am an atheist. Don't believe in god, don't believe in organized religion of any sort. Religion seems more like a cult to me than anything else.

"Religion is a cage made from other men's thoughts." --Duane Alan Hahn

At one point in my life, I loved debating religion. Nothing pleased me more than upsetting my fundamentalist friends by denouncing everything they believed in and grinning while they professed sadness at the loss of my soul. We'd do this at least once a week.

I did not believe in god. I still don't. How I'm different now is that I don't much enjoy discussing it anymore. Not that I've become apathetic towards the discussion, I've just lost the interest in debating a circular issue, one with no beginning and no end.

I've lost my contempt for Christians and others who believe in a supreme being. I no longer hate religion, I just don't agree with it.

However, what I do continue to detest is the hypocrisy of many of our nation's "moral" leaders, i.e. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and their ilk.

I will never tire of denouncing them. But it's not their religion I'm denouncing; it's their lack of any spiritual foundation for their morality. They use religion as their weapon to attack that which they personally do not like and make the claim they speak for Christians when they do so. This is what I despise.

I believe that these are the very people who have made religion such a sore subject for many people.

I feel as though I've taken the thread on a tangent. My apologies if I have.

Definately not a religious person... just things that are proven fact in science that are not believed in certain religions keeps me from having any interest

Religion: Who/what do you believe in?
 

Who is your God?

The earth is a big place. There are many people, cultures and societies with different beliefs in God, religion and spirituality.

What do you (or don't) believe in?

Jumpin Jesus... that is fairly close to how I feel these days (although I still take pleasure in the debate from time to time)...

I was raised Catholic by my parents, but never really agreed with how the chirch went about things. It totally turned me off to all religions. After talking to some people, and reading about it online, the Unitarian church is probably the closest thing I have found to my own personal beliefs.

Taken fron http://www.uua.org

Religion to me is a crock...

So many people take their preachers interperations of "God" as the end all answer. And now a-day's there is so much comercialization around Jesus and Christianity I just can't take it. (same might be true for other religions, but i haven't seen it around where i live...)

It even says in the bible (or so im told, i haven't read it... i feel i should but certin people turn me off from it by preaching to me when i dont want to be preached at) that you shall not idolize images of jesus, or the cross, and stuff like that. Yet people still do! isn't it supposed to be a sin to do that?

along with that, missionaries bug me too. i feel that they are not RESPECTING other cultures and their religions. I know this glorious county we live in was founded basically by missionaries, but when you go to other countries and end up dead for spreading your religion to people that dont want you there, you dont have my sympathy, im just sorry. That also goes along with the people in my town, and school, that when they start talking about their religion, end up sounding like zombies, just reciting the same ole, same ole crap. it doesnt help me want to learn about religion.

I'm not a big fan of organized religion. Personal beliefs are none of my business, though.

The biggest problem I have with it is that all religions featuring Gods claim that "Largest amount of power = Right and Good".

To me, the biggest issue isn't what the real Power To Be is, but if I agree with the pushed agenda. Threats are not enough to make me bow down.

no. EXTREMISTS "blow goats". organized religion isn't good or bad, in itself. the problem comes when people stop thinking as individuals, and gain that group mentality, "we're doing this together, for god." Organized religion can be a wonderful thing. It's a group of people with similar beliefs that can support you in hard times, and who understand your religion. That's not a bad thing. now, going on a suicide bombing mission with your church isn't advised either, but, well... like I said. taking anything to it's extreme, religion, anger, even chocolate! is a bad thing. Everything in moderation.

damned well said, cheerios.

radicals normally suck. christian, wiccan, peta, Brother Hood of the Boy bands.

it makes us other people look horrible. it psses me off.

So are you better off with religion or without it? Any comments?

I'm an atheist, a true atheist, therefore I have absolutely no opinion on what beliefs other people have, other than that I know that I don't believe in the same.

But are you interested in what other people believe, HiThere? (I left off the "Dear" part because I don't know you yet...)

---paraphrasing from the movie "Contact"----

He: Did you love your father?
She: Yes.
He: Prove it.

This sums up my own feelings of religion quite nicely.

well the simple answer is that it makes things easy. also most people are born into some religion or other so they do whatever they want with it.

me, i was born into Judaism and i like it and dont feel that there is anything wrong with it,well most of it anyway :P

my family is more religious then most but less religious then others and Judaism lets u do that, which is y i like it :)

I enjoy religion and faith..

It is part of my lifestyle and part of my beliefs. It is what I have grown up believing.. not because I was told to, but because I felt it was right.

that is all i'm going to say.

Hello.

What happens when you die? That's what Religion is all about, because death is the great unknown - folk don't usually come back to explain about it to the rest of us.

So Religion tells us where we go when we die. But what good is that w/out a hook? What's the hook? Live like ____________ and die like __________. Our insecurities lead some of us to commit our lives to one theory of life. A guidebook for living so that we can die and go where our own personal messiah wants us to go. Religion tells us that we're right, as there are a whole bunch of others (ala "A billion Chinese people can't be wrong") that think and believe the same as we do. So we're not wrong, you are. Etc, etc. War, political innuendo, and so on, and so forth.

Religion is the same messages, massaged and strained. Theologically/historically, Muslims, Jews, Christians all sprouted from the same root - Abraham, I believe. Religious strife can thus be compared in equity to a sibling squabble - but with greater stakes. Hey, archaeologically, you in Ohio, your fellow specitan in India, Africa, France, and Tahiti also sprung from common soil. Coincidence? Think not, please.

WE're all human. That's a common bond. We should all LOVE each other by that bond, by default. But We're all human - our egos tell us that it's okay to pass poor judgement on fellow man/woman in the name of religious fortitude/fervor. Some of us have died and killed for this. Some of us live for this before we live for ourselves.

Love each other, brother and sister. Sound familiar?

How bout this: "Do unto others as you would have done unto you"

Sound familiar? It is the maxim of all religions. The problem is the unspoken (or sometimes VERY spoken): "and by the way, everyone who doesn't feel the same as you is SH!t." Sad. As we've all heard in some madman's old testament reiteration: "and I shall strike onto thee...(all who speak against me/SELF? may as well be)"

Religion = Truth? How?

Religion = Faith. I believe... What's wrong with FAITH? Deserved or blind? What's wrong with believing in something? Having conviction? Deserved or blind?

______ = Truth? Is it so important to know? And if you know for yourself, don't you dilute it by trying to force it onto others.

Here's the kicker: YOU = TRUTH.

You are a solitary entity. Believe what you wish, for yourself and your self alone. PLEASE. You will see that when you do, you will be a better person - for yourself and your self. And when you are that better person, you won't be. You'll want to be even better.

What is religion? A story? A life strategy? A fraud? YES/NO!

A better question is:




Who are YOU?

And by answering that, we are each better for ourselves. And by default, better for humanity.

Easytiger -

not specifically, i'm more interested in why they believe. I think most people who've looked at the various religions will agree that they are tremendously similar - superficially they may have different "characters" yet the majority all say the same thing, at least on the universal level, i'm not talking minor details or specifics.
Therefore, why does almost the entire world believe in this same idea? And why don't I? What about the origins of religion, its function, and its future? Did it serve the same function in the past that it does today? Will it continue in the future?

Anyways, you can call me dear now ;).

This is how I feel as well.

Religion; it brings people together; it tears them apart. It's brought hope; its caused wars and bloodshed (even apparently here in thread).

My personal experience was being raised as a Catholic, switching to Protestant, to Baptist, a Jehovah Witness for 2 years, back to Baptist, then Southern Baptist, then surprisingly Wicca, Agnostic, Christian Science, back to Agnostic, the view from Conversations with God, Zen, Buddhism, Taoism, to here I am. As is seen I've been searching my whole life, and am still on a spiritual quest to find God, I’m not there yet. The reason I associate my views with Zen presently is because of the focus being on the way people interact and perceive the present world around them while on their quest if one exists. I believe whatever path brings a person closest to God is what right for them. Something that’s helps me day to day are promises I read that the Toltec’s had as their main philosophy. They were four promises each person made to themselves that would contribute to having a harmonious and simpler life:

1. Always do your best
This may change from day to day such as if your sick your best wouldn’t be as high as when you healthy, but as long as you know it was your best that’s all that matters.

2. Be impeccable with you word.
Treat integrity and honor as your personal gift to yourself; and enjoy the magic that follows.

3. NEVER assume what someone else is thinking.

4. Don’t take anything personally.
What someone says to or about you is their reality not yours, no need to give your power away and allow others to control your action and thoughts.

I guess Im in the same situation as harry. Sometimes i get conflicting ideas about God, and I often question the Catholic Church. Sometimes its hard for me to understand how, if there is a God, does He/She (or whatever) allow so many awful things to occur in the world. There's so much pain and suffering, and destruction. But then I think (and I know its kinda off) that destruction is also a source of creation. Now I know im stretching the concept a bit, but it somehow applies....

I often hate the way the Church doesnt live up to its purpose. I live in a third world country, where there is an ENOURMOUS amount of poverty. And it makes me wonder, what is the church doing for all those unfortunate people? Giving them hope that they will go to heaven if they are humble and live by God's rules? I think im getting a bit political here, but I see the Church too often siding with the rich. I also dont agree with some of the traditions, I see them as useless and out-of-date. I also hate the way in which the initial conceps of religion have been altered, and made so restricting. I mean, any religion, during its beginnings, must have been very simple, and through the times, constructs have been added, and added, and added, to make it more complicated than it actually should be.

I'm aware that a lot of shit has happened in the name of religion. I dont think any religion encourages violence in any form, so I dont think any religion is to blame for those actions. It is actually a minority of people who 'bend' concepts a little here and there in order to justify their actions.

I am also quite tolerant to other religions. I hate all these fanatics who think their religion is right and the others are wrong. How do we know that who is right and who is wrong? I must admit that im nnot very knowledgeable about my own religion, but i read somewhere that catholics say that if you die without being baptised you to straight to purgatory. :confused: And it makes me wonder: how is that fair to the rest of the people? God must be really screwed if that happens, because if a buhdist or someone who doesnt get baptised like we do goes straight to purgatory and yet he lived a better life than most people, how is that fair? Personally, I dont think that if there is an afterlife, and we get judged after death, that we will not be judged upon our social constructs.

Sorry if this post was a little hard to follow, but there's so much in my head, and has been there for so long, that its hard for me to put it into words...:(

organized religion is evil. Believe what you want to believe and let that be the end of it. Stop coming to my house you fucking mormons!

the church does disapoint me. they preach one thing and then do the oppisite. no offense to anyone here, but in some ways, religion does suck; especially the ones that teach you to go door to door or to try and save another religion of close or far similarities. but i have found that some of my questions have been answered by different religions, especially the teachings of buddah. in a buddist sense, religion is kind of like a ying yang. you can't have good without a little bit of evil, or evil without a little bit of good.

To me, religion has two basic aspects:
1) It provides a means of power and control for those who lead the religion.
2) It provides a common code of behaviour that people can agree to follow, and a reason to follow it.

I'll also make one generalization about religion:
Show me someone who claims to follow their religion and I'll show you a hypocrite.

In other words, religion serves a purpose, but in the end it's all about what we want people to do, not a deity.

We can't help ourselves. Even if a deity showed up in person, gave incontrovertible prove of it's power, and gave us a set of laws, we'd add to it, imbellish it, and say that people who don't go above and beyond those laws aren't pious enough. Then we'd have splinter groups whose extensions are different from other groups. Finally, clerics of some of these groups will use their positions of influence to accomplish their own personal goals.

What ever happened to those 10 commandments? Got a little complicated since then.

Now this is not applicable to all religions, but it does cover the largest and most influential of the worlds religions. That's how they got that way.

To me religions should be viewed as a philosophy of life and no more.