Proof that God exists? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

KnifeMissile · 10-26-2003, 03:33 PM

Don't misunderstand me. I know that religion is a matter of faith and that the existence of God is not disprovable (and therefore, by definition, not scientific). My question is whether anyone actually thinks that the belief of God is not a matter of faith but rather that there is irrefutable proof He exists.

Is there any proof of God? What is it?

Tman144 · 10-26-2003, 04:13 PM

Descartes has a proof of God, read his meditations. I see problems with it but its one of the better ones.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

prosequence · 10-26-2003, 04:20 PM

What do you accept as proof?

KnifeMissile · 10-26-2003, 04:33 PM

Proof is an opinion and I'm asking for yours. Try me...

Kyo · 10-26-2003, 05:10 PM

Proof is an opinion? Then my entire existence is a lie! Nooo! *sob*

I know a lot of people who would disagree with this opinion. A proof, as opposed to theory or conjecture, is irrefutable within a given system; most opinions are comparatively weak in their support. A system, of course, must be built on some kind of assumptions or axioms.

One 'proof' I hear a lot is this: The universe came from somewhere, something. If we assume that conservation of energy holds, then all matter and energy currently in the universe has existed, in one form or another, since the beginning of time - we cannot obtain a universe from nothing. Where did all matter and energy originate from? If you claim the big bang, where did that originate from? We continue in a similar fashion until we reach a 'beginning' - at this point, we must show the original creation of all energy.

What do you think of that?

KnifeMissile · 10-26-2003, 05:22 PM

Unlike mathematics, life is not a formal system. As such, you cannot prove anything but that doesn't mean people don't think they have proof. Obviously, out here in the real world, the burden of proof is not as strict as it is in math. What constitutes proof ends up being an opinion.

I didn't realize I was starting a symantic argument...

Kyo · 10-26-2003, 05:52 PM

Well then, what do you think of the 'proof' that I have presented?

Whether proof is opinion or not depends on what you are trying to prove. If someone hits you, and you feel him hit you, see him hit you, and the person and other witnesses agree that he hit you, then it can be proven that he hit you. It is not an opinion.

Life can be made a formal system, given certain conditions. Assume, for instance, that we exist, are in fact conscious free agents, and that others are in a similar situation. From these assumptions we can begin to prove many things that are not merely opinions. We do this on a regular basis.

KnifeMissile · 10-26-2003, 06:00 PM

Sorry, I didn't notice that you actually gave a "proof." I guess I was stuck on yoru first paragraph...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo
One 'proof' I hear a lot is this: The universe came from somewhere, something. If we assume that conservation of energy holds, then all matter and energy currently in the universe has existed, in one form or another, since the beginning of time - we cannot obtain a universe from nothing. Where did all matter and energy originate from? If you claim the big bang, where did that originate from? We continue in a similar fashion until we reach a 'beginning' - at this point, we must show the original creation of all energy.

What do you think of that?

Anyway, that's no proof! I mean, you say that "we cannot obtain a universe from nothing."
First, why not? I mean, why must everything have a beginning and an end? Is it so inconceivable that the universe was always here and always will be? Must you model everything after yourself, from your birth (beginning) to your death (end)?
Secondly, God created the universe. This doesn't help! Where did God come from? He's eternal? Why couldnt' the universe be that?

I don't think this is the Christian argument for God. I don't think Christians need an argument for God, this being their faith and all, but some seem to have one none the less!

KnifeMissile · 10-26-2003, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo
Well then, what do you think of the 'proof' that I have presented?

Whether proof is opinion or not depends on what you are trying to prove. If someone hits you, and you feel him hit you, see him hit you, and the person and other witnesses agree that he hit you, then it can be proven that he hit you. It is not an opinion.

Life can be made a formal system, given certain conditions. Assume, for instance, that we exist, are in fact conscious free agents, and that others are in a similar situation. From these assumptions we can begin to prove many things that are not merely opinions. We do this on a regular basis.

While I think most people will agree with your burden of proof here (including myself), there are some who would argue that you don't necessarily know that the things you are observing are real. However, that's a debate I have no interest in pursuing. If you can't agree on something like that, there's just no fun in debating further.

I don't think life can be made a formal system. I believe a formal system requires all statements to be propositions (true or false statements), which is not life! Do you love your wife? This statement is false! You get the idea...

Kyo · 10-26-2003, 06:12 PM

Actually, this is a Christian argument for God - the one I get most often. And the problem with it is exactly as you state - they assume that time is finite and the universe is not eternal.

I don't have any vested interest in proving that God exists, since I'm not a believer, so this is as far as I'm going to go on this side of the argument.

There is faith, and then there is blind faith. Those that follow the latter are generally termed "idiots".

Church · 10-26-2003, 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tman144
Descartes has a proof of God, read his meditations. I see problems with it but its one of the better ones.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

That whole page is like a big game of Connect the Celebrities. I dunno, it still doesn't prove anything to me. On with the topic, I'd rather believe that I am in charge of what I do. I don't like the fact that apparently 'god' has a destiny or path for me.

happyraul · 10-26-2003, 08:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KnifeMissle
While I think most people will agree with your burden of proof here (including myself), there are some who would argue that you don't necessarily know that the things you are observing are real. However, that's a debate I have no interest in pursuing. If you can't agree on something like that, there's just no fun in debating further.

I don't think life can be made a formal system. I believe a formal system requires all statements to be propositions (true or false statements), which is not life! Do you love your wife? This statement is false! You get the idea...

This is what I was going to bring up and I couldn't have said it any better.

BuddyHawks · 10-26-2003, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Tman144
Descartes has a proof of God, read his meditations. I see problems with it but its one of the better ones.

http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm

HeeHee. I was planning on linking that too. So i will.
Over Three Hundred Proofs of God’s Existence

CSflim · 10-27-2003, 02:09 PM

Kyo, the big problem with this proof, in my eyes, is that it doesn't come close to proving the existence of god. It does nothing of the sort.

All it proves it that there was some cuase external to the universe.

So what? How does that cause equate to God?
Why do people then take this "Ultimate Cause" and project onto it, such inexplicable characteristics as consciousness, morality, loving creator, all powerful, all knowing, bestower of imortal souls, etc etc etc...

I will be perfectly happy to accept a cause of our universe, external to it. Doesn't bring me any closer to believing in God however.

Al] thread I started on this subject

CSflim · 10-27-2003, 02:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KnifeMissle
Unlike mathematics, life is not a formal system...

..or at least, Life is not a formal system who's rules we know.

DownwardSpiral · 10-27-2003, 02:34 PM

That's just it Knife, there isn't any.

dragon2fire · 10-27-2003, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo
Proof is an opinion? Then my entire existence is a lie! Nooo! *sob*

I know a lot of people who would disagree with this opinion. A proof, as opposed to theory or conjecture, is irrefutable within a given system; most opinions are comparatively weak in their support. A system, of course, must be built on some kind of assumptions or axioms.

One 'proof' I hear a lot is this: The universe came from somewhere, something. If we assume that conservation of energy holds, then all matter and energy currently in the universe has existed, in one form or another, since the beginning of time - we cannot obtain a universe from nothing. Where did all matter and energy originate from? If you claim the big bang, where did that originate from? We continue in a similar fashion until we reach a 'beginning' - at this point, we must show the original creation of all energy.

What do you think of that?

well you mangage to prove that everything comes form some were

this does not prove a all good or all powerful god

then again i am a atheist

Kyo · 10-27-2003, 08:53 PM

I'd like to point something out:

I do not believe in God.

Therefore, any proof I present here is something I have heard - but obviously do not support myself, since if I did I would necessarily have to believe in God.

The holes in the 'proof' that I presented are obvious - I have used those arguments against this 'proof' in face-to-face argument and never recieved a satisfactory answer (ie "Well, if it wasn't God, what was it? Huh? Huh?").

Since no one else seems to have a contribution, I thought that presenting the justification that I encountered most often would fuel some meaningful discussion, but that hasn't happened so far ...

... because this argument is one-sided! Nobody has actually argued in favor of the existence of God - much less attempted to seriously prove it. We are all making huge circles around our central point - it isn't possible to prove that God exists.

saltfish · 10-27-2003, 10:03 PM

<With a ton of implied sarcasm>

Here we go:

"I would love to believe that when I die
I will live again, that some thinking,
feeling, remembering part of me will continue.
But as much as I want to believe that and despite the
ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that
assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest
that it is more than wishful thinking." -- Carl Sagan

If Carl don't think it so, then it taint so!

</With a ton of implied sarcasm>

-SF

CSflim · 10-28-2003, 11:30 AM

Apologies to Kyo, misunderstood your intentions.

As for the original question.

In principle it is entirely impossible to disprove the existence of god.
No matter what evidence you may put forward, the undeniable come-back is "that's just how god made it".
If you were to prove beyond doubt that evolution happened, and that the universe started from a big bang, and the universe is run by a set of formal laws, there is a simple and predictable rebuttal available to all theists.
In fact, this single rebuttal can be used in two ways:

1. Evolution and the Big Bang did not happen. I accept all of the evidence you have gathered, but all of that evidence was found within God’s universe. God created the universe, and as such it is not inconceivable that he created the fossils which you found which led you to your incorrect beliefs. Similarly for your evidence of the Big Bang. Why God decided to create the universe in such a way is not for us to attempt to understand. But he did.

And more rationally:
2. Evolution and the Big Bang did happen. They are the methods that God used to create and run the universe. This newly discovered Theory of Everything? Again, that just shows the rules which God designed when creating the universe.

In short, it is impossible, in principle to disprove the existence of God.

The opposite however, I don’t believe to be true, at least in principle.
Were God to introduce a new 11th commandment, and smite people with lightning bolts every time it is broken, he would do much in persuading me of his existence.
Or if he parted the clouds and had nice friendly chats with his loyal subjects. Or if he wrote a book, explicitly predicting certain events of the future. Or if he sent down his only son to die and rise from the dead. All of these things would certainly be considered as very weighty evidence.

Now obviously it would be impossible to construct a formal proof of the existence of god, simply on the basis that it is impossible to formally prove anything in the real world, as we are continuously reminded on these boards.
However, to me, overwhelming evidence is as good a proof as you can expect for anything (do rocks fall to the ground when you drop them?)

raeanna74 · 10-28-2003, 12:16 PM

I don't think I have irrefutable proof that God exists. I also have no proof that evolution did/does not occur. I choose to believe that God exists based on my interrpretations of current evidence.

I see it this way - There is such order and planning in the universe. Everything can be explained mathematically and logically. Just the chemicals that make up our body are such that we are walking bombs and yet everything holds together and is proportioned such that we don't. I cannot imagine all the order and the control of energy that we have in our universe occuring because of chance? Our bodies alone are so interlinked that one function failing affects all the other functions in some way. To go through evolution and survive would be extremely difficult.

Believing in God is just as inconcievable to many who don't. Now If I'm wrong and my life ends I will find myself having done what good I could in my life and NOT facing a higher power. If I'm right - Then I don't get sent to hell or punishment or a lower life form because of it. To believe I compromise myself less I think - granted there are certain things I won't do but most of them go along with the laws of my nation anyway. I'm not hampering my self desires because of my belief in God. It only causes me to respect Him, his creation, and other human beings. It causes me to desire to be the best I can be. I could do those things either way I think. I just don't end up paying for it if I don't believe in Him and he ends up being a reality.

Kyo · 10-28-2003, 02:47 PM

So in other words, you are arguing Pascal's Gambit - everyone should believe in God because you can't lose in the afterlife.

I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't a downside. After all, if it turns out that God does not exist, a large part of your life would be composed around a core of lies, and who really wants that? To study a Bible that isn't worth any more spiritually as your favorite library paperback. To attend Church and listen to sermons that lack truth or meaning. To worship a nonexistent deity, thanking Him for things that were the result of random chance, for things that other people, rather than some God, are responsible for.

Regardless, faith isn't that simple. If you don't believe in God, you can't just turn around and say, "Oh, I'll believe in Him because it's the smart thing to do." If the feeling and belief aren't genuine, you'll be going to Hell with all of the nonbelievers.

CSflim · 10-28-2003, 02:58 PM

My attitude towards Pascal's Wager is summed up by Douglas Adams:

Quote:

People will then often say “But surely it’s better to remain an Agnostic just in case?” This, to me, suggests such a level of silliness and muddle that I usually edge out of the conversation rather than get sucked into it. (If it turns out that I’ve been wrong all along, and there is in fact a god, and if it further turned out that this kind of legalistic, cross-your-fingers-behind-your-back, Clintonian hair-splitting impressed him, then I think I would chose not to worship him anyway.)

Link to excellent interview

happyraul · 10-28-2003, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by raeanna74
I see it this way - There is such order and planning in the universe. Everything can be explained mathematically and logically. Just the chemicals that make up our body are such that we are walking bombs and yet everything holds together and is proportioned such that we don't. I cannot imagine all the order and the control of energy that we have in our universe occuring because of chance? Our bodies alone are so interlinked that one function failing affects all the other functions in some way. To go through evolution and survive would be extremely difficult.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kyo
To worship a nonexistent deity, thanking Him for things that were the result of random chance, for things that other people, rather than some God, are responsible for.

Evolution is not a process of chance. Evolution is driven by selection, which is not random. So when you say that humans, or any life form for that matter, are way too complex to be the result of chance, you are right, because life is not a result of chance. Nor is it, in my belief a result of God. It is a result of evolution, which uses selection as a mechanism. So all you really have when you point out complexities in life is a Darwin Detector.

But back to the topic I agree with what CSFlim said.

CSflim · 10-28-2003, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by happyraul
Evolution is not a process of chance. Evolution is driven by selection, which is not random. So when you say that humans, or any life form for that matter, are way too complex to be the result of chance, you are right, because life is not a result of chance. Nor is it, in my belief a result of God. It is a result of evolution, which uses selection as a mechanism. So all you really have when you point out complexities in life is a Darwin Detector.

in all honesty, you're wasting you're breath...

happyraul · 10-28-2003, 05:41 PM

That may be, but this is a common error, and I am at least trying to remedy it among my limited audience.

ironman · 10-29-2003, 11:10 AM

I think that me feeling Him is enough proof.

Midnight_Son · 10-30-2003, 11:49 AM

I don't believe in God, I believe in Joe Peshi, I pray to Joe because he looks like a cat that can get shit done. Joe is real, I can see Joe.....and if I pray to Joe the chances of it doing anything are the same as if you prayed to your god. - Carlin

filtherton · 10-30-2003, 03:37 PM

I think the belief in a god is very similar to the belief in a unified theory.
How much faith does it require to believe that there is a unified theory to be discovered? How much faith does it require to ignore the fact that some of the laws of physics as we know them completely contradict other laws? Science has gotten us this far, and it explains many things very well but at this point it doesn't seem to be fulfilling the purpose of explaining everything with consistency. I think the faith that one day science will explain away all mystery, or even that science is capable of explaining everything is very similar to the faith that the religious have when they think everything can be explained by a god. When it boils down to it, science and christianity have both failed to provide any sure evidence of what exists beyond what we can know.
I don't care what you believe, just don't pretend that you have any definative answers, because everything is based on faith.

Gun · 10-30-2003, 09:05 PM

From the earlier posted link:

163. ARGUMENT FROM WTC II
(1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands.
(2) An intact bible was found in the ruins.
(3) No, wait, it turns out it was a dictionary.
(4) Oh, well, God exists anyway.

Hahahaha, that's classic.

GakFace · 10-31-2003, 04:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by KnifeMissle
Anyway, that's no proof! I mean, you say that "we cannot obtain a universe from nothing."
First, why not? I mean, why must everything have a beginning and an end? Is it so inconceivable that the universe was always here and always will be? Must you model everything after yourself, from your birth (beginning) to your death (end)?
Secondly, God created the universe. This doesn't help! Where did God come from? He's eternal? Why couldnt' the universe be that?

I can reply the same thing for the existance of God. You stated your reasons.. and I feel like quoting something in that quote

Quote:

Is it so inconceivable that the universe was always here and always will be?

Thats what I say about God. See thus, my proof to you, is your proof to me. Lovely aint it? Also, My belief in God has nothing to do with whether or not the universe has always existed, or if someone started it. I do believe the bible explains the existance of US... maybe ou solar system.. but beyond that the bible doesn't really say much. So no its not inconceivable to me that the universe was always here and always will be, I just think the same about God as well.

lolita · 10-31-2003, 06:55 PM

GOD EXISTS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL HERE TALKING ABOUT HIM/IT/WHATEVER. THEREFORE GOD EXISTS - ITS LOGICAL. IF WE SPEAK OF SOMETHING - MY PHILOSPHY IS IT MUST EXIST.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Dilbert1234567 · 10-31-2003, 11:56 PM

you cant prove waht can not be proven.

Sunrise · 11-01-2003, 01:04 AM

Prove he exists?
Prove he DOESN'T exist.
har har. You can't really do either directly.

happyraul · 11-01-2003, 01:07 PM

so if we speak of little green men on mars they exist, lolita?

GakFace · 11-01-2003, 01:54 PM

Dilbert... Sunrise just nuetralized ya. You said that we can't prove to you that he exists... well I have yet to see stuff prove that he doesn't exist either. It works.. .just on both sides of the story to be technical, which is what i'm doing.

GakFace · 11-01-2003, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lolita
GOD EXISTS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL HERE TALKING ABOUT HIM/IT/WHATEVER. THEREFORE GOD EXISTS - ITS LOGICAL. IF WE SPEAK OF SOMETHING - MY PHILOSPHY IS IT MUST EXIST.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I do realize this is a double post folks, I just believe this post needed to be addressed seperately.
Lolita, I must stress to you to not get into it like this. Typing in caps like you're appauled to hear such a thing... it just doesn't work here. Not only do you look less civilized, but there are a lot of people who really don't believe, and so you gotta come off better than yelling. Just seeing what you say and with all those exlamation points.. it looks like you could easily be flamed. Not that flaming is condoned here, but if a bottle is opened.. people tend to use every drop.. hehe.

Btw, I'm not sure your philosophy is all that developed. If you still think so, then hmm.. What if there are really invisible aliens that watch us everytime we undress and take a shower and have sex... and even mess with us while we sleep? By your philosophy, just by me thinking of this would prove of their existance. I'm just not seeing it.

Oh and before you decide to yell at me.. I do believe in God, very much in fact.

Lebell · 11-01-2003, 05:57 PM

It becomes a catch22 argument.

Either a) There is no proof God exists because He/She doesn't or:

b) There is no proof God exists because if there was, it would take away our free will, which God will not do.

Astrocloud · 11-02-2003, 01:33 AM

You know I love this thread. I just wanted to point out that perhaps whether God exists or not isn't simply provable. We can make assumptions about God and then disprove them which is characteristically a straw man or... we can simply say that knowledge of such is outside the scope of human intelligence. It doesn't mean it exists and it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Whether or not it matters is open for debate. But it seems pretty pointless to argue the existence of a general God anymore a god than say ...Quetzacoatle.

P.S. Quetzacoatle Exists! Here's my proof:

KnifeMissile · 11-02-2003, 12:45 PM

Actually, this thread didn't go in the direction I was hoping it would.

There are Christians that will call me insane and delusional for being even skeptical that He exists. I mean, what's with that? If you're going to take that kind of stance, you must have some kind of proof to be so sure, don't you? Or rather, to not understand that not everyone is going to be so sure...

10-26-2003, 03:33 PM	#1 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Proof that God exists? Don't misunderstand me. I know that religion is a matter of faith and that the existence of God is not disprovable (and therefore, by definition, not scientific). My question is whether anyone actually thinks that the belief of God is not a matter of faith but rather that there is irrefutable proof He exists. Is there any proof of God? What is it?

10-26-2003, 04:13 PM	#2 (permalink)
Tman144 Tilted	Descartes has a proof of God, read his meditations. I see problems with it but its one of the better ones. http://www.godlessgeeks.com/LINKS/GodProof.htm __________________ "Don't touch my belt, you Jesus freak!" -Mr. Gruff the Atheist Goat

10-26-2003, 04:20 PM	#3 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	What do you accept as proof? __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

10-26-2003, 05:10 PM	#5 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	Proof is an opinion? Then my entire existence is a lie! Nooo! sob I know a lot of people who would disagree with this opinion. A proof, as opposed to theory or conjecture, is irrefutable within a given system; most opinions are comparatively weak in their support. A system, of course, must be built on some kind of assumptions or axioms. One 'proof' I hear a lot is this: The universe came from somewhere, something. If we assume that conservation of energy holds, then all matter and energy currently in the universe has existed, in one form or another, since the beginning of time - we cannot obtain a universe from nothing. Where did all matter and energy originate from? If you claim the big bang, where did that originate from? We continue in a similar fashion until we reach a 'beginning' - at this point, we must show the original creation of all energy. What do you think of that? __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

10-26-2003, 05:52 PM	#7 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	Well then, what do you think of the 'proof' that I have presented? Whether proof is opinion or not depends on what you are trying to prove. If someone hits you, and you feel him hit you, see him hit you, and the person and other witnesses agree that he hit you, then it can be proven that he hit you. It is not an opinion. Life can be made a formal system, given certain conditions. Assume, for instance, that we exist, are in fact conscious free agents, and that others are in a similar situation. From these assumptions we can begin to prove many things that are not merely opinions. We do this on a regular basis. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

10-26-2003, 04:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Proof is an opinion and I'm asking for yours. Try me...

10-26-2003, 05:22 PM	#6 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Unlike mathematics, life is not a formal system. As such, you cannot prove anything but that doesn't mean people don't think they have proof. Obviously, out here in the real world, the burden of proof is not as strict as it is in math. What constitutes proof ends up being an opinion. I didn't realize I was starting a symantic argument...

10-26-2003, 06:12 PM	#10 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	Actually, this is a Christian argument for God - the one I get most often. And the problem with it is exactly as you state - they assume that time is finite and the universe is not eternal. I don't have any vested interest in proving that God exists, since I'm not a believer, so this is as far as I'm going to go on this side of the argument. There is faith, and then there is blind faith. Those that follow the latter are generally termed "idiots". __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

10-27-2003, 02:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Kyo, the big problem with this proof, in my eyes, is that it doesn't come close to proving the existence of god. It does nothing of the sort. All it proves it that there was some cuase external to the universe. So what? How does that cause equate to God? Why do people then take this "Ultimate Cause" and project onto it, such inexplicable characteristics as consciousness, morality, loving creator, all powerful, all knowing, bestower of imortal souls, etc etc etc... I will be perfectly happy to accept a cause of our universe, external to it. Doesn't bring me any closer to believing in God however. Al] thread I started on this subject __________________

10-27-2003, 02:34 PM	#16 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	That's just it Knife, there isn't any. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"

10-27-2003, 08:53 PM	#18 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	I'd like to point something out: I do not believe in God. Therefore, any proof I present here is something I have heard - but obviously do not support myself, since if I did I would necessarily have to believe in God. The holes in the 'proof' that I presented are obvious - I have used those arguments against this 'proof' in face-to-face argument and never recieved a satisfactory answer (ie "Well, if it wasn't God, what was it? Huh? Huh?"). Since no one else seems to have a contribution, I thought that presenting the justification that I encountered most often would fuel some meaningful discussion, but that hasn't happened so far ... ... because this argument is one-sided! Nobody has actually argued in favor of the existence of God - much less attempted to seriously prove it. We are all making huge circles around our central point - it isn't possible to prove that God exists. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

10-27-2003, 10:03 PM	#19 (permalink)
saltfish !?!No hay pantalones!?! Location: Indian-no-place	<With a ton of implied sarcasm> Here we go: "I would love to believe that when I die I will live again, that some thinking, feeling, remembering part of me will continue. But as much as I want to believe that and despite the ancient and worldwide cultural traditions that assert an afterlife, I know of nothing to suggest that it is more than wishful thinking." -- Carl Sagan If Carl don't think it so, then it taint so! </With a ton of implied sarcasm> -SF

10-28-2003, 11:30 AM	#20 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	Apologies to Kyo, misunderstood your intentions. As for the original question. In principle it is entirely impossible to disprove the existence of god. No matter what evidence you may put forward, the undeniable come-back is "that's just how god made it". If you were to prove beyond doubt that evolution happened, and that the universe started from a big bang, and the universe is run by a set of formal laws, there is a simple and predictable rebuttal available to all theists. In fact, this single rebuttal can be used in two ways: 1. Evolution and the Big Bang did not happen. I accept all of the evidence you have gathered, but all of that evidence was found within God’s universe. God created the universe, and as such it is not inconceivable that he created the fossils which you found which led you to your incorrect beliefs. Similarly for your evidence of the Big Bang. Why God decided to create the universe in such a way is not for us to attempt to understand. But he did. And more rationally: 2. Evolution and the Big Bang did happen. They are the methods that God used to create and run the universe. This newly discovered Theory of Everything? Again, that just shows the rules which God designed when creating the universe. In short, it is impossible, in principle to disprove the existence of God. The opposite however, I don’t believe to be true, at least in principle. Were God to introduce a new 11th commandment, and smite people with lightning bolts every time it is broken, he would do much in persuading me of his existence. Or if he parted the clouds and had nice friendly chats with his loyal subjects. Or if he wrote a book, explicitly predicting certain events of the future. Or if he sent down his only son to die and rise from the dead. All of these things would certainly be considered as very weighty evidence. Now obviously it would be impossible to construct a formal proof of the existence of god, simply on the basis that it is impossible to formally prove anything in the real world, as we are continuously reminded on these boards. However, to me, overwhelming evidence is as good a proof as you can expect for anything (do rocks fall to the ground when you drop them?) __________________

10-28-2003, 12:16 PM	#21 (permalink)
raeanna74 I'm not a blonde! I'm knot! I'm knot! I'm knot! Location: Upper Michigan	I don't think I have irrefutable proof that God exists. I also have no proof that evolution did/does not occur. I choose to believe that God exists based on my interrpretations of current evidence. I see it this way - There is such order and planning in the universe. Everything can be explained mathematically and logically. Just the chemicals that make up our body are such that we are walking bombs and yet everything holds together and is proportioned such that we don't. I cannot imagine all the order and the control of energy that we have in our universe occuring because of chance? Our bodies alone are so interlinked that one function failing affects all the other functions in some way. To go through evolution and survive would be extremely difficult. Believing in God is just as inconcievable to many who don't. Now If I'm wrong and my life ends I will find myself having done what good I could in my life and NOT facing a higher power. If I'm right - Then I don't get sent to hell or punishment or a lower life form because of it. To believe I compromise myself less I think - granted there are certain things I won't do but most of them go along with the laws of my nation anyway. I'm not hampering my self desires because of my belief in God. It only causes me to respect Him, his creation, and other human beings. It causes me to desire to be the best I can be. I could do those things either way I think. I just don't end up paying for it if I don't believe in Him and he ends up being a reality. __________________ "Always learn the rules so that you can break them properly." Dalai Lama My Karma just ran over your Dogma.

10-28-2003, 02:47 PM	#22 (permalink)
Kyo Crazy	So in other words, you are arguing Pascal's Gambit - everyone should believe in God because you can't lose in the afterlife. I'm not entirely convinced that there isn't a downside. After all, if it turns out that God does not exist, a large part of your life would be composed around a core of lies, and who really wants that? To study a Bible that isn't worth any more spiritually as your favorite library paperback. To attend Church and listen to sermons that lack truth or meaning. To worship a nonexistent deity, thanking Him for things that were the result of random chance, for things that other people, rather than some God, are responsible for. Regardless, faith isn't that simple. If you don't believe in God, you can't just turn around and say, "Oh, I'll believe in Him because it's the smart thing to do." If the feeling and belief aren't genuine, you'll be going to Hell with all of the nonbelievers. __________________ Sure I have a heart; it's floating in a jar in my closet, along with my tonsils, my appendix, and all of the other useless organs I ripped out.

10-28-2003, 05:41 PM	#26 (permalink)
happyraul Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	That may be, but this is a common error, and I am at least trying to remedy it among my limited audience.

10-29-2003, 11:10 AM	#27 (permalink)
ironman Smithers, release the hounds Location: Guatemala, Guatemala	I think that me feeling Him is enough proof. __________________ If I agreed with you we´d both be wrong

10-30-2003, 11:49 AM	#28 (permalink)
Midnight_Son The Cover Doesn't Match The Book Location: in a van down by the river	I don't believe in God, I believe in Joe Peshi, I pray to Joe because he looks like a cat that can get shit done. Joe is real, I can see Joe.....and if I pray to Joe the chances of it doing anything are the same as if you prayed to your god. - Carlin __________________ SWM, tattooed, seeks meaningful tits and beer. Enjoys biker mags, pornography, and Sunday morning walks to the liquor store. Winners of erotic hot dog eating contests given priority.

10-30-2003, 03:37 PM	#29 (permalink)
filtherton Junkie Location: In the land of ice and snow.	I think the belief in a god is very similar to the belief in a unified theory. How much faith does it require to believe that there is a unified theory to be discovered? How much faith does it require to ignore the fact that some of the laws of physics as we know them completely contradict other laws? Science has gotten us this far, and it explains many things very well but at this point it doesn't seem to be fulfilling the purpose of explaining everything with consistency. I think the faith that one day science will explain away all mystery, or even that science is capable of explaining everything is very similar to the faith that the religious have when they think everything can be explained by a god. When it boils down to it, science and christianity have both failed to provide any sure evidence of what exists beyond what we can know. I don't care what you believe, just don't pretend that you have any definative answers, because everything is based on faith.

10-30-2003, 09:05 PM	#30 (permalink)
Gun Banned Location: Long Island	From the earlier posted link: 163. ARGUMENT FROM WTC II (1) Terrorists destroyed the WTC, killing thousands. (2) An intact bible was found in the ruins. (3) No, wait, it turns out it was a dictionary. (4) Oh, well, God exists anyway. Hahahaha, that's classic.

10-31-2003, 06:55 PM	#32 (permalink)
lolita Upright	GOD EXISTS BECAUSE WE ARE ALL HERE TALKING ABOUT HIM/IT/WHATEVER. THEREFORE GOD EXISTS - ITS LOGICAL. IF WE SPEAK OF SOMETHING - MY PHILOSPHY IS IT MUST EXIST.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

10-31-2003, 11:56 PM	#33 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	you cant prove waht can not be proven. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

11-01-2003, 01:04 AM	#34 (permalink)
Sunrise Crazy Location: Melbourne, Australia	Prove he exists? Prove he DOESN'T exist. har har. You can't really do either directly.

11-01-2003, 01:07 PM	#35 (permalink)
happyraul Crazy Location: St. Louis, MO	so if we speak of little green men on mars they exist, lolita?

11-01-2003, 01:54 PM	#36 (permalink)
GakFace Go Ninja, Go Ninja Go!! Location: IN, USA	Dilbert... Sunrise just nuetralized ya. You said that we can't prove to you that he exists... well I have yet to see stuff prove that he doesn't exist either. It works.. .just on both sides of the story to be technical, which is what i'm doing. __________________ RoboBlaster: Welcome to the club! Not that I'm in the club. And there really isn'a a club in the first place. But if there was a club and if I was in it, I would definitely welcome you to it.

11-01-2003, 05:57 PM	#38 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	It becomes a catch22 argument. Either a) There is no proof God exists because He/She doesn't or: b) There is no proof God exists because if there was, it would take away our free will, which God will not do. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

11-02-2003, 01:33 AM	#39 (permalink)
Astrocloud Apocalypse Nerd	You know I love this thread. I just wanted to point out that perhaps whether God exists or not isn't simply provable. We can make assumptions about God and then disprove them which is characteristically a straw man or... we can simply say that knowledge of such is outside the scope of human intelligence. It doesn't mean it exists and it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist. Whether or not *it matters* is open for debate. But it seems pretty pointless to argue the existence of a general God anymore a god than say ...Quetzacoatle. P.S. Quetzacoatle Exists! Here's my proof:

11-02-2003, 12:45 PM	#40 (permalink)
KnifeMissile Location: Waterloo, Ontario	Actually, this thread didn't go in the direction I was hoping it would. There are Christians that will call me insane and delusional for being even skeptical that He exists. I mean, what's with that? If you're going to take that kind of stance, you must have some kind of proof to be so sure, don't you? Or rather, to not understand that not everyone is going to be so sure...