Does God have Free Will?
 

If God knows everything thats going to happen, then He knows what He is going to do in the future. And if you know what your going to do, then you don't really have a choice, you already know. So, does that mean that God cannot choose what happens, and that He is only playing His part inthe universe. This assumes God exists, and He is a personal God.

This also assumes that God is within our concept of Time? My guess would be that a God in that situation would make it so he didnt know, maybe by splitting his conciousness into a billion different lesser versions so he could experience himself from infinite perspectives.

I think God has free will and that is why he knows what is going to happen. He knows what he wants to do and he knows that he's going to do it and therefore he knows the future.

I also agree with yellowgowild that God's perception of time probably isn't the same as ours. I think that God sees time as more of the entire line while we only see the spot that we're in.

nice question. this would mean that there is a power above god (where god came from) and the ladder would go up infinately.

if anybody can see anybody's future, that negates free will. so if god can see the future of himself, then he loses free will and becomes a pawn like the rest of us (who is the master player?).

i really dont think that religion can explain this well.

the thread starter's statement is about how language works - not about anything else. we often see contradiction or paradox in things when the contradictions and paradoxes actually have to do with language and the arbitrary definitions of words and concepts.

Re: Does God have Free Will?
 

That too assumes that God reasons as we do and that God is limited by Time.

Can God create a boulder so large that He Himself cannot lift it?

Human reasoning is inherently flawed.

I'd like to think that an all-knowing God would be able to see ALL possible futures, all possible outcomes for all possible events that can take place, and knowing THAT then he can decide which is the best future he should follow, so in that sense he can both see the future and yet have a choice on how to act. La la la . . .

And the boulder thing, think of it like this: God would have infinite power, therefore he could create a boulder of infinite mass, and yet since his power is infinite he would still be able to lift it. So there.:D

Is human reasoning so flawed that our reasons to belive in God are flawed?

KnifeMissle: you deserve a good beating :D

If you want human logic on God, how about this:
he has free will and he can see the future, they're not mutually exclusive

think of it this way:
you have a dilemma, you can pick 2 possible ways to solve it.
You can look into the future to see what both ways will have as immediate and long-term effects.
You weigh both against eachother and decide on the best.

How about you look into the immediate future, see which one you are going to pick as the best one and save yourself trouble :)

Does this mean you don't have free will? No, you can still opt for the other solution, just to spice things up :)

So for God to be all-knowing, he would have had to decide everything that was going to happen all at once, aka the Divine Plan. That means that God created everything that has and is going to happen all at once. So its already been decided everything I'm going to do. This is why religion is so depressing for me.

Looking into the future also means you know which choice you are going to make, so how do you have a choice? If you did have a choice then when you saw yourself making a choice that wasn't future. The point is that it is IMPOSSIBLE for you to see the future AND have a choice. Just draw a truth table.

I disagree,

you can see in the future, so you can see where different things lead when you pick them. That doesn't mean you can't pick on your own.
In effect you can see multiple futures because of it

Not sure if you got my question. I am not saying that God cannot create a boulder of infinite mass.

I am asking if God can create a boulder that He Himself cannot lift it. If He can't then there is something that God cannot do, if He can then He is not omnipotent.

That is just to illustarte the fact that there are certain things that the human mind is unable to fully comprehend.

Knifemissile, yes. There are missing pieces in our understanding and flaws in our logic. Can a finite mind truly grasp the infinite?

The point to note here is that we, human beings are limited by Time. God is not. He was there and is here and will continue to be. What does the future mean to Someone who is not constrained by time?

There is a main problem with assumptions here. You are assuming that BECAUSE God can see the future that he must make it be. This is a false assertion.

Let us make a few basic arguments first.

If you assert that God created the universe then you would assert that he created matter and space.
When matter moves through space he have change, or more specifically TIME. So we can now assert that God created time as well.

Since God was present before the creation of matter or space, he can stand outside and independent of matter and space.
Since God can stand both outside of matter and outside of space he can also stand outside of time.
Since he stands outside of time he can see the beginning and the end and every moment in between all at once. In this sense he is not only everywhere, but also everywhen.

Here is my argument.
Let us say that you are observing a painter. Let us also say that you have a VERY keen eye. You have correctly recorded the exact number of brush strokes made by the painter, the number of colors he used, the number of times he dipped his brush. Let us go even farther in saying that you even know the exact chemical make up of every molecule of paint. Let's stretch it even farther and say that you knew what the painting would look like after it was finished.

What can we say now? You clearly know more about the painting than the painter, right? Does that mean that YOU painted it? of course not!

In the same way God can see the end without forcing humans to behave in a certain way. Humans still have choice and the ability to choose situations based upon the outcome they desire. Just because God looks over out shoulder at the lives we lead, does not mean that he decides for us. Even if he understands more about those lives than WE do, it does not mean that he lives our lives for us or makes us do things.

There are plenty more examples, but I don't want to beat a dead horse by making this post long or annoying with repetition. If anyone is interested in more information I have on this topic you can mail me your questions. I am glad to share my observations with any, even those who disagree. We learn by questioning, otherwise we are blind beggars.

Re: Re: Does God have Free Will?
 

I agree littlewild. Our reason may be limited. But this question is a poor example of why our reason is limited.
That question is flawed. It is illogical within itself. One cannot use Reason or Logic to answer it because it is illogical.

What happens when a Unstoppable force encounters an Unmoveable force?

The question or the inability to answer it proves nothing for or against human reason.

These kinds of arguments have the tendency to degenerate into "our minds are simply unable to comprehend due to the contraints in which we live," which, though a view I support, is not particularly satisfying or helpful.

- Aias: However, if you knew how the painting would come out, you already know every choice the painter is going to make - in fact, since God stands outside of time, you could, in a way, say that the painting has already been painted the moment the painter begins to paint it. I realize that 'the moment' and 'begins' are meaningless in a time-independant system, but I can't think of a better way to describe it. Therefore, every 'choice' that the painter believes he has, is actually following a path towards the 'future' that you have already seen - you know how the painting is going to turn out, so it can't possibly turn out any other way. Nobody is forcing the painter to paint a certain way, no, but because the future, the result, has already been seen, the painter has no choice but to produce that future.

- Nisses: You can see the consequences of your choices, yes - but a true omniscience also indicates that you know exactly what choices you and everyone else makes! You know everything. What has already happened, what is currently happening, what will happen, anywhere and everywhere, simultaneously. So no matter what choice you make, God knows you would have made the choice - therefore making 'free will' an illusion.

an illusion that is well kept I would add.

So far I haven't seen anybody claim his free will was violated. So in essence, yes, free will as seen by God might be an illusion, but from the mortal pov it doesn't affect us, since we don't know anything. It makes for a free will substitute all the same.

That still doesn't mean it holds true for God.
Hell, since God exists beyond space and time, who's to say his power in that place is as big as it is inside the universe?

And yes, I do understand your point of view, I just don't think it holds true for God.

I really don't get the problem here. If we're thinking of God of being time-independant, why don't we just think of all of history as a part of God's plan. He made the plan, so therefore he obviously has free will, and if something comes up in what we consider the future and he acts in a certain way because that is the way he must act, who cares? He already made the choice. All of these details we are debating as to what he can see in the future don't really matter because he already acted.

Killconey, so if I kill you, nobody should get mad at me because God made it so that I should kill you. People who believe in the bible have no right to tell others how to live because God knows its going to happen.

This goes to my next question, how can God test us if he already knows the answer? After reading the book of Job, I began to think, why didn't God just tell Satan as he was first walking up to God what was going to happen before Satan asked his question?

Me: "Hey God, you know everything, right?"
God: "Of course, my child"
Me: "So if I said something, you would be able to tell me if it was truthful or not?"
God: "That is correct"
Me: "So if I said, 2 + 2 = 4..."
God: "..I would know that such a statement was true"
Me: "and if I said 6 * 9 = 42..."
God: "..I would know that to be false"
Me: "and you will always be able to answer correctly?"
God: "Well I am God you know..."
Me: "oooh I've got one..."
God: "Go on..."
Me: "This statement is false"
God: "That is...ummm...well...." *God's head explodes*
Me: "Shit! I just killed god!"

Linguistic arguments are just that. You must be very careful when you try to deduce conclusions from them.

If God did exist, his ability to "know the future" would not remove his ability to have free will.
On the other hand, God's ability to know the future would remove our ability to exercise free will.
The difference being, God would not exist within "time", but of course, we do.

Can God create a rock so heavy he cannot lift it?
Can God draw a square circle?
Can God come up with a proof that 2+2=5?

All meaningless arguments, which do nothing to disprove the notion of an omnipotent/omniscient God.

Did anybody ask God what the answers was?

Using God as a scapegoat is incorrect - knowing what is occuring is not the same as perpetrating the crime. Though many argue that if God exists then he is either malicious or irresponsible.

From a practical sense, we can't blame God, therefore we must blame the mortal agent. If you pull the trigger, we put you in jail or in the chair, because we can. We can't punish God, but we can punish people.

In the end, modern society in general functions smoothly only if we consider it independent of God's intervention. After all - if all of our actions are God's doing, then He is the one damning the sinners to Hell, not the sinners themselves, and that just doesn't make any sense at all.

At this point, I suppose a real believer would jump in with something about mere humans not understanding God's grand scheme, etc. But I'm not a believer so I'm not going to go there.

Also, I suggest being careful when you make sweeping semi-hate statements regarding an entire group's rights - especially when you say little or nothing to support your claims and lack any authority to dictate said rights.

Tman, if you were to kill me it would be because you freely chose to kill me. While God would indeed know that you were going to choose to kill me, he didn't make you do it.

To attempt to answer your second question, I'm going to glean from the wisdom of the Matrix. The Oracle told Neo that what he chose wasn't as important as why he chose it. Perhaps in the book of Job it wasn't Job's loyalty or a bet with Satan that was the point, but rather the lesson Job would glean from this experience.

Now my only question is: What would you gain from killing me? ;)

my view on god's view of time is that it is in not a straight line or 'timeline' but a circle. god can see the past present and future all in one instant. or, past present and future are existing all at the same 'time'.

these are just my wacky crazy ideas anyway :D

God no longer has an agenda after creating humans. I mean he is the one who breathes life into humans and talks to the few who are willing to listen.

The fact of the matter is that God doesnt have to make choices. that part of his existance is over. he left humans with free will to do as they please. I believe he can see the future but i dont think that the future he sees is the same kind. i believe what he sees is a branch of futures thats gets smaller and smaller as we make decisions in our life. he has no control over what we choose. Thats obvious because not everyone worships him.

Tman, if you were to kill me it would be because you freely chose to kill me. While God would indeed know that you were going to choose to kill me, he didn't make you do it.

God would actually leave me with no choice about killing you if I did it. Since he created everything, he knows that his first action of creation will lead up to me killing you. The chain of events leading up to me killing you would have already been predetermined as soon as time began. The only way to make it my choice is that God didn't know what I was going to do.

And about that semi-hate comment, I had just finishing an argument with a person who was trying to convert me so I was a little angry. I was trying to tell her that it would be useless because God had already decided if I was going to heaven or hell.

iktoweya: You're missing the point. Whether or not God has any direct influence in our actions, he is omniscient. Therefore, he already knows what choices we are going to make. So regardless of what paths you take, it was really the only path you could have taken - since the future is already known.

if he wants to....

yes he does, or had the initial choice to decide weather he does or doesnt so he did.

we are in his image, so we do also

Yes, but technically no. Why would such a being intentionally take the inferior options if it didn't suit his objective/goals/whims.

This conflict goes back a lot further than most people realize. If God wanted to actively prevent you from killing me, he would need to: A, take away your free will or B, eliminate you from existance. If you think about time as an endless line where we are just a small dot, this could lead to infinite problems.

Suppose that you do kill me. That action would indeed be bad, but maybe you're going to have a son who will cure cancer. By eliminating you, God would have also eliminated the cure for cancer. Or perhaps my death will cause someone else to turn to God or to rethink the way they are living their life. By keeping me alive, God would have damned that person.

This is why I think that God does not take an active hand in the way we live our lives. I believe that time is a delicate thing, much like a game of Jenga, and if you remove one piece you are putting the entire structure at risk.

Interestingly enough, I do not believe that this limits God in any way, nor does it limit your free choice. You can choose to kill me or not kill me, but God just so happen's to know what you are going to choose and has already planned to compensate for that. Once again, its like in the Matrix where the Oracle knew what Neo was going to do but Neo still had to choose to do it.

LOL, even I had to laugh at that one.

Don't know if anyone's read this, but I think it's a beautiful explanation:

Smullyan's "Is God a Taoist?"

Though messing with time, as in God removes from existance some person, would cause changes the way you described, I do not see them as "problems." Further, given that not getting rid of someone would change the universe in the same manner, the net effect is nothing. God makes it as though someone never existed: stuff happens, God doesn't do anything: stuff happens. So this does nothing to support the existance/nonexistance of God, nor does it suggest that God does or does not mess with the universe as described.

Killconey,

Your missing the underlying problem. In God's mind, vision, whatever, you have already been killed if I "decide" to kill you. Its not me deciding, its me going along a certian path because the outcome of my life has been seen and decided at the beginning of time.

Oh no. You're deciding to go along the path. Its just that its really annoying and frustrating trying to figure out why you're going along the path. And it hasn't been decided since the beginning of time, it was simply compensated for at the beginning of time.

I've always thought of god as being apart from our world anyway. I believe that there is a god, yes. But I believe that that god started everything then said "go play now" so that his perception of time and all that is much different than ours. I just don't think he cares enough.

Kill Coney, First off you shouldn't assume that God doesn't take an active stance in some situations. If He does have free will, then his free will does allow him to interject and stop you from doing something.

Also with that said, God is all knowing so he would already know that by killing you he stopped the cure for cancer. Actually who's to say that he doesn't do this all the time?

I am going to play devils-advocate, and argue that if God does know everything from everywhen, Then, why did he create it in the first place, How did Noah talk him into changing his plans and allow him to build the ark and restart the whole thing when God was prepared to destroy it all?

God in time
 

God first of all is the creator of all that is. Regardless of one's definition of time, it is still something made, or at least attached to something made, (as in the definition that Time is the measurement of motion.) God is outside of time, it is something made by Him, so there is not a then, hereafter, or any of that. God simply is; we need to apply times to Him because of our deficient reason, and understanding.

He is the first Will. Where we would apply Free Will to ourselves, it doesn't hold for Him. Free will in the cases of such things as doing right and wrong isn't applicable to God, because he is the First and highest Good, his reason has no fault, he is simple and perfect.

(I made this reply somewhat late in the discussion, so I am not certain if I've added anything to it, yet. Sorry for that.)

If God is perfect then he does not have free will, he must be perfect.

Some of you seem to be missing one part of the issue, in treating events as endings. Keep in mind that omniscience indicates knowing everything - not just the end result, but why that result was obtained, how it was obtained, etc. If you were to kill, God would already know exactly how you would do it - all the way down to the motion of every subatomic particle in existence for every instant during the murder.

God doesn't have to do anything to remove 'free will', and if he does, he knew he was going to do it since the 'moment' he existed. Just by knowing every occurance, every twitch every person has ever made, every motion of every insect, every little detail in the universe, at all times simultaneously, we no longer have real 'choice.' We believe we choose to do something, but God already knows we would do it, and since he knew, it was the only possible outcome. Whether God actually physically affects our world is irrelevant to this discussion.

Kyo raises a good point. As sad as it may be, I'm sure the world will go on turning even after Tman144 finally submits to God's will and kills me.

cybermike, you're playing the devil's advocate too? Crap! Now neither one of us will get anywhere.

It almost hurts my head thinking about this. But I think there's too many variables in our environment, and when we make a decision, it's not really predecided.

if you know the future, you CAN change it (if you want).

if you can change the future you cannot know the future.

i don't think its completely necessary to assume that since God may know all our actions that we have no choice. Just because I know my roommate won't wash the dishes doesn't mean that he doesn't have the choice to wash the dishes in the first place. Granted, I don't "know" he won't in the sense that I'm completely certain. But, maybe God is so in tune (more so than i am w/my roommate) with the universe that he is able to "know" these things w/out actually infringing on our ability to make a choice.

There is also a good chance that we are not able to comprehend God's perspective on time, especially with the assumptions made about God in this particular discussion.

hmm...

You're still missing the point. If someone knows, with absolute certainty, what you are going to do, what choice do you have?

Consider this: Given some event X, you have choices A, B, and C. Now, God knows (and has known since time immemorable), that you will pick A. Where are your choices? You will pick A. Sure, you have the 'choice' of A, B, and C - but in reality you had no choice at all.

The misconception is that God needs to actually do something to take away our free will. In other words, he has to actively steer the course of events by directly (through mind control or gentle suggestion, or whatever means God deems necessary) manipulating people. This is not true at all. Simply by knowing everything (and doing nothing), God has made our 'free will' and our 'choice' a happy illusion.

i'm not sure that i'm missing the point as much as disagreeing w/yours.

i understand your argument, but i just do not agree w/you on this point. foreknowledge of action does not necessarily dictate the action itself. i'm not sure if there is anyway to breach the divide on this issue, though i'm open to any additional ways to look at it.

Knowing something will happen does not cause that thing to happen. Look at the soothsayer in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar. The soothsayer knew that Caesar was going to be killed and warned Caesar to beware. Caesar did not beware and was killed. Did the soothsayer somehow cause Caesar to die? No. He simply knew it would happen. Just because God knows we're going to do something doesn't mean that he is causing it and doesn't mean that he hasn't provided other options. All it means is that we made a choice.

The same holds true for God's free will, but in a much more complicated way. God has many options for what he could do, but he has made his choice and he will hold true to that. Obviously the fact that God can see himself or a person choosing to do something means that that person has chosen to do something, even if the time for that event hasn't come yet.

Yes, it does. If Gods knows everything thats going to happen, hes actually looking at it like its the past, its already happened. Did I cause Hiltler to lose WWII? No, but because we know the outcome there was no altenative. At the time it seemed like Hitler could win, but now we know he didn't so there was no way he could have won. I know that probally doesn't make sense, but try and think of it as God is really in the future and looking at today as if it were history.

I guess the answer to my orginal question is that God is the only one with free will because he created everything and he is the one who chooses how history plays out.

Cause is irrelevant. It doesn't matter if God 'causes' anything - you'll notice I explicitly say that God doesn't have to do anything to remove our free will.

This sounds snobbish, perhaps, but I really don't see what is so hard to understand. If you flip a coin, but already know how it's going to land, it might as well be a one-sided coin - it won't, absolutely, 100% will not land the other way. There is no chance, no way, no how - because you already know what is going to happen. If it did go the other way, then you didn't really know - and we're assuming that God does.

The soothsayer knew Caesar was going to die, therefore Caesar has no choice but to die. He has to die, there is no other possible outcome. And not only does he have to die, but he has to die in the exact manner, at the exact time, etc.

If you know that something is going to happen, obviously it will happen. Where is the 'choice' in that? Choice has become just a meaningless word. Sure, we 'made a choice' - nobody is explicitly 'forcing' us to do anything - but really, since somebody already knows what we are going to do, we have no choice at all.

This is simple guys ... the discussion should have been over a week ago.

I agree that if god was omniscient free will would be somewhat the joke. It would also seem to rob existence of any purpose aside from providing god with some massive interactive reality entertainment system that was, at its very beginning, a rerun.
However i think that it is very possible for god to not be omniscient. In which case, free will would belong to everyone.

kyo,

if it really is that easy, i suggest you drop by every philosophy department in the world and tell them the good news. :)

the fact is that it isn't an easy issue and some of the best philosophical minds have spent years trying to figure this out.

You're good, playing that "other people are still discussing the issue" card.

If "the fact is that it isn't an easy issue," show me where my reasoning is flawed. Don't just tell me that "the best philosophical minds have spent years trying to figure this out" and leaving it there without any kind of backup or example.

So, tell me. How am I wrong?

kyo,

tell you how you are wrong? wow, you're completely missing the thrust of a philosophical discussion. i can't tell you you're wrong in the sense that you would be wrong if you told me the capital of texas were philadelphia. i can only express disagreement in your approach to the problem, which i've already done by posting an alternate viewpoint. we're coming from differing basic assumptions about time and God's temporal nature.

your reasoning may or may not have flaws, but much of it depends on the assumptions and baggage you (and everyone else) brings to the discussion. and yes, i do think its pertinent that everyone else is wrestling with the issue. my backup is the fact that someone thought it necessary to start a discussion about this line of thought, so it must be unresolved. my example is my own humble contribution to this thread, as well as millenia of philosophical dissertations on the subject expressing so many ideas.

- I am trying to find a satisfactory, logical answer to a posed question. What do you believe the point to be?

- Your alternate viewpoint contains flaws which I have already addressed - several times, and you have failed to defend your views.

- Which assumptions and baggage are you referring to?

- The problem with your final argument is that all of the philosophy departments of the world are not currently participating in this discussion, therefore, we have no more fuel for our discussion because we have ironed out our final answer. Until someone is able to challenge this answer in an objective fashion (say, members of some philosophy department), it is meaningless to say that this discussion can't be over just because other people (who are elsewhere and are not participating in this discussion) haven't finished working through it themselves. In other words, the problem may be deeper than we think, but if none of the participants can come up with a better answer, we are done.

- As for this: "There is also a good chance that we are not able to comprehend God's perspective on time, especially with the assumptions made about God in this particular discussion." I believe God's perspective on time to be irrelevant. He knows all - regardless of time, space, or any other parameter. It doesn't matter at all how God sees time, or what time really is - because however actions happen in 'time', God knows what they are.

- In case it is somehow not yet clear to you, I will address your plate washing example in more detail. If you know, for a fact (not just from experience - ie, "He never washes the dishes," etc.) that your friend will not wash the dishes, than there is no possible way that he could wash them. He will, with 100% probability, 'choose' not to wash the dishes. Choosing with 100% probability is equivalent to not having a choice. If you flip a coin and know, for a fact, that it will come down heads, the coin may as well be one-sided. There is absolutely no way that it will come down tails - because you already know that it will come down heads.

Show me a flaw in this reasoning and we will have more to discuss.

Here's a flaw.
How can you work based on the assumption that god knows and understands all? If god knew all, what would be the point of any of this? If you are basing this on some sort of logic, what is logical about creating an entire universe out of some pre-existential ether if you already know what is going to happen down to the last detail?
I think it may be that god seems to be all knowing because we know so little. The same way that i'm sure my cat thinks that i know all, because of its limited intelligence and my comparatively great intelligence, but that doesn't make me all knowing. The idea that god knows all just doesn't fit in logically with the ways that god has supposedly behaved historically.

Nope, end of story.

We cannot begin to comprehend anything even close to God.

We are monkeys with big heads.

thanks filtherton, thats exactly what i am talking about.

i don't necessarily agree with (filtherton), but there is a another viewpoint that shows flaws in kyo's argument. thats not to say that either one is right or wrong, but it shows how theory's are based on presuppositions that aren't necessarily shared by all in the discussion. kyo seems to be arguing points 6-10 (which may be valid in his assumed scenario), but some of the rest of us disagree with parts of 1-5. thanks for a post free of condescension. pleasant change of pace.

Actually, at the rate we're going, I wouldn't be surprised if God starts asking us how stuff works.

irate, I especially enjoy how you continue to refuse to state exactly what you think, rather than going on about how someone else's logic is flawed because of presupposition. If you believe I am incorrect, then produce for me your own theory for us to discuss.

As for God being all-knowing, that was the beginning assumption of this thread (see the first post):

"If God knows everything thats going to happen..."

Therefore, if God is all knowing then free will does not exist. The scope of this thread encompasses only this point - and no one has successfully argued otherwise. I believe God is omnipotent by definition - otherwise God would simply be someone who is really powerful; not that much of a philosophical leap up from humans. Taken in that context, God could very easily be a member of an alien race who is performing a biological experiment with our universe. Somehow this does not strike me as the image of God that His worshippers have envisioned.

However, for the sake of argument, let us consider the case where God is not all-knowing. Where, then, is the problem? If God is not all-knowing, then what we do is entirely our own choice, provided God does not actively interfere. If the future is not yet written, there is nothing to dictate exactly which course the present shall take, besides the boundaries of the 'possible' and the 'probable.'

The problem the way you have posed it, then, degenerates into a discussion of whether God is all-knowing or not, and frankly, I believe it impossible to form any kind of logical conclusion to such a question.

I look at God as a 12th dimensional being. Therefore, he can see our universe (time included) as one single object, finite. Therefore, he can know everything about it. However, this does not necessarily mean he knows everything about himself and the universe according to his dimensional perspective.

Does God have Free Will?

More than I have! As such, the degree to which God has free wiill is academic to me -- I can't know the difference.

I think this is a great answer :-P.

god created everything you know, when you write a program on the computer are you bound by the for loop and if else statements?

Because thats what it says in the Bible. If were going to have a discussion based on a God described in the Bible, we should probally use its definition.

God may already know what we will do, yet he does not control you into doing it. Because He gave Us Free Will and so His Free Will IS Our Free Will. He created Us with Free Will, therefore, even though He always knows everything (past/present/future) which is all really happening simultaneously, that He does not get in the way of Our Free Will and Loves Us unconditionally no matter what choice we made. There is no bad choice or good choice, but consider it to be your Highest Choice verses a "Slight Error in Judgement". That's how we learn, experience, and grow.

P.S. Read my sig.

- Please read the past discussion to see why your reasoning is inherently flawed.

- If, after you have read, you have a logical and coherent counter-argument that is based on more than simply fervent belief, then, why, I believe we shall entertain one another.

[/B}

Exactly... that being said though

God has free will because he decides what he wants to happen and makes it happen. This is the highest expression of free will.

There is a difference between knowing the future and deciding it. If I watch a runner come to a fork in the road, see what path he chooses and then travel back in time to watch it again without changing the situation at all I know what path he will take. My knowledge does not change his will at all. He still follows the same mental decision process and comes to the same decision of his own free will. Ive just seen it before.

God's perfection as it is defined in contemporary Christian mythology is a state of being not a state of consciousness. God could change his state of being to imperfection, which he did when Jesus was born as God in human form. Jesus could have sinned but chose not to by will because he had a mission. Just like God has free will because he creates the future by his own design.

Well, there are, in fact, many different religions and spiritual perspectives in this world.
Ignoring that fact, the bible says a great many things which contradict a great many other things in the bible. Unless you believe that the bible is actually the directly quoted words of the christian god-or someone possessed by the christian god- you know that it was in fact written by the flawed human hand.
Furthermore, if you already know everything, what is the point of doing anything? What is the motivation of a god who knows everything?
I agree with kyo, in that if god is all knowing free will doesn't exist. But if, according to your definition of god, free will doesn't exist than why does consciousness exist? Lacking free will, we are all basically robots waiting to die.

Kyo- take this opportunity to listen to yourself, not others. Then you will realize so much more.

So, a belief in an all-knowing God devoids life of meaning? I'm going to have to use this next time some people come to my door and tell me I'm going to hell.

Well you are damned either way.

If god is omniscient then what is the point of all this if god knows the outcome before existence? Why create the world if the knowledge of every single event is there?

If god is not omniscient then…my god is, and my god can kick your god’s ass because he will be able to see the punches from a mile away. So I say you convert quietly before I bring a crusade/jihad on yo ass!

Well, arguing within these parameters, possible futures don't matter. If there is one best way, and god always does things the best way, then god has no free will. If it is possible to predict with 100% accuracy what a person/thing will do, then how can that thing have free will?

Ultimately, though, this argument defines god as some sort of entity that's sentient in the same way that we are (barring omniscience and omnipotence), which I think is erroneous.

Possibly to experience Himself through Us? And that we recreate Him in every moment? No one can know themselves fully unless they experience fully. He may know what may happen, but He also knows that He can be experienced in infinite ways. We are His tools- and we are His creators.

^^^^oops, that was me. Forgot to sign out of my husband's name.....

Incorrect. Omniscience includes knowledge of one’s experience in all possibilities. Even if god could make himself non-omniscient in order to get the thrill of unknown experience such an act would be pointless; because an omniscient being would already know what the experience as a non-omniscient being would be like.

ok, what if "God" split Himself up into little pieces (us)? Just like splitting an atom........."God" IS Omniscient because He experiences Himself-through us.
In order to know your Self, to know what "You are" you must have what "You are not". This is God's way of knowing.
And even if He is omniscient, couldn't He still choose to experience Himself, even if He knew the outcomes?

We're not talking about whether or not god wants to experience himself, we're talking about free will. Also, it seems like you're saying that god's omniscient because he created us, ergo god's omniscience depends on our existence, which wouldn't make sense of an all-powerful diety. If omniscience or omnipresence is an inherent dietal quality, then a diety would not need to do anything to know itself.

God has to keep his promises, because he is perfect...does that mean he doesn't have free will? I dont really know, I assume because he made the promise, that that was his freewill to do so.
Having freewill doesn't mean a choice between right/wrong always...but rather two ways, each independant, and of course not wrong.

I hope I am not hijacking this thread, but omniscience does tie into free will so I guess it is relevant.

:::OshnSoul:::,

Omniscience is infinite knowledge. It is knowledge of everything past, present and future. Omniscience also means having knowledge of all possibilities and their past, present and future.

As god is infinite he is able to experience infinity. God's omniscience means that god already has knowledge of the experience of infinity. Now omniscient knowledge would not be as our knowledge. Our memory is vague and corrupt; while omniscient knowledge would be the equivalent of the experience. An omniscient being already knows what the experience would be like down to every single detail in all possibilities.

"In order to know your Self, to know what "You are" you must have what "You are not".

That would be a contradiction of omniscience, as one would already know the experience of not having omniscience.

“Couldn't He still choose to experience Himself, even if He knew the outcomes?”

Yes an omniscient god could, though the drive behind this would be questionable. As god would already have the knowledge of experiencing things with the knowledge of the outcome.

It’s rather perplexing; I don’t pretend to have the answers.

I can't pretend to have the answers, either- but I know within that we all do have the answers. They are not just lying around out there waiting for us to find them.
Ok, so- Does God have Free Will? Well, if you do believe that God gave us Free Will, then He would have that Free Will to give us. He can't give us something He doesn't have (and He has (is) everything, therefore He has given us everything.)
Now, so that this may make a little more sense- (this is my Truth, just stating it, not expecting you to make it your Truth)
God's Free Will, then, is Our Free Will. Hence, we share this Free Will equally. It's like bearing a child and giving them your traits or looks.
Now- even though God may be all-knowing, He still has the Free Will to choose to experience everything. He decided that what a better way to experience it than to create offspring and have Himself be experienced through a physical manner.
You can know that if you drop a ball, it will bounce back up, but you don't know the "feeling" of it until you actually experience doing it. And there are infinite outcomes of the ball bouncing, depending on how you let it bounce, where you bounce it, and what you do when it comes back up. God knows all of that, yet chose to experience it all to "feel" it all.
Now, what may not make sense yet, is if humans have made the choice to kill, then I'm saying that God also chosen that? Well, yes, in a sense. God will not hinder on our free will to choose. Yet God would make the Highest Choice (by not killing?) but that we don't listen to that Highest Choice, often ignoring it. He lets us make these choices in order for us to experience and evolve on our own pace. If He told us what to do, we wouldn't have free will, and He wouldn't either. Then there would be no sense in the physical experience of Life. God just communicates with us in every moment of every day- and the number one way He chooses to do that (the most effective) IS experience.
And, as far as my quote: In order to know your Self, to know what "You are" you must have what "You are not".
God is all- All that Is and All that Is Not. but He wanted to experience the polarities of Himself. Therefore, that is exactly what we are doing. Experiencing Who We Are and Who We Are Not. And God is experiencing All of that through us.
Don't you think that's possible? That God chose to experience Himself, even if He is omniscient? Afterall, He is God. Why can't God Be and Do anything and everything? Then He wouldn't be omnipotent.

You know for while there I almost bought Sho Nuff’s argument.

Then I realized something. How does something without free will know that it doesn’t have it?

Free will depends on the ability to choose. Yet this ability to choose will not be exercised if there is only one path to take. If one knows what a person is going to do then one gives that person only one path to take.

From the person’s perspective it may seem that free will is in effect and indeed the person will be making a choice; a choice that is already determined by the existence just one option. The other paths become an allusion, for there is only one possible choice.

This becomes even more self-evident if one acquires the knowledge of what choice oneself will make. If one has such knowledge then (unlike the movies) the future cannot be changed. Otherwise it one would have knowledge of an outcome, rather then a choice.

So if god is omniscient, then god has knowledge of all choices, therefore god has the power to choice, yet has just one path to chose from.

So in my view Kyo's argument retains the upper hand.



:::OshnSoul:::,
An omniscient being cannot say: “Gee, I wonder what it would be like to experience being a human?” An omniscient god would already know. I think that you are looking at it from a limited human perspective. Our imperfect memory cannot replicate an experience in all its detail. An omniscient deity on the other hand would have perfect knowledge of an experience, knowledge that would be equal to the real experience. We should start a new thread or something on the motivations of god. =D



Finally I offer a new argument against a god with free will.

God is supremely good. If a god is supremely good then god cannot make the choice of evil. Therefore god has limited free will.

^^^^Where did I say that??? In no way did I mention that an omniscient God was curious or wondered- I said that God CHOSE to experience Himself. Please read carefully.
He Knows Everything, yet CHOSE/CHOOSES to experience it fully. Does that make sense?

But why would an omniscient being choose to experience something when its omniscience makes it just as if it already did? I think that's what Mantus is trying to say.

The difference here is that our human perception of this is that we have "forgotten" all of this- all of what we know- and we are here to "remember" it. Therefore, we don't think in terms of an omniscient being, so it is hard for us to imagine that "God" would choose to do that.
I am not out to prove anything here- only trying to broaden the minds of others and consider that:
God is ALL. God is All that Is and All that Is Not. God is the Essence of EVERY SINGLE grain of Life Itself and that God is Infinite. Humans have a hard time comprehending the magnitude of "God's" Being. That we can't understand things like His Free Will and His Choice to experience Himself.
Let's Look at it this way:
Billions of years ago- There's God- just the Essence of Him with no Earth, no Humans, no Living things, no anything.....He knows everything of Himself- that is His essence that is just BEing, yet He's getting "bored" just BEing. He wants to create. He wants to Experience Himself in magnitudes and infinite planes and levels and forms and dimensions of his Being. God said "Let there be Life" and BANG (as we know it the Big Bang Theory) where everything is created with one Big Bang. Life is created. His "offspring" was born.
You ask why? I ask WHY NOT? It's GOD!! God can do anything! If God wants to experience Himself, then He will! Why does it have to be questioned? We are still also thinking in terms of us being seperate from God- that God is superior and that God is an outward source from Us- out there....somewhere.....Everything He created is of Him.

We are the essence of God, therefore, there is no need to consider God seperate from us. Also, Viewing (experiencing) Himself in infinite forms and ways creates such an Infinite Universe so magnificent, it is hard for us to fathom the magnitude-that is why we question it.

There is a difference is knowing all and knowing the experience of all. That is where some people get confused. Omniscience is knowing all, but that is seperate from experience of knowing all. God at one time KNEW He was God- that He was Infinite and Omnipotent. So- He chose to experience BEing Infinite and Omnipotent.

I think free will is defined as the ability to choose one's course of action free from outside influence. Since sin is to miss the mark, I would claim that it is analogous to not perfectly effecting one's will.

Thus, a deity with perfect free will would be free from the constraints that restrict one's will. The inability to commit evil (the opposition to a good will) doesn't limit one's will, but rather allows the ability to effect one's will perfectly. I don't agree that diminishes one's freedom--it actually allows it.

You would first have to prove the existence of good and evil. Last i heard the good and evil were in the eyes of the beholder.

So gods has freedom but god’s will is supremely strong. Very enlightening, thank you smooth.

Though this brings up a question. Is supreme free will determined by the lack of all outside as well as internal influence or just outside influence? Certainly if one has an inclination, that inclination cannot be the result of oneself.

If god is supremely good from the start then he is controlled by an inclination. On the other hand if god’s goodness were a choice, then god would not be supremely good by nature. This brings us to the question of omnipotence. If god gives himself a command to be supremely good, can he break it? Why would he break it? Well since there is no natural inclination to be good, god can just as well be evil, as a being without any inclination is simply neutral.

Could not agree more filtherton and certainly one could not exist without the other. That doest mean I cannot use the common theoretical descriptions of a theoretical being to come up with theoretical arguments :D

Ooh, I hope I don't get too metaphysical for my own good :)

Good question.

I should have defined a free will as one which is uninfluenced by any forces outside the will itself.

I define sin or evilness as a contradiction of that will--nothing more. I don't define it in terms of the subjective judgements of the consequences of the act.

Therefore, I claim that a free will can not (or maybe will not by its own accord) go against itself (i.e., sin).

There is no natural inclination to be good or evil. Those are our subjective interpretations. In fact, the christian and Jewish Scriptures plainly state that their deity created both the "good" and the "evil" to effect the deity's will.

The only natural inclination, as I understand it, is to follow one's will if one is free to do so. No command to be "good" exists to be given and, as such, no command could or would be broken.

EDIT: I'm not being facetious but I am not willing to cede the point that one's inclination can not be the result of one's nature (which is how I would understand the phrase, "the result of oneself"). If you have a logical proof of that, I would like to see it. I'm not sure where you would derive it from, however, because I think the Western ethicists would claim that inclinations do come from a thing's nature.