Question to christians - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Dude · 08-22-2003, 06:50 PM

you have to read the article to know where the question is coming from. if you already know what's going on in the article, just skip ahead to the question.

i'll boldface parts of the article that pertains to my question.

Quote:

Justices overrule Moore; monument ordered out

08/22/03

STAN BAILEY
News staff writer

MONTGOMERY - The eight associate justices of the Alabama Supreme Court voted unanimously Thursday to overrule Chief Justice Roy Moore and order a monument to the Ten Commandments removed from the state judicial building rotunda.

The justices directed Graham George, manager of the judicial building, "to take all steps necessary ... as soon as practicable" to comply with U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson's Aug. 5 order to remove the monument from "non-private areas" of the building.

Justice Gorman Houston, the Supreme Court's senior associate justice, said the justices left it up to George's discretion whether to remove the 5,280-pound granite monument from the building or move it elsewhere in the building.

"It has to be left to his discretion because we don't know what areas would bear that load," said Houston. Efforts to reach George were unsuccessful.

Attorney General Bill Pryor notified Thompson of the justices' order Thursday and at a press conference praised them for doing their duty. He said he hopes their action removes the risk that the state will be hit by fines.

Thompson has scheduled a telephone conference with Pryor and lawyers in the case for this morning. The Southern Poverty Law Center, representing plaintiffs who sued to remove the monument, have asked Thompson to hold Moore in contempt of court, and the judge has said he would consider fining the state if the monument was not removed by Wednesday.

Civil disobedience:

Moore's supporters, 22 of whom were arrested for refusing to leave the judicial building Thursday night, plan to gather at the federal courthouse today and find the federal court in contempt of God's court, a spokesman said.

The Rev. Patrick Mahoney, director of the Washington-based Christian Defense Coalition, said his group is prepared to maintain a prayer vigil and rallies at the judicial building steps "for as long as it takes," using civil disobedience to block removal of the monument.

"The world is now watching to see what Montgomery and the state of Alabama are doing about religious liberty," said the Rev. Rob Schenck, president of the National Clergy Council and one of those jailed on trespassing charges for refusing to leave the judicial building at closing time Wednesday.

Moore made a brief statement to the crowd on the steps of the judicial building Thursday afternoon, saying his fight to acknowledge God would continue.

The chief justice said he was disappointed that the other justices overruled him, and he accused Thompson of putting himself above the law and above God. Moore said he was "ordered to do something I cannot do, and that is violate my conscience."

"If the `rule of law' means to do everything a judge tells you to do, we would still have slavery in this country," said Moore.

He said the Rev. Martin Luther King "is proof enough that great men do follow the rule of law and not the rule of man."

To heavy applause from the crowd, Moore said, "I will not violate my oath. I cannot forsake my conscience. I will not neglect my duty, and I will never, never deny the God upon whom our laws and our country depend."

http://www.al.com/news/birminghamnew...4374816120.xml

Question :

what do these protestors think they can achieve by praying in front of the courthouse??

is praying their form of civil disobedience? i really dont think it'll get them anywhere and the rock will be removed regardless of their actions.

you can compare this to MLK, but there was something that could be achieved from his actions (and something was achieved).

by these people praying in front of the courthouse, i dont see anything that could be achieved.

anyway, i'm looking @ this thru an the eyes of an atheist and i'm wondering what y'all think.

chavos · 08-22-2003, 07:06 PM

MLK had strong scriptural backing for what he was trying to do. Moore, i'm not so sure of. Setting up shrines isn't usually considered a good thing.

More aptly, i don't think that the removal of the protestors will be as photogenic as any of the civil rights violence....they'll take them out as calmly as they can, ticket 'em, and jackhammer the monument. The power of resistance like this is not in the act, but what it inspires. I don't think this will inspire sufficient outrage to reverse the course of events.

PS...originality in titles is VERY good. just a thought...

The_Dude · 08-22-2003, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by chavos
PS...originality in titles is VERY good. just a thought...

i'll remember that for the next time.

Lebell · 08-22-2003, 07:43 PM

Strangely enough, I will have to echo some of the atheists on this board when I say that this type of Christian is using Christianity for a crutch and frankly, is looking for martyrdom (even in the form of an hour or two in the local pokey).

To me, a true Christian speaks out when real injustice is being done and does not go looking for something to be offended at.

They recognize and respect that other people do not share their faith and that the government is really an entity outside of their faith (this is NOT the same as shelving your religion if/when you become a public official).

So in short, I do not think much of these people in Alabama or how they are professing their 'faith'.

Jdermit101 · 08-22-2003, 08:37 PM

As a Christian, I think he's making a fool of himself :\

Do I agree with what he's being forced to do? No, I don't see anything wrong with having the ten commandments on the wall, and I wouldn't mind if there were any other religious items on that wall as well, but if he believes that protesting like this will get him anywhere, he's wrong.

MSD · 08-22-2003, 09:58 PM

What I would do is ask for support from those who opposed the removal of the statue, use donations to purchase a plot of land from the town either in front of, or across from the courthouse, and pay to have the statue moved there. Put a plaque on it that tells anyone who passes by and reads it that I think that we can all get positive guidance from what is written there, and states that it is placed on private land to spread that message.

docbungle · 08-22-2003, 10:49 PM

I am so tired of stuff like this taking up our thought process. The media shouldn't even tell us about it. We shouldn't even care.

People like these people operate on the belief that "leading by example" will change the world. Well, it won't. You won't convert anyone. No one will change the way they think just because you made an ass out of yourself in front of a courthouse. The government won't fall to it's knees under the excruciating pain of your protest.

Whether the ten comandments are posted in that place or not has no relevance to anything at all whatsoever. If it is posted, so what; it changes nothing. If it is not posted, so what; it changes nothing.

*bad taste in mouth*

lykwen · 08-23-2003, 12:01 AM

I'm very sorry that some people just can't tolerate the differences in people and don't really understand that the USA is supposed to stand for justice for _all_. The tax money of athiests, jews, muslims, buddhists, et al paid for that rock. A rock which has nothing to do with their beliefs and in some cases it's symbology goes right against it.

Many (most?) christians are perfectly happy acknowledging that different people believe different things and don't feel the need to have their belief scrawled over everything or forced upon people who don't want it. Unfortunately people are always characterised by their worst representatives, so now when most people think about christians they think of biggoted assholes who won't stop until everyone is christian.

Something else which seriously bothers me is the persecution complex. Just because people complain that this stone is there, many vocal christians jump up and scream "Hey, you're unfairly targeting us as christians and trying to force us to stop practicing our religion!"
No. You aren't being persecuted. They only reason why you were singled out is because you're violating the law. Maybe other christians aren't violating the law and they're left alone.

Just to make things clear, I am agnostic and most certainly not a christian. I respect other's beliefs and would defend their right to belive and practice whatever they want, just as long as it isn't pressed upon me and I am not required to fund or partake in their religion.

http://www.morons.org is a great website which posts news relating to this topic and others like it.

Also, I hate the smileys.

WhoaitsZ · 08-24-2003, 12:30 AM

I am a Christian and I believe he is doing wrong.

protest is great and they should do it again, but at the moment his problem is offensive to other people. this means he needs to stopp.

to me.... ps itt's 3:30 am heh

prosequence · 08-26-2003, 06:49 PM

"Question :

what do these protestors think they can achieve by praying in front of the courthouse?? "

I think they are a)trying to atract attention for their cause
b)Praying for God's intervention or influence.

As for what I thik about it personally... not sure...
I think it should stay... too much time and peoples tax dollars have gone into it already. However, I think the Bonehead should have to apologise and reimburse the public for the cost of having it put in.

hobo · 08-28-2003, 09:42 AM

I read somewhere that he had it put up in the middle of the night so that nobody would see him do it and be able to stop him.

If that is true, he wanted to have this in the media and planned the whole thing as a stunt.

The_Dunedan · 08-28-2003, 06:25 PM

This obsession with a physical object could be interpreted as Idolatry.
Paul ( I believe ) instructs Christians not to see martyrdom, and Jesus Himself instructed us not to be showy or ostentatious in our faith like "the Hypocrites, and the Pharisees. When you pray, close your door...they have already had their reward."
These people are, at best, misguided. At worst, they are precisely the sort of showy, flashy, hypocritical, legalist Pharisees that Jesus warned us against becoming. A sad state of affairs all around.

trudes1131 · 09-05-2003, 10:54 AM

Wow, I had heard a vague reference to that story, but hadn't delved into it much further until now.

Whatever happened to tolerance of other's religious beliefs, anyway? The ridiculous nature of some court proceedings stemming from America never ceases to amaze me. That's not to say it doesn't happen in other nations, but when your country dominates the global media these little incidents have a tendency to pop up in the place of similar, and often times more pressing, problems plaguing others.

I suppose that's besides the point, though.

Cheers to Chief Justice Moore.

Although I realize there's a fine line in supporting thoughts of the conscience, this is more of an issue of faith and the tendencies of man to regulate it in order to avoid an uproar amongst the general public.

I'm sure they view their protest less then an attempt to maintain the commandments and moreso as one to express their firm belief in what they represent. And really, I'd say that more than falls into that little 'Freedom of Speech' issue that finds itself in your nation's constituion.

Although, I'd give it another decade or so before that too is remedied in order to fit the needs of the handful of media conglomerates that will be supervising the nation. Especially given the FCC's recent rulings on the subject of American media ownership.

Strange days, indeed.

thespian86 · 09-05-2003, 03:56 PM

I am a christian as far as i know and i just recently learned that the bible says that christians should obey to the laws of the world and his laws. I'm not sure if I corectly "semi quoted" the verse but I have seen it. If he were a christain then he's breaking rules...

PKL2 · 09-07-2003, 05:21 AM

I am a Christian, but it is irrelevant that I am.

I think as a protest it is the same as any other. Unless you can rally a substansial amount of people (enough that decision makers become scared of their position) nothing ever gets done at a protest wether you march,sit, strike, or pray. Look at all the Anti-War protests that Occured earlier this year....they were in effect useless. The bottom line is that after you protest you can say that you opposed the decision, that you acted according to your conscience.

trudes1131 · 09-10-2003, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by PKL2
Look at all the Anti-War protests that Occured earlier this year....they were in effect useless. The bottom line is that after you protest you can say that you opposed the decision, that you acted according to your conscience.

Those two sentences seem to strongly contradict one another. Unless, of course, the following of one's conscience is believed to be "useless". I'd rather hope that's not the case.

08-22-2003, 07:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Lebell Cracking the Whip Location: Sexymama's arms...	Strangely enough, I will have to echo some of the atheists on this board when I say that this type of Christian is using Christianity for a crutch and frankly, is looking for martyrdom (even in the form of an hour or two in the local pokey). To me, a true Christian speaks out when real injustice is being done and does not go looking for something to be offended at. They recognize and respect that other people do not share their faith and that the government is really an entity outside of their faith (this is NOT the same as shelving your religion if/when you become a public official). So in short, I do not think much of these people in Alabama or how they are professing their 'faith'. __________________ "Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis The ONLY sponsors we have are YOU! Please Donate!

08-22-2003, 10:49 PM	#7 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	I am so tired of stuff like this taking up our thought process. The media shouldn't even tell us about it. We shouldn't even care. People like these people operate on the belief that "leading by example" will change the world. Well, it won't. You won't convert anyone. No one will change the way they think just because you made an ass out of yourself in front of a courthouse. The government won't fall to it's knees under the excruciating pain of your protest. Whether the ten comandments are posted in that place or not has no relevance to anything at all whatsoever. If it is posted, so what; it changes nothing. If it is not posted, so what; it changes nothing. bad taste in mouth __________________ Bad Luck City

08-23-2003, 12:01 AM	#8 (permalink)
lykwen Insane Location: Portland, Oregon, USA	I'm very sorry that some people just can't tolerate the differences in people and don't really understand that the USA is supposed to stand for justice for _all_. The tax money of athiests, jews, muslims, buddhists, et al paid for that rock. A rock which has nothing to do with their beliefs and in some cases it's symbology goes right against it. Many (most?) christians are perfectly happy acknowledging that different people believe different things and don't feel the need to have their belief scrawled over everything or forced upon people who don't want it. Unfortunately people are always characterised by their worst representatives, so now when most people think about christians they think of biggoted assholes who won't stop until everyone is christian. Something else which seriously bothers me is the persecution complex. Just because people complain that this stone is there, many vocal christians jump up and scream "Hey, you're unfairly targeting us as christians and trying to force us to stop practicing our religion!" No. You aren't being persecuted. They only reason why you were singled out is because you're violating the law. Maybe other christians aren't violating the law and they're left alone. Just to make things clear, I am agnostic and most certainly not a christian. I respect other's beliefs and would defend their right to belive and practice whatever they want, just as long as it isn't pressed upon me and I am not required to fund or partake in their religion. http://www.morons.org is a great website which posts news relating to this topic and others like it. Also, I hate the smileys. __________________ I. Lykwen Gerlsartopolous

08-26-2003, 06:49 PM	#10 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	"Question : what do these protestors think they can achieve by praying in front of the courthouse?? " I think they are a)trying to atract attention for their cause b)Praying for God's intervention or influence. As for what I thik about it personally... not sure... I think it should stay... too much time and peoples tax dollars have gone into it already. However, I think the Bonehead should have to apologise and reimburse the public for the cost of having it put in. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-28-2003, 06:25 PM	#12 (permalink)
The_Dunedan Junkie	This obsession with a physical object could be interpreted as Idolatry. Paul ( I believe ) instructs Christians not to see martyrdom, and Jesus Himself instructed us not to be showy or ostentatious in our faith like "the Hypocrites, and the Pharisees. When you pray, close your door...they have already had their reward." These people are, at best, misguided. At worst, they are precisely the sort of showy, flashy, hypocritical, legalist Pharisees that Jesus warned us against becoming. A sad state of affairs all around. __________________ "I personally think that America's interests would be well served if after or at the time these clowns begin their revolting little hate crime the local police come in and cart them off on some trumped up charges or other. It is necessary in my opinion that America makes an example of them to the world." --Strange Famous, advocating the use of falsified charges in order to shut people up.

08-22-2003, 07:06 PM	#2 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	MLK had strong scriptural backing for what he was trying to do. Moore, i'm not so sure of. Setting up shrines isn't usually considered a good thing. More aptly, i don't think that the removal of the protestors will be as photogenic as any of the civil rights violence....they'll take them out as calmly as they can, ticket 'em, and jackhammer the monument. The power of resistance like this is not in the act, but what it inspires. I don't think this will inspire sufficient outrage to reverse the course of events. PS...originality in titles is VERY good. just a thought...

08-22-2003, 08:37 PM	#5 (permalink)
Jdermit101 Tilted	As a Christian, I think he's making a fool of himself :\ Do I agree with what he's being forced to do? No, I don't see anything wrong with having the ten commandments on the wall, and I wouldn't mind if there were any other religious items on that wall as well, but if he believes that protesting like this will get him anywhere, he's wrong.

08-22-2003, 09:58 PM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	What I would do is ask for support from those who opposed the removal of the statue, use donations to purchase a plot of land from the town either in front of, or across from the courthouse, and pay to have the statue moved there. Put a plaque on it that tells anyone who passes by and reads it that I think that we can all get positive guidance from what is written there, and states that it is placed on private land to spread that message.

08-24-2003, 12:30 AM	#9 (permalink)
WhoaitsZ Crazy Location: right behind you...	I am a Christian and I believe he is doing wrong. protest is great and they should do it again, but at the moment his problem is offensive to other people. this means he needs to stopp. to me.... ps itt's 3:30 am heh

08-28-2003, 09:42 AM	#11 (permalink)
hobo Archangel of Change	I read somewhere that he had it put up in the middle of the night so that nobody would see him do it and be able to stop him. If that is true, he wanted to have this in the media and planned the whole thing as a stunt.

09-05-2003, 10:54 AM	#13 (permalink)
trudes1131 Upright	Wow, I had heard a vague reference to that story, but hadn't delved into it much further until now. Whatever happened to tolerance of other's religious beliefs, anyway? The ridiculous nature of some court proceedings stemming from America never ceases to amaze me. That's not to say it doesn't happen in other nations, but when your country dominates the global media these little incidents have a tendency to pop up in the place of similar, and often times more pressing, problems plaguing others. I suppose that's besides the point, though. Cheers to Chief Justice Moore. Although I realize there's a fine line in supporting thoughts of the conscience, this is more of an issue of faith and the tendencies of man to regulate it in order to avoid an uproar amongst the general public. I'm sure they view their protest less then an attempt to maintain the commandments and moreso as one to express their firm belief in what they represent. And really, I'd say that more than falls into that little 'Freedom of Speech' issue that finds itself in your nation's constituion. Although, I'd give it another decade or so before that too is remedied in order to fit the needs of the handful of media conglomerates that will be supervising the nation. Especially given the FCC's recent rulings on the subject of American media ownership. Strange days, indeed. Last edited by trudes1131; 09-05-2003 at 10:57 AM..

09-05-2003, 03:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
thespian86 change is hard. Location: the green room.	I am a christian as far as i know and i just recently learned that the bible says that christians should obey to the laws of the world and his laws. I'm not sure if I corectly "semi quoted" the verse but I have seen it. If he were a christain then he's breaking rules... __________________ EX: Whats new? ME: I officially love coffee more then you now. EX: uh... ME: So, not much.

09-07-2003, 05:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
PKL2 Upright	I am a Christian, but it is irrelevant that I am. I think as a protest it is the same as any other. Unless you can rally a substansial amount of people (enough that decision makers become scared of their position) nothing ever gets done at a protest wether you march,sit, strike, or pray. Look at all the Anti-War protests that Occured earlier this year....they were in effect useless. The bottom line is that after you protest you can say that you opposed the decision, that you acted according to your conscience.