Atheists Don't Exist - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

prosequence · 08-21-2003, 07:57 AM

hehehehe
...so thanks for joining me a new kind of twist/tilt.... I want to know if anyone can prove to me atheism exists? And what purpose does it serve?

XenuHubbard · 08-21-2003, 08:34 AM

So, we meet again...

Atheism exists. It has to, since Sixate exists, and Sixate is an atheist.

Atheism serves no purpose. It just exists.

Perhaps you meant to ask for proof that God doesn't exist...?

Be careful what you write in an eventual reply. I would refrain from trying to disprove the existance of a Moderator.

TIO · 08-21-2003, 09:47 AM

I am an atheist. My life is lived in the absence of the belief in any diety or preternatural force. I identify my religious conviction as atheism. Therefore, atheism exists.

Purpose? Why do I need one? I am an atheist because I sincerely believe that there is no God. Likewise, my belief that the sky is blue serves no purpose; as Xenu said, Atheism simply exists. Must every idea have a purpose?

But if you really want one, I'll give you this: The purpose for my beliefs is my need to understand the universe around me. It makes me more comfortable with my place in the world to know precicely where I stand in the Great Scheme of Things. I can look at a clothespeg, and wonder at all of the tiny coincidences that put this clothespeg in front of me at this time. I can understand that my actions are ultimately devoid of meaning to the uncaring universe, but that I still have a moral responsibility to my peers, and my belief that I am the sole judge of my worth gives me a frame of reference in which to construct and justify that moral code.

So now, prosequence, I put it to you to justify your question; to explain your purpose in making me write this response. On what grounds do you make your assertion that Atheism does not exist?

Dragonlich · 08-21-2003, 10:17 AM

prosequence, can you prove *you* exist? And what purpose would *you* serve, pray tell?

Ierre Il · 08-21-2003, 11:05 AM

Quit sniping at prosequence, he's without consequence =P
Now... to address TIO, of the TLA (forgive me my name japes, tis late at night and my mind rapidly degenerates into such folly...), One must wonder at the utility of a belief which is held because it is comfortable... Such a charge has been frequently leveled at religion, without a great deal of backing I might add, and here it is freely admitted by an atheist... but to the next point, or, in the order of your post, the previous point. In light of what you say concerning your wish to feel comfortable, can you accurately state that you understand your surroundings? An understanding for the sake of comfort is rarely understanding at all, and if you mean to say where you fit in the great scheme of things, what scheme is there, or any way of fitting at all? Surely there is no meaning, events are simply the results of, when you get right down to it, collisions of matter following certain laws. Yes, its an oversimplification, I know full well, I have considerable knowledge of various branches of physics if it matters, but it doesnt. The general gist of what I am saying stands, that there can be no "great scheme of things" if we take an entirely materialist reading of the universe. Nor, one might note, is there any value in understanding, or truth, if one can say there is such a thing, as all your understandings and beliefs are simply a certain configuration, effectively random, of neurons in a certain greyish mush. I think you put your finger on it perfectly when you use such words as coincidence and unmeaning. However, one wonders where, in such concepts, you find the idea of moral responsibility. This bouncing matter knows no morals, it is simply stuff (I cannot pass up the opportunity to use properly the word I abuse the most...). You can have no morals in the sense that our minds present them to us, as YOU are just stuff, and stuff, I might add, and indeed shall add, that is far less lasting than a lot of other stuff. You, in a shape that we would call you, cannot exist much longer than another hundred years or so, if you are exceptionally longlived. To address your final demand, the weight of evidence in such propositions usually lies on the positive. In other words, unless you justify your position beyond rebuttle, it is not accepted.
As an aside, XenuHubbard, you say that Atheism exists, because another entity possessing this attribute, namely, an atheist, exists. Now, does this necessarily and sufficiently imply that Atheism can exist independantly as a concept? I suppose that depends on whether we prescribe to Plato's theory of forms or not, but I imagine the question is rather irrelevant anyway, as thats not what either the original question, or your answer, meant...
Please forgive my flippancy and address the points I make, I have this irritating habit of letting my mind and fingers run when I'm tired. I imagine it irritates others even more than it irritates itself, and that is my only consolation...

sixate · 08-21-2003, 12:16 PM

I'm not even gonna get involved in this one.

docbungle · 08-21-2003, 12:19 PM

How can an atheist not exist? Don't carrots exist? Do christians exist? Do democrats exist? Republicans? Watermelons?

What are you talking about?

Mr. Spacemonkey · 08-21-2003, 12:34 PM

I don't even know how to respond to this. I mean . . . are you serious?

Of course they exist, i have met atheists so i know they exist.

edit: i sincerely hope that this was a joke or something. . . RIGHT?

HeAtHeN · 08-21-2003, 12:34 PM

*Pinches himself*

Yeah... I exist.

CSflim · 08-21-2003, 12:39 PM

no comment.

cowlick · 08-21-2003, 07:28 PM

Yes, Virginia, atheists don't exist.

And every good boy and girl has a mommy at home waiting for them with cookies and milk. And at night you can crawl into your warm comfy bed and be safe in the knowledge that nobody anywhere is tougher your daddy.

Charlatan · 08-21-2003, 07:40 PM

I am a solipsist so actually none of you exist...

virus · 08-21-2003, 07:41 PM

are you saying you don't think a sane person can truly believe they KNOW that nothing exists beyond them? everyone at least has a touch of agnosticism in them?

i dunno, if people can believe if you blow yourself up you get a bunch of virgin pussy, i guess you can believe your body absorbs enough information from the universe to believe there is nothing beyond it.

bermuDa · 08-21-2003, 09:03 PM

for every belief there is a belief that disagrees with it. Theism exists, therefore Atheism exists. As long as people identify with those beliefs, the beliefs themselves will exist.

TIO · 08-21-2003, 09:14 PM

Lerre, you're missing my point. I don't believe in Atheism because it makes me comfortable. Believing that I have some idea about how the universe works makes me comfortable; I would get the same comfort in Christianity or Islam or Buddhism. I believe in Atheism because I think it is the truth. I bother to believe in anything because that makes me comfortable.

As for the Great Scheme of Things; I believe that there is no Great Scheme of Things. Don't you think that belief pretty clearly defines what role I may or may not have in the GSoT?

And as to the moral code and unmeaning (nice word!): I believe that there is no absolute meaning, no absolute right or wrong. But from there, I have come to the conclusion that if my life means nothing to The Universe, then I'd best start making sure that my life is meaningful to myself and everyone around me. So I build myself an artifical moral code, and a sense of right and wrong, which helps me to live my life in a way which may end up having some subjective meaning.

Johnny Rotten · 08-21-2003, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TIO
I am an atheist. My life is lived in the absence of the belief in any diety or preternatural force. I identify my religious conviction as atheism. Therefore, atheism exists.

You could also say that your life is lived in the presence of the belief that there is no diety or preternatural force.

Atheism is not lack of belief. It is presence of a counter-belief. I'm personally agnostic, in the classic sense that I don't think it can be proven either way. But I believe (!) that atheism is no less a leap of faith than a system of belief. And it tends to be a sign of a lack of imagination

.

TIO · 08-22-2003, 04:39 AM

Johhny, you're taking the cop-out there. I agree, I can't prove that there is a God, and nobody can prove that there is, either. But I do believe that there isn't one. Now get off that fence.

prosequence · 08-22-2003, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
prosequence, can you prove *you* exist? And what purpose would *you* serve, pray tell?

On a Forum? No I cannot. My purpose on the forum is to learn and ask questions... oh, and have fun!

prosequence · 08-22-2003, 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by bermuDa
for every belief there is a belief that disagrees with it. Theism exists, therefore Atheism exists. As long as people identify with those beliefs, the beliefs themselves will exist.

Bermadude.... I kinda agree, except people tried to burn me whe I used that logic on another thread.
The concept of belief making something exist.....
Just so I don't pull you into agreement by mistake, I offered the thought that God Exists because people believe in Him.
It was amsuing how many people objected to the fact that just because you believe in something doesn't make it real. I thought it was kinda fun!!

prosequence · 08-22-2003, 08:52 AM

Ahh crap.... my over the shoulder buddy just enlightened me to the fact that I would also have a hard time proving I exist in real life not just on a Forum. Let's say I walk around saying I'm ....oh lets use... Dragonlich .... I tell people that I'm him/her, after a while people know me as him/her... does that make me dragonlich? If I'm an imposter, I can say I'm anyone... hard to tell otherwise. The "ahh crap" is that it throws a wrench into one of my favourite/fun arguements. I hate it when that happens!

Macheath · 08-22-2003, 09:34 AM

I don't exist.

Dragonlich · 08-22-2003, 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
On a Forum? No I cannot. My purpose on the forum is to learn and ask questions... oh, and have fun!

Ah, but if you cannot prove you exist, nobody can ever know for sure that "you" think atheism doesn't exist, now can we? After all... how can *you* think if there's no you to begin with?

Which leads to the obvious question: if, by some random event, your webserver starts asking weird questions like "do atheists exist", is it time to reboot?

bermuDa · 08-22-2003, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by prosequence
Bermadude.... I kinda agree, except people tried to burn me whe I used that logic on another thread.
The concept of belief making something exist.....
Just so I don't pull you into agreement by mistake, I offered the thought that God Exists because people believe in Him.
It was amsuing how many people objected to the fact that just because you believe in something doesn't make it real. I thought it was kinda fun!!

I understand what you mean but I didn't mean the existence of a belief system indicated the veracity of the beliefs themselves. I simply meant that the belief of atheism existed because there are atheists.. just as Islam exists because there are muslims, and christianity exists because there are christians.

I didn't mean to verify or falsify anyone's beliefs, but state that those beliefs exist as long as there are people who believe them. For instance, I don't believe there is a god, but my belief alone doesn't prove there is no god. It does, however, prove that atheism exists.

Ierre Il · 08-22-2003, 11:27 AM

(Note added after rest of post: If you can't be bothered reading my ramblings, my essential points are summarised at the end, as briefly as I can. If they seem unclear, try reading the parts of the ramble that relate, if you wish.)

Quote:

Originally posted by TIO
Lerre, you're missing my point. I don't believe in Atheism because it makes me comfortable. Believing that I have some idea about how the universe works makes me comfortable; I would get the same comfort in Christianity or Islam or Buddhism. I believe in Atheism because I think it is the truth. I bother to believe in anything because that makes me comfortable.

As an aside, it's not an L, it's an i, like the personal pronoun. My name ierre il, not king Lerre the second, means angry hedgehog in Old English, and is entirely irrelevant to our discussion.
I think perhaps you might also be comfortable with the belief that nothing can truly fall within the field of your understanding, which is more likely to be true. "I know that I know nothing"?

Quote:

Originally posted by TIO

As for the Great Scheme of Things; I believe that there is no Great Scheme of Things. Don't you think that belief pretty clearly defines what role I may or may not have in the GSoT?

In other words, none whatsoever. Thanks for clarifying.

Quote:

Originally posted by TLA
And as to the moral code and unmeaning (nice word!): I believe that there is no absolute meaning, no absolute right or wrong. But from there, I have come to the conclusion that if my life means nothing to The Universe, then I'd best start making sure that my life is meaningful to myself and everyone around me. So I build myself an artifical moral code, and a sense of right and wrong, which helps me to live my life in a way which may end up having some subjective meaning.

But subjective meaning is no meaning at all. I could call myself a tortoise, wander around the city believing I carry the world on my back, and attach to it meaning. I could attach to it all the meaning I have at my disposal. Does that mean ANYTHING in objective terms? No. Is there any point to it? No. If there is no objective meaning, and you try to convince yourself of your own subjective meaning, you are no less living in a fantasy than I would be if I took up my shell and headed for Central.

On the point of Atheism and Agnosticism, I think it's a fascinating distinction... While niether outright believes in God, Agnostics acknowledge that they know nothing, which is a nice start if you are going to learn anything, be it philosophy, metaphysics, science, ballet, whatever. If you think about it, it is an entirely philosophically indefensible position to hold that something absolutely does not exist, anywhere, unless it can be proved to be inherently self-contradictory (purple invisibility, anyone? =P). Maybe it is equally foolish to believe that something DOES exist, and it certainly is if one has no knowledge on the subject. Agnosticism would seem to be the best position to hold. An agnostic that is trying to find out more, even better. If they are truly looking, they can't find what isn't there, and if they do find it, they have found the only thing that can last... we all know physical stuff goes pretty quick. I would say devoting one's life to trying to find out if there is anything more would be the best way to spend it. If you find nothing, and die, and have achieved nothing in your life, so what? NOONE achieves anything in their life, objectively, if there is nothing but stuff. If you do find something, and it is something that really exists, that is the ONLY way they can achieve anything. Jesus stated it something like this (I'm not asking you to take this on authority because it's Jesus, that would assume my conclusion. I'm just giving you another way of putting it.): "The kingdom of God [the spiritual world, God, that which is more lasting than the physical world] is like a buried treasure in a field. If a man finds that treasure, he will go away and sell all he owns to buy the field." In the context I'm giving it, 'all he owns' may definitely be interpretted as far higher than it is. It's more like all he has is a similar field, perhaps a little larger, but growing nothing... just a dry, dusty patch of earth, from which he can gain nothing but the knowledge it is his. Then he swaps that for the very similar one with the treasure. I'm not entirely sure why I quoted this parable... it seemed appropriate at the time... but perhaps it gives you another way of visualising what I'm saying. You don't have anything to lose in this world, because you'll lose it all anyway. You may as well look around to see if theres something you can keep.

To sum up my rambles, which have a tendency to bury their own treasure (or at least, points) very deeply in manure,
1) You got my name wrong =P
2) You can make up any subjective meaning you want, if it makes you feel better. It's still an illusion.
3) Agnostics don't build up the illusion of believing they can disprove the existence of something, and are hence closer to the truth than atheists. They may also be closer to the truth than theists, but this is yet to be proved.
4) This life is meaningless. There might be more, and you CANNOT prove beyond doubt there isn't. You may as well look, and give all you have in looking if necessary, because eventually you will lose it all anyway.
5) If there is something more, it's worth finding, and if you sit in your comfortable atheism all your life, you will miss it, and lose the only thing you could have kept.

Summary of my summary:
You can't know there is nothing "out there", you CAN know there is nothing here. It is not folly to give what you cannot keep to obtain what you cannot lose.

The_Dude · 08-22-2003, 12:09 PM

atheists may exist, but they are NOT considered citizens or patriots. sry guys!

Quote:

I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

George H Bush

prosequence · 08-22-2003, 01:30 PM

I hate it when I don't exist.

User Name · 08-22-2003, 06:02 PM

I can change my name to Atheism, and then there will be no argument.

prosequence · 08-22-2003, 06:37 PM

So what qualities do we look for before we decide that they exist?

bermuDa · 08-22-2003, 07:31 PM

Mael · 08-22-2003, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by TIO
Johhny, you're taking the cop-out there. I agree, I can't prove that there is a God, and nobody can prove that there is, either. But I do believe that there isn't one. Now get off that fence.

he's not taking a cop out. i'm agnostic. i highly doubt that there is a god or a higher being, but i accept the fact that there is no way to prove it one way or the other and that there is a possibility of god. i think the idea of a god, especially the god of an organized religion is illogical and rather immature (kinda like the boogie man and santa claus). but i think taking a stance one way or the other saying something is the way it is when there is really no way to know is a cop out.

Mael · 08-22-2003, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ierre Il
2) You can make up any subjective meaning you want, if it makes you feel better. It's still an illusion.

so if we can give anything a subjective meaning, which is worthless, what defines an objective meaning? objective to whom? (which i realize is a bit of a contradiction since objectivity relies on the absence of opinion).

i dont' think that morals and meanings can be objective. they aren't a math test where 2+2=4 every time. morals and meanings dictated by religion are just as subjective as those an individual gives to them because it is just the opinion of that religion that dictates them. you can say "well, there are objective morals and meanings dictated by god," but how does anyone know what those are? i don't remember him showing up on Oprah to tell us.

if there is any objective morals/meanings to the world, i think we can only find them in nature, and if we used those morals to guide society, our civilization would be much different.

Dragonlich · 08-22-2003, 09:29 PM

Regarding (a)theism being a cop out:

It's logically impossible to prove that there is *no* god. It is also logically impossible to prove that there is no 5-star hotel run by aliens on the far side of Pluto. Shall we all be "agnostic" to that option too?

Remember: extraordinary claims, like "there is a god", require extraordinary evidence. Well, since you (theists/agnostics) belief there is/might be a god: show me the evidence...

Macheath · 08-22-2003, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Dragonlich
Remember: extraordinary claims, like "there is a god", require extraordinary evidence. Well, since you (theists/agnostics) belief there is/might be a god: show me the evidence...

I am familiar with two varying definitions of 'agnostic'; (b) one of which would have to step up and respond to your call for evidence, (a) the other actually addresses the failure of positive proof or evidence.

[QUOTE]agnostic:
a. One who believes that it is impossible to know whether there is a God.
b. One who is skeptical about the existence of God but does not profess true atheism.

My own ideas vary. At times when I call myself an agnostic, I definitely follow definition a. I would be more likely to profess full atheism rather than follow definition b, especially since reading Douglas Adams' humorous description of vague, wishy-washy anglicans turning into vague, wishy-washy agnostics.

TIO · 08-22-2003, 11:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Ierre Il
To sum up my rambles, which have a tendency to bury their own treasure (or at least, points) very deeply in manure,
1) You got my name wrong =P
2) You can make up any subjective meaning you want, if it makes you feel better. It's still an illusion.
3) Agnostics don't build up the illusion of believing they can disprove the existence of something, and are hence closer to the truth than atheists. They may also be closer to the truth than theists, but this is yet to be proved.
4) This life is meaningless. There might be more, and you CANNOT prove beyond doubt there isn't. You may as well look, and give all you have in looking if necessary, because eventually you will lose it all anyway.
5) If there is something more, it's worth finding, and if you sit in your comfortable atheism all your life, you will miss it, and lose the only thing you could have kept.

1) Sorry

2) Like I said, the meaning I make up is only meaningful to me. But in the absence of any absolute meaning, I have to take what I can get.

3) I don't think that I can disprove the existance of God. I acknowledge that my position can be neither proved or disproved, ever. But at least I have chosen a side. In the absence of proof, I have gone with balance of probability. You can't prove that there is or is not a God, but which do you consider more likely? Moreover, how can you comfortably live your life on the fence, not believing in anything at all? What framework do you use to determine your morals?

4) and 5) I do look. I have attended bible studies, and read texts on most of the major religions. Whenever I encounter adherents to a new religion, if they are willing, I sit down with them and learn about their beliefs. As yet, I simply have not found any that have convinced me.

Regziever · 08-23-2003, 01:01 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Rotten
Atheism is not lack of belief. It is presence of a counter-belief. I'm personally agnostic, in the classic sense that I don't think it can be proven either way. But I believe (!) that atheism is no less a leap of faith than a system of belief. And it tends to be a sign of a lack of imagination .

Atheism is Lack of belif, I don't belive therefore I am an atheist. There are those who have a positive belif that god doesn't exist and they are a group in themselves. Atheism (just the word) means 'without belief' not 'belife in nonextistence'.
As an atheist i don't have a positive belif in god's nonexistence, I simply don't belive at all. Tha'ts what makes me an Atheist.
For a more indepth explenation of what this means i refer you to George H. Smith's book ' Atheism, The case against god'.

Hmm.. Lack of imagination.. I don't know if that is labled flaming but it's verry close in my eyes.

TIO · 08-23-2003, 12:24 PM

Regzeiver, I beg to differ. Theism is the belief in God (or whatever), so atheism is an anti-belief. It is the belief in a non-religious system; a positive belief that there is no God (or whatever).
Gnosticism is the posession of some spiritual knowledge; the idea that you know (or, at least, believe) the truth about the spiritual state of the universe. Thus, agnosticism is the lack of any spiritual idea at all.

If you positively believe that there is no God, you are an atheist.
If you haven't made up your mind either way (or don't plan to at all), you are an agnostic.

And Johnny Rotten, my imagination is just fine. I can imagine a God. But I can also imagine purple giraffes hunting little green men on the sweeping plains of the Antarctican steppes. It doesn't mean I believe either exists. If I have a lack of imagination, then you have a distinct lack of conviction.

Johnny Rotten · 08-23-2003, 09:04 PM

But I have made up my mind

. My conviction is that it can't be proven or disproven. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The term "agnostic" came from Thomas Huxley, a 19th Century British scientist.

From a Google search:

"He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnosis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called them, who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870."

The term has been used to describe "One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something," which is why I emphasized that I'm an agnostic in the classic sense.

TIO · 08-23-2003, 09:38 PM

JR, that's the only sense of agnosticism I know.

But it still seems a bit weak to me that you have made up your mind not to believe. Sure, we can't prove it either way, and I accept that. But don't you feel the balance of probability pushing you one way or the other?
And what if the Christians are right? Are you going to stand in front of St. Peter and say, 'Nobody could prove you existed, so I didn't believe'?
Me? At least I'll be able to say that I made a choice based on the evidence.

TIO · 08-23-2003, 09:43 PM

I still haven't heard prosequence tell me why he doesn't think I exist.

DownwardSpiral · 08-25-2003, 03:50 PM

Of course Athiest's exist. They are all around, just as are Christian's, Catholic's, whatever people may be.

08-21-2003, 07:57 AM	#1 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Atheists Don't Exist hehehehe ...so thanks for joining me a new kind of twist/tilt.... I want to know if anyone can prove to me atheism exists? And what purpose does it serve? __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-21-2003, 08:34 AM	#2 (permalink)
XenuHubbard Cute and Cuddly Location: Teegeeack.	So, we meet again... Atheism exists. It has to, since Sixate exists, and Sixate is an atheist. Atheism serves no purpose. It just exists. Perhaps you meant to ask for proof that God doesn't exist...? Be careful what you write in an eventual reply. I would refrain from trying to disprove the existance of a Moderator. __________________ The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me. "What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000 Last edited by XenuHubbard; 08-21-2003 at 08:38 AM..

08-21-2003, 09:47 AM	#3 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	I am an atheist. My life is lived in the absence of the belief in any diety or preternatural force. I identify my religious conviction as atheism. Therefore, atheism exists. Purpose? Why do I need one? I am an atheist because I sincerely believe that there is no God. Likewise, my belief that the sky is blue serves no purpose; as Xenu said, Atheism simply exists. Must every idea have a purpose? But if you really want one, I'll give you this: The purpose for my beliefs is my need to understand the universe around me. It makes me more comfortable with my place in the world to know precicely where I stand in the Great Scheme of Things. I can look at a clothespeg, and wonder at all of the tiny coincidences that put this clothespeg in front of me at this time. I can understand that my actions are ultimately devoid of meaning to the uncaring universe, but that I still have a moral responsibility to my peers, and my belief that I am the sole judge of my worth gives me a frame of reference in which to construct and justify that moral code. So now, prosequence, I put it to you to justify your question; to explain your purpose in making me write this response. On what grounds do you make your assertion that Atheism does not exist? __________________ Strewth

08-21-2003, 12:19 PM	#7 (permalink)
docbungle It's all downhill from here Location: Denver	How can an atheist not exist? Don't carrots exist? Do christians exist? Do democrats exist? Republicans? Watermelons? What are you talking about? __________________ Bad Luck City

08-21-2003, 12:34 PM	#8 (permalink)
Mr. Spacemonkey Wake up Location: Nowhere special	I don't even know how to respond to this. I mean . . . are you serious? Of course they exist, i have met atheists so i know they exist. edit: i sincerely hope that this was a joke or something. . . RIGHT? __________________ "I hope that when the world comes to an end, I can breathe a sigh of relief, because there will be so much to look forward to." -- Donnie Darko

08-21-2003, 10:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	prosequence, can you prove you exist? And what purpose would you serve, pray tell?

08-21-2003, 11:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
Ierre Il Banned Location: Where I live? What you say!	Quit sniping at prosequence, he's without consequence =P Now... to address TIO, of the TLA (forgive me my name japes, tis late at night and my mind rapidly degenerates into such folly...), One must wonder at the utility of a belief which is held because it is comfortable... Such a charge has been frequently leveled at religion, without a great deal of backing I might add, and here it is freely admitted by an atheist... but to the next point, or, in the order of your post, the previous point. In light of what you say concerning your wish to feel comfortable, can you accurately state that you understand your surroundings? An understanding for the sake of comfort is rarely understanding at all, and if you mean to say where you fit in the great scheme of things, what scheme is there, or any way of fitting at all? Surely there is no meaning, events are simply the results of, when you get right down to it, collisions of matter following certain laws. Yes, its an oversimplification, I know full well, I have considerable knowledge of various branches of physics if it matters, but it doesnt. The general gist of what I am saying stands, that there can be no "great scheme of things" if we take an entirely materialist reading of the universe. Nor, one might note, is there any value in understanding, or truth, if one can say there is such a thing, as all your understandings and beliefs are simply a certain configuration, effectively random, of neurons in a certain greyish mush. I think you put your finger on it perfectly when you use such words as coincidence and unmeaning. However, one wonders where, in such concepts, you find the idea of moral responsibility. This bouncing matter knows no morals, it is simply stuff (I cannot pass up the opportunity to use properly the word I abuse the most...). You can have no morals in the sense that our minds present them to us, as YOU are just stuff, and stuff, I might add, and indeed shall add, that is far less lasting than a lot of other stuff. You, in a shape that we would call you, cannot exist much longer than another hundred years or so, if you are exceptionally longlived. To address your final demand, the weight of evidence in such propositions usually lies on the positive. In other words, unless you justify your position beyond rebuttle, it is not accepted. As an aside, XenuHubbard, you say that Atheism exists, because another entity possessing this attribute, namely, an atheist, exists. Now, does this necessarily and sufficiently imply that Atheism can exist independantly as a concept? I suppose that depends on whether we prescribe to Plato's theory of forms or not, but I imagine the question is rather irrelevant anyway, as thats not what either the original question, or your answer, meant... Please forgive my flippancy and address the points I make, I have this irritating habit of letting my mind and fingers run when I'm tired. I imagine it irritates others even more than it irritates itself, and that is my only consolation...

08-21-2003, 12:16 PM	#6 (permalink)
sixate Registered User Location: Somewhere in Ohio	I'm not even gonna get involved in this one.

08-21-2003, 12:39 PM	#10 (permalink)
CSflim Sky Piercer Location: Ireland	no comment. __________________

08-21-2003, 07:28 PM	#11 (permalink)
cowlick Insane Location: Seattle	Yes, Virginia, atheists don't exist. And every good boy and girl has a mommy at home waiting for them with cookies and milk. And at night you can crawl into your warm comfy bed and be safe in the knowledge that nobody anywhere is tougher your daddy. __________________ "It's a long story," says I, and let him up.

08-21-2003, 07:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I am a solipsist so actually none of you exist... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

08-21-2003, 07:41 PM	#13 (permalink)
virus Tilted Location: NYC	are you saying you don't think a sane person can truly believe they KNOW that nothing exists beyond them? everyone at least has a touch of agnosticism in them? i dunno, if people can believe if you blow yourself up you get a bunch of virgin pussy, i guess you can believe your body absorbs enough information from the universe to believe there is nothing beyond it.

08-21-2003, 09:03 PM	#14 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	for every belief there is a belief that disagrees with it. Theism exists, therefore Atheism exists. As long as people identify with those beliefs, the beliefs themselves will exist. __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

08-21-2003, 09:14 PM	#15 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	Lerre, you're missing my point. I don't believe in Atheism because it makes me comfortable. Believing that I have some idea about how the universe works makes me comfortable; I would get the same comfort in Christianity or Islam or Buddhism. I believe in Atheism because I think it is the truth. I bother to believe in anything because that makes me comfortable. As for the Great Scheme of Things; I believe that there is no Great Scheme of Things. Don't you think that belief pretty clearly defines what role I may or may not have in the GSoT? And as to the moral code and unmeaning (nice word!): I believe that there is no absolute meaning, no absolute right or wrong. But from there, I have come to the conclusion that if my life means nothing to The Universe, then I'd best start making sure that my life is meaningful to myself and everyone around me. So I build myself an artifical moral code, and a sense of right and wrong, which helps me to live my life in a way which may end up having some subjective meaning. __________________ Strewth

08-22-2003, 04:39 AM	#17 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	Johhny, you're taking the cop-out there. I agree, I can't prove that there is a God, and nobody can prove that there is, either. But I do believe that there isn't one. Now get off that fence. __________________ Strewth

08-22-2003, 09:34 AM	#21 (permalink)
Macheath Junkie Location: Sydney, Australia	I don't exist.

08-22-2003, 08:52 AM	#20 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	Ahh crap.... my over the shoulder buddy just enlightened me to the fact that I would also have a hard time proving I exist in real life not just on a Forum. Let's say I walk around saying I'm ....oh lets use... Dragonlich .... I tell people that I'm him/her, after a while people know me as him/her... does that make me dragonlich? If I'm an imposter, I can say I'm anyone... hard to tell otherwise. The "ahh crap" is that it throws a wrench into one of my favourite/fun arguements. I hate it when that happens! __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-22-2003, 01:30 PM	#26 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	I hate it when I don't exist. __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-22-2003, 06:02 PM	#27 (permalink)
User Name Banned Location: Urf	I can change my name to Atheism, and then there will be no argument.

08-22-2003, 06:37 PM	#28 (permalink)
prosequence Psycho Location: YOUR MOM!!	So what qualities do we look for before we decide that they exist? __________________ And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

08-22-2003, 07:31 PM	#29 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	?? __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

08-22-2003, 09:29 PM	#32 (permalink)
Dragonlich 42, baby! Location: The Netherlands	Regarding (a)theism being a cop out: It's logically impossible to prove that there is no god. It is also logically impossible to prove that there is no 5-star hotel run by aliens on the far side of Pluto. Shall we all be "agnostic" to that option too? Remember: extraordinary claims, like "there is a god", require extraordinary evidence. Well, since you (theists/agnostics) belief there is/might be a god: show me the evidence...

08-23-2003, 12:24 PM	#36 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	Regzeiver, I beg to differ. Theism is the belief in God (or whatever), so atheism is an anti-belief. It is the belief in a non-religious system; a positive belief that there is no God (or whatever). Gnosticism is the posession of some spiritual knowledge; the idea that you know (or, at least, believe) the truth about the spiritual state of the universe. Thus, agnosticism is the lack of any spiritual idea at all. If you positively believe that there is no God, you are an atheist. If you haven't made up your mind either way (or don't plan to at all), you are an agnostic. And Johnny Rotten, my imagination is just fine. I can imagine a God. But I can also imagine purple giraffes hunting little green men on the sweeping plains of the Antarctican steppes. It doesn't mean I believe either exists. If I have a lack of imagination, then you have a distinct lack of conviction. __________________ Strewth

08-23-2003, 09:04 PM	#37 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	But I have made up my mind . My conviction is that it can't be proven or disproven. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. The term "agnostic" came from Thomas Huxley, a 19th Century British scientist. From a Google search: "He made up the word from the prefix a-, meaning “without, not,” as in amoral, and the noun Gnostic. Gnostic is related to the Greek word gnosis, “knowledge,” which was used by early Christian writers to mean “higher, esoteric knowledge of spiritual things” hence, Gnostic referred to those with such knowledge. In coining the term agnostic, Huxley was considering as “Gnostics” a group of his fellow intellectuals“ists,” as he called them, who had eagerly embraced various doctrines or theories that explained the world to their satisfaction. Because he was a “man without a rag of a label to cover himself with,” Huxley coined the term agnostic for himself, its first published use being in 1870." The term has been used to describe "One who is doubtful or noncommittal about something," which is why I emphasized that I'm an agnostic in the classic sense.

08-23-2003, 09:38 PM	#38 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	JR, that's the only sense of agnosticism I know. But it still seems a bit weak to me that you have made up your mind not to believe. Sure, we can't prove it either way, and I accept that. But don't you feel the balance of probability pushing you one way or the other? And what if the Christians are right? Are you going to stand in front of St. Peter and say, 'Nobody could prove you existed, so I didn't believe'? Me? At least I'll be able to say that I made a choice based on the evidence. __________________ Strewth

08-23-2003, 09:43 PM	#39 (permalink)
TIO Addict Location: The Land Down Under	I still haven't heard prosequence tell me why he doesn't think I exist. __________________ Strewth

08-25-2003, 03:50 PM	#40 (permalink)
DownwardSpiral The Funeral of Hearts Location: Trapped inside my mind. . .	Of course Athiest's exist. They are all around, just as are Christian's, Catholic's, whatever people may be. __________________ "So Keep on Pretending. Our Heavens Worth the Waiting. Keep on Pretending. It's Alright." -- H.I.M., "Pretending"