The nature of God - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

MSD · 08-20-2003, 09:07 PM

Large organisms evolve from smaller ones. Single cells combine to from larger organisms. Evolution moves toward perfection. So, shouldn't it make sense that God is a point in our future when technology connects enough of us that we become omniscient, rather than the beginning of all things?

I don't remember the exact wording, but I'm curious to see if anyone has heard this before and knows where it came from. Share your thoughts. I wouldn't say I agree with it, but I think it is an interesting thought.

Mael · 08-20-2003, 09:38 PM

i haven't heard of this before, but i don't think our being connected together through technology will make us omniscient. i think physiologically, we aren't capable of processing and using all of that information we would need to be omnicient. i also don't think evolution moves towards perfection. if anything, by our developing consciousness, we've become more choatic. even in our order of society and habit of organizing things, compared to "lower" life forms, we've become worse than animals. we have the ability to be cruel and evil, which seems to be a trait missing from the rest of the animal kingdom. so i think we're regressing from perfect as we evolve. and we'll never become gods. although i think some people already think they are.

bad30th · 08-21-2003, 12:58 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
Large organisms evolve from smaller ones. Single cells combine to from larger organisms. Evolution moves toward perfection. So, shouldn't it make sense that God is a point in our future when technology connects enough of us that we become omniscient, rather than the beginning of all things?

That is one of the most interesting ideas linking evolution and religion that i have ever heard

On that same train of thought, one might say that the concept God is not a supreme being to worship and serve, but a glimpse of human perfection.

.....damn its late at night.....

CSflim · 08-21-2003, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MrSelfDestruct
Large organisms evolve from smaller ones. Single cells combine to from larger organisms. Evolution moves toward perfection. So, shouldn't it make sense that God is a point in our future when technology connects enough of us that we become omniscient, rather than the beginning of all things?

I don't remember the exact wording, but I'm curious to see if anyone has heard this before and knows where it came from. Share your thoughts. I wouldn't say I agree with it, but I think it is an interesting thought.

reminds me of a book by Arthur C. Clarke. Can't recall the name at the moment.

manifest_deity · 08-28-2003, 05:40 PM

I'm kinda with Mael on some of this. I don't think we are capable of being omniscient, no matter how many of us are "connected" through technology or what have you. I think there are many truths that we are not only unaware of, but incapable of comprehending. Omniscience is all knowing, but even if everyone could be connected now through some miracle technology, no one would know how the earth was actually formed, how life truely began, or how the world was going to end. To be truely omniscient one must stand outside of time. All points in time would then be at one single point percieved and hence, all would be known. This is the only way omniscience is possible and the only thing capable of standing outside of time, hence being omniscient, is God. Man will never acheive this, and if we're striving for it, it's just another Tower of Babel.

Johnny Rotten · 08-28-2003, 08:12 PM

In my humble opinion, evolution doesn't lead towards perfection as much as it pares things down to that which can survive in a specific habitat. Since our habitat doesn't require omniscience, we won't get there--through evolution, that is. The long-term progress of the human race seems to be harnessing the physical laws of the Universe through science and technology, as well as coming to terms with spirituality. I firmly believe there is more to reality than meets the eye; I've read too many ghost stories to believe otherwise, and perused through a fair share of UFOlogy and scientific theory.

I think, given your line of thought, that this article will be right up your alley:
http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix...inge-sing.html

It's an in-depth discussion of exactly what you're talking about.

There's an entire culture, even, devoted to investigating this phenomenon:
http://www.singularitywatch.com/

Doing a Google search on "technological singularity" provides a wealth of discussion.

kwIII · 08-28-2003, 08:30 PM

My question: is the human brain capable of comprehending and most of all retaining the vast amount of knowledge to be omniscient? Mael also said in a sense that we have de-evolved in that we are able to be cruel and evil, and in a since this is true. But isn't this ability to be cruel and evil also along the lines of our inate ability to rationalize and think. We evolved to be able to do this, this is what sets us apart from other animals, even though this ability can be used the wrong way I think this is our greatest gift.

bermuDa · 08-28-2003, 08:30 PM

i shudder to think that the borg is the ultimate step in human evolution o_O

MacGnG · 09-01-2003, 07:34 PM

maybe he wants a buddy.....eventually evolution will lead to God's Dog? hmmm...

i dont think it would be possible, but if He wanted it to happen eventually it would.

CSflim · 09-03-2003, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Johnny Rotten
In my humble opinion, evolution doesn't lead towards perfection as much as it pares things down to that which can survive in a specific habitat. Since our habitat doesn't require omniscience, we won't get there--through evolution, that is.

Nicely said. And forget about your humble opinion, when you're stating fact.
Nobody is going to evolve into god!

Lebell · 09-03-2003, 02:16 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by CSflim
reminds me of a book by Arthur C. Clarke. Can't recall the name at the moment.

"Childhood's End", perhaps?

CSflim · 09-03-2003, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by Lebell
"Childhood's End", perhaps?

Yup that's it....the Kubrick film that never was! Oh well, 2001 *more* than made up for that!

lurkette · 09-03-2003, 02:50 PM

Physicists help me out here.

Maybe it's like the expanding/contracting universe theory (can't remember exactly how it goes, but it was something like this): the big bang was preceded by something I think was called the "big bust" - contraction of the universe into a single point, which then exploded and formed the universe - the big bang. This cycle repeats itself over and over again, expanding till there's no more energy to expand it further, then contracting, exploding, expanding, etc.

Maybe "god" is a being that evolves in a similar cycle - an omniscient and omnipresent force constructed of the psychic energy of all living beings, which dissolves/explodes into the created universe, then evolves again, etc. I don't know what the motive would be for the dissolution - perfection is boring? but it'd be cool if the metaphysical mirrored the physical.

CSflim · 09-03-2003, 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by lurkette
Physicists help me out here.

Maybe it's like the expanding/contracting universe theory (can't remember exactly how it goes, but it was something like this): the big bang was preceded by something I think was called the "big bust" - contraction of the universe into a single point, which then exploded and formed the universe - the big bang. This cycle repeats itself over and over again, expanding till there's no more energy to expand it further, then contracting, exploding, expanding, etc.

Maybe "god" is a being that evolves in a similar cycle - an omniscient and omnipresent force constructed of the psychic energy of all living beings, which dissolves/explodes into the created universe, then evolves again, etc. I don't know what the motive would be for the dissolution - perfection is boring? but it'd be cool if the metaphysical mirrored the physical.

The Big Crunch is one theory. However it has been mostly discarded at this stage. There doesn't appear to be enough matter in existence to cause the universe to slow down and recollapse in on itself.

It seems more likely that the universe will continue to expand indefinately to a total "Heat Death".

lurkette · 09-03-2003, 05:12 PM

Poo. There goes my theory.

Next!

MSD · 09-03-2003, 07:06 PM

It's amazing how much good thought can be inspired by a quote from Dilbert, isn't it?

robbdn · 02-02-2006, 07:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

Large organisms evolve from smaller ones. Single cells combine to from larger organisms. Evolution moves toward perfection. So, shouldn't it make sense that God is a point in our future when technology connects enough of us that we become omniscient, rather than the beginning of all things?

I don't remember the exact wording, but I'm curious to see if anyone has heard this before and knows where it came from. Share your thoughts. I wouldn't say I agree with it, but I think it is an interesting thought.

Hope nobody minds, but a friend of mine wrote something recently that has got me thinking about these things, and I searched through the forum to find this thread and I'll now resurrect it:

It's Not Just A Game: Spirituality and Technology by JamesTM at http://www.eternalgamer.com/play/art...60123211212739

Quote:

The consciousness of the world's human population is exploding. The exponentially increasing rate at which we receive data began with such simple inventions as the printing press, burgeoned with the creation of radio and television, and continues to expand ever more rapidly in the evolution of the Internet.

Whether you read esoteric prophecies or speculate on future cybernetic technologies, humanity appears to be racing toward a unified, shared consciousness. If the revolution is the result of an augmented spirituality or technology is not so important, though I lend my faith to a combination of the two. I simply feel an inevitability of dramatic change in the way humans think and cooperate, and I feel it is imminent in our lifetimes.

What's all this have to do with online gaming?

I view every Internet technology as rehearsal for endowment of this collective conscious. The truly awesome capability of instantaneous, world-wide connectivity among intellects seems to me a bit overwhelming to absorb in a singular stride. Multiplayer online games serve as an ideal exercise toward handling this power, in that they allow us to communicate instantly and react collectively to stimuli vaguely resembling the real world, all the while transcending the physical limitations of space.

It's not just a game, it's practice for a revolution in the way humanity thinks. When I bear criticism from people in real life about gaming and gamers, I shake my head in disbelief and try to explain my theories. Certainly there exists a point where too much "practice" can be dangerous. The sustenance of one's own life supercedes digital connectivity with others', and I have no doubt the same will be true when our consciousness does unify. However, the person who spends several hours a day actively communicating in and manipulating these illusory environments more closely embraces the reality we appear destined to inherit than the average real-life sociophile.

Hopefully, that reality won't be limited to blasting people in the face with a fully automatic weapon, directing vast armies toward unparalleled destruction, or convening to depose the most powerful enemy of the land. Unfortunately, building schools and feeding the homeless in simulated environments isn't fun... Yet! In the meantime, both competitive and cooperative efforts in online gaming prepare us for something substantially greater than the sum of humanity's individual parts.

While he's not specifically invoking biological organisms, or anything to that fact, he does seem to be reinterpreting the idea of the godhead as a sort of collective consciousness spurned by technology and internet gaming... or rather, looking forward to the future, will the distant relative of the MMO be responsible for uniting humanity in such a way that, while not evolving biologically, we could evolve socially, and at least realize ideas of God and omniscience in a more perfect society? Could we focus all of our efforts, our downtime, by participating with the global community in an egalitarian virtual realm where problems are solved and true progress, perhaps even social perfection, achieved? Would that constitute God in any way?

Looking forward to thoughts....

WindGillsPlease · 02-02-2006, 12:00 PM

I love this!
technology isn't anything but a vehicle, though. I think technology might TEACH us something like the omniscient, but I disagree that it makes us BECOME omniscient.

Quote:

Originally Posted by bermuDa

i shudder to think that the borg is the ultimate step in human evolution o_O

I have to agree.

MSD · 02-04-2006, 06:45 PM

Found it.

Zeraph · 02-04-2006, 07:07 PM

I like that. Made me LOL

SecretMethod70 · 02-04-2006, 08:51 PM

This is very similar to the theology of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and the Omega Point

tecoyah · 02-05-2006, 05:13 AM

I think God....is what we wish we were, and what we strive to become. God is the manifestation of perfection as our minds see it, which differs from person to person, and culture to culture. God is that which we will eventually become.....if indeed, we prove worthy. God is a dream....but one worth remembering.

Coppertop · 02-05-2006, 09:33 AM

Read God's Debris, also by Scott Adams. That comic is basically the root of the book.

edit - Read this thread for a free pdf download and more discussion of the book.

Nimetic · 02-08-2006, 09:51 PM

Larger organisms appear to have evolved from smaller ones - however so have many smaller ones. Additionally, I expect that there are many cases where smaller creatures evolve from larger ones.

On the second point... Evolution simply favours the organisms that survive and breed. The flu virus is successful. The fly is successful - and so on.

On the technology issue. If we put a videophone between every pair of people on the planet, this would not equate to omniscience. Even if we put direct brain to brain connections in place somehow - intelligence does not seem to be an additive effect. One thousant chimpanzees do not add to a human for example, when considering certain conceptual abilities.

...and experiences with large meetings/committees seems to indicate the exact opposite. Large groups can be stupid.

But hey, I leave you with this though. Maybe humanity is already omniscient when considered as a group. It's just a verrrrryyy slow thinker.....

08-20-2003, 09:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	The nature of God Large organisms evolve from smaller ones. Single cells combine to from larger organisms. Evolution moves toward perfection. So, shouldn't it make sense that God is a point in our future when technology connects enough of us that we become omniscient, rather than the beginning of all things? I don't remember the exact wording, but I'm curious to see if anyone has heard this before and knows where it came from. Share your thoughts. I wouldn't say I agree with it, but I think it is an interesting thought.

08-28-2003, 05:40 PM	#5 (permalink)
manifest_deity Upright	I'm kinda with Mael on some of this. I don't think we are capable of being omniscient, no matter how many of us are "connected" through technology or what have you. I think there are many truths that we are not only unaware of, but incapable of comprehending. Omniscience is all knowing, but even if everyone could be connected now through some miracle technology, no one would know how the earth was actually formed, how life truely began, or how the world was going to end. To be truely omniscient one must stand outside of time. All points in time would then be at one single point percieved and hence, all would be known. This is the only way omniscience is possible and the only thing capable of standing outside of time, hence being omniscient, is God. Man will never acheive this, and if we're striving for it, it's just another Tower of Babel. __________________ Lord, Liar, or Lunatic?

08-28-2003, 08:12 PM	#6 (permalink)
Johnny Rotten lost and found Location: Berkeley	In my humble opinion, evolution doesn't lead towards perfection as much as it pares things down to that which can survive in a specific habitat. Since our habitat doesn't require omniscience, we won't get there--through evolution, that is. The long-term progress of the human race seems to be harnessing the physical laws of the Universe through science and technology, as well as coming to terms with spirituality. I firmly believe there is more to reality than meets the eye; I've read too many ghost stories to believe otherwise, and perused through a fair share of UFOlogy and scientific theory. I think, given your line of thought, that this article will be right up your alley: http://www.ugcs.caltech.edu/~phoenix...inge-sing.html It's an in-depth discussion of exactly what you're talking about. There's an entire culture, even, devoted to investigating this phenomenon: http://www.singularitywatch.com/ Doing a Google search on "technological singularity" provides a wealth of discussion. __________________ "The idea that money doesn't buy you happiness is a lie put about by the rich, to stop the poor from killing them." -- Michael Caine

08-28-2003, 08:30 PM	#8 (permalink)
bermuDa don't ignore this--> Location: CA	i shudder to think that the borg is the ultimate step in human evolution o_O __________________ I am the very model of a moderator gentleman.

09-03-2003, 02:50 PM	#13 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Physicists help me out here. Maybe it's like the expanding/contracting universe theory (can't remember exactly how it goes, but it was something like this): the big bang was preceded by something I think was called the "big bust" - contraction of the universe into a single point, which then exploded and formed the universe - the big bang. This cycle repeats itself over and over again, expanding till there's no more energy to expand it further, then contracting, exploding, expanding, etc. Maybe "god" is a being that evolves in a similar cycle - an omniscient and omnipresent force constructed of the psychic energy of all living beings, which dissolves/explodes into the created universe, then evolves again, etc. I don't know what the motive would be for the dissolution - perfection is boring? but it'd be cool if the metaphysical mirrored the physical. __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

08-20-2003, 09:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mael Banned Location: The Hell I Created.	i haven't heard of this before, but i don't think our being connected together through technology will make us omniscient. i think physiologically, we aren't capable of processing and using all of that information we would need to be omnicient. i also don't think evolution moves towards perfection. if anything, by our developing consciousness, we've become more choatic. even in our order of society and habit of organizing things, compared to "lower" life forms, we've become worse than animals. we have the ability to be cruel and evil, which seems to be a trait missing from the rest of the animal kingdom. so i think we're regressing from perfect as we evolve. and we'll never become gods. although i think some people already think they are.

08-28-2003, 08:30 PM	#7 (permalink)
kwIII Upright Location: , NC	My question: is the human brain capable of comprehending and most of all retaining the vast amount of knowledge to be omniscient? Mael also said in a sense that we have de-evolved in that we are able to be cruel and evil, and in a since this is true. But isn't this ability to be cruel and evil also along the lines of our inate ability to rationalize and think. We evolved to be able to do this, this is what sets us apart from other animals, even though this ability can be used the wrong way I think this is our greatest gift.

09-01-2003, 07:34 PM	#9 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	maybe he wants a buddy.....eventually evolution will lead to God's Dog? hmmm... i dont think it would be possible, but if He wanted it to happen eventually it would.

09-03-2003, 05:12 PM	#15 (permalink)
lurkette My future is coming on Moderator Emeritus Location: east of the sun and west of the moon	Poo. There goes my theory. Next! __________________ "If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing." - Anatole France

09-03-2003, 07:06 PM	#16 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	It's amazing how much good thought can be inspired by a quote from Dilbert, isn't it?

02-04-2006, 06:45 PM	#19 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Found it.

02-04-2006, 07:07 PM	#20 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	I like that. Made me LOL

02-04-2006, 08:51 PM	#21 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	This is very similar to the theology of Pierre Teilhard de Chardin and the Omega Point __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

02-05-2006, 05:13 AM	#22 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	I think God....is what we wish we were, and what we strive to become. God is the manifestation of perfection as our minds see it, which differs from person to person, and culture to culture. God is that which we will eventually become.....if indeed, we prove worthy. God is a dream....but one worth remembering. __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

02-05-2006, 09:33 AM	#23 (permalink)
Coppertop Getting Medieval on your ass Location: 13th century Europe	Read God's Debris, also by Scott Adams. That comic is basically the root of the book. edit - Read this thread for a free pdf download and more discussion of the book. Last edited by Coppertop; 02-05-2006 at 09:36 AM..

02-08-2006, 09:51 PM	#24 (permalink)
Nimetic Junkie Location: Melbourne, Australia	To me - the initial points seem clearly incorrect Larger organisms appear to have evolved from smaller ones - however so have many smaller ones. Additionally, I expect that there are many cases where smaller creatures evolve from larger ones. On the second point... Evolution simply favours the organisms that survive and breed. The flu virus is successful. The fly is successful - and so on. On the technology issue. If we put a videophone between every pair of people on the planet, this would not equate to omniscience. Even if we put direct brain to brain connections in place somehow - intelligence does not seem to be an additive effect. One thousant chimpanzees do not add to a human for example, when considering certain conceptual abilities. ...and experiences with large meetings/committees seems to indicate the exact opposite. Large groups can be stupid. But hey, I leave you with this though. Maybe humanity is already omniscient when considered as a group. It's just a verrrrryyy slow thinker..... Last edited by Nimetic; 02-08-2006 at 09:56 PM..