virus

i still maintain that prayer/relflection/meditation is useful for atheists as well. i certainly don't think it's any kind of requirement for living. i like jimk's statement.

sixate: i've been there, that sucks. thanks for sharing that. i totally agree that people who think people MUST worship to be "saved" are missing the point.

MSD

It's just a way of saying, "Thaks for creating me."

ARTelevision

worship is something submissive people seem to enjoy.
I'm not interested in that for myself.

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rogue49

I don't worship
I have faith

There's difference.
One you are letting it lead you,
the other you believe in and are a part of.

One you need a commander,
the other is a soul that is a guide for your soul.

One you are told,
the other you just know.

To me God is not the lord of it all,
To me God is the essense of it all.

There is a difference.

ARTelevision

yes, but the original question was specifically about "worship"

I don't think the notion of faith is in question here.

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chavos

art: do you say thank you? do you say I'm sorry? Do you say i love you?

My experience with worship does not remind me of submission any more than these interactions do... There is a profound contrition involved, but when God's mercy is equally profound and tangible, the net result is not a feeling of having submitted myself...but resolving to dedicate myself. Loyalty can be enforced or it can be inspired....a person can be there out of fear or love....

ARTelevision

chavos, yes. the words used to describe what you are asking me would be words like courtesy, consideration, care, and even love (which, I believe is a word that has meaning even though its meanings are far-reaching and astoundingly variable.)

"worship" is a different matter entirely from those concepts.

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chavos

That can be your assertion, and i will respect it. But that is a statement in direct opposition to my experience of worship, so understand when i say i believe you are making a mistake of over-generalization.

ARTelevision

Well, to pursue this in the interest of having a language that actually means something, chavos - I would say I am not making a mistake of over-generalization. That is not a cogent response here. If you'd like to discuss the nature of the abstractions we call "words" in relation to the experience of living, then we are discussing linguistics - which has as its subject matter the generalization of experience known as language.

If I may answer for you, I believe you are saying that in your personal experience these terms have a meaning for you that they do not necessarily have for me. Or to put it another way, you are accusing me of generalizing from my experience to yours.

I respect your unique personal experience. The problem is we share a common language. If we can't agree on terminology we won't be able to get very far in discussing our differences.

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chavos

okay...the original statement was that worship was something that submissive people seem to enjoy.

My counter arguement is that you were lumping together many disparate experiences and calling them all "worship." While this has some truth to it, it also obscures the variety of human responses to and expressions of worship of the divine. What possible meaning does the word worship have outside of human experience after all? Why bother defineing the value of the concept, but for the actual experiecnes that people have with it?

What you seem to be trying for here is one definition of a complex concept. I wish you the best of luck, but that hardly furthers intelligent debate. Some people find submissive fufillment in some kinds of worship experiences. Does it logically follow that worship in and of it self is an act of submission? No!

Look...the fallacy is thus. For the set of behaviors known as worship, there are points that lie with in the set known as submission. Therefore, the set known as worhsip is = to the set known as submission.

I think you can see why i object.

ARTelevision

Yes, of course.
Very well put, by the way.
Thanks,

We are, in fact, at the point where we disagree - subjectively and personally on a subject which has both personal and interpersonal dimensions.

That's the way it is with religion. We have a very subjective experience within the objective context of "the real world".

It's a big part of the tension that exists in the world and between people - some of it is evidenced in discussions here and what is far worse, much of this tension is played out on the historical stage - the politicalization of religion, etc.

As far as I'm concerned we've outlined the territory mutually and with civility. That's all that can be expected. Even more, I believe we've evidenced an understanding and respect for each other's views...

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chavos

i can agree to that...thank you as well.

rogue49

No Art, I'm saying I do NOT worship.
Worship is a act of giving yourself to your God.

Faith which is what I have, is just knowing you are part of something greater.

I do NOT go through any religious ritual,
nor believe that any action that I have is directly acted upon or influenced by God.

I was answering the question.

ARTelevision

rogue, by saying "Faith which is what I have, is just knowing you are part of something greater" it does appear you are equating the concepts of faith and knowledge.

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rogue49

"Knowing" as defined in acknowledgement or accepting.

NOT " to know" as defined in experience & learning.

There is a difference, even the word is spelled the same.

And this IS possible in language.

Knowledge & faith are NOT the same thing.

ARTelevision

yes.
I think we are talking about "belief" here.
thanks.

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raeanna74

Wor·ship
Pronunciation: 'w&r-sh&p
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English worshipe worthiness, respect, reverence paid to a divine being, from Old English weorthscipe worthiness, respect, from weorth worthy, worth + -scipe -ship
Date: before 12th century
1 chiefly British : a person of importance -- used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)
2 : reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also : an act of expressing such reverence
3 : a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual
4 : extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem <worship of the dollar>

There are many reasons why people go through the motions of worship. That is simply because we are all different and motivated differently. I think the pure reason that God would choose for us to worship him is to maintain order in the world and in our lives.

We have learned that meditation of any sort including prayer, religious study, and eastern meditation practices improve our emotional health and in turn our physical health.

Also if we "worship=respect or admiration for or devotion to" a supreme being that made the laws that we are to live by we will be more willing to obey those laws.

Also if we recognise him as our God and creator then we should on our own desire to revere him and pay him respect.

As for the laws that the Christian God set out, there are frequently multiple reasons for them. There are so many ways to interpret things and so many different ways of looking at things that I don't think this is a question that can be answered with a blanket statement. You have to come up with your own reason for worshiping. These reasons listed above are the ones that I personally see as the reason for giving God my "worship."

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