TheKak

I have always wondered something about people who worship God/gods/whoever. If God is all powerful, which he would have to be to be God, then why would you have to worship him? It cant be to let him know that you are sincere in your belief, if he is all powerful he would already know that. Is he supposed to get pleasure out of it? (pleasure seems too "this worldly" to be something associated with God). Just want to know your thoughts.

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asaris

Since he's also good, he wants what's best for us. Since we were created by him, what's best for us is to worship him. So basically, he does it for our pleasure.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

sexymama

Good question! I think worship is about bringing like minded people together to have them support one another in their quest to be the best they can be. Worship also is time set aside for us to focus on what is important in life.

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It's not about being perfect; it's about developing some skill at managing imperfection.

TheKak

This doesnt say WHY you would *worship* God though. Simply because he created us isnt really an answer. And your last line makes it seem like worship is a selfish act since it brings about personal pleasure (also would pleasure other people in an indirect way I suppose if you were in a congregation).

I like your response though sexymama, thanks!

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chavos

Not sure i follow all of your assumptions. Namely that God must be all-powerful to be God. But moreover, this assumption doesn't add much to the question of why worship. So i'll skip it.

First, you need to ask what worship is. For some people, it's an exercise in self rightiousness, where they idolize themsleves and conflate their rightiousness with God's. They sing praises to God's name, but have themselves in mind. For them, the why is because they love hearing pretty words about who they are.

For others, it's about self-flagellation...listing their failures and disengaging from God because they're "too bad" or "too weak", etc... For them, the why is probably because they've come to crisis in their idenity and fear rejection.

And sometimes, people come to worship out of gratitude for all that God is doing in the world, and to celebrate the deep love that God has shown. For them, the why is simple: it makes sense to say thank you for this amazing gift. They come to be reconciled to this love, to remind themselves that they have choosen to live in it's blessing.

And these are just three that i thought of off the top of my head-all ones i've done at somepoint or another. Mind you, i don't really suggest the first two, but i thought it might be better to be realistic. It's like asking why someone has a conversation with a loved one: there are as many answers as there are conversations. Each one has a different motivation.... And sometimes it's a fight, sometimes it's just joking around...and sometimes it's as serious as can be...

BigGov

Because God has self-esteem issues?

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Lebell

Ever think how lonely it must be to be God?

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Keg-o-Grog

worshiping is to gain the favor of the gods, so they give us what we want. i dont believe in a god though, for several reasons.

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Sledge

My beef with God is that, yeah, he might be lonely, but making people for the purpose of having them worship him, and zapping those who don't want to? It just doesn't seem... nice.

God gave us free will. But those of us who don't obey him burn forever. Mmm, nice free will, Lord. Thanks.

docbungle

That's the point, I believe. He created us, laid down the rules and then gave us the freedom to do whatever we chose. We have the ability to follow Him or ignore Him; it's completely up to us.

That we have to be held accountable for our actions is no big surprise. Our whole society is built on the same concept: you break the law, you pay for it.

Being God, and being our creator, he gets to tell US what to do, not the other way around. If we don't like it, we can file a complaint, but that doesn't mean He's going to change anything.

Unfair? Maybe in OUR minds, but then again, tough shit.

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MacGnG

No matter how you worship, or to what extent, truly meaningful worship is always accepted by God.

what is the point of "worship" if you dont mean it? do what you want to show you believe in God; why lie to yourself and him?

Actions over Words; Quality over Quantity.

CSflim

But he's PERFECT. He doesn't GET lonely.

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TheKak

Some good responses Though I think some of you give God far too many human qualities for him to be perfect.

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Lebell

I personally don't think Hell is burning in fire, but rather, that you get your wish:

God leaves you alone.

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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." – C. S. Lewis

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XenuHubbard

I don't see why God has to be lonely. Isn't he admitting to the existance of other divine entities? - "You shall no other gods have before me". Just saying that "I am a jealous god" indicates that there are other entities worthy of being called gods, otherwise the sentence would have been "I am jealous".

To me, the sentences in the Bible used to point out that there is only one God, are the same sentences that claim there's a multitude.

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"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

prosequence

Ever consider worshipping keeps God from getting lonely?
Do you never call your mom? It's a two way street, they gave you life, a little thanks and praise now and again wouldn't hurt.

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MacGnG

we are created in his image

XenuHubbard

Comparing God to our Mums doesn't really help.
My mom gave me life. I don't worship her.

Even if my existance is owed to the act of an entity, the problem still remains; Which entity?

Don't forget that some people in this thread aren't Christians. I agree with you that respect and love is a two-way street, though.

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"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

asaris

On the Selfishness of Worship:

Just because you do something because it's pleasurable doesn't mean that it's a selfish act. First of all, I'm not convinced that even if the fact that it's pleasurable is the only reason, that that action is for that reason selfish. If I go down to the soup kitchen to serve the poor because it gives me pleasure, does that make it selfish? Perhaps not as praiseworthy as it might otherwise be, but selfish? Second of all, most of our actions are done for a variety of reasons, and worshipping God is no exception. Some of the reasons people worship God are habit, gratitude, pride, love, need, and I suspect one could add many more. Some are good reasons and some are bad.

Mothers
Well, sure you don't worship your mother. But in ordinary cases, you feel grateful to her. But what God has done for us is on a much larger scale than that. It's not just that he started us off -- it is in him that we live and breathe and have our being. God IS our Being.

This also answers the question of which entity -- if we owe our existence to an entity in such a robust sense, there can only be one such entity.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

prosequence

Hmm, how about this, if you don't believe in God then don't worry about it. See like me, I don't believe in Pickles, since no one can show me a pickle plant, so I don't stay up late and worry about it.

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XenuHubbard

I don't think that equating God to pickles is going to sway me in any direction.

I don't need faith to know pickles exist.
I've eaten them, I've used them in cooking, and the word faith does therefore not apply. It's common knowledge.
Empirical evidence supports their existance.

I guess this is what it boils down to for most atheists/agnostics - the lack of empirical evidence.

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"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

virus

it's reflection. i don't think i'm gonna drop dead and then be able to play poker with G-d and smoke a doobie with my relatives. but i do believe i'm part of something, and i pray, in a way, worship.

so i don't think you have to believe in an almighty zeuslike figure that eats planets and shits life to worship it. even if my death means i'm completely gone (and i don't think that's how it'll be, exactly), i don't think it's a waste of time to pray.

prosequence

I don't need faith to know pickles exist.
I've eaten them, I've used them in cooking, and the word faith does therefore not apply. It's common knowledge.
[/QUOTE]

"I have a realtionship with God, he watches over me, talks to me, gives me guidance, saves my soul etc......"
It's common knowledge.

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Easytiger

Just to move the discussion away from Christianity, most branches of Wicca (and I know that I can't speak for them all) don't generally engage in what people would traditionally call "worship". We work with the larger forces in the universe, and while we respect them, we know that they don't need our worship.

XenuHubbard

Hey, if you show me God, I'll show you a pickle.

Look, prosequence, this thread is about what God supposedly gets out of people worshipping Him.

We're both equally guilty of derailing it, but I think it's either time to stop, or to open a new thread.

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"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000

prosequence

I agree. So lets go back to the basics... from the thread title, the arguement, that there IS a God (or there would be no question) and you want to know what he gets out of worship....
I'll hazard a guess and say companionship and love.

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sixate

WOW! Really? I bet Santa still brings your presents, the Tooth Fairy leave a quarter under your pillow, and the Easter Bunny brings you a basket of chocolates too, huh?

What exactly does he say to you? What does he do for you? What other imaginary voices are going on inside your head? That seems to be common knowledge to me.

prosequence

sevenatenine... must be hard not being loved by those around you. God loves you.
We talk about you all the time, we wish you had a happier childhood, we really do, but he needed you to be stronger because of the great plans in store for you. We hope that you can forgive those who you feel do you wrong.... so cheer up and know that you are loved.

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sixate

All I have to say about that is :

You know nothing about me. You think I'm an angry piece of shit because I don't believe in your god, and that I won't be happy unless I'm more like you. No thanks. I like myself just the way I am.

chavos

Sixate: Being rude and beligerant is hardly the way to make your point...

sixate

Sorry, but I'm not being ignorant. This is something that drives me nuts about religion. He stated that god speaks to him. You don't find that odd? Why does he only speak to him? I asked serious questions that were ignored. I simply compared god, which nobody can prove exists, to other imaginary figures. He stated it was common knowledge that god does speak to him. So how is it not rude that he obviously thinks people who don't believe that are obviously dumb? Then he basically replies that I had a fucked up childhood, among other things, and he finds there to be no way in hell that I can possibly be happy unless I believe as he does. Now tell me that isn't rude. He knows nothing about me. My childhood was fine and I have plenty of people who care about me. I have never told anyone to believe as I do cause they'll be happier if they are like me. I'm all for someone believing whatever they want, and I don't think that people can't be happy if they think differently than me. That would be rude and uneducated.

As usual I'm being misunderstood, again.

prosequence

sixate... what makes you think I was talking to you ???
and God doesn't only speak to me.
But lets get back to the original question.
Sixate what do you think God gets from worship?

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And now here I stand because of you, Mister Anderson, because of you I'm no longer an agent of the system, because of you I've changed...

sixate

I don't believe that there is a god in any way shape or form. So I don't think god gets anything out of it. I don't get the point of prayer/worship. It makes no sense to me and I think people should direct their energy toward other things, but if you are happy through your prayer/worship then so be it and continue. I'll never understand it just as you'll never understand my opinion.

prosequence

I haven't always believed in God, thus I believe it does give me some insight into your opinion. I thank you for your acceptance though, it's much appreciated.

NOTE: it's a good thing we don't all agree anyway... pretty boring threads if that was the case.

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virus

sixate- you don't beleive in a god or you don't believe in any kind of spiritual concept whatsoever?

my point above was that we humans can get something out of worship whether or not it turns on the powers that be...

docbungle

Sixate

I'm just curious. I've been on these boards a bit now and you seem to be the most outspoken atheist here. Do you happen to have any good friends who believe in God?

Most of my close friends are "atheists for life" and yet we still get along fine, even though I believe in God. We don't push our views on each other, and if we talk about religion, we're just giving each other shit, because we're friends and we can do that. True friends, I believe, can talk about whatever without their stupid beliefs getting in the way.

I guess what I'm asking is: If someone believes in God, do you discredit them as a person because of that? I mean, obviously, if they don't shove their views down your throat. Is it possible for the two of you to get along without religion coming up?

Hope I didn't offend.

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sixate

I have many friends who are very religious. Actually, all of my friends IRL believe in god. I don't have a problem with someone believing in a higher power, but what I do have a problem with is most of my friends who do believe try to force their religion upon me. They try to convert me almost every single time I see them, which happens to be daily. I will admit that I do have some friends who have no clue that I'm atheist and it's because I don't go running around like a madman saying, "Look at me! I'm atheist and you better be too." That's basically what religious people do. They preach and try to force things upon people who aren't interested. My friends who I have debated this with have basically said that there is no way in hell that I will ever be converted. It's absolutely impossible. Yet the continue with their bullshit.

I dated a christian girl for a while and I told her from day one that I was atheist so if it was a problem for her it wouldn't go anywhere. She said that she didn't have a problem and I had no problem with her being religious...... Until she tried to convert me all the time and sick her family on me. Every single time a met a new family member of hers her mom would tell them I was atheist. People don't realize what a big deal that is. I was judged as a pile of shit with no morals the second I met these people. Most never even bothered to get to know me. The funny thing is most of them cheated on their wives/husbands or treated their families like shit and did way too many drugs and drank too fucking much, but I'm the one with no morals!? I do none of that shit, and I don't need to believe in a god to know the difference between right and wrong. I also remember the day that her mother asked me about religion. Luckily, she knew me enough to know what I'm all about, but she still tried to convert me all the damn time. When I told her I was atheist she cried her eyes out because until that point I was the greatest guy she ever knew, and my girlies mom's opinion of me being atheist was a big reason I finally broke up with her. It created many problems, and now I will never date another christian girl because I knw she won't be able to handle the fact that I don't believe. Her and her family always said that they felt sorry for me because my life was so empty. I heard it so many times that I couldn't take it any more and I told them all to fuck off!

It's always a fucking struggle and it does nothing but piss me off when people don't mind their fucking business and keep their noses up their own asses. I have never and will never tell anyone to believe as I do. So if I seem to get shitty about this kind of crap then I apologize, but I have many reasons for being this way and I don't have the time to type it all out.

You asked if I discredit people for believing in god.... The ones who shove their shit in my face I absolutely do discredit them and think they're morons. People who don't try to convert me I have plenty of respect for.

And no, you didn't offend. I almost never get offended.

sixate

I don't believe in either.

docbungle

Right on.

.

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jimk

yeah, is god the guy with a flowing white robe & beard with little sheep all around him? probably not.

i am able to get my head around worship/prayer by thinking of it like this:

talking to (insert your name for god here) is the best way to admit/believe that i do not rule the universe. something bigger than me does.

i used to only do "foxhole prayers": god, get me outta this one, PLEASE!! lately i'm trying more to pray more for the ability to understand why god's will sometimes includes so much fucked up stuff, and being grateful for things i have that are not at all guaranteed.

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