God's test of Abraham - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

nietzsche · 08-11-2003, 01:32 PM

What does everyone think of God's so called test of Abraham on Mount Moriah (Genesis 22)?

Does anyone agree that the intent to sacrifice one's own child is a valid test of faith or just a completely moronic act?

Furthermore, this question being directed to the Judeo-Christian followers, why respect a God that requests this of someone?

Before anyone points it out, yes I know God provided the ram, but Abraham didn't know he would do that. Once "Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son" what does it matter whether he completes the act or not?

To me this is a god not only unworthy of worship, but worthy of condemnation.

asaris · 08-11-2003, 02:43 PM

Two answers real quick, since I gotta get home for dinner.

1. How much time do you have?

2. Have you read Fear and Trembling (by Soren Kierkegaard)?

Fear and Trembling is essentially a philosophical examination of the problem of Abraham. It's sad that a lot of Christians don't really take it seriously, but this sort of case would seem to be a real sticking point. Briefly, I would say I have no idea. The command to sacrifice one's child for God is a fearful thing to command. But, because I'm a Christian, I trust that God knows what he's doing. I can't understand how it could be good, but I trust that it was.

Incidentally, I have a set of notes typed up on Fear and Trembling, that I can email you if you're really interested, but they're too long to post here.

nietzsche · 08-11-2003, 02:45 PM

1. All the time in the world

2. No, *writes it down* I'll put it on my list of books to read though, thanks

chavos · 08-11-2003, 09:56 PM

more than one commentator has pointed out that Abraham knows that he won't have to even when he's asked. he has been told that he will be blessed with ancestors more numerous than the stars through isaac, and that through him, all nations will be blessed. So...it doesn't make sense that Abraham would believe that isaac will really die.

More over, when he is told that sodom and gomorrah will be killed, he bargains heavily, badgering God to lower the threshold at which the cities will be saved. he makes no attempt to bargain for his own son's life...it may be becuase the threat isn't credible.

Stepping out of the narrative for closing comments: To me, this is a faith story, which is told to highlight the necessity of deep trust in God. Whether or not the patriarch of Isreal was commanded to slay his son or not seems rather secondary to me. This is a saga, not a biography.

HeadyIncognito · 08-11-2003, 10:01 PM

Religion is rather twisted.

nash · 08-12-2003, 08:15 AM

Here is one guy's attempt to answer a similar question:

"Why did God punish the Canaanites for child sacrifice, when He personally ORDERED Abraham to do it?!"

Don't know if it'll be any help to you, but I hope you find your answers.

MacGnG · 08-12-2003, 11:28 AM

God was testing Abraham. so the test was only one question, and it was a trick question. the point is that abraham passed.

If abraham did not trust God, how could he trust abraham?

Captain Canada · 08-12-2003, 09:54 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by MacGnG
God was testing Abraham. so the test was only one question, and it was a trick question. the point is that abraham passed.

If abraham did not trust God, how could he trust abraham?

You my friend answered the question perfectly. It was only a test. He needed to see if Abraham trusted God.

nietzsche · 08-13-2003, 01:25 PM

I think you are missing the point here, yes it was a test Im not denying that.

But what kind of God would ask any of his followers that? Why not ask something of personal sacrifice like one's own life. Why harm a child?

Another thing if a God asked you to do that would you be irrational enough to do it?

Tests of faith are one thing, attempter murder is another.

chavos · 08-13-2003, 08:26 PM

1. According to the text, is God really asking it of Abraham? There are many indications that everyone involved has every reason to believe that that's not true. See my post above.

2. Are you reading this with modern eyes, or ancient ones? Children were routinely sacrificed to the gods in caananite religious practice...YHWH uses this test to explicitly tell everyone that that is something repugnant, and that it will not be worship that YHWH will accept. To you, it's an out of the blue request that smacks of brutality....to God, its a teachable moment in which God leads the people away from infantcide. Maybe Abraham agreed all too easily...that may well be the point. YHWH uses Abrahams expectations to subvert the normal perception of what it means to be faithful to a god, and reveals the mercy and humanity that God expects of those who are faithful.

Jasmar · 08-13-2003, 09:27 PM

Well lets assume god is all knowing. If god is all knowing he knows abe is a smart old dude who knows that god will somehow stop him from killing his son or will ressurect him quickly because god has already promised him tons of decendants(and its already enough of a miracle that he had one child so he probably wasn't planning on getting any more). So it really was just a test in trust, to see if abe would give god the benefit of the doubt

Moonduck · 08-14-2003, 06:59 PM

On one level, it is a test, and an abhorrent one at that. On another, it is a viscerally direct lesson to Abraham and his peoples.

It is akin to telling someone that they are wrong for swatting a puppy with newspaper when it pees on the floor. It is cruel and mean. The proper response is that it works and it does no lasting harm. Same could be said for Abraham's test. Ignoring prophecy and Abraham's deep belief that Isaac would survive, he knew that God would not order him to do something so explicitly harmful,and that there must be something deeper behind the command. I find the story to be a profound definition of faith.

BBtB · 08-15-2003, 12:16 AM

Well first let me state that I am not Christian but this one seems pretty simple to me. What is the greatest sacrifice any parent can make? Why would God ask Abraham to kill himself to prove his faith? I mean there is a good idea, because he succeeds then he has proven himself but now he is dead. (And yes I am very aware of the whole "God could raise him from the dead" argument. I am talking more along the lines of Abrahams train of thought) But the main question is why would God, all knowing loving all caring just over all great guy, ask Abraham to do something that we see as so terribly wrong (and I would assume they still saw as wrong then too but less so)? Because it was a test. Thats all.

Sledge · 08-15-2003, 12:26 AM

Strict, complete obedience is what the God of the Old Testament required - even if it meant doing things personally abhorrent to you. By modern standards it doesn't seem like a very nice thing to do. No, well, it wasn't, but today we don't run across the total-obedience requirement that was much more prevalent in older cultures.

It's a difficult paradigm to grasp in our individualist world, but it makes sense if you push your own biases aside. Whether or not you think God's a jerk has nothing to do with anything.

mjollnir · 08-15-2003, 07:23 AM

God could have kissed my Ass

08-11-2003, 01:32 PM	#1 (permalink)
nietzsche Upright Location: The middle of a cold country	God's test of Abraham What does everyone think of God's so called test of Abraham on Mount Moriah (Genesis 22)? Does anyone agree that the intent to sacrifice one's own child is a valid test of faith or just a completely moronic act? Furthermore, this question being directed to the Judeo-Christian followers, why respect a God that requests this of someone? Before anyone points it out, yes I know God provided the ram, but Abraham didn't know he would do that. Once "Abraham stretched forth his hand, and took the knife to slay his son" what does it matter whether he completes the act or not? To me this is a god not only unworthy of worship, but worthy of condemnation. __________________ Man is condemned to be free

08-11-2003, 02:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
asaris Mad Philosopher Location: Washington, DC	Two answers real quick, since I gotta get home for dinner. 1. How much time do you have? 2. Have you read Fear and Trembling (by Soren Kierkegaard)? Fear and Trembling is essentially a philosophical examination of the problem of Abraham. It's sad that a lot of Christians don't really take it seriously, but this sort of case would seem to be a real sticking point. Briefly, I would say I have no idea. The command to sacrifice one's child for God is a fearful thing to command. But, because I'm a Christian, I trust that God knows what he's doing. I can't understand how it could be good, but I trust that it was. Incidentally, I have a set of notes typed up on Fear and Trembling, that I can email you if you're really interested, but they're too long to post here. __________________ "Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht." "The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm." -- Friedrich Nietzsche

08-11-2003, 02:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
nietzsche Upright Location: The middle of a cold country	1. All the time in the world 2. No, writes it down I'll put it on my list of books to read though, thanks __________________ Man is condemned to be free

08-11-2003, 10:01 PM	#5 (permalink)
HeadyIncognito Crazy Location: PDX	Religion is rather twisted. __________________ Even Hitler had a girlfriend...

08-13-2003, 01:25 PM	#9 (permalink)
nietzsche Upright Location: The middle of a cold country	I think you are missing the point here, yes it was a test Im not denying that. But what kind of God would ask any of his followers that? Why not ask something of personal sacrifice like one's own life. Why harm a child? Another thing if a God asked you to do that would you be irrational enough to do it? Tests of faith are one thing, attempter murder is another. __________________ Man is condemned to be free

08-11-2003, 09:56 PM	#4 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	more than one commentator has pointed out that Abraham knows that he won't have to even when he's asked. he has been told that he will be blessed with ancestors more numerous than the stars through isaac, and that through him, all nations will be blessed. So...it doesn't make sense that Abraham would believe that isaac will really die. More over, when he is told that sodom and gomorrah will be killed, he bargains heavily, badgering God to lower the threshold at which the cities will be saved. he makes no attempt to bargain for his own son's life...it may be becuase the threat isn't credible. Stepping out of the narrative for closing comments: To me, this is a faith story, which is told to highlight the necessity of deep trust in God. Whether or not the patriarch of Isreal was commanded to slay his son or not seems rather secondary to me. This is a saga, not a biography.

08-12-2003, 08:15 AM	#6 (permalink)
nash Psycho	Here is one guy's attempt to answer a similar question: "Why did God punish the Canaanites for child sacrifice, when He personally ORDERED Abraham to do it?!" Don't know if it'll be any help to you, but I hope you find your answers.

08-12-2003, 11:28 AM	#7 (permalink)
MacGnG Know Where!	God was testing Abraham. so the test was only one question, and it was a trick question. the point is that abraham passed. If abraham did not trust God, how could he trust abraham?

08-13-2003, 08:26 PM	#10 (permalink)
chavos Banned Location: St. Paul, MN	1. According to the text, is God really asking it of Abraham? There are many indications that everyone involved has every reason to believe that that's not true. See my post above. 2. Are you reading this with modern eyes, or ancient ones? Children were routinely sacrificed to the gods in caananite religious practice...YHWH uses this test to explicitly tell everyone that that is something repugnant, and that it will not be worship that YHWH will accept. To you, it's an out of the blue request that smacks of brutality....to God, its a teachable moment in which God leads the people away from infantcide. Maybe Abraham agreed all too easily...that may well be the point. YHWH uses Abrahams expectations to subvert the normal perception of what it means to be faithful to a god, and reveals the mercy and humanity that God expects of those who are faithful. Last edited by chavos; 08-13-2003 at 10:28 PM..

08-13-2003, 09:27 PM	#11 (permalink)
Jasmar Crazy	Well lets assume god is all knowing. If god is all knowing he knows abe is a smart old dude who knows that god will somehow stop him from killing his son or will ressurect him quickly because god has already promised him tons of decendants(and its already enough of a miracle that he had one child so he probably wasn't planning on getting any more). So it really was just a test in trust, to see if abe would give god the benefit of the doubt

08-14-2003, 06:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
Moonduck Junkie Location: SE USA	On one level, it is a test, and an abhorrent one at that. On another, it is a viscerally direct lesson to Abraham and his peoples. It is akin to telling someone that they are wrong for swatting a puppy with newspaper when it pees on the floor. It is cruel and mean. The proper response is that it works and it does no lasting harm. Same could be said for Abraham's test. Ignoring prophecy and Abraham's deep belief that Isaac would survive, he knew that God would not order him to do something so explicitly harmful,and that there must be something deeper behind the command. I find the story to be a profound definition of faith.

08-15-2003, 12:16 AM	#13 (permalink)
BBtB ClerkMan! Location: Tulsa, Ok.	Well first let me state that I am not Christian but this one seems pretty simple to me. What is the greatest sacrifice any parent can make? Why would God ask Abraham to kill himself to prove his faith? I mean there is a good idea, because he succeeds then he has proven himself but now he is dead. (And yes I am very aware of the whole "God could raise him from the dead" argument. I am talking more along the lines of Abrahams train of thought) But the main question is why would God, all knowing loving all caring just over all great guy, ask Abraham to do something that we see as so terribly wrong (and I would assume they still saw as wrong then too but less so)? Because it was a test. Thats all. __________________ Meridae'n once played "death" at a game of chess that lasted for over two years. He finally beat death in a best 34 out of 67 match. At that time he could ask for any one thing and he could wish for the hope of all mankind... he looked death right in the eye and said ... "I would like about three fiddy"

08-15-2003, 12:26 AM	#14 (permalink)
Sledge Pasture Bedtime	Strict, complete obedience is what the God of the Old Testament required - even if it meant doing things personally abhorrent to you. By modern standards it doesn't seem like a very nice thing to do. No, well, it wasn't, but today we don't run across the total-obedience requirement that was much more prevalent in older cultures. It's a difficult paradigm to grasp in our individualist world, but it makes sense if you push your own biases aside. Whether or not you think God's a jerk has nothing to do with anything.

08-15-2003, 07:23 AM	#15 (permalink)
mjollnir Tilted Location: Near Gainesville, FL	God could have kissed my Ass __________________ Yes I am a Pirate 200 years too late, Cannons don't thunder theres nuthin to plunder I'm an over 30 victim of fate...