cheerios

some people seem to think that there are at least a few valid reasons for suicide. Others seem to think it's all out wrong. so, my question to you is: what are good reasons to kill yourself? Is it ever justified?

My opinion, is that cases of extreme pain, where going on just isn't an option, justified suicide. I do not think that said pain must be physical. Perminant psychological torture is just as painful as physical torture, and I don't see the need for distinction between the two. I often hear that suicide is selfish, because people don't think of the one's they leave behind. This perplexes me, because whenever I was hurting, I was always told to take care of myself, before worrying about others. Which is it?

Chamberdweller

Well i think the problem with judgeing whether or not suicide can be justifiable is that there's so many thing's telling you whether it can be or not. Religion, family, society, friends, whatever culture you hang around, and your personal thought's and beliefs, but i have alway's believed that if you are in so much mental or physical pain that you can't go on and you see NO possible way or there is no possible way to make it stop then there is such a thing as justifiable suicide. Well thats my two cent's.

<(^_^)>

__________________
"The only thing with more brains than Kirk Cobain is the wall behind him."-Said by my best friend Ryan

I come and stand at every door. But no one hears my silent tread. I knock and yet remain unseen. For I am dead, for I am dead.I'm only seven although I died. In Hiroshima long ago. I'm seven now as I was then. When children die they do not grow.My hair was scorched by swirling flame. My eyes grew dim, my eyes grew blind. Death came and turned my bones to dust. And that was scattered by the wind.I need no fruit, I need no rice. I need no sweet, nor even bread. I ask for nothing for myself. For I am dead, for I am dead.All that I ask is that for peace. You fight today, you fight today. So that the children of this world. May live and grow and laugh and play.

-- Nazim Hikmet

Darkblack

I don't think so.

Unless you are suffering from an incurable illness or you are 100 years old in a hospital bed suffering, there is no reason to kill yourself.

What may suck for you today may have an easy fix that you have not found yet.

Most people that commit suicide think there is no one around that cares if they are gone or not but in reality a lot of people care. There are entire centers of people that care enough to volunteer time to talk you out of killing yourself.

Life can be suck but there is always something good going on in your life. You just have to find that something and latch onto it until everything else evens out a bit.

alpha phi

I've always looked at suicide as a permanant soultion to a temporary problem!
I suppose the terminal illness thing could be a valid exception for some people.
for me.........haveing no exceptions, has kept me from becomeing suicidal

__________________

seretogis

Suicide is always justified to those who attempt it. It is a hasty response to negative pressure, of course, but to suggest that there are "valid reasons" and "invalid reasons" for suicide is a bit unusual.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

Fallon

I'm probably goin to step on some toes with this, but one of my ex-gf's, when she was a child, her father molested her. He also would beat on her on occassion, and various other things. She tried to commit suicide many times, for which I don't blame her. I don't think anyone can call that a temporary problem. She's going to suffer from those abuses for the rest of her life. Now don't get me wrong, I wouldn't like to see her commit suicide, but being someone who somewhat knows her position, I wouldn't blame her for it.

Peetster

Had she succeeded, Fallon, it would have been tragic. You aren't suggesting that ending her own life would have been justified, are you? There is a world of difference between a botched suicidal cry for help and ending your life.

Fallon

Yes indeed, it would have been tragic, nor am I saying that it would have been justified, I'm saying I'd understand why she did it though.
I suppose for me it's easier to understand because I know the girl and know to an extent what's shes been though. Also with my previous close calls with ending my own life

sportsrule101

Ever watched "ITs a Wonderful Life", its got some truth in it. Fallon if you or your gf were no longer alive, you wouldn't be there to comfort each other. People can be worn down and not in there "right" mind but hopefully they won't go all the way, but will escape whatever is exasperating them.

__________________
winning isn't everything but
losing isn't anything

Fallon

But, if they weren't there, I wouldn't know that I'd be missing them. It's an interesting argument to say, if they are dead, you'd be different. Yes, that's quite true. I most certainly would be different, but I'm the way I am right now because of the steps in life that I have taken, and the steps that those around me have taken. Because of some of the people I knew killing themselves, I've also taken different steps.

Now for my ex-gf, she's going to be tormented by what's happened to her, and it's not suddenly not be a problem for her anymore.

Sen

Justifiable suicide is an interesting concept. I can't think of any situaitons off the top of my head where you would be justified to sit down and end your life.

However, I can think of some situations where the circumstances dictate that if you take action A, then you will die. I think that would fall into the realm of suicide and could be considered justifiable. For instance: Any action that appears to be certain death for you, but you willingly make that decsion in order to save someone else.

__________________
"I want to announce my presence with authority!"

"You want to what?"

"I want to announce my presence with authority!!"

wilywampa

what if your choice is between suicide and being tortured to death, like if you are captured as a POW by fighters known to torture soldiers they capture?

Minx

Personally I think that most people commit suicide in order to run from their conceived (or real) problems. I view it as the proverbial easy way out. I do believe though that it would be justifiable in extreme cases of illness.
My Mother's best friend nursed her own Mother through years of cancer treatment. She watched her wither and die slowly in vast vast amounts of pain over the course of a long period of time. Once she had passed on, my Mother's friend told her that she would kill herself in order to not have to go through that herself or to put family members through it. Makes you stop and think. If I saw my own Mother in intense pain and knew that there was no solution and the end result would be the same....I would do my damndest to allow her a quick and painless death compared to possible years of suffering.

And....good point firefly you made about being a POW. I think then a lot of people would view suicide in a different light.

__________________
You've been a naughty boy....go to my room!

seretogis

What do you think are the determining factors in whether suicide is "justified" or not? Is immense physical pain a factor, but psychological/emotional pain is not?

From my experience, my emotional scars have been much more painful than physical. The times that I've seriously thought about suicide have been times of intense emotional duress, not times when I was physically ill for days or weeks.

__________________
seretogis - sieg heil
perfect little dream the kind that hurts the most, forgot how it feels well almost
no one to blame always the same, open my eyes wake up in flames

anti fishstick

i think the only justifiable suicide is doctor assisted suicide. if i'm a vegetable, if i'm living on machines to keep me alive.. i dont think i'd want to keep on living. whats the point? what joys do i see? i'm just..breathing. when animals suffer, the right thing to do is end their life bcos it's better to be dead than to suffer physically until death. why isn't it the same for humans?

but generally, i don't think suicide is the answer at -all-. it is a cry for help. it is the easy way out. life, with all it's emotions and ups and downs, IS suffering. there will be moments when you'll suffer. some more than others for different reasons. truama. depression. etc. but its part of living. if it's not time to die, then you have to start living.

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

Fallon

So, hypothetical response here. Let's say I'm Timmy, a 22 year old who's got nothing to account for in his life, he can't say anything good about his life, all of the choices he's had to make have been hard ones. Such as, live here till next month, or eat? He's never had an easy choice in his life. Finally he starts contemplating suicide, and finally decides that he's going to...
Now, is that him taking "the easy way out?"

edit: Just want to make sure to say that the situation above about housing or food would have been one of his easier ones.

carl0z

My friends 15 year old brother got his 14 year old girlfriend preggie and she died in childbirth with the baby. After this he killed himself. I found that justifiable.

__________________
wank-free since 30 mins ago.
join the partnership for a wank-free tfp

spectre

I've mentioned before that there was a point in my life where I was on an extremely high dose of morphine while hospitalized. The morphine was (obviously) for an extreme amount of pain that I was in. During that period, the doctors didn't think there would be much of a chance of survival. During that point, when I knew I was going to die in a horribly drawn out and painful manner, the thought of suicide did enter my mind. Luckily, I didn't want to act on it. Before and after, I didn't want to do it, but the thought during that time was there.

After all of that, I still agree with the idea of assisted suicide. I know what it's like to sit in pain, knowing that my last moments would only be pain. I didn't like that thought much even though I would never had acted on it, even given the opportunity.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

anti fishstick

i only said it's an easy way out because life IS hard. killing yourself as the solution to it would be the easiest thing to do. why not think about your situation, how you could change it positively, and act on that? sure, it'll be hard as hell and won't change overnight, but what have you got to lose, really. if life works against you, learn to make it work for you. with confidence and action comes freedom.

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

Sen

While I can certainly understand why a person would want to commit suicide in that situation and certainly wouldn't fault someone for choosing suicide, I personally would not think it's justified. I think that suicide as an escape from great physical or mental pain is not the answer. Pain is temporary and can be tolerated or dealt with on some level.

__________________
"I want to announce my presence with authority!"

"You want to what?"

"I want to announce my presence with authority!!"

Sleepyjack

i think suicide or euthanasia is justified. However, i can't really comment on the other because i have never experienced such emotional pain and torment such that i'd consider doing that. That said, i have been mildly effected by some suicides and i do think it is a little selfish (no pun) in that everyone who cares about you suffers because of you. But that might be unreasonable to some... i dunno.

cheerios

ah, but sleepyjack, what if that's part of the revenge? "You people have hurt me all my life, and now, in escaping the misery, i can get something back."

The only thing more painful than feeling like you need to commit suicide, is failing. Failed suicides are NOT "cries for help." At least, not in my opinion. Failed suicides are a way of life telling you you're a failure, even at failing. Hell, not getting the guts up enough to do it is just one more kick in the ass as well. (gee, can we tell cheers had some probs when she was younger? )

SiN

how so?

i don't understand..

because he would've had to live with his 'mistake' (of having unprotected sex at such a young age and her actually going thru the pregnancy..just to die at the end of it..) all his life..

or because of the 'oh no, woe is he, young love, so perfect, that was lost'...

or, what?

i am sorry if i'm missing something here, but i just don't get it.

__________________

cheerios

because he caused the death of one he loved?

Fallon

I don't believe that, no I don't believe that at all. So, like someone said above, "because an animal is probably feeling pain, we can put it down" but someone who is feeling pain doesn't morally have that choice?
I have to agree with Cheerios, it might have been done to get back at some of the people. I know I'm not totally right in the head, but I've said to myself, "If I kill myself now, they'll feel like shit because they are the one that caused me to do it." I haven't been like that for a year, but I do remember distinctly having those feelings.
I'm hesitant to say that this is justified. Like I said earlier, I have empathy to this situation. I can't say I understand it, but I can feel for this persons loss. Unless we personally have been thrown in this situation, I don't really think we have a right to comment on if it's justified or not. We can take from this others experience and hopefully use it to help us along...

edit: fixed my improper word usage

Sleepyjack

do you mean empathy?

cause i thought it was truly saddening (the story)....

although i agree with what else you have said. Fortunatly i haven't suffered any kind of torment, scuh that i'd consider ending my life, so i have no experience to comment on suicide, cause i have only seen it from one side.
But the least we can do is to try and be empathetic with everyone, and not just with suicide, but with everything that people do in life.

Fallon

Ya, sorry, I got my words confused and my brain was running in a different direction

spectre

Not all pain. The pain I talked about, morphine couldn't touch. It's not that uncommon in some conditions that the heaviest available pain killers will do little or nothing to help ease the pain.

__________________
"Fuck these chains
No goddamn slave
I will be different" ~ Machine Head

Sen

Perhaps my choice in words was a poor one. I understand that there is some pain that cannot be helped by pain killers. I, for one, get very little relief from morphine as well. And I also understand that there are some conditions that will cause physical pain until you die.

I was thinking more along the lines of there being ways to "deal" with pain. Not that it goes away, or even that it isn't still a distraction. But, I have known several people that were/are terminally ill and in a great deal of pain, but can manage the pain because they understand that there are still reasons to live and they can still make an impact on this world.

I think if people commit suicide because physical existence is uncomfortable, they would be doing a diservice to themselves on a supernatural/metaphysical level (because life still has experiences left for them) and definitely a disservice to those around them who care for them.

Whether or not you believe in an afterlife or religion in general, it is undeniable that your actions, and therefore your existence has some immeasureable effect on those around you. Whether they are loved ones, or people in a position to observe from a distance, i.e. other medical staff who may be inspired by your determination to continue to fight your condition, there are people in this world that you will impact and never even know it.

__________________
"I want to announce my presence with authority!"

"You want to what?"

"I want to announce my presence with authority!!"

ARTelevision

I don't see the need to parse it or rationalize it.
If a person isn't in charge of his or her own life, who is?
I'd say the valid reasons for suicide are personal, period.

__________________
create evolution

Xell101

Astronauts and Special Ops come to mind.

Other than when drastic measure need to be undertaken, I am opposed to suicide, seems like a waste of life and a quite permanent solution to a temporary problem.

WhoaitsZ

quote:Originally posted by Sen
Pain is temporary and can be tolerated or dealt with on some level.


uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuhhhhhhhhh.. no

when you're a 17 year old guy in so much pain after heavy doses of morphine or demerol that you cry tears from pain because you turn your fucking head wrong is NOT just a 'gee it'll be over tomorrow'

i understand that some people cannot grasp true physical pain. its ok. i hope you never have that pain. but never be so cocky or knowing that its just not possible or that bad.

walk the walk before talking the talk dude.

jack_j

i don't see how people can comment on morals... i mean they are different for everyone so i would understand if people sat down and discussed "i think it would be ok if *I* did this... or that"... but talking about what other people should and shouldn't do is pretty pointless... ofcourse this is only true with things that are causing no harm to other people... i mean my choice is what i choose to do, and if i'm causing no harm it shouldn't bother you...

ofcourse there are many people who will argue that suicide is causing harm to the people who care about you... however then they are just being selfish because if you really want to die - then they should respect that wish and be happy for you... besides i think people are too emotionally attatched to things to begin with....

anyways i'm not suicidal at all... i love every day i live (almost)... but i don't see how one person should be able to sit down and say whats moral for someones desicion that doesn't concern them...

anti fishstick

i dont think any one should feel, or does feel, HAPPY that someone would choose to commit suicide.

__________________
And the day came when the risk to remain tight in a bud was more painful than the risk it took to blossom.
~Anais Nin

jack_j

if someone accomplishes a goal that they want - as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else, i'm happy

jack_j

and i don't mean happy as in enthuisiastic like "hey lets throw a party..." i just mean content with the way things are...

mrquackers

I'd have to give it serious thought if I was diagnosed with Alzheimers. I'd hate to be a burden on my loved ones like that.

__________________
"If you're walking on thin ice, you may as well go ahead and dance."

Slims

I say you can off yourself if you have become a legitimate burden to everyone around you and society in general, or if you are in the last stages of a terminal illness.

Short of that, you have an obligation to live, even if you don't want to. Your parents/guardians and society have a huge investment in you, and you owe them.

I have been suicidal before, and I know how easy it is to into that kind of funk for no good reason, and how easy it is to get out after you get your head screwed on straight. I have been more or less happy for many years now, and even when I feel down, I don't think about suicide anymore.

That, I think, is where the tragedy of suicide lays. I feel like many people who kill themselves do so prematurely when they woulod have turned the corner in a few days or weeks and realized the value of their lives.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Sen

I am not in any way claiming to understand whatever you went through, nor am I in any way trying to diminish your pain. However, it is equally cocky for you to assume that I don't understand tremendous physical pain.

I have a post over in the Sports section of this site in a thread about "your worst sports moment" in which I detail that I BROKE MY OWN ARM THROWING A FASTBALL IN A GAME. The humerous literally shattered because of the torque and amount of force that I put on my arm throwing a baseball. After 2 reconstructive surgeries, plates and screws, radial nerve damage and 2 years of physical therapy, I believe that I have a pretty firm grasp on pain. Furthermore, I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread that Morphine doesn't do any good for me, either.

Pain doesn't have to go away "tomorrow," as you stated, to be temporary. I still don't think taking your own life is the answer.

__________________
"I want to announce my presence with authority!"

"You want to what?"

"I want to announce my presence with authority!!"

XenuHubbard

I'd say that the reason for committing suicide is irrellevant. The prerequisite would be to be absolutely sure that there's nobody left behind that would miss you, or be affected by your death.

Suicide as revenge is about as low as anybody can go.

And seriously, if I ever would find it an option, I would go and rob a bank first. Suicide works in both prison, and a five-star hotel in the Riviera. So why not take the chance?
And once I'd get to the Riviera, I might not want to die anymore.

__________________
The above was written by a true prophet. Trust me.

"What doesn't kill you, makes you bitter and paranoid". - SB2000