audioguru

An interesting topic to be sure.

I know a lot of non religious possibly atheist men who are very successful business men. When one of them says "keep the faith" it is referring to believing in good outcomes even when things look tough, which are then in fact manifested because you had faith in a good outcome. It is faith in an outcome, possibly tied with faith in yourself and your abilities that allows you to make very tough things happen.

Loose that faith in a good outcome and you give up, which in turn manifests an assured failure.

That is the key to faith, believing in things going right allows the power of the mind to be unleashed. The person who believes he can overcome obstacles and opposition and does everything at his disposal to make it happen has a chance, especially when the original faith in a good outcome was based on viability.

I explored many religions, and what I saw as a common denominator was that any religious faith's success stories of turning someone's life around who was on skid row due to newfound faith are similar. The person who is at bottom turns loose of all negativity and grasps at something to believe in. The fact that their mind becomes open makes it open to the power of positive thoughts which then allows them to start making the positive changes that allow success to come into their life. The real power is all the individual who has become powerful in a positive direction due to something to believe in.

I came away from the exploration of religions with an unshakable faith in myself and my abilities. I have committed to things others said couldn't happen and made them work through sheer force of will.

The question has been put to me in a lot of ways, "Keith, what is it you believe in, everyone has to believe in something". My response is that I believe in myself, and that belief is as powerful as anyone's belief in a religious concept. The only real difference is that a belief in myself allows constant assessment of changing circumstances, religions make people walk a pretty set line that doesn't work in many instances (Like politics for one).

iFishVideos

Faith is a very deep subject. Do you believe that?

bagatelle

As much as George Michael does.

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jewels

If you do, you have faith?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

lunxpress

Faith in the elevator stopping on your floor is assumed probability. Faith associated with religion is a collective construct to perpetuate and validate the time you spend worshiping something you have no tangible evidence even exists.

How can you have faith in a world that is constantly in flux? The elevator usually stops on 3, but one day that will cease, too.

So, I guess I have faith in the ephemeral nature of everything.

urville

No determination either way as to the scope of what the impact positive or negative is of the ephemeral nature of everything? Do you trust in the outcome either way I guess is my question? or believe it to be a certain way or have any certain meaning?

Poetry

I'm only responding in part about faith in humanity and the self, as the rest of the questions don't apply to me.


When I drive over a bridge, I have faith that the builders, designers, manufacturers, likely did a good job and the bridge will then likely not collapse under me.

This is not because of a faith in their desire to do a good job, provide a safe service, or other such things, but a faith in that people act in their best interests.

If the bridge collapsed, their company would collapse, their finances would collapse, their reputation, their current life style, would be destroyed.

They build a safe bridge to protect themselves and make a profit.

They take shortcuts, make mistakes, when they feel that the potential for disaster outweighed by the potential for financial- or time-gain. It is my hope that they accurately gauge this.

I do not rely on other people to act outside of their character.

I have faith in their established behavior patterns. That some people will be reliable, that others will not, that some you can tell secrets to and others you must tell nothing. That each of these traits is something that is established by their own subconscious measure of profit/loss or pleasure/pain.

Some people do charitable things because it makes them feel good. Some people do not do charitable things because they derive more pleasure from spending time on their own interests than those of others.

I have faith in this.

And I have faith in myself to access these internal motivators in the people that surround me, and I have faith that if I gauge wrong, I will recover from whatever situation occurs.

The rest is meaningless.

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"You know what? Fuck the moon! He controls our water and our women. I've had enough!"

lunxpress

Why would anyone believe in something they cannot prove? Since faith is a belief that is not based in proof, wishful thinking, is all it can be.
Faith is a mental projection toward a positive outcome. Assuming the elevator will stop at the floor you have designated does not come down to faith, but probability. I have no faith in machines. They break and get old, I don’t have faith that it won’t happen on my watch, but I will assume that it won’t, based on probability. In the 1000 times that I have ridden the lift to my 3rd floor office, this machine has, thus far, been reliable. Based on past experience, which is not proof but probability, it will stop on the floor I programmed it to. Mathematical statistics suggest to me that it probably won’t break down, but the fact that it has the potential to eliminates any undying faith I might have mustered up for my own security purposes.

Sheepy

i think this discussion leads to even greater question

If faith can lead to false beliefs, what value can there be in having faith?
presuming there a God, is it reasonable to believe we could be punished for not having it?

Richard Dawkins says 'Faith is one of the worlds greatest evils.'
(*nudge* .... interesting he uses the word evil? )

I know that A Lion, A Witch and a Wardrobe was written heavily based on the religious idea of faith!

Baraka_Guru

What's wrong with wishful thinking?

I think it's in our nature to do this. Whether it takes the form of spiritual pursuits or in using well-established technology is another matter. For the record, I don't consider faith in an elevator to operate properly to be particularly fascinating. However, I think it helps illustrate what happens in faith from a wider perspective; namely, the observation of phenomenon and the understanding of its cause and effect.

Many of us cause each other (and even ourselves) pain because of our failure to observe these things. It doesn't matter whether your religious or not. It still takes place.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

filtherton

People believe in things they cannot prove all of the time. It isn't that big of a deal. It's something that's actually required to function in the modern world. All this "probability" talk is just a fancy way of saying that you have faith without actually saying it. Without a formal probabilistic model in mind, you're just co-opting the language of probability and projecting it over a framework of faith in order to obscure the presence of that faith.

Here's where I see faith in your statement: I think you have faith in your ability to generate accurate predictions via extrapolation. You have faith that a series of abstractions based on arbitrary axioms can accurately predict reality.

Statisticians take matters on faith all of the time. All statistical models have assumptions. Frequently, these assumptions can not be verified with certainty and so must be taken on faith (and diagnostic tests).


I don't think the problem with faith is that it can lead to false beliefs. All ways of making sense of the world can lead to false beliefs. The problem with faith is that it can't always be easily modified via rational argument - it isn't very adaptable. There are some places where this is good. I have faith that my children love me. So that when they yell "I hate you!" because I won't let them do some thing that they really want to do, I don't actually think that they hate me.

jewels

Reading through this thread again helped me to realize a couple of things so far.

1. My use of the word "luck" was not meant in a supernatural or magical leprechaun way. What I meant to convey was more of a blind luck idea, more in line with ratios and probabilities. I'm no mathmetician, but somehow it's a given that if I walk out the door, odds are high that the sun will be out at 7:00 a.m.

2. What Filth said about false beliefs was right on. If we didn't believe in SOMEthing, why would we go on? Would you still go to classes if you knew you wouldn't pass, or earn a degree? Would you go to work if you didn't have faith that you would earn a paycheck?

I think it was mentioned as a possibility in the OP. Noodle is the only one who stated it with certainty but now I have to agree. I go to work because I have faith that I will bring a paycheck home. Although my employer issues the check, I know it would be up to me to find another means to a paycheck if my employer went under, so it always falls back to me. I have faith my children will love me because I raised them with love. It seems its all up to me.

Whaddya think? Rationalization or truth?

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

girldetective

I have faith in people and it always scares the shit out of me though when I think too clearly about it.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Queastor

It seems easier to just not use the word faith to be honest. The word trust should be sufficient I would think.

Ourcrazymodern?

What my faith teaches?
Not much when it's unexpressed,
so I press forward.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT