Domesticated humans - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

rahl · 03-25-2010, 03:06 PM

You are ignoring the fact that ever society in history has used some form of currency. You are also ignoring the fact that not everyone has the ability nor the knowledge to make for themselves everything that they want. This is where the trading of goods and services comes into play(currency).

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-25-2010, 03:47 PM

The horse, domesticated,
once it's as dead as it can become,
deserves no further beating.

rahl · 03-25-2010, 03:57 PM

point taken

Zeraph · 03-25-2010, 07:57 PM

Sorry I missed most of the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

Where did I say "free lunch" ? Do you really think you need to build <x> to obtain the basics ? So you want to say people will be bored without bosses ? Of course , because they have been killed. Transformed. if they can't find happiness without somebody telling them what to do. You can do whatever you want. You can even work more, inside the system, or do what you like - outside of it.

TANSTAAFL is an adage. It has nothing to do with actual lunches (well little). Robert Heinlein, a scifi author, used the adage a lot. He was pretty much a genius (IMO). You might enjoy reading some of his stuff, especially since you're interested in economics. It/I'm referring to the fact you want something for nothing. A lot of the points have already been made, so I'll stop short.

That you automatically paint the people who are bored after retirement as dependent on bosses is insulting. Most of the people I've met in person got bored because they liked to produce and be useful to society. They were often their own bosses and quite self-driven (police chiefs, artists, etc.). Not a slave, or dead inside, like you imply.

And I'm aware of the gift-giving-economies. I almost majored in anthropology and spent a lot of time learning about them. What you fail to mention is all the bad things that come along with it. For one, gift giving was a status symbol. No different than buying fancy cars. Chiefs would purposefully give away things -and- break things for no reason other than to assert their status as the most wealthy members of their tribe. It also sparked warfare between the tribes if one tribe felt slighted.

Not to mention the fact that all those societies would be considered 3rd world poverty economies. By and large they lived in huts and were riddled with parasites. Their life expectancy was like 30-40s or worse. If you were poor and didn't give enough gifts you could be ostracized. The gift-giving-economies are hardly better than our own, much worse in my opinion.

pai mei · 03-25-2010, 11:34 PM

Zeraph, they did not die at 40 from "hard life" or disease. You were more likely to die at 40 living here in "civilization". Yes - you look back in history and imagine knights and kings living 100 years. Look at the serfs, slaves, or the early city people. They were 90% of the population.

Tarahumara tribe: http://www.menshealth.com/men/fitnes...10000013281eac winning a marathon at 58
Hadza tribe: http://ngm.nationalgeographic.com/20.../finkel-text/1 they don't care what year it is. or what month, day, hour. Imagine that. I have to look at the clock, and get to bed early, work tomorrow. Repeat. Die. They get to sit by the fire each evening, for as long as they want. And they are not just "waiting for us to save them".

Give me some links. Benjamin Franklin said - people were running from "us" to live with them. Maybe because they liked being stressed with that horrible "gift economy".
The real "gift economy" : you hunt something you share with your camp. You depend on them and they on you. You know everyone else would do the same. That's the culture you were brought up in. Imagine a group of friends, they are on a mountain trip and only one eats. Maybe even asks for "compensation" from others if they want to eat!

Hunter Gatherers And The Golden Age Of Man

Quote:

When I say hunter gatherers, you think nasty, brutish and short, and that's a misconception that's kept us in an exhausting race we can't win for 10,000 years.

They're actually generally well fed, have more time off, and better sex lives than most of us protestant work ethic fools.

The hamster wheel of our lives keeps us lunging for the dangling carrot, unaware that somewhere in a remote desert, in a land so desolate that our ancestors thought it unworthy of seizure, there are men and women with easily-filled stomachs napping and socializing as we spend ourlives in toil.

Again - I am not writing here for us to return to that. It's impossible. Too many of us. I am proposing a system that saves the planet and frees people.

http://www.insurgentdesire.org.uk/egocide.htm

Quote:

This is the primal war: the refusal of life to be domesticated. It is the refusal of wildness to become ordered and civilized. It is the spirit that refuses to die.

It is not about a certain people, place or time: it is about life. Those who know that spirit without mediation have always put up the hardest fight. There was no fight or revolution for abstract ideals, for some unknown or unknowable place of undefined and questionable freedom as individuals. The fight was about something felt, something innate. The fight, then, now and always, is the rage of the spirit of life and wildness. It knows no isolation or mediation. It grows through the cracks in the sidewalk and the refusal of toxins in our bodies. It will stop for nothing and it is extremely deadly.

Shauk · 03-26-2010, 01:33 AM

eh, this inspired me to rewrite this in my own perspective.

That of the have not fringe of society and it's rules of domestication (me) vs that of my friends/family, and most people I know (them)

Quote:

You and I, we're simply a living creature. We create systems of order, systems of control, but don't you think that ultimately, we fall victim to our own creations?

We're taught and generally socially accepting of the idea of domesticated pets. Even I see the spiritual/emotional benefit of having a domesticated dog as a companion. A domesticated dog knows no better. Dogs may be domesticated but somewhere deep down, the feral, wild instinct still lurks within some of the more "fight" worthy dogs. I mean you see it from time to time, dog flips out and kills owner/child/cat whatever, gets put down.

In most cases, they're not "trained" to do that. It's usually a complete surprise. "oh but the dog was so kind" they'll say.

flip the role. Lets talk about humans for a moment.

Rules, Laws, Government, Society as a whole, protocol, manners, traditions, holidays, learned mannerisms, layers and layers of it. All man made, an evolution of training regimen from the day of birth, learning to walk, learning to use a toilet, learning to use utensils, learning to create a variety of meals, learning how to use basic technologies, learning to drive, learning a native language, learning society's views on right vs wrong, learning the laws, learning just how dunking the dry towel of a human being in to the pools of society and pulling it out, tossing it in to the pile of other towels and seeing how the juices flow together, just the tip of the iceberg.

Are we animals in a zoo? do we perform for treats? is the dollar our snack? answer that phone call 200 times a day, we'll give you a set amount of rewards per hour, redeem the rewards for status in your animal kingdom, the house, the car, the clothes, the confidence.

What then, is a jobless human being in today's society?

Did you know that people who are laid off/unemployed often suffer from depression? are more likely to commit suicide?

I just found this out recently and it BOGGLES my mind.

See I have a very very different viewpoint on unemployment.

I've always viewed it as a social pressure, a means to an end. Entrepreneurs always come across like the jackals of the dog pack to me, not quite fitting in, but definitely bearing teeth of their own.

I think, we're "trained" to impulsively think of being jobless as an undesirable element. We instantly associated it with being a pup, having to have providers, not being able to fend for themselves.

For a limited time only I feel I've been offered a taste of freedom that most people don't get to experience. While my friends and acquaintances go about the routine, performing within the zoo of society, I walk around outside of the pens, but for the most part, the zoo is so well built, so well tended, so efficient a machine, that you can't help but want back in.

So here I sit pondering the situation, why?

Why would I want back in?

because we're tribal. Since the dawn of time, even cavemen were believed to be tribal, people of their own race tend to stick together, people of similarity, birds of a feather, social cliques, co-workers, or people who share a common interest (a party scene, a hobby, family)

The working and non-working, 2 totally different castes, mostly the non-working are associated with being unkempt, mangy outcasts, compared to the well groomed sophisticated working class.

Well, that said, I have never felt depressed because of not working, I only felt lonely because in this zoo, it's very rare to find any animals outside of their pens to pack up and be tribal with that actually recognize that it's freedom from an ages long system of control and conditioning that we're responsible for perpetuating by participating.

Given the alternative though, I can't help but think that participation is the only real choice. Being a stray, being free, by yourself. It amounts to little when the experience isn't shared with those you care about.

I guess, it's better to exist in servitude in good company, than exist in freedom alone.

Hope I don't seem like I'm ripping off the concept of this thread. I am not 100% in line with what the OP is stating here with my post I don't think, this is just a slightly different parallel that really makes no solid claims of being right or wrong, just lots of wondering out loud.

pai mei · 03-26-2010, 06:43 AM

Look here. Maybe this looks more real to you than those children working in Bangladesh :

http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...y-economy.html

Millions of people fighting to do anything so that they can access the basics. Everywhere, including here in my country Romania. Why ? Aren't we superior to the hunter gatherers ?

And I mean anything. If someone would pay me more and say "You dig a hole, fill it up , repeat, all day". I would take that job no question asked. Why should I "Homo Sapiens" (what a joke) care ? And some say all this madness is "our desire"... Just blackmailed people trying to survive.

In my system this would not happen. People would have the basics, and the period working for them, then - free to get whatever they desire from life. The system will not allow them to involve other people that don't have the same desires. It will not be a law it will be just how things are. You can't force anyone to work for what he does not care about, you can do it only by blackmail, he has to access the basics and he can't do it any other way.

Zeraph · 03-26-2010, 12:51 PM

I think I'll trust the word of several professors and several text books over yours (and pop articles...) While the Tarahumara can have long lifespans they aren't perfect, and are more of a lucky glitch in our history. You also fail to mention (again) that the Tarahumara have a crazy high infant mortality rate. So that while some can live to a ripe old age, on the average they are worse off than most of us. They are also practically being wiped out by drug cartels.

Even if the stats were more favorable it does not mean your system works just because it may have for a small select group of people for several hundred years. You're talking about implementing something that requires hundreds of thousands of years, or however long our race is to last.

Which brings up another point. We cannot have space exploration under your system. It is extremely expensive. Which vastly limits our race's lifespan if we cannot move to other planets some day.

You're refusing to look at human nature. While I'd love to live like you suggest, it is both flawed and unrealistic. I don't know why you think the mafias and dictators and cartels would change their ways. It's like saying, "If only every single human would become wise and reasonable the world would be a better place!" Well no duh. It's not going to happen no matter how much you explain a "perfect" system. At least not anytime soon.

You seem to think that "evil" humans invented the current way of life and have "forgotten" how to live peacefully and wisely. That's like saying humans invented murder and war which is just bullshit. Animals go to war with each other all the time. They murder each other for resources or mating privileges just as humans have for thousands of years. It ain't gonna suddenly change.

pai mei · 03-26-2010, 01:37 PM

No. This - the current system requires perfect humans. Mafia ? Doing what ? Selling drugs ? On what ? There are no money. Stealing food ? It's not worth it. The security - in my system, when you get to know your neighbors because you have time, is much better.
For people who tasted freedom - nobody can steal it. For today's people it's enough for 1 madman (Hitler) to come and make them do what he wants.

Space Exploration: it will happen in my system. People are curious. Young people - for sure. School kills natural curiosity. I am not against learning. So - being curious, hearing there was a time people got to the Moon, and having all the free time in the world, passionate people will research and work on this stuff. If they invent a flying saucer - more will join, and we will become the "flying saucer civilization". Building those ships because we want to. For real. Not like now, trashing the place, and we don't even enjoy doing it. Worse - we are competing for the basics. No tribe ever did that.
A system with free people just works. It does not require perfect people. See those street kids from the link I gave. They were somehow free. Their "organization" came natural and it worked. No need for "perfection". When you impose a system (don;t tell me nobody imposes me anything, I can't make 2 steps without following rules), you need perfect people.

Zeraph · 03-26-2010, 02:07 PM

The mafia, cartels, dictators, etc. have always been about controlling people and putting themselves on top. It doesn't matter if you eliminate money. They'll control the food then. Or whatever is valuable. Doesn't matter.

Space exploration, flat out, cannot be sustained on a 15% work force. Maybe in the far far future, but not now (which we'd never get to that level of efficiency if we went to your system). It requires highly trained individuals with a vast support network and major funding.

I know for a fact that giving "true" freedom wouldn't stop some people from abusing it and doing nasty things. I've met some of these people in real life. They don't care about you or anyone else. There will always be some people who have a good time by murdering, raping, torturing, etc. There will always be some people willing to destroy anything in their path to subjugate the rest of us.

pai mei · 03-27-2010, 01:06 AM

I said 15% for the basics. Passionate people gather and invent. Add modules to the basic system so they don;t need to start from 0 if they want. You hear someone invented the flying saucer. You have all the free time, if you are interested you go and help them build those things. If more want - people organize and you get mass production for those. The nice part: people do this if it's their choice. Free to quit whenever they want. "But what if people don't want to do that and we never get off the planet ?" So what. It's their life. Stop thinking you can use it for your ideals. Free people. We are all dead anyway. Enjoy life, and let others do the same.

About "mafia", right now we are all like plants in a cultivated field. Without constant care, insecticides, and energy used - we are gone. We are weak, and our organization needs a lot of energy just to remain standing. One single power failure in a big city- and you have no more "civilization". Because it's imposed.
I am sure - the mafia will be less likely to appear in my society.

Allowing Human Nature To Work Successfully - Jean Liedloff

Quote:

We act as though human nature were something to be afraid of; to constrain, modify or fight; to subdue and overcome. Somehow we have gotten away from believing that we evolved in a way that works. We believe that our nature has to be modified, opposed and controlled from the very beginning.

Our nature, like that of every other animal, works fine the way it is. But we do not trust human nature. We distrust it in infants, in children, and in ourselves.

And we are the "mafia". We are worse in fact. We kill and destroy without knowing or thinking, just because we have to keep playing "Economy"

YouTube - Civilization! - *Some Restrictions Apply

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-27-2010, 02:23 PM

Your tongue hasn't been in your cheek the whole thread, has it? I love that video.

pai mei · 03-27-2010, 11:37 PM

Derrick Jensen

YouTube - Derrick Jensen on Identification

YouTube - This Means War (4/6)

I recommend "The culture of make believe".

What he does not see, is how all this machine begins. He has just "evil people" vs the "good nature people". Also, he has no solution. We dismantle civilization then what ? Too many of us to live without it.

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-28-2010, 10:53 AM

So you acknowledge we can't go back to the garden en masse. What's to be done with the majority who are content with their collectivist lot?

pai mei · 03-28-2010, 12:04 PM

I acknowledge what ? Read this thread, I think I said that 10 times already.
Show me the "majority" that can't wait to go to their jobs in the morning, and when they come home they tell stories and paint and sing about what they did.

That's how people used to live. That's how you used to live, even for a very short period of your life called "summer vacation". If you were lucky. But - as I said in the thread title we have been domesticated.
Where is this "happy majority" ? Why all the teens suicides ? Why are children getting depressed at the age of 7 ?! They feel the machine we are pushing them into.
"Life is not play" . Says who ? Life is play. For free beings. Look around. If there is a patch of life not covered by the machine, you will see.

Can't people be "happy" - if they get to chose what to do with their life ? You really think humans need a master to find a purpose ? Yes - domesticated humans do.
From Separation to Boredom - Ascent of Humanity

Quote:

Yet, as Ziauddin Sardar observes, boredom is virtually unique to Western culture (and by extension to the global culture it increasingly dominates). "Bedouins," he writes, "can sit for hours in the desert, feeling the ripples of time, without being bored."

Extended boredom leads to depression. The machine - is not enough. We need to experience and feel stuff for ourselves, free. We are not machines. You can't fix what we are missing - using some substances, drugs. What do you think you are ,some substances acting on some other substances ? Or acting on "you" ? "You" who ? What's that thing called conscience that makes some people do stuff - that's not always in their interest ? What's with the expression: "how do you sleep at night" ?
This machine - rewards and promotes the most transformed humans - to the top. It tries to transform everything, and the ones who are almost totally transformed - get to rule.

YouTube- She Who Measures

Ourcrazymodern? · 03-28-2010, 01:55 PM

I have read this thread, dear pai mei. I daresay you continue to disregard my questions. I sincerely hope you'll find peace of mind some day.

By the way, well done.

pai mei · 03-29-2010, 02:52 AM

What questions ?
The Gospel of Consumption | Orion Magazine

"Greater leisure, he hoped, would lead to “higher standards in school and civic . . . life” that would benefit the company by allowing it to “draw its workers from a community where good homes predominate.”

It was an attractive vision, and it worked. Not only did Kellogg prosper, but journalists from magazines such as Forbes and BusinessWeek reported that the great majority of company employees embraced the shorter workday. One reporter described “a lot of gardening and community beautification, athletics and hobbies . . . libraries well patronized and the mental background of these fortunate workers . . . becoming richer.”

See ? Now imagine people with real free time, not only a few hours a day. They have the basics, then they improve their lives as they wish. Simple.

rahl · 03-29-2010, 08:16 AM

And how exactly does one improve their lives by working less and making less money? We've already established that a civilization without currency has never existed. Human beings have always and will always want things beyond the basics. And people who don't have something simply can't make it themselves because they don't have the knowledge and resources to do so.

You are naievely trying to over simplify some type of fictitious modern utopia, that can not exist.

pai mei · 03-29-2010, 10:17 AM

Look at the above post. IF you really really want something - you will gather people who want it, and you will do it. You will also study and learn how to do it. If there are no people willing to do that, sorry. Free people. Understand that ?
The same way you don't want to waste your time learning, then working for "what you want" - why should others ? That is a real test for this "consumer civilization", then we will see how much people really want it.

Yes - no civilization with no money ever existed, but people did.

Columbus reported, "are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary, they offer to share with anyone...."

http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08...-exchange.html
"No Arguments, no treaties, nor Tears of their Friends and Relations, could persuade many of them to leave their new Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the Caressings of their Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time grew tired of our Manner of living, and run away again to the Indians, and ended their Days with them."

"But when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and have lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness toprevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the firstgood Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them."

Ourcrazymodern? · 04-22-2010, 03:05 PM

I was a little put off by the tendency. I have a haiku for you:

Making our own work
makes it all just song & dance,
so join us thinking.

No offense, pai mei, & I admit I repeat myself, but domesticity is a HUGE part of what makes us "human". I love us, & you haven't presented a "workable" plan.

pai mei · 05-19-2010, 10:41 PM

YouTube - HOME (English with subtitles)

3 million farmers produce enough for 2 billion people. And - how much of what they produce is used for stuff like coca cola and other junk foods ?

This means : 10 million farmers could produce enough for the entire planet - with today's technology ! Add 300 million (too many) - to maintain all the infrastructure needed to make the machines for the farmers, and everything else they use. Then - invent a system where people work in turns maintaining all this. The rest of the time : free to do what you want. But - no money.

03-25-2010, 03:06 PM	#41 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	You are ignoring the fact that ever society in history has used some form of currency. You are also ignoring the fact that not everyone has the ability nor the knowledge to make for themselves everything that they want. This is where the trading of goods and services comes into play(currency). __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

03-25-2010, 03:47 PM	#42 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	The horse, domesticated, once it's as dead as it can become, deserves no further beating. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-25-2010, 03:57 PM	#43 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	point taken __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

03-26-2010, 06:43 AM	#47 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Look here. Maybe this looks more real to you than those children working in Bangladesh : http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/tilted-...y-economy.html Millions of people fighting to do anything so that they can access the basics. Everywhere, including here in my country Romania. Why ? Aren't we superior to the hunter gatherers ? And I mean anything. If someone would pay me more and say "You dig a hole, fill it up , repeat, all day". I would take that job no question asked. Why should I "Homo Sapiens" (what a joke) care ? And some say all this madness is "our desire"... Just blackmailed people trying to survive. In my system this would not happen. People would have the basics, and the period working for them, then - free to get whatever they desire from life. The system will not allow them to involve other people that don't have the same desires. It will not be a law it will be just how things are. You can't force anyone to work for what he does not care about, you can do it only by blackmail, he has to access the basics and he can't do it any other way. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game" Last edited by pai mei; 03-26-2010 at 06:46 AM..

03-26-2010, 01:37 PM	#49 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	No. This - the current system requires perfect humans. Mafia ? Doing what ? Selling drugs ? On what ? There are no money. Stealing food ? It's not worth it. The security - in my system, when you get to know your neighbors because you have time, is much better. For people who tasted freedom - nobody can steal it. For today's people it's enough for 1 madman (Hitler) to come and make them do what he wants. Space Exploration: it will happen in my system. People are curious. Young people - for sure. School kills natural curiosity. I am not against learning. So - being curious, hearing there was a time people got to the Moon, and having all the free time in the world, passionate people will research and work on this stuff. If they invent a flying saucer - more will join, and we will become the "flying saucer civilization". Building those ships because we want to. For real. Not like now, trashing the place, and we don't even enjoy doing it. Worse - we are competing for the basics. No tribe ever did that. A system with free people just works. It does not require perfect people. See those street kids from the link I gave. They were somehow free. Their "organization" came natural and it worked. No need for "perfection". When you impose a system (don;t tell me nobody imposes me anything, I can't make 2 steps without following rules), you need perfect people. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game" Last edited by pai mei; 03-26-2010 at 01:41 PM..

03-26-2010, 12:51 PM	#48 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	I think I'll trust the word of several professors and several text books over yours (and pop articles...) While the Tarahumara can have long lifespans they aren't perfect, and are more of a lucky glitch in our history. You also fail to mention (again) that the Tarahumara have a crazy high infant mortality rate. So that while some can live to a ripe old age, on the average they are worse off than most of us. They are also practically being wiped out by drug cartels. Even if the stats were more favorable it does not mean your system works just because it may have for a small select group of people for several hundred years. You're talking about implementing something that requires hundreds of thousands of years, or however long our race is to last. Which brings up another point. We cannot have space exploration under your system. It is extremely expensive. Which vastly limits our race's lifespan if we cannot move to other planets some day. You're refusing to look at human nature. While I'd love to live like you suggest, it is both flawed and unrealistic. I don't know why you think the mafias and dictators and cartels would change their ways. It's like saying, "If only every single human would become wise and reasonable the world would be a better place!" Well no duh. It's not going to happen no matter how much you explain a "perfect" system. At least not anytime soon. You seem to think that "evil" humans invented the current way of life and have "forgotten" how to live peacefully and wisely. That's like saying humans invented murder and war which is just bullshit. Animals go to war with each other all the time. They murder each other for resources or mating privileges just as humans have for thousands of years. It ain't gonna suddenly change.

03-26-2010, 02:07 PM	#50 (permalink)
Zeraph Banned Location: The Cosmos	The mafia, cartels, dictators, etc. have always been about controlling people and putting themselves on top. It doesn't matter if you eliminate money. They'll control the food then. Or whatever is valuable. Doesn't matter. Space exploration, flat out, cannot be sustained on a 15% work force. Maybe in the far far future, but not now (which we'd never get to that level of efficiency if we went to your system). It requires highly trained individuals with a vast support network and major funding. I know for a fact that giving "true" freedom wouldn't stop some people from abusing it and doing nasty things. I've met some of these people in real life. They don't care about you or anyone else. There will always be some people who have a good time by murdering, raping, torturing, etc. There will always be some people willing to destroy anything in their path to subjugate the rest of us.

03-27-2010, 02:23 PM	#52 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Your tongue hasn't been in your cheek the whole thread, has it? I love that video. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-28-2010, 10:53 AM	#54 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	So you acknowledge we can't go back to the garden en masse. What's to be done with the majority who are content with their collectivist lot? __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-28-2010, 01:55 PM	#56 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I have read this thread, dear pai mei. I daresay you continue to disregard my questions. I sincerely hope you'll find peace of mind some day. By the way, well done. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

03-29-2010, 02:52 AM	#57 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	What questions ? The Gospel of Consumption \| Orion Magazine "Greater leisure, he hoped, would lead to “higher standards in school and civic . . . life” that would benefit the company by allowing it to “draw its workers from a community where good homes predominate.” It was an attractive vision, and it worked. Not only did Kellogg prosper, but journalists from magazines such as Forbes and BusinessWeek reported that the great majority of company employees embraced the shorter workday. One reporter described “a lot of gardening and community beautification, athletics and hobbies . . . libraries well patronized and the mental background of these fortunate workers . . . becoming richer.” See ? Now imagine people with real free time, not only a few hours a day. They have the basics, then they improve their lives as they wish. Simple. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

03-29-2010, 08:16 AM	#58 (permalink)
rahl Junkie Location: Ohio	And how exactly does one improve their lives by working less and making less money? We've already established that a civilization without currency has never existed. Human beings have always and will always want things beyond the basics. And people who don't have something simply can't make it themselves because they don't have the knowledge and resources to do so. You are naievely trying to over simplify some type of fictitious modern utopia, that can not exist. __________________ "Your life is Yours alone...Rise up and live it"

03-29-2010, 10:17 AM	#59 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Look at the above post. IF you really really want something - you will gather people who want it, and you will do it. You will also study and learn how to do it. If there are no people willing to do that, sorry. Free people. Understand that ? The same way you don't want to waste your time learning, then working for "what you want" - why should others ? That is a real test for this "consumer civilization", then we will see how much people really want it. Yes - no civilization with no money ever existed, but people did. Columbus reported, "are so naive and so free with their possessions that no one who has not witnessed them would believe it. When you ask for something they have, they never say no. To the contrary, they offer to share with anyone...." http://paimei01.blogspot.com/2009/08...-exchange.html "No Arguments, no treaties, nor Tears of their Friends and Relations, could persuade many of them to leave their new Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the Caressings of their Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time grew tired of our Manner of living, and run away again to the Indians, and ended their Days with them." "But when white persons of either sex have been taken prisoners young by the Indians, and have lived a while among them, tho’ ransomed by their Friends, and treated with all imaginable tenderness toprevail with them to stay among the English, yet in a Short time they become disgusted with our manner of life, and the care and pains that are necessary to support it, and take the firstgood Opportunity of escaping again into the Woods, from whence there is no reclaiming them." __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game" Last edited by pai mei; 03-29-2010 at 10:34 AM..

04-22-2010, 03:05 PM	#60 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I was a little put off by the tendency. I have a haiku for you: Making our own work makes it all just song & dance, so join us thinking. No offense, pai mei, & I admit I repeat myself, but domesticity is a HUGE part of what makes us "human". I love us, & you haven't presented a "workable" plan. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

05-19-2010, 10:41 PM	#61 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	YouTube - HOME (English with subtitles) 3 million farmers produce enough for 2 billion people. And - how much of what they produce is used for stuff like coca cola and other junk foods ? This means : 10 million farmers could produce enough for the entire planet - with today's technology ! Add 300 million (too many) - to maintain all the infrastructure needed to make the machines for the farmers, and everything else they use. Then - invent a system where people work in turns maintaining all this. The rest of the time : free to do what you want. But - no money. __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"