Words as a force of nature? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Skitto · 10-17-2009, 05:07 PM

Talking from the root of psychological attachment to words that can happen in obsessive people. I wonder if words can be used in such a way that the power of their meaning can seriously influence people and events around the user.

Example:

Take the word "perfection"
in the internal sentence, "I use the resources at hand to steer towards situational perfection"

juxtaposed with "decision"

in the same sentence, "using bold application of my decisions, I try to do the best I can with any given situation"

These can both be powerful sentences depending on the degree to which they are believed. The person who formed the sentence, whether keeping it to themselves, writing it or speaking it, forms the meaning of the sentence overall through the use of a few key words. I only pointed out one word for each sentence as an example, but there are other words that could be the sticking points for the given psyche. A person can attach a lot more meaning to "the best I can" than to the simple "perfection".

But you get what I mean?

It's about an individual's spiritual literature.

Tesla · 10-25-2009, 12:37 PM

If I understood you well, you were talking about using powerful words to influence one's mind? Well, slogans and famous quotes are all about that. Or you can explain that a little better if that's not what you were trying to say?

tisonlyi · 11-22-2009, 09:33 AM

Semantics , Pragmatics and Semiology... well, pretty much all of Linguistics.

Tesla · 11-22-2009, 11:15 AM

Duh..This thread has gone nowhere

Skitto · 11-24-2009, 08:29 PM

Indeed not! This topic should be of interest to lots more people than it has attracted.

In the form of a question, does your word choice become more effective (or impactful) the more the idea means to you?

If you build it up, will they come 'round?

Vigilante · 11-27-2009, 01:14 AM

@OP
You know, at first I thought you were talking about something like magic. I was thinking "really??" LOL

Words can do anything from changing your mood to convincing you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do, and then have no memory of it. That being the case, sure they can have an affect.

Although the way you put it sounds more like one of those cheesy business meetings where they try to raise morale or bring out that "can-do" attitude.

tisonlyi · 11-27-2009, 01:18 PM

Ok, this in me + Alcohol...

But I'll stand by what I put up there... There are probably more than one or two folks who've studied linguistics here.

Pragmatics is the study of language and context (including subjectivity and intra-subjectivity). The psychology of a producer or receiver of any given message is, by definition, part of the context of that message. Any message's meaning is heavily dependant upon that context.

What you're talking about is an ENORMOUS field of research and knowledge. I think people who know about this will be put off of replying by the amount of avenues that it's possible to go down from your speculations above and people who don't know anything about it will be put off because it seems wild.

I know you may think you've been specific, but I really think you might have hit a completely unsweet spot between two groups.

I could, of course, just be drunk.

---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ----------

There's an issue of reflexivity that you raise as well, which is CONTROVERSIALLY covered by ethnolinguistics and linguististi relativity.

you might like the papers on this lady's site:

Lera Boroditsky

Skitto · 11-30-2009, 08:23 PM

I'm just gonna call this a metapsycho-pragmatic problem within xenology...

---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ----------

Oh, and after I asked the question of "how much meaning can you put into a word before it changes minds" brought up the topic of magic under the "meaning" card in my internal rolodex.

Tesla · 12-01-2009, 09:52 AM

What xenology studies? Lol it even appears as a mistaken word ^^

Vigilante · 12-01-2009, 11:26 AM

I'm pretty sure he meant that as a joke.

Tesla · 12-01-2009, 11:47 AM

By mistaken word I meant that it was underlined with red dots like there was a grammar mistake, that's how uncommon it is.

roachboy · 12-01-2009, 11:53 AM

there's alot that could be said about the basic idea behind the op, but i hesitate to lay things out as i see them because it'd derail the thread i suspect. i'm not really interested in abstract questions of rhetoric (degree of "belief" in what you're saying & questions of persuading others devolve onto classical matters of rhetoric: belief drops away, replaced by voice, which is what would communicate belief as the latter is an inward state which admits of no particular access for others. trick is that an adequately developed voice can be made that would convey a convincing illusion of belief...which is one reason plato for example was so pissy about the sophists...but that's another matter.)

i'm more interested in the assumptions that link categories to their putative referents in the world, particularly more experience-distant ones (why is there a universe and not many? most likely because of the effects of the word universe, yes?)
there's lots of directions this sort of thing can head toward, from cognitive geography through philosophy of science through ontology of the social world--but it's all kinda technical and i'm not sure that the thread was set up with anything like that in mind.

but why do we assume there is a single entity called the universe? why do we assume there is a single entity called nature?
if words mediate our relation to our environments and if we are imbricated in those environments and so act on them in ways shaped fundamentally by the effects of this mediation, then how could language possibly not be a force in nature?
unless you think human creations somehow hover over nature, so that it is like a park you go visit---nature is where there's alot of trees or grass for example & stops where the parking lots begin.
but who thinks that way?

Skitto · 12-01-2009, 05:20 PM

But I'm talking practical uses of this sort of phenomena. I guess it's more like psychic projection through both the internal and external esthetic intensity of a word.

It also think that the site caught my incomplete phrasing of the new word psychometapragmatic.

Tesla · 12-02-2009, 10:38 AM

Yeah we want practical uses! Anyone said hypnosis?

Vigilante · 12-02-2009, 01:15 PM

I implied it.

Tesla · 12-03-2009, 01:43 AM

Anyways it would be shame for a topic like this to stay empty

Skitto · 12-03-2009, 05:42 PM

I implied hypnosis, I suppose. More like subconscious suggestion, or spellbinding.

---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ----------

But now I've lost faith in this thread, because I know that all it takes is a thorough belief and the determination to translate it outwards.

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ----------

This can also turn into a musical thread, you know.

10-17-2009, 05:07 PM	#1 (permalink)
Skitto Crazy Location: Westernmost Continental U.S.	Words as a force of nature? Talking from the root of psychological attachment to words that can happen in obsessive people. I wonder if words can be used in such a way that the power of their meaning can seriously influence people and events around the user. Example: Take the word "perfection" in the internal sentence, "I use the resources at hand to steer towards situational perfection" juxtaposed with "decision" in the same sentence, "using bold application of my decisions, I try to do the best I can with any given situation" These can both be powerful sentences depending on the degree to which they are believed. The person who formed the sentence, whether keeping it to themselves, writing it or speaking it, forms the meaning of the sentence overall through the use of a few key words. I only pointed out one word for each sentence as an example, but there are other words that could be the sticking points for the given psyche. A person can attach a lot more meaning to "the best I can" than to the simple "perfection". But you get what I mean? It's about an individual's spiritual literature. __________________ Yeah, well, you're just that awesome, I guess. It's not like I guessed so anyways.

10-25-2009, 12:37 PM	#2 (permalink)
Tesla Upright Location: In a galaxy far far away	If I understood you well, you were talking about using powerful words to influence one's mind? Well, slogans and famous quotes are all about that. Or you can explain that a little better if that's not what you were trying to say? __________________ That's the spirit!

11-22-2009, 09:33 AM	#3 (permalink)
tisonlyi Nothing	Semantics , Pragmatics and Semiology... well, pretty much all of Linguistics. __________________ "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

11-22-2009, 11:15 AM	#4 (permalink)
Tesla Upright Location: In a galaxy far far away	Duh..This thread has gone nowhere __________________ That's the spirit!

11-24-2009, 08:29 PM	#5 (permalink)
Skitto Crazy Location: Westernmost Continental U.S.	Indeed not! This topic should be of interest to lots more people than it has attracted. In the form of a question, does your word choice become more effective (or impactful) the more the idea means to you? If you build it up, will they come 'round? __________________ Yeah, well, you're just that awesome, I guess. It's not like I guessed so anyways.

11-27-2009, 01:14 AM	#6 (permalink)
Vigilante Broken Arrow Location: US	@OP You know, at first I thought you were talking about something like magic. I was thinking "really??" LOL Words can do anything from changing your mood to convincing you to do things you wouldn't otherwise do, and then have no memory of it. That being the case, sure they can have an affect. Although the way you put it sounds more like one of those cheesy business meetings where they try to raise morale or bring out that "can-do" attitude. __________________ We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

11-27-2009, 01:18 PM	#7 (permalink)
tisonlyi Nothing	Ok, this in me + Alcohol... But I'll stand by what I put up there... There are probably more than one or two folks who've studied linguistics here. Pragmatics is the study of language and context (including subjectivity and intra-subjectivity). The psychology of a producer or receiver of any given message is, by definition, part of the context of that message. Any message's meaning is heavily dependant upon that context. What you're talking about is an ENORMOUS field of research and knowledge. I think people who know about this will be put off of replying by the amount of avenues that it's possible to go down from your speculations above and people who don't know anything about it will be put off because it seems wild. I know you may think you've been specific, but I really think you might have hit a completely unsweet spot between two groups. I could, of course, just be drunk. ---------- Post added at 09:18 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:15 PM ---------- There's an issue of reflexivity that you raise as well, which is CONTROVERSIALLY covered by ethnolinguistics and linguististi relativity. you might like the papers on this lady's site: Lera Boroditsky __________________ "I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

11-30-2009, 08:23 PM	#8 (permalink)
Skitto Crazy Location: Westernmost Continental U.S.	I'm just gonna call this a metapsycho-pragmatic problem within xenology... ---------- Post added at 08:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:20 PM ---------- Oh, and after I asked the question of "how much meaning can you put into a word before it changes minds" brought up the topic of magic under the "meaning" card in my internal rolodex. __________________ Yeah, well, you're just that awesome, I guess. It's not like I guessed so anyways.

12-01-2009, 09:52 AM	#9 (permalink)
Tesla Upright Location: In a galaxy far far away	What xenology studies? Lol it even appears as a mistaken word ^^ __________________ That's the spirit!

12-01-2009, 11:26 AM	#10 (permalink)
Vigilante Broken Arrow Location: US	I'm pretty sure he meant that as a joke. __________________ We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

12-01-2009, 11:47 AM	#11 (permalink)
Tesla Upright Location: In a galaxy far far away	By mistaken word I meant that it was underlined with red dots like there was a grammar mistake, that's how uncommon it is. __________________ That's the spirit!

12-01-2009, 11:53 AM	#12 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there's alot that could be said about the basic idea behind the op, but i hesitate to lay things out as i see them because it'd derail the thread i suspect. i'm not really interested in abstract questions of rhetoric (degree of "belief" in what you're saying & questions of persuading others devolve onto classical matters of rhetoric: belief drops away, replaced by voice, which is what would communicate belief as the latter is an inward state which admits of no particular access for others. trick is that an adequately developed voice can be made that would convey a convincing illusion of belief...which is one reason plato for example was so pissy about the sophists...but that's another matter.) i'm more interested in the assumptions that link categories to their putative referents in the world, particularly more experience-distant ones (why is there a universe and not many? most likely because of the effects of the word universe, yes?) there's lots of directions this sort of thing can head toward, from cognitive geography through philosophy of science through ontology of the social world--but it's all kinda technical and i'm not sure that the thread was set up with anything like that in mind. but why do we assume there is a single entity called the universe? why do we assume there is a single entity called nature? if words mediate our relation to our environments and if we are imbricated in those environments and so act on them in ways shaped fundamentally by the effects of this mediation, then how could language possibly not be a force in nature? unless you think human creations somehow hover over nature, so that it is like a park you go visit---nature is where there's alot of trees or grass for example & stops where the parking lots begin. but who thinks that way? __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

12-01-2009, 05:20 PM	#13 (permalink)
Skitto Crazy Location: Westernmost Continental U.S.	But I'm talking practical uses of this sort of phenomena. I guess it's more like psychic projection through both the internal and external esthetic intensity of a word. It also think that the site caught my incomplete phrasing of the new word psychometapragmatic. __________________ Yeah, well, you're just that awesome, I guess. It's not like I guessed so anyways.

12-02-2009, 10:38 AM	#14 (permalink)
Tesla Upright Location: In a galaxy far far away	Yeah we want practical uses! Anyone said hypnosis? __________________ That's the spirit!

12-02-2009, 01:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
Vigilante Broken Arrow Location: US	I implied it. __________________ We contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up by the handle. -Winston Churchill

12-03-2009, 01:43 AM	#16 (permalink)
Tesla Upright Location: In a galaxy far far away	Anyways it would be shame for a topic like this to stay empty __________________ That's the spirit!

12-03-2009, 05:42 PM	#17 (permalink)
Skitto Crazy Location: Westernmost Continental U.S.	I implied hypnosis, I suppose. More like subconscious suggestion, or spellbinding. ---------- Post added at 05:41 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:38 PM ---------- But now I've lost faith in this thread, because I know that all it takes is a thorough belief and the determination to translate it outwards. ---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:41 PM ---------- This can also turn into a musical thread, you know. __________________ Yeah, well, you're just that awesome, I guess. It's not like I guessed so anyways.