Zeraph

So...if someone rapes and kills your daughter hating said person is ignorant bullshit? It would be better to be indifferent?

I'll keep my hate. *Pets Hate on the ass*

highdro69

Hate does not imply any ignorance. I hate religion and it's fanatics, but am more educated on the bible, Quran, Torah, Talmud, the Vedas, etc. than most fundamentalists. I hate pure capitalism, but am more familiar with the intricacies of a globalized market than most of the idiots investing in a market they don't understand. Obviously, I could list further examples, but the point is I'm not going to go kill religious people or blow up a stock exchange. Nothing catastrophic stemming from this hatred.
You further implication that hatred stems from ignorance is unnecessarily condescending and without any real reason as to why. I find it rather insulting.


My misanthropy has been cultivated only through my education. I am a student of history, and the one constant throughout human history has been it's cruelty towards itself. I'd really like to hope that the more mass information gets diffused and the world get smaller (mostly via the internet), that people will stop being so indifferent towards each other. However, I know this is a pipe dream.

Did that first caveman tie a sharpened rock to a stick to take down a giant mastadon, or did he do it because he wanted something his neighbor had, came up with a brand new way to kill him and steal it, and it just happened to be useful for hunting as well? If all the wars in recorded history are indicative or the wars of pre-history, I think that question becomes rhetorical.

__________________
"It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society."

thespian86

I'll try and answer this the best I can.

Let's change my idea from indifference to undecided. There is a big difference, I know. But that was more of where I was trying to go.

Perhaps I'm too young to understand where you're coming from. From where I stand I see only problems when your only purpose in a relationship with something is destroying it/dismantling it/etc. Because, correct me if I'm wrong (and I would appreciate your opinion), isn't that the purpose of hate? If it's not based in ignorance that means it has a purpose, hypothetically, so what is it's purpose if it isn't that?

Your religious fanatics base their practices in polar beliefs. Hate. Blind Faith. Is responding with more hate and resolve going to solve anything? Really? That isn't naive or hippy-talk; that's legitimate. Perhaps it's tedious. But wouldn't you rather they listen to your reasoning? Isn't that why you hate them? Because they won't listen to reason? What is the chance that you'll listen to them? About the same right? And you, like me, would claim we are being reasonable in not accepting their practices but the truth is that our opinions matter as much as theirs. But we don't know what's up there. What we say isn't any more true then them. I'm with you on this but I've just decided not to practice any type of faith-based religion right now but I don't know who I'll be when I'm 80. I might be speaking in tongues. That's just my point of view and I didn't mean to insult you. My apologies.

As a person who has experienced very little in his life I have very few instances that I can call upon to show you how I live my life but I have two:

1) I was mugged by a kid. Or attempted. He tried to assault me and take my things. He didn't care who I was or what I did. He was desperate. But I don't know him and I don't know what he's gone through in his life. It doesn't excuse his actions but it could explain it. The explanation could be that he's a drugged-up asshole or that he's living on the street to avoid abuse and has no other means of getting money. But my assumptions and hate towards street people, or kids who mug people, would not only be useless, and demeaning, and stressful (because hating something is stressful) but, far worse, it would be restrictive.

2) My best friend Jackie was kidnapped in front of me when I was six. The guy who took her out in the woods and viciously beat her and raped her (she was eight) for two weeks and then killed her and through her in the leaves. He was arrested and killed in prison. I don't hate him for what he did. He was really sick. I know people who are really sick. I pity him. But me hating him wouldn't do anything but stop me from understanding the situation.

Because hatred is what? The polar response of dislike right? My question is what's the point? What do you gain? What do you leave with? I'm obviously not an indifferent guy. I don't believe in passive-aggression to solve problems; I don't waffle. But what does a polar response to anything, be it overly joyful or overly hateful, help in any situation.

Because my answer to you Zeraph is I'd do whatever helped in the situation. Not helped me cope or scrape by. At some point, for me, that would have to stop. And I'm okay with never finding an answer. I'd be arrogant to say that I'll figure it all out. I'm not okay with stopping the exploration of a situation (I sound like Al Sharpton). What would help me understand.

And I think everyone is missing my stupid, small little point. Between the two: hatred of something, and being in the middle, I see a couple of differences but one stands out. The Middle means wiggle room. It means options. An option to change or grow. Hatred implies solidarity right? Something that's been decided. Because if it's not based in ignorance, then that means it's something figured out and decided. But isn't that decision ignorant in itself. You don't know EVERYTHING about religion and it's purposes so why jump the gun and decide in the realm of finality. What's so great about finality? The world is too big for me to finalize right now.

I just love to learn. About me. About you. About everything.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Zeraph

Hate is just as useful as any other emotion if not more so. It is an adequate creator of motivation. And speak for yourself, I don't go all blood rage crazy just because I may hate something. Nor does it mean I can't or won't understand it. Nor does it mean it's a "final" decision. Nothing ever really is, but there's nothing wrong with living in the moment.

Martian

Appeal to emotion. Irrelevant.

Or if you prefer, I'll share my initial reaction:

I tend to view self-identified misanthropes with a sort of amused condescension. I suppose this makes me a mismisanthrope.

Antimisanthrope is probably more correct, but infinitely less fun.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Zeraph

Martian- Thanks for adding to the thread with your deep insights and well thought out response.

This post is also available in sarcovision for those that are sarcasm impaired.

Martian

Right-o, thought out response coming up.

It's my opinion, based on only my personal experience, that those who claim misanthropy tend to view the world through a pair of flaw binoculars, if you will -- they have a habit of grossly magnifying the flaws and/or mistakes of others until said flaws represent the entire person, yet when turned on the holder all flaws are reduced to near non-existence, if you follow. It's a peculiar mix of narcissism combined with a complete lack of self-awareness (although some might argue these two things are one and the same).

If you don't see how ludicrous this is:

I frankly don't know that we have anything to discuss.

Regardless, I find it interesting and insightful that so many here seem to equate acceptance with complacency. One does not imply the other.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

thespian86

(see: Tilted Life - Single... thread) Islands in the stream. That is what we are.

I don't care if they can see me! I love Martian. Deal with it Cate Blanchete.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

FelixP

I am a misanthrope. However, I recognize myself as a human, and as such must see myself as the flawed jackass I am, and I have contributed to the goatfuck we call human history as much as Hitler, my mailman, or the old lady down the street. You can't assume all misanthropes are narcisists. I recognize my own flaws as quickly and readily as I do others', if not with greater expediency and discretion. I constantly hear people say things like "Everyone has good inside them." or "He's a good person, really, he raped and beat that woman because he grew up on the wrong side of the tracks." etc.; bullshit. People are like gay clubs: dicks wrapped in assholes. It's just most people can't handle the reality of the situation, so they stick their heads up their own asses and live in a world of blind naivete. Well, I'm tired so I'm gonna hit the hay. I'll check this thread tomorrow.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

Martian

So to paraphrase and summarize:

"Hey, I'm just as much of a stupid fucked up asshole as the next guy. The only difference is that I'm the only one smart/perceptive/cool enough to realize what stupid fucked up assholes we all are."

Sound about right?

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Iliftrocks

It bothers them because it proves that their superiority is an inane dream. In their hubris, the self righteous misanthrope just cannot admit that superior intellect just isn't a requirement to get along in life, or to be happy. More often than not greater intellect just leads to greater misery for self and others. Misanthropes simply hate themselves because they are miserable and want to blame anybody but themselves for their misery. This self hatred just gets turned outward.

Been there, done that, bought the t-shirt. Get over yourselves. Oh, and waaaaaaaahhhh!!!!!

Hate is a useless emotion

---------- Post added at 12:30 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:19 PM ----------

None of us is as dumb as all of us, right? Who said that?

__________________
bill hicks - "I don't mean to sound bitter, cold, or cruel, but I am, so that's how it comes out."

Zeraph

It's been your *experience* with misanthropes? Please tell me how many you've had direct experience with that it has enabled you to label the rest of us.

The naivete train has arrived guys. Let's try to ignore their supercilious insults and continue our discussion.

thespian86

hahahaha it seems the irony train has arrived as well.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Shell

Did you all see Jack Nicholson in the movie "As Good as it Gets" as the endearing obsessive-compulsive misanthrope, Melvin? "Loveable misanthrope" is like an oxymoron but ya' just had to luv 'em...here is one of Melvin's quotes from the movie. He's speaking to his gay neighbor, played by Greg Kineer, who has just knocked on his door looking for his little yippy pooch (which Melvin had thrown down the laundry shoot):

Just click again on the screen if you get an error message on the screen:

__________________
..."Say what you think. Those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind" ~ Dr. Seuss

Plan9

I think a few posters are getting a misanthrope and a solipsist confused here.

...

Also:

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Zeraph

Thank you!

To others: I've spent years reading and going over my philosophical pondering of misanthropy to come to my conclusion. Something tells me you haven't. How about we start judging a little less?

Something I find amusing is that statistically, 1 in 10 people are far superior in whatever category you want to pick. Wisdom, intellectualism, education, etc. You can't tell me you don't notice a difference between those top 10%ers and everyone else.

And there's like 500 posters on the TFP? Which would make like 50 people that are far superior. What makes you so sure none of us are even in that top 10%? I'm usually smart enough (hehe) not to bother mentioning such because people feel so insecure about themselves and lash out, but this was a thread that was supposed to be between misanthropes until you guys derailed into into (essentially) name calling.

FelixP

No, if that were the case, I would be the only misanthrope...besides, for the most part it's not a question of intelligence or perceptiveness. Alot of people enjoy living in their own little fantasy worlds. I never claimed to be cool,or unusually perceptive, or unnaturally intelligent. You shouldn't react to my post with in such a rash manner; that only encourages my misanthropic outlook.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

Zeraph

Sorry this was a bit ago, but I kept forgetting to post a response to it.

Irrelevant?!

Ummmm

Umm..

Umm...

You realize this thread is about emotion? How can one *not* bring emotion into it? This is about hate and what happens in the real world to cause it. Little girls do get raped and killed and to be indifferent to it is an affront to good people everywhere.

---------- Post added at 05:33 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:31 PM ----------

Haha, indeed. This thread has epic irony.

thespian86

My post was the original dissent (see: sin) in this thread I believe.

My beliefs are as mulled over as the next person. My philosophy is as questioned and reworked as well. But because what I believe opposes your life philosophy in some way doesn't mean I was taking shots at you. My definition of hate and it's use in my life was clearly stated. I calmly answered your questions and asked more in return (because this is a forum for debate and conversation). I referred to the use of hate as "useless" and "ignorant" but within my life philosophy it is and I explained why I saw it that way clearly. I didn't demand you change your mind. I didn't even suggest that I was right or wrong (in fact, I pointed out that my life experience is lacking).

I got no real answers to my questions. I was legitimately asking for answers.

In response to my posts I got things like "Oh, so if your daughter was raped you'd be indifferent?" or "The naivety train has arrived; all aboard" or "I've spent years thinking about this; something tells me you haven't" or etc.

And yet I'm not really offended or hurt; I don't really care. It's just a conversation. It's about learning, not about One Uping at tfp. I want a discussion; but one that does not end in irreversible resolve and an attempt to squash or belittle my words or actions by labeling them as childish or naive.

Thanks (and that isn't a loaded thank you, or a sarcastic thank you, but a genuine one because I have to assume that people here are adult enough to be thankful for opposing views)

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Zeraph

Eh I don't have much of a beef with you punk, I was mostly talking about martian (and I think 1 other I don't feel like looking up) as he came in with one liners and started using vulgarity. Though you seemed to support him. And the words you used I believe were "ignorant bullshit" to hate anything. And ya, that is attacking my perspective. Maybe you didn't mean for it to come off like that but that's how it did.

And I must say I still have no idea what your perspective really is...to me being indifferent is being stagnant and passive to "evil." I certainly appreciate you actually taking the time to share your ideas and put your thoughts down though.

thespian86

Re-read my posts and I'll do the same for you; I think you might be missing what I'm saying.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Martian

Hmm.

I pondered at length how best to address the amount of vitriol I seem to have solicited here. I have decided to take this on a per-user basis.

Zeraph, you first.

Starting at the beginning:

Yes. Unsurprisingly, my opinions are shaped by my experiences. Thus, my expressed opinion regarding misanthropy and those who who identify with it would be based upon my own experience and anything outside my admittedly rather limited experience does not factor into it. This should go without saying, but I felt the need to emphasize it anyway, lest anyone misunderstand and believe that I am making statements regarding absolutes.

Isn't judging others what misanthropy is all about? You've judged the rest of humanity and found them wanting. Asking people to be less judgmental in a thread regarding misanthropy strikes me as highly amusing.

I'm glad that you've thought out your viewpoint. It's a bit short-sighted, to say the least, to assume that others haven't. Part of my personal experience with misanthropy comes from my own prior experiences as a self-identified misanthrope. Later experience, however, demanded that I reassess my view and opinions about the world. This was brought on largely by an increase in self-awareness, when I finally started to figure out who I really am. This is not the full extent of my experience in the matter, but forms a large part of it.

Unless I'm misunderstanding you here, your argument centers around the self-evident fact that one in ten individuals fall within the ninetieth percentile on any given measure of aptitude. The flaw in your logic as I see it is that you assume that the same ten percent are going to be at the top of every category.

If we assume that you're correct, it still doesn't make sense. I make no secret of the fact that I fall within the ninety-eighth percentile for intelligence, yet you continue to refer to me (obliquely, at least) as naive. Wouldn't my supposed lack of wisdom combined with my readily apparent intellect destroy your theory? And if not, do you hate me for being unwise or like me for being smart?

Emotion is fine for opinions, but has no place in debate. Had you said 'I hate the world because people rape little girls,' then I would agree that this is your opinion and you have a right to it. But when you use this as an attempt to persuade others, you enter into the realm of the debate and the rules of logic apply. As there's no logical basis for misanthropy, things quickly fall apart here.

Again we find acceptance equated with indifference.

I'm sorry, I must've missed the sign; I wasn't aware that this discussion was reserved only for people who consider themselves to be misanthropes. Regardless, it strikes me that a philosophy that can't stand up to a bit of criticism must not be very strong to begin with.

FelixP:

I think you've misunderstood me. My point was to illustrate that what you were saying seemed to be just another form of intellectual elitism, making your statement incompatible with your claim that you aren't better than the teeming masses. It wasn't meant to be applied specifically to you, or even to be taken literally at all. I apologize if that was unclear.

Regardless, you're free to have whatever outlook you wish, but I'll not be blamed for it. Assuming for the sake of argument that I was particularly bothered by the opinion of someone on the internet, it's still not up to me to make up your mind for you. I'm going to say what I have to say. It's up to you to interpret and internalize that in whatever way you see fit.

EDIT for the cross-post.

Certainly I came in with a quip. Such is my modus operandi. I had to double-check on the vulgarity thing, since that's not usually my style; I suppose you're correct insofar as I did write the word 'fuck' in my initial post, although it wasn't actually directed at anyone and more intended as an illustration of surprise at what I'd read.

I have done nothing more sinister here than express an opposing viewpoint. I'm sorry that it seems to upset you so, but I refer you to the above. If your philosophy is unable to withstand dissension, perhaps you should consider a re-examination.

Why do you continually assume that anyone who doesn't have your sheer volume of bile is passive and indifferent? I don't understand where this comes from. It is possible to accept that there are bad things in the world without hating everyone. I recognize that I don't have the power to change such things and that my energy is better spent elsewhere. That doesn't mean that I'm okay with the terrible things people do to each other, but it does mean I'm also capable of recognizing that there are a lot of good things in the world as well, and would rather focus my time and energy on that.

There's nothing passive about it. Some of the individuals who had the greatest impact on the world we live in taught a philosophy of acceptance. See also: Rev Dr. Martin Luther King, Gandhi.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Zeraph

Eww TLDR maybe later, especially since most of it was taking my points out of context and ripping on them. But from what I've read that's much better. All I wanted was your contribution, not your animosity.

1in10 can be looked at for sole category, or multi category. Both somewhat arbitrary. My only point there is that superior people do exist...in any category or multi category you want.

And ya, part of me likes you for your intellect, but my misanthropic part despises that unwise part of you. And misanthropy is about judging *all* not just *others*.

Most of my points are being taken out of context and being mashed together. What I'm trying to say overall is that there are superior people, that hatred has its uses, that being misanthropic does not automatically make one narcissistic or even arrogant and something else but I'm tired.

The biggest perception problem I think is that people seem to be equating the angsty teen syndrome that we all grow out of with the well thought out misanthropic adult. I don't think we have any angsty teens here.

FelixP

To Martian: My final comment about you encouraging wasn't about blame (I accept my philosophical beliefs as being of my own choosing, not a decision forced upon me by others), it was meant to be ironic, and yet illustrate that while I dislike most aspects of humanity, our emotions are most irritating (more irony. yay.)

I'm not sure how I come accross as an elitist (or did I just prove your point?). Have you read any of Schopenhauer's stuff? I share some of his views, the most pertinent to this discussion being antinatalism. As an objective observer I disdain my specie and would like to see it gradually go extinct, but as a human being with emotions, I personally see suicide as a coward's way out, and as an unnatural end (this sorta keeps in line with my wish that humans die out gradually, not in a nuclear holocaust or biblical rapture). I know it can be hard to find one post in a topic with many, so feel free to PM me.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

Xerxys

Dude, I'm an angry teen... and I'm only 21

I'm a misanthrope, I believe that 'other' people are to blame for many things that go wrong simply because they refuse to see beyond their point of view.

I believe people are assholes until I meet them and hence determine they're not.

I mean, in my experience (This might generate some sence of plausibility of sorts ) interacting with someone who at first comes off as an ass ... is an ass. The idea that, "you have to get to know him first, he really is a good guy inside" is fuckin' stupid.

thespian86

Fuck! There! That's all I wanted. Not "I am this; take it!" Just a reason and a description. Thanks buddy.

(keep in mind that "you" is the "general you"; a message to all misanthropes)

It's an interesting approach. Here is where I differ and it is quite a difference. I approach life and all matter as if it doesn't exist until I've distinguished it's existence.

For instance: if I were in a square room with a door but I had no concept of a door I wouldn't see it. It would simply be part of the wall. Our mind creates natural patterns and general rules that apply to all similar objects; door equates opening to a separate space. Without ever seeing or hearing of or touching or thinking about a door, a door simply does not exist.

Where we differ, I think, is our view of humanities unpredictable and often confusing nature. You view it as a problem; that until someone can prove their worth they are viewed as an asshole - some unpredictable, unreliable, stupid as fuck asshole. I see them as individuals: all individually non-existent. And my purpose is to diligently observe and learn about them so they take shape. A person is simply a wall, to use my former analogy, until I figure out their purpose (do you know what I mean?).

And that purpose is subject to change; it has no limitations or restrictions. VERY basically, that is "living presently".

Here is why I'd rather live with my philosophy than yours. I can control my actions, thoughts, and emotions; like you and every other capable, intelligent, emotionally sound human being. There are no outside variables because my science creates an equation in which everything is applicable defeating the purpose of definition or specificity. To be clearer: I'm not looking for anything specific (ie: where you are waiting for them to prove their worth) so all I need to do is watch and learn and, for lack of a better word, mingle; take part.

Misanthropy, if I understand it from your definition, depends completely on everyone else. You've removed yourself from the equation all together. You are, ironically, putting the power in the hands of the people who, in your opinion, don't deserve it. Your happiness completely depends upon the people who are stupid as fuck. That's kind of shitty for you. Not shitty OF you (just being clear so I'm not flamed).

Perhaps the most troubling thing about it is (and this is where I kept citing ignorance, and I'm sorry if that offended) that your predetermination of humanity leaves you with a prejudice. You have all ready prejudged EVERY living being as something not worthy of said life which means you are less likely to be willing to understand it (am I right?). Like Mart said, it's like wearing "Flaw Goggles". If you are unwilling to understand it, while also waiting for it to prove it's worth (or, rather, give you a reason to understand it), understanding becomes borderline impossible; you create a cyclical behavior in which you refuse to understand something until it proves itself, which in turn leaves it impossible for them to prove themselves. Ignoring possibility and being closed off to information is, to me, the definition of ignorance and that's what this comes off as.

Again, I am not saying YOU are indeed ignorant. But if this isn't ignorance, then it's close. And that is shitty OF you. It's incredibly presumptuous and leaves it impossible for others, and yourself, to succeed or execute their/your life to their fullest potential. Labeling restricts. What's worse is the label is made up; something they haven't even earned. I could understand if - to bring up the raped little girl situation - you wanted to hate a guy for raping a little girl. But to meet a guy with the assumption that he is more likely to do that then be a great guy is kind of sick and it kind of insults me.

I'm not inciting another fight; just sharing my opinion.

Oh, and ZERAPH. Just bolded to see if you'd read it all. Because you should. It might make me seem like less of an asshole.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Martian

Zeraph: I'm confused. You complained that I wasn't contributing sufficiently, but when I compose a lengthy rebuttal to what I see as the flaws in your thinking, you then complain that it's too long.

I'm curious how you'd know I was taking you out of context if you didn't read what I wrote.

FelixP: I'm familiar with Schopenhauer's work and, in short, consider it to be a load of crap. Schopenhauer's views are not compatible with mine, and I find a lot of what he wrote to be quite frankly abhorrent. I suppose one could argue that he was more in line with the thinking prevalent during the early to mid nineteenth century, but that just makes him obsolete at best.

If you want a definition of my own views.. well, it's hard for me to do because I'm not big on labels. I do take a lot from Camus' existentialism though. If you haven't delved into that area yet, I strongly recommend Sartre and Camus for further reading. Coming from Schopenhauer, you'll see a lot of connections in the underlying principles, although the conclusions are quite different.

As for my point regarding elitism, it's simply that you seem to claim some form of uncommon knowledge. You may not consciously distinguish yourself from the rest of humanity, but you do seem to believe that your insight is unique, insofar as you've made implications to the effect that anyone who shared it would necessarily share your viewpoint. This is a very narrow perspective, to say the least.

For clarity, this:

is where I get the idea that you believe your particular insight to be uncommon, and this:

is where I find the implication that said insight is tied fundamentally to your philosophy, and that therefore anyone who doesn't share your view must not have observed the same phenomenon you have to arrive at your conclusions. The conclusion I'm reaching here is that you believe the teeming masses are either unwilling or unable to face the reality you've defined/discovered, but you're made of sterner stuff.

I may be misinterpreting; text is a singularly poor medium for these sorts of discussions.


Assuming I'm correct, do you now see where I'm finding a sort of elitism here? Your way of thinking doesn't seem to allow for an individual who might start with the same data and arrive at a different conclusion. It seems to me as though you're suggesting that either people see it your way, or the wrong way (heads up their asses). And therefore it follows my prior observations about misanthropy being a form of narrow-minded elitism more than anything.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Wrexify

This is absolutely the cause of my misconceptions of misanthropy. Many of those I know who define themselves as misanthropes turn out to be nothing more than angsty teens in disguise.

The explanations given by Xerxys and punkmusic aka thespian are 100x more logical and insightful than any I've heard from "misanthropes" IRL. Though I must admit, thespian, your response started to get a little too abstract for my tired brain.

Unfortunately, angsty teen posers tend to discredit the whole philosophy.

__________________
"Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

Zeraph

Because Martian I don't consider ripping my posts out of context contributing. And don't be difficult, TLDR is a saying not meant literally. I scanned most of it. And it's out of context because I was in the middle of a conversation with someone else during the time I wrote the majority of that stuff and specifically replying to their specific points. Not writing out my philosophical doctrine.

Gotta love how you leave out the next sentence after my quote about experience. I can't tell if you're purposefully being difficult or if you really don't see the problem in that kind of arguing.

Not to mention you keep putting words in my mouth. "your sheer volume of bile..." I've repeated again and again that this was a philosophical decision and I rarely actually think and feel the hate on a day to day basis.

Seriously, have you even read the thread? Or did you just butt in here in the middle of a conversation between a group of people and pick random out of context points to rip on?

And dude, just because I'm not going to waste my time participating in your little quote out of context and rip to the logical bone doesn't mean our philosophy doesn't stand up to a little criticism. This was a casual discussion between between polite adults until you came in here.

I really can't tell if your just being difficult or honestly just biased and not realizing it, but I'm done playing this game that has nothing to do with the original thread. PM me if you really feel you must continue. Spare the rest your diatribe.

EDIT: Martian that was mostly in reply to your post before last. Your last post is a lot better. So take this how you will.

thespian86 I'm just going to role my eyes at you. I'm sick of defending my beliefs. I didn't come to this thread for that. I think I'm done here.

If you guys can't see how your posts are coming off as attacks yall need to take a break from message boards.

FelixP

Yeah Martian I agree, text is a horrible medium with which to communicate ideas and beliefs this complex with any sort of clarity.
You were saying that I must be the only one cool/smart/perceptive enough to see things as the way they are. I was replying that if that was the case, I would be the only misanthrope. There are misanthropes much more intelligent than myself, just as there are misanthropes much less intelligent than myself. The same goes for people who are not misanthropes. I guess in my own personal experience, and what I've read in history books (I love history), people are assholes. We try to convince each other we're not, because most people are emotionally soft and would rather go through life happy than aware. So yes, I suppose I am claiming some sort of superiority here, but it's not genetic or inherent. It was something that was developed, often against my will, over years of existence on planet Earth.

Here's an analogy: I can do 70 pushups without resting. I have a friend that can do sixty. Therefore, I am superior in the realm of pushups. But a year ago I could barely do 35 pushups without stopping, while he could have done about 50; therefore he used to be superior in the realm of pushups. But I practiced, worked out, etc., and now I am superior. If he worked out frequently, he would probably be superior in so far as how many pushups he could do. Not everyone is the same, some people are better at certain things than others; most things NEED TO BE WORKED ON before someone can become good at it.

I am convinced my position is right; if I wasn't, I wouldn't be a misanthrope.

Writing about this is almost pointless; it's pretty difficult to effectively communicate my point.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

thespian86

This is the most frustrating conversation I've ever had on TFP and it isn't because you disagree. I don't expect you to agree. I expect that we are discussing. I've written several upon several clear and concise responses that were articulate and diplomatic. I deserve much better then the response you just gave me.

If you want to "leave the discussion" that's cool, but all it does is make you come off as a sophist; someone who feels the need to defend without actually discussing and when forced into a corner they retreat with an excuse. Socrates loved your kind. If I'm wrong, prove it to me. Don't just say "you're wrong" or "you're ridiculous" or "you're a dick".

You keep going on like we are attacking and insulting but we are trying to figure out why you think and feel this way and why we don't agree with it. It isn't my problem that you can't act like an adult.

I'd be very happy to discuss this with you but you'd have to stop with things like answering my huge post with "I'm just going to roll my eyes at you". Yeah dude, I was wrong; totally not ignorant.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Plan9

Okay, this thread needs to listen to less My Chemical Romance and get a haircut.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Zeraph

sigh, I can't believe I have to actually show you your own writing. Just because you preface something with polite nonsense doesn't mean you can say whatever you want afterward. We were never in a discussion you and me. There is nothing between us. Just because you write down your arguments, doesn't meaning I'm participating in a discussion with you. All my recent posts have been mostly defending myself because I feel like I'm being personally attacked. Oh what gave me that idea?

I don't care if you put a little polite point after it.

Oh wait, it's only "close"? I guess I'm not insulted then.


And you're right, you don't deserve my attention.

thespian86

I appologize for the Zeraph comment; it was an attempt at being cute, not to slight you. And you are taking that sentence completely out of context. I have a logical and well thoughtout post that is attached to that. For you to throw away the rest to point out that I'm an asshole is petty dude.

I'm not trying to fight you or attack you. I keep saying this. It's not about you. It's about the discussion. I'm trying to talk about Misanthropy. About what I see it as. You obviously don't agree with me or my philosophy but it's not insulting to me; it's life.

There is no "polite non-sense"; I'm polite in general and feel like I'm stepping on toes so I'm asserting that I'm not attacking and that I think the world of everyone's views here. But my blunt honesty shouldn't be mistaken or twisted into an attack. I can't help if you feel I'm attacking you but I'm not.

---------- Post added at 03:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:38 PM ----------

unneccesary. I'm just trying to fucking learn about this lifestyle. Jesus.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Zeraph

I understand how it could be frustrating to try and join in a discussion and become repeatedly misunderstood. Apology accepted.

So go ahead and ask me what you want to know then plain and clear. I would suggest concise questions so as not to be misconstrued.

PS I would be open to an apology from Martian as well.

Martian

That's nice. I've done nothing more than share my opinion here, and therefore have nothing to apologize for.

Also, quoting relevant text is not the same as taking it out of context. One does not always lead to the other.

FelixP: The problem I see with the way you're explaining it is that it still discounts the possibility of other outcomes. You've created a sliding scale, where more misanthropic (like more push-ups) is better. This isn't necessarily the case.

I'm fully aware that there are a lot of assholes in the world. Depending on who you ask, I'm one of them. But despite knowing that, and despite being well versed in a number of the atrocities that humanity has committed upon itself, I still choose to see the good. To be perfectly honest, there is nothing and no one in this world that I hate, and knowing the horrors that people are capable of doesn't change that.

And this is where I'm going here. Perhaps it wasn't entirely accurate to claim narcissism as a root cause, although I have known several narcissistic misanthropes (myself included). But there's still an undercurrent of elitism there. And honestly, that's fine. I may not agree with you, but if you want to tell yourself and anyone else who will listen how much better you are for only being able to see the negative aspects of history, it's not my place to tell you different. What I really don't understand, though, is the denial.

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

thespian86

that's an interesting point actually; the idea that enlightenment equates an understanding that everything is flawed. But I found, as I got older and more honest and open with myself and the world around me, that the negatives I saw were simply misunderstandings or assumptions.

Also, could a misanthrope please read and respond to my post. I'm quite sincerely interested.

ps. Zeraph: I wasn't apologizing for my opinion, my beliefs, my words, or my actions aside from the apparent hurt that was caused with my (in good humor) comment using your screen name. Everything else stands. Just to be clear.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Zeraph

Fine then neither of you are invited on my river ship this Sunday in Egypt.

Everyone else: All the gold doublooms you can carry!

PS you guys can bandy words all you want, but I can easily read through it and I'm highly amused at how 'in denial' you are about it.

Xerxys

No man, it doesn't work like that, it NEVER EVER works like that. What about buying a car, you have to be weary of the car salesman and make sure he isn't swindling you. Given this example you have automatically assumed he is out to get you.

With the room example. No, you will see the door. Your brain wil distinguish patterns and curiousity will ensue.

When it comes to misanthropes, (and I'm happy you used the word boderline) these senses of skeptisism are heightened. But we do not completely close off the off chance that someone may actually have good intentions rather than bad. We just believe in fool me once, shame on me, fool me twice, WTF was I thinking!!!

thespian86

I have to disagree on both counts. With the salesman example, it is a choice, subconcious or concious, to not trust the salesman. Now, it would be stupid and naive to say that "car salesmen" aren't, generally, out to take you for your money; it's part of the business. But to assume that is certainly restricting your view of who and what he is; making him simply an obstacle to overcome. I can't telly ou how many people who are deemed oppposition by society that I've interacted with to my satisfaction or advantage simply because I allowed myself to get a VERY basic understanding of who they are, and interacting with that part of them. If that person shows no sign of human life (ie: he shows no part of HIMSELF through his work. which seems very unlikely) then the excercise is irrelevant anyways.

On the patern, curiousity front, you are designing an argument that works on the most basic of levels. Of course our mind recognizes difference, but to say by looking at something we discover it's purpose without having prior knowledge of something similar, is impossible. I can be curious, and will be, but without distingiushing what it is I simply see it as an excentric part of a wall. An example I'll use is sorta silly but effective. An african herdsman is known for his intuitive connection with his cows; for example he can tell their physical state by their color. A man or woman unaware of this would say "that's a dark brown cow" but the herdsman would look at each cow and say "she is dehydrated, he is ill, he is healthy, she is recently pregnant". The unknowledgable person wouldn't be able to see this or even percieve it. Their mind can't understand it because what they see is "brown".

Another way of saying this is a disservice to the concept but perhaps a more widely recognizable thought that "does something exist if I've never heard of it? does a tree make a sound if no one is around to hear it fall?" Everything is assumption, and it works for the most part because society and knowledge don't require physical evidence on a conversational or educational level (see: history, or, well, every subject on earth). Someone can tell you something and you assume it's valid and true. Like "Stella is a great gal". But the idea is that Stella's existence is, until you distingiush her existence, verbal. She exists as a part of language until you can put a physical form of independant and unique mass to said "idea". My philosophy recognizes the danger in assumption, generalization, and social isms that leave room for existence to unfold.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.