twilightfoix

Ok, so yeah, it's been awhile since i've posted anything and I have a message that tells to talk to someone. So I want to start a conversation about misanthropy. Before I go any further I wish for it to be known I'm mainly posing my discussion towards other misanthropes like my self.

Ok so here goes...
How does someone come to hate their own? Is it nature or nurture? Obviously there're strong arguments for nurture, abused as a child, traumatic experience(s), or just upbringing by a spiteful parent with a skewed ideology, and etc.
Nature as with all great nature v. Nurture debates as an overwhelming lack of evidence to support it's argument. How can you say you were born with a different ideology than someone else? I know I can't make such a bold claim, but if pressed for an answer for my own situation I would have to say I was born slightly cynical. I have no evidence to prove it but my hatred doesn't stem from a past event. But then again my hatred is based on a view of the actions of a largely capitalist world. Would I still hate in an utopian setting? I know there are still good people out there, many better than I, so I try to keep an open mind when meeting new people.

So I'll end it here in fear I've already thrown too much out to talk about objectively. What are your views?

Willravel

Misanthropy isn't always a negative. Sometimes it's a rational response to humanity's darker side. Still, you can't be pessimistic all the time.

KirStang

If you think about it, at our primal core, humanity is selfish. When things come down to zero sum, i.e. limited food, shelter, mates, etc. humanity reverts back to it's primal core and all that jibber jabber about being 'enlightened' goes to shit. In my experience, the people who preach enlightenment the most are the quickest to shaft someone.

Shrug. I've seen many 'friends' do shady things when the stakes were high enough. I guess that's where true character comes in.

I guess my feelings of misanthropy are flow from my observation of hypocrites.

Back in 2004, I was one of the most liberal people you knew. Then I got shafted enough times by friends to realize that people, in a word, suck. Be careful to not let your guard down too easily.

Lindy

As my grandma says "There ya go again, havin' another bad day on purpose."

Lindy

Slims

I like Heinleins take on this issue:

"Pessimists are more often right, but Optimists have a lot more fun"

Perhaps slightly misquoted, but the meaning is still there.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Zeraph

I'll tell you why I'm a misanthrope, and why you probably are too. But yall aren't going to like it.

I'm a misanthrope because I'm better than most people. I have self-control so the fat guy squishing me into the side of the plane makes me mad at him. I have intelligence, so the commercial double talk is insulting so I hate them. I'm a better driver, so I hate the idiots that can't bother to understand traffic etiquette that make it dangerous to drive...etc. I think you get the gist of it. I'm basically punished because of 99% of the human race are dolts. Of course I'm going to be peeved. Yall slow down my growth and enjoyment of life.

These aren't the best examples and I could sugar coat it but I'm getting bleary eyed and need to get to sleep. So I'll leave it as is and see what the reaction will be.

Fotzlid

After the shit I put up with the past couple of days, I'm tending to agree with you.

twilightfoix

You are right on many levels, most of my hatred of a large populace of people comes from a sense of superiority, but that only explains so much. There very intelligent people that profit off the dumb, the weak, the fat, the poor, etc. Example; Lou Pearlman, used his brains to get over on a lot of people, but he disgust me. I doubt I could stop myself from choking the life out of him if I met him.

Here, let me throw in some objective real world knowledge though. Most of my friends are misanthropes, and they post here. I had the opportunity to room with one for two years in a two bedroom apartment, damn near best of friends. Before it was over we were at each others throats hating each other, even though we spent a lot of time proving our intellect through deep discussions and still we both couldn't wait to get out. Now obviously there wasn't the thought that he was inferior, but in the end I came to the conclusion that misanthropes can't live together, and my hatred doesn't 100% stem from a sense of superiority.

Wrexify

There are thousands of reasons to hate humanity, but it's all a question of how much you let it affect you. Even if you feel like you're better than most people you meet, I'd just step back and ask yourself if they really have any impact on your life.

I try not to let the actions of others decide my happiness. I wouldn't consider myself a misanthrope, but I have no problem just doing my own thing. If the actions and opinions of others affect you to the point of getting less enjoyment out of life, try to come up with real, logical reasons that you should care. I'd say 99% of the time, it's not even worth thinking about.

This is all assuming, of course, that you accept that lots of people are just assholes and there's probably no hope of changing that.

__________________
"Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

Zeraph

Wrexify, those first two paragraphs are wishy washy BS that school teachers pour down the ears of little kids. If a jerk comes up to you and shoots you in the face, you should what, ignore death?

An extreme example, but it drives the point home. I'm not talking about little, intangible things, I'm talking about real world obstacles because people are dolts.

YamiYasha

Lake Wobegon effect - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I also think it's a balance of nature and nurture. Nature makes the experience (nurture) more susceptible to misanthropy. Being a misanthrope myself, I think myself to be a subject of my environment, also an effect of the Lake Wobegon bias. The thing is, if you are effected by nurture, you are concious of it, so most attrinute this to nurture.

Wrexify

Ok, fair enough. If you're talking about REAL idiots who are ACTUALLY getting in the way of your happiness for legitimate reasons, then I have no argument. If we're talking about humans in general, I see no reason why you can't just disregard the stupidity of total strangers.

__________________
"Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

twilightfoix

[Edit] sorry after posting I reread what you wrote and see what you're getting at. True- "ignorance is bliss," but I'd like to add "but also incomplete." [/edit]

Well i'm speaking for myself, but i'm sure many will agree, it's not the stupidity of everyday people we meet that draws hatred. Sure they can have that effect. But to look at humanity as a whole and watch it barrel through life like a toddler with a bucket on it's head repeatedly bumping into the same wall over and over and over again. And then after awhile that toddler takes the bucket off and plows right back into the same wall and calls it progress.

Let me stop there and ask a question to self described misanthropes; Why read and post on a forum? It can only lead to more human interaction

Wrexify

This kind of stuff is really interesting to me... I have a few "friends" who are big misanthropes and I never really understood their thought processes.

Do you find that it's hard to explain why you feel the way that you do? The misanthropes I know can give me hundreds of examples of human idiocy that get them angry, but never explain why it bothers them so much. Vice versa, they don't really understand why/how I choose to ignore it and I guess I don't really have an explanation for them either.

Maybe I'm reading into it too much and no one really has any concrete answers.

__________________
"Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

ratbastid

I never heard this quote before, but it interests me.

I'd say pessimists are ALWAYS right, because "right" is subjective.

Which means that optimists are also ALWAYS right. AND they have more fun.

Zeraph

Who says I let it bother me a ton? Most feelings of hatred against humanity are fleeting and I know theyre rather futile so I put it behind me and enjoy my life. There's no clause in the misanthrope handbook that says we all have to be hatebots 24/7. Misanthropy is really a philosophical outlook, not a disease like depression. I decided a long time ago to carve out some happiness in all this darkness.

As far as specific reasons I can give you countless ones how dolts effect me everyday. For instance anyone who works and pays taxes are all effected by doltism. You pay at least triple your taxes for safety regulations, bailouts, extra police, firemen, military, etc. None of those things would be needed (or needed much much less, natural fires will happen, etc) if we didn't have so many dolts. Traffic is slower because people don't know how to drive, so whenever you get in a car to travel somewhere dolts are stealing part of your life. How does that not make you at least dislike them?

Wrexify

That's what I'm getting at, now I think we're on the same page. I have thoughts like the ones you describe all the time... everyone must at some point or another. The people I don't understand are those that are constantly harboring this anger to the point of isolating themselves completely.

I think it all depends on your surroundings. I never had any feelings of hatred or hopelessness for humanity until I came to my current school and started getting random group projects... and I sincerely hope that I never encounter anyone like the people I've met here after I leave.

__________________
"Nitwit! Oddment! Blubber! Tweak!"

northstar

It's choice. You chose to be this way. You can choose not to be this way if you want, though it does provide intellectual benefit to be distinctly critical of others. Personally, I subscribe humor to replace my being critical so people don't realize the harshness of what they perceive to be jokes.

florida0214

Wow way over my head here. Does everybody on here have PhD's or are people just applying logic and filling in the blanks with excerpts from newspaper articles. I am saying this to establish some kind of credibility. Life experience is a great way to add credibility and there is no way to prove it, but trust is a way to go.

I know this comes as me being the asshole and if a lot of this is just opinion then so be it. That is what TFP is all about, but please claim your words as your opinion and nothing more, if that is all it is. Please do not try to pass off your opinion as fact or logic. One mans logic is another mans chaos.

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"Two men: one thinks he can. One thinks he cannot. They are Both Right."

twilightfoix

For me, your cluelessness is actually kinda mutual. Recently I have come to the conclusion that there are multiple reasons for misanthropy and everyone is different to the cause and degree of their 'hate'. Which is why I started the thread in the first place. I feel it's hard for me to explain my ideas mostly cause I don't have the connection with language I wish I had. (Sometimes when I want to be perfectly clear I'll stop and spend a minute or more looking for the ideal word to get my point across in a conversation) Ideas are difficult for me to portray to others the same as they appear in my mind's eye. (make sense?) I wonder if your misanthropic friends have the same problem.

you will, trust me, you will.

I speak for myself, no PhD here and no college level education as at the end of my high school career I felt college was unnecessary and a waste of my time. Though sociology is somewhat of a hobby of mine. (yeah I know I hate people, yet I want to know why they do what they do.)

I'm a reserved person socially which gives me time to observe. And as for me (an American) the western philosophy and way of life is what I really hate about humanity. Natural reactions, when we're pressed and left searching for a response, more often than not comes across as being an 'asshole'. I do it, you do it, we all do it. But again like I said all my observations are of western society where greed is ingrained in us at an early age. But is it really just greed that makes us the 'asshole' or maybe more of self preservation response where agression tends to be rewarded over submission.

roachboy

misanthropy strikes me these days as being kinda facile--you know, easy peasy, reductive. maybe this is something that accompanies getting a bit older. i say this because when i was maybe 20 i was quite full of a sense of my own superiority and quite convinced that most people are simply fucking stupid. but now i don't think so much that people are stupid--instead folk spin imaginary worlds continually and what differentiates one from another is mostly a matter of the frameworks they use to set them into motion. mostly i'm interested in how this spinning happens, curious (and often bewildered and sometimes disgusted) by the premises that folk adopt and why they might choose them--why direction a or b instead of what i'd take to be a sane one.

i've also figured out that it makes little sense to compare yourself to others, and even less to fob off the results of this comparison as issuing into a sense that you're better or smarter or more skilled---there are alot of people in the world and it's inevitable that there are folk who do anything you do or can think of doing better than you do. once you figure that out, you also figure out that comparisons/evaluations are mostly about your own vanity and not about the world. vanity isn't interesting, particularly not the vanity of others.

so you just do what you do, do what engages you, and move along that line. that's what i think matters.

for example, when i was young and stupid i would decide on whether someone was interesting based on the music they liked. of course my personal preferences were by definition far more interesting than anyone else's because, well, the were mine. there was some kind of stupid yardstick that i'd apply--the closer to my preferences someone was, the cooler they were apt to be. but that's an idiotic way to think. not only does it make you obnoxious to talk to, but you miss out on alot. folk are drawn to music that moves them, and they play (for example) what moves them and what matters about that really is their commitment to the form. whether you or i like it or not is of no consequence. if you dont like it it's simply not for you. so what? and there are a host of experiences you miss out on by thinking otherwise. in the end, it's your choice but if by making this kind of choice you're also choosing to live in a diminished world with narrow experience because you're so sure you know everything that you don't venture outside your little tiny box, why do it?

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Zeraph

Well now I feel like I gotta defend myself a bit. I'm hardly living in a box and you know nothing about me. Ironic you're berating us for being judgmental when your being judgmental yourself.

I used to be a bit like your young self too, comparing a lot and feeling superior. Although nothing so shallow as judging based on music taste (no offense). I know I'm not the best person in the world, I could have more compassion, be more active in changing the world, etc. So I fully admit there's at least several million people out there basically better than me. Certainly even more that have actually accomplished things...but I'm still in the top 5% on about any measure of aptitude you care to test me on.

Making mistakes are a part of life...I just make a whole lot fewer than most. If I'm being honest with myself, it doesn't really make me a 'better' person as that's a value judgment which is totally subjective, nor does it make me happier. It just makes me different. Doesn't make me resent the masses any less though for fucking up the world so much.

ring

If one hates and mistrusts mankind;
wouldn't it follow that you would hate and mistrust yourself ?

( a misanthrope purist, perhaps)

This psychological remove tactic is used in many other arenas.

The 'Other'..the 'Thems'

curious business.

Zeraph

I do hate parts of myself. Surprisingly easy to cope with. Also, I'm not sure I've ever met someone who doesn't hate some part of themselves.

Though I don't go all whiny and emo about it. It just is. Usually not thinking about it.

I think part of the problem here is we might be using different variations/definitions of "hate."

KirStang

Never saw the worst of someone else in yourself? Just curious. :shrug:

roachboy

i didn't write that with the idea of making anyone defensive. but i suppose the slippage between what one thinks and how the same thing reads when you write it down is in this case something i should have anticipated. but i didn't.

what i suppose i should have made clearer is that from where i am now looking back on where i remember myself being in my late teens/early twenties, it seems to me that i was living in a box. it may well be that this is a memory function, cross-cut with a degree of that sort of vague regret-like sense that one acquires with time. i think the logic runs along the lines of where i find myself now seems ok (which is inevitable, i suppose, because one occupies a particular position, a particular vantage-point and if you didn't find it ok you wouldn't occupy it--so the evaluative dimension is circular---i guess as far as one can go with that is to say that it is circular--which doesn't put you outside of it---all it does is maybe function to relativize the position---maybe...) so where was one is necessarily something of a way-station. one's own life is a space in which the teleological fallacy seems to be less a fallacy.

ANYWAY (this is perhaps the wine talking)...

1) what makes you think that "the masses" have fucked shit up? it seems to me that most folk are kinda passive and like to like what they're told they like to like in the way they're told they like to like it. so if anyone's fucked shit up, it's the folk who orchestrate opinion management and the educational system that makes this mode of opinion management seem like a great idea...but this is the direction along which i moved personally that shifted this into a political problem. i make no pretense here that this is a necessary direction.

it's a little strange trying to move out from under the usual messageboard thing where anything you write amounts to an assertion of a position that appears entirely thought out. i don't know how this is going.

3) i do think it's more interesting to be curious than to be judgmental--but i've had this discussion alot in 3-d and it hasn't always turned out as i expected. folk tell me that i treat others like they're in a petri dish and i put myself in the position of a vague scientist who wants to figure out how these strange organisms react.
i haven't got a good response to that.
go figure.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

ring

Oh yes of course indeed yes.
I didn't think i was giving the impression, otherwise.
Sorry if that is how it came across.

Perhaps I should have written that differently.

'one' and 'oneself'.... instead of the 'you and yourself'

would that have changed perception of my intended meaning?

I too have spent a lot of time studying petri dishes.
It's easier to see my own, through other peoples eyes.

Zeraph

I know *exactly* what you mean, I do a lot better in real time conversations, but such is the nature of forums.

*chuckles* I think we're actually very similar roachboy.

A point, but currently I am of the opinion that to be passive is just as bad as doing "evil." By doing nothing, by not learning to defend yourself or thinking critically, you are giving your consent to "evil".

FelixP

Humanity should probably go extinct. Not in a nuclear holocaust though, something more gradual. We rape, murder, pillage, and destroy each other, our planet, other species...and we have no plans to stop. Humans are inherently selfish and destructive. Some manage to break the mold, but even those that do are doomed to become the same as the rest of humanity, eventually; it's the human condition. Arthur Schopenhauer knew the fucking score.

*EDIT*
Amen brother.

Although we do differ on this point.

__________________
Free will lies not in the ability to craft your own fate, but in not knowing what your fate is. --Me

"I have just returned from visting the Marines at the front, and there is not a finer fighting organization in the world." --Douglas MacArthur

Plan9

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

MSD

Look at the Milgram experiment. It's always touted as evidence of what people will do simply because an authority figure tells them to, but I see it equally as proof of what people are willing to do when absolved of responsibility. If the "victim" were hooked up to an EKG and flatlined, I have little doubt that most people would continue to shock him. We've been so heavily conditioned to follow the rules rather than think for ourselves that we have no sense of what's right unless our secular or religious leaders tell us so.
I dislike people as a whole, but I give each individual a chance. That make sense?

ring

so perhaps the word 'mankind'
is an oxymoron for some.

just thinking out loud

twilightfoix

I would very much like to thank you for this quote. It so eligently states how I feel about humanity as a whole. We're an overpopulated, non-moralized, society that's strangling the life out of the very planet that we depend on to survive.

Zeraph hit it on the head earlier, true misanthropes indeed hate parts of themselves or their whole being. but seeing as misanthropes are more often than not very intelligent people we see death as a waste and learn to cope with what we're surrounded with.
Humanity is ugly, but the world is a beautiful place.

again my feelings exactly. though most people are fucking idiots, I'm not, and I never know when I'll run into someone like me that can provide me with a good conversation or some insight I didn't have before. and when I do, it's moments like that that make life worth living.

I think you got the context of 'kind' out of place in the word. It should read more like 'kind of man'. as in type rather than gentle. double meanings of words is one of the biggest disconnects I have with language.

ring

I did that on purpose

Xerxys

I'm in a like-loath situation with humans being at this point in time!!!

thespian86

hate is a product of ignorance. indifference is a lot healthier.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Plan9

Indifference is socially inert. How is being the social equivalent of a mowed front lawn healthier?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

thespian86

Of course it is.

You're speaking under the assumption that hate is fact-based opinion but it never is. Hate isn't logical, therefore it's bullshit; some sort of ignorant reaction to a spontaneous emotional response ("You cut me off! FUCK I HATE DRIVERS"). Of the two states of bullshit (not caring and not understanding yet still caring) I'll take indifference.

I'd rather absentmindedly mow my front lawn without thought then light it on fire to achieve the same goal.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.

Plan9

Uh... the depth of the abstractness here has me lost. How does this fit with hoo-munz?

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

thespian86

hahaha perhaps I'm completely off base or I'm making no sense.

What I'm infering is that to mindlessly mow your lawn (something like eating, driving, etc, that takes no real presence of mind) is similar to indifference; with the definition being something like "as much, or as little, interest in either object/task as the other." Because I'm assuming your response of "indifference is socially inert" implied you think being indifferent or passive is socially perverse; that it is healthy to "pick a side" or "have an opinion".

Hate on the other hand is what I would describe as a thoughtless act as well, but with a destructive and passionate root; something similar to lighting your lawn on fire for the sake of cutting it. It's excessive and needless but it gets the job done.

So my analogy describes a lawn that needs to be mowed. You can do it thoughtlessly without care for or against the lawn. The lawn might not look perfectly but it will suffice. Even deeper, you might say your lack of care means not mowing at all. It'll look shabby but it's there. Or you could light it on fire and get rid of the same grass; it's crude and needless but it gets the job done too. You risk destroying your home, your car, your deck, your neighbors home, etc.

I guess another point I should have made is indifference doesn't imply ignorance. You can completely understand either side and all of it's intricacies and still not care for one more then the other. Hate implies an ignorant and fiery dislike for something that could reach destructive and catostrophic levels (see: hate crimes).

Of course I'm implying that you can't truely hate something you understand because understanding provides the ability to remove it from your life or at least have it explained away with logic. I could give an example but that would be tedious. And if you choose to "hate something" after it's completely understood you're being obtuse and ignorant. You can dislike things but to hate it is to want it abolished.

And I agree. Indifference is a social disease, but equal to, or less than, hate in how it affects said society. And in the case of having someone not care about my needs, or having someone want to work to take away my means for fulfilling said needs, I'll take indifference. Both are bad. Indifference is better.

I hope that makes sense.

__________________
EX: Whats new?
ME: I officially love coffee more then you now.
EX: uh...
ME: So, not much.