bem

We all heard about 2012.

So many Explanations and Stories.

I've heard stories about aliens, about astrology, about changing the
rhythm of time, Heaven on Earth, energies, other dimensions,
bad-stuff-happening, galactic-astrological-synchronizations, changes
in calenders, parties, and so many contradicting,
not-really-scientific, not-always-rational data.

I seek to explain the phenomenon, without stubborn rhetoric, without
any vague concepts, and without any energy / aliens / dimensional /
other-unproven-data (or at least considered unproven).

Having said that, I'll try to explain the 2012 phenomenon, or the
phenomenon of 2012 obsession.

1.
My first argument:
Numbers affect people.

People are charmed, for example, by certain numbers, and are afraid,
from other numbers, for a variety of reasons.
I don't claim everyone is charmed and afraid by numbers, but enough
people do, so in the global-scale, number do affect people, not
necessarily in the same manner.
(The number X can charm one person, deter another, and not affect
another two people, in a group of 4, for example).
I find it easy to be charmed by
12.21.2012
or
13.0.0.0.0
of the Mayan calender,
And I am charmed by the fact they are both the same day.

But I would like to focus more on dates and numbers that make people fear.
Some dates frighten some of us:
9.11.2001
or
9.1.1939

Some numbers that might frighten a Christian:
666
13
Or Jews:
6,000,000

2.
My second argument:
The 9 - 11 combination is problematic enough in order to become a date
of destruction.
(Sounds strange, but read it through).

I don't ask here to explain this, just to show this, but I'll try to
give an explanation nonetheless.
One possible explanation, is the common characteristic of 9 and 11.
They are both very close to 10, and this is what is common, and so
their combination emphasizes this.
10 is a very special number for the human psyche, and usually
symbolizes wholeness and completeness and perfection, not for a
mystical, or a numerological, or a really-stupid reason, but because
we have 10 fingers, and they are the base of our counting system, and
10 symbolizes the completeness of the counting, the 10 fingers, and
the 10 digits.
Those of us who look for grades will see a perfection in 10, since it
is the perfect grade.
Those of us who look for completeness in sexuality, and in the merging
of the opposites, will also see in 10 completeness, as 1 is the male
organ, 0 is the female organ, and 10 is their combination in one
complete whole perfect unity.
Those of us with religious upbringing can see 10 in the 10
commandments and other important symbols.
Symbolic connections between 9 and 11, are exactly what moves away
from that wholeness, and emphasizes the distinction from wholeness.
You might think I'm only talking about the WTC 9/11 case, but you'll
understand soon.

I don't think there has to be a cosmic force to make more destructions
on dates with 9 and 11, but somehow this combination affects enough
people for us to have more on such dates.
Maybe the explanation I gave for why this could happen doesn't
convince, but this is not the point, the point is that it is like
that, statistically, as we'll see in some detailed examples.
For simplicity, I'll use both the European style of writing dates -
day.month.year - E - and the North-American style - month.day.year - U.

You might think that finding 9's and 11's in the 20th century is not
so hard, but remember, the 20th century was the most bloody of them
all, which strengthens my theory.

Do you see any combinations between 9 and 11 in the following dates ?
(remember the mind reads digits one by one...)

WTC destruction:
9.11.2001 U

Crystal night, first major violent breakout before the holocaust,
became a memory of a day of destruction:
9.11.1938 E

WW2:
9.1.1939 U

Murder of Kennedy:
22.11.1963 E

Murder of Gandhi:
30.1.1938 E

Murder of Israel's prime minster, Rabin:
4.11.1995 E

Attempted murder of Jordanian King, King Hussein and the start of
Black September:
9.1.1970 U

Gulf War:
1.15.1991 U
15.1.1991 E

And there's more, but I think the list is enough.

Anyone who disagrees, and thinks I'm not convincing enough, is welcome
to present another pair of numbers, whose combination appears in so
many dates that became memories of destruction, and I think it is fair
to request that at least one of the numbers in the pair will be a
2-digit-number.
(Don't tell me 1 and 9, OK ?)

I don't think, and I don't claim, that this is total.
You have many dates with 9 and 11 without any problem, and you also
have destructions in other dates, but this is still a statistical
abnormality.

I'll soon show how the 9-11 combination became a destruction-date in
more than the Western calender to prove my point.
Before that, I'd like to talk a little about the American emergency
phone number
911

We usually think of it as
dial nine-one-one
But originally it was promoted as
dial nine-eleven.
A lot of people complained "they can't find the eleven" so they
changed the way they say it.
So originally the 9-11 combination also appeared in emergency cases.
Police, Fire Department, Medical help, all in one number.
And when do you call ?
When you are more away from the feeling or delusion that everything is
complete and perfect.
So once again, the 9-11 combination is connected in many persons'
minds with "something bad is happening".

You can also see something interesting with Roman numerations.
9 - IX
11 - XI
Again showing that the human mind sees them as "one away from 10",
while X is the most symmetric of all the Roman numerals (both
top-bottom and right-left symmetries, and 90 degrees rotation symmetry
if it's a "perfect" X.), and it's the only letter used (I,V,X,L,C,D,M)
that you can't write in one time without lifting the pen or going over
the same line twice, making it more "special" for the mind, two
symmetrical lines meeting each other in the middle.

Now I'll move to another calender:
The Hebrew Year of Judaism. One of the oldest calenders still in use.
It goes both by the sun and by the moon, making itself more accurate
than the Western calender, or the Muslim one, as far as "making the
year accurate and on time" goes.

Unlike other calenders and traditions, the Jews somehow combined all
their major destruction stories, to one date that symbolizes destruction
The Ninth of AV.
While AV is the 11th month of the Hebrew year.
(The Hebrew calender / calenders have several new-years, but the most
common, and the only one used until today, is the one who starts the
year with a holiday called "The head of the year", in which the digit
of the years increases by one, and is in a month (always a new-moon
day) who is always 2 months after AV, and basically 10 months before
AV, making AV the 11th month, in a 12 months year, eventually making
the 9th of AV, as the 9th of the 11th Month.)

This is a list of destructions that are associated with that date,some
of them are made so by formal Jewish religious law,some are
historically documented, some are of an unknown enough source, and
even if some of it is made up (by others of course, not by me), it
still shows that there's a tendency of the mind to connect
destructions with 9-11-combination-dates:

The fall of the first temple.
(this in the bible appears in 2 places, one as 7th of AV, the other as
10th of AV, but formal Judaism is considering it as 9th of Av, and
this is the official day of fasting and mourning about it, which is
also obligatory, for religious Jews).

The fall of the second temple.

Destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans

Expulsion of Jews from Spain
1492
(A major event in Jewish history, highly documented).

Roman Jews are put in ghettos in Rome.
1555

Expulsion from England and in another year, from France.

First World War
1914
(Calculated by the date Germany declared war on Russia, and it became
a world war, WW1).

The Jews also believe that in the bible, the Hebrews traveled for 40
years in the desert, instead of going straight into their Promised
Land, because they were punished by God for some sin, called "the sin
of the spies", and that punishment is considered to have taken place
on the Ninth of Av, as well as all the others.

So what do we see ?
Nowadays, the 9-11 combination has become a date that symbolizes
destruction in more than one calender.

(There's more symmetry between the 9-11's of the Western and Hebrew
calenders main destruction date - the fall of The Temple,and the fall
of The Towers. Both in a mythological city - Jerusalem is the most
mythological city for the Jewish people, and NYC is deeply connected
to the American Dream, with its Statue of Liberty, welcoming the
immigrants, as well as possessing other American-Dream-Symbols, and
both destructions are on a 9-11 date in the year).

I can't be sure you're convinced why this is happening.
But it does.
Even if some of those destructions, or those dates, are pure
accidents, it causes more fear of those dates eventually.
And again, I'm not saying all destructions are on those dates. I don't
know the dates of the atomic bombing of Japan in the Japanese
calender, but I believe there's enough data to see that something is
going on.
And this finally concludes the second argument.

3.
My third argument:
Starting from 2012, we have much less dates with 9-11 combinations in
the Western calender, (which is the most important and globally used
calender).

In the 20th century, we had the most dates with such a combination.
In the beginning of the 21st, we have a little less.
Ever since 2012, the years don't give us any 11 at all, and we got a 9
in the years only once every 10 years, and in the 2090s which result
in 19 years with a 9 in the year, in all the century, compared to 100
years with a 9, in the 20th century.

So:
I.
If a combination between a 9 and an 11 causes destruction, then we'll
have less destructions.
II.
If such a combination makes people afraid, then we have less reasons
to fear.
III.
If you think such dates don't mean anything at all, then it wouldn't
get any worse, not because of this anyway.
IV.
If enough extreme people go crazy especially on such dates, then they
have less reasons to go crazy.

4.
My fourth argument:
All the spiritual, cultural, pseudo-scientific interest around the
change of 2012, is because of the 9-11 symbolism I showed.

Check out the date given to mark the change:
12.21.2012 U
21.12.2012 E

The year:
2012
Right after 2011, and shortly after 2009, just as they disappear from
the digits of the years.
The Month:
December
The 12th month, right after the 11th month and shortly after
September, just as they disappear from the digits of the months.
The day
21
Not one digit like a 9
Not 1X like an 11
not 20 like 9 + 11
The 21st day of the 12th month of the only year with a 12 in its
digits, in the 21st Century.
So much charm, so much completeness, and wholeness, and symmetry, and
even perfection. you got the 1 and 0 of the 10, next to each other.
you got nothing to remind of the "away from completeness" in this
date. Nothing to remind you of the 9-11 combinations.
no 9
12 and 21
right before 2013
and right before Christmas (never 9 or 11 on Christmas in the
day.month duo)
or 13.0.0.0.0
you got 12, 13, and 21, all can be seen as "going away from 11".
This is truly a nice charming date which symbolizes a drastic change
from a period we had many 9-11 combinations in the Western calender,
to a period with much much less.

One of the things 2012 theorists talk about, is the subject of time,
and the change of time, and the change of the perception of time. They
all fail to understand that what will really happen, is that as far as
dates go, time will affect us differently. This is the expected change
in our "connection with time".
Time will be much less frightening and much less dangerous.

One last thing.
If somehow I gave you a reason to think the coming 2009 and 2011 will
be horrible, this is not necessarily what I think. 1909 and 1911 were
not so nice as years, but certainly not the worst of the 20th century.
(We had more 9-11 combos in any year of the 20th century than is
expected in 2009 and 2011)
And even so, by 2013 it will be behind us.

I'd be more than happy to get interesting remarks, as long as they are
to the point, about my theory.

(please don't analyze my signature in your replies)

BLUE ELECTRIC MONKEY

**************
more data
*************

Some more calculations for those interested:
I defined a "charming date" as a date made of only 3 digits (or less).
Like:
1.1.2000
1.2.2000
2.2.2000 (two digits)
and many more in 2000
and also
so much many
in
2001-2012
like
X.X.200X
10.10.2010
11.11.2011
12.12.2012

you got here 13 years with a lot of "charming dates", and even 13
years in a row, with a date in each year, with a certain number, that
appears both in the day, in the month, in the year, and in a "charming
date".

Now what happens in 2010-2012 ?
This is very special.
All "charming dates" in these 3 years, are with the same 3 digits: 0,1,2
Actually, we get 120 "charming dates" in these years, all with the
same 3 digits, and with no other "charming date" in the middle which
is made of a different combination of 3 digits.
(If you can't see why this doesn't happen in 2000-2002, or in
2020-2022, think of 3.3.2000 or 4.4.2022.)
All this period of 2000-2012, is with the most charm in numbers
possible since we started counting.
2100-2102 is the only next time in the coming millennium with 120
"charming dates in a row all from the same 3 digits". (you need 3
years in a row, all with the same 3 digits that you are talking about,
and all 3 digits appearing in all 3 years)
And when does the charm "end" this time ?
22.12.2012
This is the last of those 120 "charming dates". Right next to the
famous 21.12.2012 to whom the change of time is usually attributed.
(why 120 dates? think of 1.1.2010, 2.1.2010, 10.1.2010, 11.1.2010,
12.1.2010 and 20th,21st and ,22nd of that month. 8 such "charming
dates" in January alone. now switch the month to 2,10,11 or 12, and we
get 5 such months, which gives us a total of 40 such dates in the
year, and another 40 in each of the following years, resulting in a
total of 120).
After that, not only will time frighten us less, it will also charm us
less, making us over all less affected by time, and more "free" from it.
I also guess, that all this 2012 obsession nowadays, is strongly
connected to the fact that "This is the time that dates have charmed
us more than ever before". And after 2012, these kind of obsessions
will cool down, as Time charms us less and less, or frighten us with a
9-11 combo, less and less.

I always considered 21.12.2012 to be such a beautiful date, but now it
seems to me more as a beautiful period of time.
So many dates, in 3 years, all with same digits of the 21.12.2012.

After filling our minds with obsessions about that date, I guess
something like this might happen to us in 2010:
"so many dates seem like 21.12.2012, what's going on ?"

And in 2013, the process is over.
2013 might appeal to the eye, consisting of 0,1,2,3 but these are 4
digits, not 3, and therefore no more "charming dates" until 2020,
(again, if this is how we define charm), and not a huge amount of them
until 2100-2102, and nothing quite like the charm of 2000-2012, the
biggest charm ever, past and future.
(you get some good charm in 1000-1012, but no "three years period of
the 'same' charm").
(3000-3013 don't give you so much charm, 2 is much more common than 3
in the days and in the months, even though 3 is just a little more in
the days than the 0, and we're gonna have some good charm in
2131-2133, 2311-2313, 3121-3123 and 3211-3213
(days and months with 0 and 3: days: 3,10,13,20,23,30,31, months: 3, 10),

The bottom line:
Nothing like this 2000-2012 charm since ever we can really remember,
and nothing like we can predict in any sense of future, and with
nothing even coming close, until 2100-2102.
For all reasons mentioned, our time is the perfect
"time-dates-obsession-period".

curiousbear

I dont know anything about 2012 truth.

I was told by my christian school mates that during 2000 the world will be destroyed or something like that. I wasnt bothered because I never beleived anything like that could be predicted that way.

jewels

For all the rationalizations one can come up with, it still rings of religion and paranoia for me. People like to look towards whatever they can manipulate to give them a look at what they want to see. Reminds me of The Number 23.

__________________
We are always more anxious to be distinguished for a talent which we do not possess, than to be praised for the fifteen which we do possess.
Mark Twain

The_Jazz

Numerology is bunk. That is all.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cynthetiq

yeah. i never understood when they decide to stop adding the numbers...

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Fohur2

Just btw,the explusion of the Jews from Dpain was in 1492 not 1942.

bem

To curiousnear:
This is interesting, before 2000 many people thought something would happen, for more obvious reasons than the 2012 obsession.
Christianity was involved much more.
But why a 2012 obsession now ?
I answer with a strong analysis showing less and less 9/11 combos afterwards, and also less charm.
Nothing to do with natural disasters, only with how calenders affect people.

To jewels:
But why are rings of paranoia are ringing now ? and why are they so time-related, more than ever before ?
I don't only show the change in potenial affect, I also show that this is the perfect time, as far as the Christian calender goes, in order to created the most obsession and charm , this is the best time ever, so many dates are chatching the eye suddenly, and this will also cool down after 2012, less fear and less charm, from dates, which can result in even less affect of time on us in our heads.

To: TheJazz and cynthetiq:
This is not numerology
I also usually think numerology is bunk, and whenever I look at it, The adding part annoys me as well.
The closest thing to numerology here, is when I try to give possible reasons for why the 10 is special for the mind, and for why "SO NOT TEN", might cause also an effect, on the global scale, not on each individual.
But I just use this as to the possible reasons of why there are so many destructions on such dates, and even if that doesn't convince at all, this is just a possible explanation I show to why this might be happening, but I shot that IT IS happening, with a statistical proof, not with a rationalization.
Numerology might be considered as giving unscientific meaning to numbers, but to look at "how those who are effected my numbers act", can still be a scientific look.

To Fohur2:
Sorry for the typo.
It was 1492, not 1942, of course, good my mom didn't see that one
I'll try to edit if possible.

The_Jazz

No, this is pretty much numerology. It's an interesting exercise in math, but that's all that it is. It has no meaning outside of your equation in the real world.

As proof I offer up 12.7.1941, 8.5.1945, 2.14.1929, 12.26.2006 as in Pearl Harbor, Hiroshima, St. Valentine's Day Massacre and the Asian Tsunami. They don't fit your equations at all but fit the descriptions.

Bunk.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Amaras

I'm sorry, but as elegant an argument as you make, I'm not sure this qualifies as philosophy as I understand it.
Lots of #'s, to be sure, but I only have 9 7/8th fingers so that base ten doesn't apply to me.
More like tilted paranoia section if you ask me.
Look, humans are constantly trying to find rational reasons for irrational acts.
The question I have is; Is our need to rationalize blinding us (as humans) to what's going on? What are the limits of our instrument (our brain)? What are limits of our observations of the data (our senses)?

__________________
Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.
-Noam Chomsky
Love is a verb, not a noun.
-My Mom
The function of genius is to furnish cretins with ideas twenty years later.
-Louis Aragon, "La Porte-plume," Traite du style, 1928

tisonlyi

Isn't all this based on the 3rd cycle Mayan calendar?

They only thought it meant the change of the calendar, not the planet/etc.

Maybe though, just maybe... *wishes*

__________________
"I do not agree that the dog in a manger has the final right to the manger even though he may have lain there for a very long time. I do not admit that right. I do not admit for instance, that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America or the black people of Australia. I do not admit that a wrong has been done to these people by the fact that a stronger race, a higher-grade race, a more worldly wise race to put it that way, has come in and taken their place." - Winston Churchill, 1937 --{ORLY?}--

QuasiMondo

The truth is that nothing is going to happen.

The rapidly spreading belief over 12/21/12 is borne of the misery we find ourselves in. Not just the specific economic crisis or endless war of today, but the simple malaise that manifests itself in a society that realizes that it is quite mundane. And it's not just mundane, but it's also powerless against the outside forces that steer our daily lives. We look to our future and don't see the cyberized future of William Gibson or even Masimune Shirow. We look to our past and don't see the fantastic past of J.R.R. Tolkien. We are ordinary, and the belief of 12/21/12 is our attempt to become extraordinary.

Looking forward to this date is no better than the members of Heaven's Gate searching for the mothersehip hiding in the tail of the Hale-Bopp comet. Well, it might be since I don't expect anybody to suffocate themselves. They'll just wake up on 12/22 and realize that there's only three shopping days left.

__________________
Cameron originally envisioned the Terminator as a small, unremarkable man, giving it the ability to blend in more easily. As a result, his first choice for the part was Lance Henriksen. O. J. Simpson was on the shortlist but Cameron did not think that such a nice guy could be a ruthless killer.

-From the Collector's Edition DVD of The Terminator

Leto

Never heard anything about 2012 until just now (reading, or attempting to read, this posting) and to me any kind of prediction based on coincidence of an adhoc numbering system is weak.

If there were no humans to count, what would happen? Anything?

bem

To TheJazz:
Thanks for this list.
Let me answer you as much as I can.
Asian Tsunami is a natural disaster, not a human-made-destruction.
According to my theory, numbers affect people, not Nature.
I suspect most natural disasters in history are affected by other issues of time.
I wouldn't be surprised if more "bad-stuff" happens in the summer than in the winter at some place, or if there are more wars in the summer, because people fight more in the heat, but other than that, I don't think we can see how "time affects nature enough to create natural disasters in specific patterns of dates".
If anyone knows of many major such disasters on such dates, please let me know.
The St. V Day massacre is a gang-related outbreak in Chicago with 7 people dead.
It's not anywhere close to a National day of Destruction, like the 9/11/2001 or the murder of Kennedy.
Pearl Harbor, Sino Japanese war and Hiroshima are all connected to the Japansse people, who are not really connected to the western calender.
A Muslim Terrorist in our days is much more affected by the western calender than the Japanese of the first half of the century. The Japanese Empire held for about 2600 years until WW2, never conquered by the west, and as such were quite separate from the rest of the world as far as symbols and language and religion and calenders go.
What is a greater destruction date ? start of ww2 ? pearl harbor ? or Hiroshima and nagasaki that actually finished the war for the Americans, and for those Americans who lived than it was, "the time the war is over", "the end of global destruction",
and as much as horrible as those bombing were, and I'm anti-nuclear as most of us, the rational behind the bombings was pretty much "how to stop this never ending destruction once and for all right now", not "how to cause destruction per se".
Now as far as seeing 9 and 11 in dates, my standards are just generalizations.
look at 12.7.1941
No 11, but three separate 1's. repetitions of 1 can easily become an 11.
(if I can see it, so can others...., if you "look" for 9/11s, where do you see more ? 23.7.1941, or 12.7.1941 ?
The same goes for:
2.14.1929
minds that look for patterns can tell themselves of this date easily:
"hey, two 2's two 1's and two 9's", and already the 9/11 combo is more conscious, for some of them.
This seems like numerology, so let me explain it like this:

We can explain all the phenomenon using Pareidolia:
pareidolia is "clinically defined" as looking for patterns and seeing patterns where none exist, like faces in the rain, and animals in the clouds, and so forth.
we can also define it in terms of numbers, without the "clinical" consideration, considering the option that some meaning might be there after all:
Number-pareidolia, is about looking for such patterns in numbers.
Dates-Number-pareidolia is about such patterns in numbers of dates.
Numerology is about giving numbers a meaning which is not a mathematical meaning.
(compare "4 means love" to "4 is not prime", both can be seen as result of basic number-pareidolia processes)

Now let's look at the 9/11 and 2012 obsessions with these definitions:
Let's think about this like this:
It is Pareidolia.
All over the world people try to find their number connections using pareidolia, some more, some less, some always, some never.
If humans associate destruction with numbers only using pareidolia, after a few thousand years, you can have two options:
1. If some numbers are indeed more connected to destruction for the mind, globally, they will appear in more cases of pareidolia. If those numbers are not connected to a specific language, they will appear in more cases of pareidolia in different cultures with different language and with different calenders.
2. If all numbers are equally subject to pareidolia as far as destruction goes,
people will find it hard to agree on any set of numbers.

Now, what does the process of pareidolia want to accomplish ?
It wants to give a symbolic meaning to a number.
Let's look at a peridoliac person from the outside.
He tells you "4's makes me love things, 4 is all about love for me, all the girls I loved had so much 4's in their names and lives" and so on.
He says: 4 symbolizes love. (and he can add: to me, to you, to everyone, to our people, to men, for now at least, and so on, while the common to all saying, is giving a symbolic meaning to a number, which is not a mathematical meaning).
All over the world, all cases of pareidolia, are trying to do that.
Now, if a 9/11 combo somehow means destruction for enough people.
(This could be very subtle, even if out of 100 cases, only 5 are 9/11 combos, if it's the most common combo in the list, it's the one with the most accumulating affect, over thousands of years)
what will happen with a "natural" process of pareidolia ?
The symbol will be more accepted as a symbol of destruction.
Right now, the 9/11 concept is a symbol of destruction in the language, and in more than one calender.
From all possible pariedolia going on, that's the one that convinced most people to see some symbolic connection, consciously, between a 9/11 combo in the year, and with destruction.
Nobody forces you to fear the combo, or to look for it, or any other pareidolic activity, but it forces you to see what is the accepted meaning of the combo in language, if you wish to understand language like others.
How does this match the nowadays ?
Why is from all dates of destruction only the 9.11 is remembered with the date, and with the combo ? why is there so much pareidolia about it than ever before ? why can't we explain the 2012 obsessions saying that in this period of time, dates are more charming than ever which causes a specific stream of pareidolia, if we can somehow define charm ?

To grolsch:
This might even apply to you more.
If i have 9 fingers, 11 fingers, 9.5 fingers and so forth, I'm more aware that I'm not a perfect 10, and might be more aware to the fact that people associates 10 with perfection, and also maybe more stressed, when I'm reminded "10 maybe perfect but it's not how it is for me right now"
I'm not accusing you of anything.
But please, testify for yourself.
If you have 9+7/8s fingers from childhood, or from another point in time, did you ever see some clear connection between "10 is perfect", and "not 10 but close to it, reminds me of imperfection" ?


To QuasiMondo and tisonlyi and everyone:
As far as I know, the Mayan calender, or, more correctly, the different versions of the different Mayan calenders, don't state in the calender the end of the world, they simply end.
If you use a circular counting system, (unlike the christian counting which could go on forever mathematically, but like the Hebrew one), your calender ends sometime.
It's usually a long cycle, always long enough in history for "never ending while the culture using it is still a living culture"
Even if it's not a circular calender, it can use cycles, like any other calender.
In the normal count, the dates' digits are circular, and so are the months', only the years go in a linear way.
If I create a practical Christan calender for the next 1000 years, it will end sometime (in a 1000 years), because I only used a cycle of a 1000 years, which I could use again and again as the same calender, for the next 1000 years, I just didn't see a reason to put more than 3 digits in the year.
When we reach 10000, if we still use this counting, we could go in 2 directions:
Either starting to use 5-digits years, which will change the calender in the practical sense (think of computers all regarding years with 4 digits)
or we will simply ignore the initial 1, and keep writing (and talking) about a 4 digit concept, with all of us in perfect understanding, without a sense of change of calender (as might happen it we start thinking about years as a 5-digit-thing). If we go that road, we actually just start the counting all over again from 0 to 9999, actually making the christian counting a circular one which completed a cycle, and we start using it from the beginning again (without forgetting of course that it's the 2nd cycle)
Maybe the Mayan calender(s) is also something like that.
We can Imagine it if we think of it as an "extended-year-calender".
Most use, for practical reasons, a calender for the year alone.
It's a calender that ends, and you use it again (quite the same version), again and again, whenever it ends.
Maybe this is how the Mayan calender goes, it just doesn't end on the year, but on the far far future, in a way that doesn't really frighten anyone, any more than the fears you might feel when the year's calender is over.
Actually, all the possible psychological fears of "the year is changing, the end of the calender seems like some kind of an end to me", will not happen in a Mayan calender, where the symbolic emphasis of the End, is in the far far future, not in every year.
Maybe this is the price to be paid
The Mayans perhaps fear less when the year is over, because they have a very different understanding of "when time/calender ends", so they don't have to celebrate the changing of each year with Light and Trees and Family-Love and other versions of Christmas, which potentially decrease the global "fear", but on the other hand, when their calender finally ends, all accumulated fears of the End, are all focused at a one ending point.
And maybe some kind of Ritual, is finally needed.

(If Christmas is when Christian celebrate the birth of Christ on their version of the main ritual which is connected to the the year changing / ending in the calender, then what is the analogy now that the Mayan's ending ? do we need a bigger celebration in this bigger End ? Could this explain some more-Christ-Is-Coming beliefs-?
This doesn't have to be because the Mayan calender ends.
As I showed, the Christian counting is the one changing in 2012 in its affect. This is a kind of End in the Christian calender itself. So should we be more anxious for redemption, more believing that now is the time of his coming to the world, or should we all just try to have the most appropriate Christmas-Celebration-Analogy ?

The_Jazz

Numerology is bunk because rules are manufactured to prove it. Islamic countries keep a Western calendar? Welcome to the month of Ramadan, my friend. The Japanese were using a Western calendar in 1941. Are you saying that the Western calendar is someho special or has a special influence over those who use it?

Wars are fought in the summer because it is easier to move troops then and easier to support them with food.

You've proven nothing other than you're obsessed with the numbers "9" and "11".

Here are some other non-conforming events that kill your theory:

3/22/1622 - Jamestown Massacre
5/28/1628 - Bolton Massacre
3/5/1692 - Boston Massacre
8/21/1863 - Lawrence Massacre
12/29/1890 - Wounded Knee Massacre
3/10/1906 - Moro Crater Massacre
4/13/1919 - Amritsar Massacre
4/23/1930 - Qissa Khwani Bazar Massacre
9/29-30/1941 - Babi Yar Massacre
6/4/1989 - Tianamen Square Massacre
2/26/1992 - Khojaly Massacre
11/23/1985 - EgyptAir 648
4/5/1986 - Berlin Discoteque bombing
12/21/1988 - PanAm 103
2/26/1993 - first WTC bombing
3/12/1993 - Munbai car bombings

All of these seem to conform to your rules as laid out but are exceptions. I am sure new rules will follow shortly, but please know that I only stopped listing nonconforming incidents because I got bored with the exercise rather than running out.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

roachboy

so the truth of the matter here is that you can add dates horizontally and assign arbitrary symbolic meanings to the sums.
seems a long way around to demonstrate something that takes a sentence to say.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Leto

Huh??? Are you saying that there will be selective events based on numerology?

Why don't we all just move to Japan and stop stressing?

bem

Thanks for your effort. I appreciate it very much.
About Muslim countries, they all were occupied by Western Calender Nations, except Iran, and they all use a western calender for everyday life, with the holidays going by the Muslim calender. For example, since they go by the moon, the Ramadan is in a different time of the year each year. They fast of on every season, but they pay their taxes in the same season every year.
Also, Sep 11 is believed by some to be a kind of holiday in Egypt, and some of the 9.11.2001 attackers were Egyptians.
Also remember, that as far as terrorist go, they are more in a cross-countries-world, like when traveling, than in one country, so like when you travel more you use the western calenders and money, much more, so do terrorists, for across-states-coordination-and-activity

I have to say I myself was never too much obsessed with 9/11 combos, and the only thing that really caused me to say "what's going on ??" is that it's a destruction date in two different calenders.

Now about your dates:
All those massacres are not major destructions at all.
Most with less than 2000 killed.
And what is DESTROYED ?
Babi Yar is a horrible day but its date is not a memory of destruction in Jews basic destruction concepts. It's a part of 6 years of a much much greater destruction.
I'm a Jew and I heard about it only when I was 16, more or less.
And you can even see some kind of a combo here, no ? 9/1941 ?
The same goes for the Tianaman square massacre that started on 5/15/1989
From all dates you gave, only two are about the destruction of an airplane, and they both have a combo:
11.23.1985
12.21.1988

First WTC bombing is not a destruction, and few died.
Berlin and Bombay bombing killed less than 200 people together.

And where is the Destruction Element in your dates ?
Please see how much major destruction is in the following:
Destruction of Both Jewish Temples, Desturction of Jerusalem, Exiles, Destruction of WTC, start of WW2 and WW1, Crystal night is a destruction memory which signifies the beginning of the holocaust, in which many many glasses of windows were DESTROYED.
All this referring to a great destruction of BOTH human lives, AND the loss of matter.
You call 911, when you have a problem with your life or with your stuff.
When a President is murdered, The feeling of destruction is greater than in the murder of 150 people, sad as it may be. Somehow everyone feels it's not like one man died, some thing else is lost or destroyed for the public.

Now again, suppose all your dates are valid ones, all with a great destruction, do you see any pattern in them that is more obvious ?
A 9/11 combo doesn't have to appear in all destructions in order to be "the destruction combo", it just have to appear in more than any other combo.
One interesting thing I saw in your dates, (not 9/11 or 2012 related !!) is that in many, digits appear twice at least twice, sometimes 3 times:
4/28/1628 (two 2's two 8's). 12.21.1988 (3 duos), 5.15.1989 (start of Tianman square mass. also 3 duos), 12.29.1890 (3 duos), 3.10.1906 (2 duos). 4.13.1939...
This might appear as a bigger phenomenon, or as a coincidence,
What's so special about 2 duos or more ?
In such dates, most digits are repeating digits, not different digits. Out of an average of 7 digits, at least 4 are repeating. Maybe this can cause something ? It's quite normal to have so many duos, but maybe in such cases "weaker" cases of a 9.11 combo can become "stronger", just maybe.
And I say that, because ALL the dates I gave for destruction with 9.11 combo in the western calender, have at least two duos. (once you have 11, you just need another duo, but I got it every time in my list without even looking for it).
Many many dates have duos, but even if most have one at least, not all have two duos, but all my destructions dates do. Maybe this is another criteria. Thanks.

Is any of the dates you mentioned is remembered by the date ?
Do people say "remember 2.28 ?" like they say 9.11 or the Hebrew version of it ?

4.5.1986 was almost for sure chosen for time reasons, since it's a 4.5.6.

And about 1941
The only year in time of WW2 with a 9 and two 1's .....
Pearl Harbor, Babi Yar, first extermination camps built, and the holocaust is going to its peek.
If you check wikipedia, it somehow says (not me...) that the first extermination camps were already built by 11.1.1941.... check it out.

Now let me explain the 2012 phenomenon from a different perspective:
See how much analogy between 3 different calenders and End of the World theories.

The Christian YEAR ends, and its most symbolic celebration is Christmas.
The Birthday of Christ.
Christian versions of End of the World theories, talk about a future in which Time will End, or it's called The End of Time or The End of The World, or judgment day, and so forth, and it will also be the time Christ will come to the world, with the perfect analogy of birthday and coming to the world with the End of the Year and the End of Time.
In the Hebrew Calender,
Ninth of Av, The Hebrew 9/11, is the formal destruction day of the year BUT in the End of Times, It will become a day of Joy, since it's also the day the Messiah will be born
(accepted Jewish faith, not all believe he will be born on that day even if he comes, but all know it's the only date in the year considered as a potential birthday of his).
This is about 50 days before the Hebrew New Year.
And in Jewish versions of End of the World theories, The messiah will come at one point near the End, and than there will be some stuff going on like building of Temples and maybe wars, and a religious return, and stuff like that, and then we'll have Heaven on Earth or whatever, and even a final judgment day where it is decided once and for all, who goes where.
There is some distance between the coming of the Messiah and the Final End, as in the year they are about 50 days apart.
(This is in complete accord with this version of the End: at the Hebrew year 6000 he will come, and in 7000 it will End.
6/7ths of the time is before the coming, and 1/7th in between the coming and the End, in this, quite common, version.
The average Hebrew Year, has about 354 days (only adding another month every few years).
So 1/7th of 354 is about 50 or 51.
If we take the Year, and "cut" it with this 6/7 - 1/7 scale, we get 50-51 days before the End. you guessed it. Ninth of AV (Like 11.9th being 51 days before 1.1, if both 11 & 12 months are 30 days, or 30 & 29)
Even if it's 2 days before or after Ninth of Av, it's a superb analogy.
After 6/7ths of the Year, and of the 7000-years-calender, It's the Messiah's Birthday or Coming, and after another 1/7th of the Year, or of the 7000-years-calender, you reach the End.
And what is the the Hebrew Judgment Day ? Again you guess it right, New Year. 1.1.
So when the cycle of the Year or of The Calender is over, you reach The End, and Judgment Day, after the messiah was born or came, after 6/7ths of the way.
The fact that in Christianity, the End of Time effect is much shorter in expected duration, is not only reflected in the Year, but also because In Christianity the Messiah is God, and in Judaism he's not considers as God.
How does this fit together so far about 9/11's and 2012 ?
As I showed, after 2012, we'll have much less dates of 9/11 combos, so, hopefully, much less destruction, and as a direct result, more days days of Joy, as "prophesied" by the Jewish religion, in saying, (about the Hebrew calender...), that one day the 9/11-destructions will be gone or over or happy, or generally: LESS 9/11 destruction.
How does this fit with the Mayan Calender and its related-End-of-Times-Theories ?
Basically it all seems like that the End of the Calender FEARS are actually pretty much an extension of End of the Year Fears.
Many people have some fears before the year ends.
Time is going by, and you are forced to recognize it once again in away that shows you you're not here forever.
You can party with the family and friends and love but some people will still deal with fears coming out.
Now project that, to a bigger Ending of All Time.
It goes by the same symbols, as far as End and Redemption and even Judgements go.
And the Mayan Calendar, don't just end every year, it ends in the far far End.
All collective obsession about 2012, is the same kind of obsession about the end of the year and the end of times in Christianity and Judaism.
And the mayan Calender is just like one big year anyway, it has an End and it starts over.

To Leto:
If 9/11 symbolizes destruction in some calenders, spreading more and more in the world as an accepted symbol of destruction, this is how the effect goes.
If Japanese people are less connected to the rest of the world, they are less connected to global symbolism (see my pareidolia post). Also, if they 9/11 combos" cause" destructions sometimes, you should consider the Japanese calender, maybe there you'll find some basic pattern of number in Japanese destruction dates , that matches some conecpt of destruction for the Japanese person, and maybe even some 9/11 combo hidden there after all for The Japanesse as well.
Just maybe
But still.
I don't claim it's that global, I just claim it's common enough to be the most common, and eventually, after many many years, become an accepted concept of destruction as it appears in dates, in more than one calendery system.

carrot glace

i heard a rumor that the mayans or someone had predicted the end of the world in 2012, obviously this is a misinterpretation. but people have a morbid fascination, with disasters, or the end of the world. to be honest i do like these kinds of movies, but this is much like the y2k scare, people tend to just grab any piece of info,and up they go, like a social experiment gone wrong. nothin like a good paranoia to amuse ppl. just more small talk around the water cooler, nothing to see here move along.

__________________
"blaine is a pain and that is the truth"

bem

Did you read all my posts here ?
Y2K scare was about Christian Symbolism and about computers paranoia. Now both, 9/11 and 2012 obsessions are around dates and numbers and around time issues, more than ever.

carrot glace

for chicken little, the sky is always falling.

tecoyah

The End of the Long Count Calendar does not signify the end of the world...it is the end of an Age. If true, this is a good thing folks.

As for the play on numbers listed in this thread...what happens when these are translated into the Mayan calendar, considering that is what you base the theory on?

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

bem

It's hard to say what a LIVING culture using the Mayan Calender all the time would come up with after a 1000 years.
They'll probably have special dates in the calender, to mark important events the culture is passing through, like wars, and great inventions, and horrible crime, and all that, like any other culture.

If the 9-11 combo issue, is indeed universal, and if the Mayan people are interacting more with other cultures, it will be likely it will appear as a destruction symbol for them in the year-dates, eventually.
If, however, Mayan symbolism is in fact somehow avoiding the 9/11 combo as a sybmolic destruction (if they somehow have or "generate" another stronger combo), it might work differently for them.
But it only might.
The 9-11 combo is now, as it appears in its date-form, an accepted symbol of destruction in more than one calender. If this goes on another few thousand years, perhaps it will "become conscious" in other calenders as well, while we should also suppose, that if it is a universal symbol somehow, on the collective scale, for enough people, consciously or not, it will become more conscious, if it's the destruction symbols of other calenders, because this is exactly what will make it much more conscious.

Leto

Heh.. they are difficult to digest. but at anyrate, the Y2K scare was all about the lack of foresight in programming computer systems in the 1960's, 70's & 80's to handle century date rollover gracefully.

The only thing religious about it was the dogmatic way money was thrown at us old mainframers to fix the issue in time!

bem

From all the responses possible to silly obsessions, making money out of it is for sure not the worst strategy, but it eventually encourages an economic world that encourages silly obsessions.
hmm.
Not that I want to make it a political discussion,
But isn't that an accurate definition of Capitalism ?
mmm.

mixedsubstance

If one person mentions a theory, it imbeds a fear in many. First, the whole Friday the 13th superstition, the numbers 13, 666, etc. created by stories of religion and so on...then Y2K was approaching (year 2000)- nothing happened. Then after 9/11, people fear those numbers or that date now. Now, people are starting to fear 2012 - because they've heard or know that the Mayan Calendar ends in that year. It's almost like people try to 'find a fear' to hold onto. And it usually pertains to numbers. People are just waiting for something to happen- but they look for a sign, and it's usually a number. They think a number will hold more scientific value than anything else.

__________________
Well, isn't that just kick-you-in-the-crotch, spit-on-your-neck fantastic?!?

*Without energy, there would be nothing.*

bem

See how much analogy between 3 different calenders and End of the
World theories.

The Christian YEAR ends, and its most symbolic celebration is Christmas.
The Birthday of Christ.
Christian versions of End of the World theories, talk about a future
in which Time will End, or it's called The End of Time or The End of
The World, or judgment day, and so forth, and it will also be the time
Christ will come to the world, with the perfect analogy of birthday
and coming to the world with the End of the Year and the End of Time.
In the Hebrew Calender,
Ninth of Av, The Hebrew 9/11, is the formal destruction day of the
year BUT in the End of Times, It will become a day of Joy, since it's
also the day the Messiah will be born
(accepted Jewish faith, not all believe he will be born on that day
even if he comes, but all know it's the only date in the year
considered as a potential birthday of his, if at all).
This is about 50 days before the Hebrew New Year.
And in Jewish versions of End of the World theories, The messiah will
come at one point in near the End, and than there will be some stuff
going on like building of Temples and maybe wars, and a religious
return, and more, and then we'll have Heaven on Earth or whatever, and
even a final judgment day when it is decided once and for all, who
goes where.
There is some distance between the coming of the Messiah and the Final
End, as in the year they are about 50 days apart.
(This is in complete accord with this version of the End: at the
Hebrew year 6000 he will come, and in 7000 it will End.
6/7ths of the time is before the coming, and 1/7th in between the
coming and the End, in this, quite common, version.
The average Hebrew Year, has about 354 days (only adding another month
every few years).
So 1/7th of 354 is about 50 or 51.
If we take the Year, and "cut" it with this 6/7 - 1/7 scale, we get
50-51 days before the End. you guessed it. Ninth of AV (Like 11.9th
being 51 days before 1.1, if both 11 & 12 months are 30 days, or 30 & 29)
Even if it's 2 days before or after Ninth of Av, it's a superb analogy.
After 6/7ths of the Year, and of the 7000-years-calender, It's the
Messiah's Birthday or Coming, and after another 1/7th of the Year, or
of the 7000-years-calender, you reach the End.
And what is the the Jewish Judgment Day in the Year ? Again you guess
it right, New Year. 1.1.
(Yom Kippur is for appeals...
So when the cycle of the Year or of The Calender is over, you reach
The End, and Judgment Day, after the messiah was born or came, when it
was 6/7ths of the way.
The fact that in Christianity, the End of Time effect is much shorter
in expected duration, is not only reflected in the Year, but also
because in Christianity the Messiah is God, and in Judaism he's not
considered as God.
How does this fit together so far about 9/11's and 2012 ?
As I showed, after 2012, we'll have much less dates of 9/11 combos,
so, hopefully, much less destruction, and as a direct result, more
days of Joy, as "prophesied" by the Jewish religion, in saying, (about
the Hebrew calender...), that one day the 9/11-destructions will be
gone or over or happy, or generally: LESS 9/11 destruction.
How does this fit with the Mayan Calender and its
related-End-of-Times-Theories ?
Basically it all seems like that the End of the Calender FEARS are
actually pretty much an extension of End of the Year Fears.
Many people have some fears before the year ends.
Time is going by, and you are forced to recognize it once again in a
way that shows you you're not here forever.
You can party with the family and friends and love but some people
will still deal with fears coming out.
Now project that, to a bigger Ending of All Time.
It goes by the same symbols, as far as End and Redemption and even
Judgments go.
And the Mayan Calendar, doesn't just end every year, it ends in the
far far End.
All collective obsession about 2012, is the same kind of obsession
about the end of the year and the end of times in Christianity and in
Judaism.
And the mayan Calender is just like one big year anyway, it has an End
and it starts over.

bem

Some more information about 9-11 combos, in human destruction concepts.

The 911 Emergency Phone Number.

I already said that 911 is the emergency phone number in America and
all that i said about that, but it's more complicated if you check.
If you look at a list of emergency phone numbers all over the world,
you can see the following patterns:
1.
Countries with several such numbers,
Usually Police, Medical, and Fire emergencies.
While the different numbers contain some pattern, that makes it easier
to remember all numbers in all emergencies.
Like:
100,101,102
15,16,17,18
999, and many around 999.
and more like those of with other internal patterns.
2.
Countries with only one emergency phone number.
Sometimes like
000,999,777
(A clear pattern, easily remembered)
But most countries with a single number for emergencies, use
usually 911, and 11X, like 112, and other 11's, and 119 even, with a
lot of 911's, as the most obvious without a simple pattern of DDD,
like 999 or 111.
Now, even if they copied it from each other, what kind of pattern
makes it so easy to remember 911 in case of emergency ?
(Bad patterns don't survive. Many countries used a different variation
of the free-number-prefix, before changing it to be more easily
remembered and easily used, for example, and other "bad" numbers are
also updated)
What kind of pattern makes it easy to remember ?
what do you think ? How did the 911 "got itself" into so many
emergency numbers, and "survived" ?
which pattern does this fit the most ?
a. patterns of emergency phone numbers all over the world ?
b. an easy to remember pattern like 000 or 111 or 777 or 999 ?
c. a pattern of "something bad is happening" ?

And about the rest of the emergency numbers, the most common digits
are 1 and 9, and the most common repetitions are 11 and 99 (many
999's), and the other repetitions are much less common, 22,55,66,77,
and even 00, which appears in the basic 000 and 100.

You can see for yourself how much misleading I am, in wikipedia:
/wiki/Emergency_telephone_number

Blue Electric Monkey

Cynosure

You want the truth? I'll give you the truth...



The meek shall inherit the earth... !

The world will be brought under an absolute, unitarian control by a neo-religious order of technology worshipping priests. They will determine the content of all reading matter, songs, pictures... !

A man – a mesiah! – will discover an acoustic instrument of ancient origin in a forgotten cave. Said man will bring that instrument to the world-controlling order of priests, but they will reject him and destroy the forbidden instrument... !

In despair, the mesiah will commit suicide... Rebellion and anarchy will rise up, once again, to threaten the new word order... ! The order of priests will, once again, lock down the world, showing that their control is still supreme...

Oh, wait...

I thought you said, "All the truth about 2112"... !

Sorry, my bad.

bem

"Trinity said":

Yesterday was a 10 10

Binary Code for the Matrix

red pill or blue pill

today is a 10 11 more code for the matrix

all those strange 911 synchronicities in the movies and everywhere, how do you think those happened? To return to the Source, Neo must first go to the Keymaker,
another program/person with "keys" to everything. The door to the mainframe, under intense security, can only be accessed for "just over five minutes" (until an alternate security system kicks in), or as the Keymaker puts it "exactly 314 seconds." This of course is a reference to pi, the only "anomaly" in an otherwise "perfect" system of numbers.

1) mathematics is the language of nature.
2) everything around us can be represented and understood through numbers.
3) if you graph the numbers of any system, patterns emerge. therefore, there are patterns...everywhere in nature..." - from the film _Pi_


---------------

Thank you Trinity.

PI is a special number, no matter how you count, binary, decimal, or otherwise, and all over the world/galaxy/nature/universe you can see natural patterns concerning PI.

But let's return to the source.

The source of the way we conceive of numbers is with a system of counting based on 10 fingers.
10 is the "key", and even the "keys maker", of all our systems of counting. (we understand binary using our understanding of 10, and then we can even program computers on a pure binary "key").
PI is natural, but the natural source of the artificial Matrix of number obsessions, contains the perfect concept of 10.
How natural it is for the mind to see a man with 9 fingers ?
Ouch.
Few babies here and there all over history came to the world with "not-exactly-10-fingers-and-10-toes".
And even if they were and are, of course, a product of Nature, this was still referred to as an anomaly, and we still think of it as unnatural. 11 fingers are a natural anomaly, but if we see 9 fingers, we usually suppose it wasn't natural (from birth, or by an animal bite), but artificial (accident or incident, by humans and/or human-processed-matter).

(I hope I didn't upset anyone with my stating of "humans see handicaps as unnatural". This is not about my own bias and prejudice, and in no way do I mean they are "less human" or "not natural beings")

And all those feelings and assumptions, were much more common and socially-understood in ancient times, when the "Matrix of number obsessions" was in its beginning.
In the beginning of addressing numbers with a steady system of ten digits, or ten basic numbers.

In the movie, we reach 314, a digital representation of PI, according to Trinity. Thus, we somehow reach a natural element. It's still in the matrix, and it's still a digital-artificial representation, but it's a natural element. It's not dependent on the Matrix, and not a product of it, and it is even above the original-source-of-10.
PI is always an important number in nature, no matter how you count. The ratio between a radius and a circumference is always the same.
We even use it for degrees in angles, as the best base for advanced calculations.
We even write PI, and not some digits, when we address it in the matrix-of-number-obsessions.

In the movie PI, we see the obsession of numbers (*SPOILER*) develops and is finally over. He searches how patterns of numbers manifest in Nature and in the Stock-Market, and the viewers see how the numbers-obsession is affecting him.
He went directly for PI, a much more "natural" number than 10, or 9, or 11, or 23, or 13, or 666, or 2012, or 21.12.2012.
He thought it was about a possible consciousness in an artificial-digital-numeric structure.

And how it ends ?
(SPOILER )
He sits, exhausted, looking at a tree, directly at nature, without looking for numbers anymore.
His uncompromising search, eventually showed him nature, which is beyond what a number-obsession can create, and is even beyond the natural-source-of-the-artificial-matrix-of-number-obsessions, beyond the 10 digits.

Blue Electric Monkey

lagoonguy

This is interesting, if not a bit long-winded. However I'm still hoping for the Mayan Gods to come down in their spaceship and say hello... of course, i doubt that'll happen either. I think the Mayan calendar makers just said "Okay, this is a good stopping point. let the later generation go beyond 2012. My job's done for the day.

Master_Shake

In 2012 the real world-wide banking conspiracy will be revealed to be headed by a nefarious serpent cult, an offshoot of the original Jewish Cabal that murdered Jesus and created the Hitler clones. They currently control all aspect of international finance through their mind-sensing and altering devices surgically implanted in our brains. They reside in a nuclear fallout bunker at the base of Mt. Rushmore.

Everyone knows that.

__________________
-------------
You know something, I don't think the sun even... exists... in this place. 'Cause I've been up for hours, and hours, and hours, and the night never ends here.

bem

In 2012 (future obsession, not-now obsession, time-date-obsession, end of the year obsessions, end of the time obsessions, end if the world obsession, spiritual obsession, 9.11 obsessions, pareidolia obsession)
the real (imaginary obsession)
world-wide (political obsession)
banking (current wall street paranoia obsession)
conspiracy (conspiracy theories obsession)
will be revealed (religious obsession)
to be headed by (master-slave obsession)
a nefarious (good-evil obsession)
serpent (animal kingdom avoidance obsession, nature-is-evil obsession, devil-images-obsessions, sex-obsessions, temptation rebellion and more Garden of Eden obsessions)
cult (cult obsession)
, an offshoot (mind obsession)
of the original (original = authentic obsession)
Jewish (antisemitism obsession)
Cabal (group-of-other-people-obsession, secret-society-obsession, symbolism-obsession)
that murdered (murder obsession. violence obsession, death obsession, morality obsession, blame obsession, expressions obsession, blood obsession, past obsession, history obsession)
Jesus (Jesus obsession, Truth obsession, values obsessions)
and created (creation obsessions, universe obsession, sex obsession, action obsession, consequences-of-action obsession)
the Hitler (hitler obsession)
clones. (cloning obsession, technological obsession)
They (responsibility obsession)
currently (feeling freedom right now obsession)
control (mind-understanding obsession)
all aspect (totality obsession)
of international (modern times obsession)
finance (wall street paranoia obsession)
through (mind-understanding obsession)
their mind-sensing (mind-paranoia obsession)
and altering (no-change obsession)
devices (only-natural obsession)
surgically (medical paranoia obsession)
implanted (technology obsession)
in our (totality obsession)
brains. (what the #$#$ is in my brain ? - obsession)
They (responsibility obsession)
reside (truth obsession, imagination obsession, territorial obsession)
in a nuclear (nuclear physics obsession)
fallout (nuclear war obsessions)
bunker (what the #$@$ is underground obsession)
at the base (foundation obsessions)
of Mt. Rushmore. (leadership obsession, mountain obsession, symbols obsession, multiple-important-others obsession)

Everyone knows that
(postmodernism obsessions, internet era obsessions, information revolution obsessions)

bem

A short summary:

1. Numbers affect people.
2. 9/11 combos appear in so many dates of destruction and in more than one calender, and in many emergency phone numbers.
3. After 2012 you get much less such combos in the dates
4. All the 2012 obsession can be attributed to it.
5. No natural disasters are involved, numbers affect people, not nature.
6. in 2000-2012, dates are especially "charming", causing so much fuss about date and numbers. Since 2013, dates will be less charming (less repetitions) and less dangerous (less 9/11 combos), resulting in a less-effect-of-time-on-us.
7. Fears about the end of the world, are actually fears about the end of the year. Christ's birthday is in the end of the year, and he will come at the end of the world. Jewish formal Judgment-day, is the Hebrew-New-Year (after the year-calender is over), and also when the Mayan calender is over, like when a year-calender is over, some people are anxious about it.
8. All dates-number obsessions, however artificial, have a natural source - counting with 10 fingers.


2012:
I don't believe there's anymore much to it than numbers affecting people, NOT NATURE.
Calenders are not designed in any way that can predict natural disasters. They are constructed in a way that corresponds to the natural cycle of nature and mankind to some extant with seasons and weekends and other mainly sun & moon related cycles.
They are not constructed in a way that can predict, or cause, a natural disaster, but in a way that can make some people feel some things, sometimes.

Cynthetiq

wait so nothing happened or moved before the advent of numerical systems? so in the era of pre-history... you've got people who weren't affected by nature because numbers didn't exist?

I think that there are many that were killed by exposure and predators that would have a different opinon of that.

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skada

I think I should start saving food cans.

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bem

You seem to misunderstand.
Number-of-dates affect humans not nature. This is the issue.
Many things happened before the advent of numerical systems, but not so much as massive human-made destruction. This was a later development.
This is not about not being affected by nature, but by numbers. in pre-history no one would be anxious about 2012 or other number formalizations of time.

All people who were killed by exposure and predators would probably have a different opinion about everything, but I guess they wouldn't say most of the attacks were on a specific pattern of dates, or that one date become a symbol of an attack, or something like that, nor would they say that being eating by a dinasour is a human-made-destruction, unless someone drove tham into the animal's mouth.

Cynthetiq

sure animals would understand something like a 28 day cycle where more nocturnal predators would be out hunting because other animals were out in larger numbers because it was easier to see. So if there was intelligence in the animal you'd peg it to the number 28?

Numbers are just a representation of something. Sure there are some cultures that are very wary of numbers, but there are many that are not at all. I'd say that numerical fears are passed on via nurture since there is no rational reason for nature to pass it on.

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bem

Thanks for this post.
I suggest we use the matrix model I showed (nothing to do with the movie, but with the artificial matrix of number obsessions and the natural source of our counting systems, the 10 fingers)
Now, what natural cycles in nature, which we can define with numbers and days, are there ?
We got many.
We got the "sun cycles", basically, the day and the year.
This affects nature a lot, we get light and darkness periods, we get seasons, we also get basic counting.
We got the "moon cycles", (day/night semi-cycle of appearing/disappearing, but still in a different manner every day/night, relative to the steady SUN) and a more basic lunar-moon-month cycle, with effects of new-moon/full-moon, and tides, and a correlation to many other natural cycles in nature, such as the human female menstrual cycle.
Other cycles, are also according to the planets, and the constellations.
There are about 7 classical planets, each with some uniqueness attributed to it in each day on the week, showing some possible correlation to nature (like each one of them is closest to the sun, relatively, for Earth's viewpoint, and also the Sun is seen as moving through different "background of stars" as seen from earth, which is divided to 12 or 13 constellations, usually, in according to the cycle of the moon, originally.
(Hebrew new moon is always a new month, and many celebrations are in the middle of the month, on the full moon, The Hebrew calender goes by the moon and the sun, thus using a 12 months years, with a 13 moon year every few of years, on a fixed cycle, causing the same holidays to appear always in the same seasons and in the same moon-phase)
Some basic astrological FACTs we can show so far:
It's possible to assume that people that are born in the summer are somewhat statistically different from those that are born in the winter-time.
It's possible to assume that the summer is hotter and the winter is cold and rainy, in the northern hemisphere, almost always, and this seems to be the way it goes forever, even with possible "pole shifting" (think about it if you need to).

Now, what happens with calenders and other artificial (human-made) number-usings ?
You use a counting system based on 10 fingers.
The intelligence you referred to in the above-mentioned-animal, will be activated not by "counting 28's", but by this possible "analogy to counting in the animal kingdom":
- I count much light in night, so I go to hunt
- I count much animals I can eat, so I know it's good to do it. (possibility, the first is enough of course for most predators, and other animals that are attracted to light, with bugs being a common example, which could be widely and wisely used by the predators)
- I count less light in night, and then more light at night and then less and then more, so I know the the more I reach the maximum, I should be in the place where I saw most animals, and I should come closer to it, if I see the light-night is getting stronger each-"day", and in the maximum-light-night I'm going to be there for sure. Mmm, maybe I should convince others that my counting is good, I might yell and houl in full moon to convince my fellow predators that it's the numerological-feeding-time.
- If I had intelligence I would build a calender to make us all go together to hunt on full moon without having to shout and scream about it, but I have 16 fingers on 4 limbs, so I will count this cycle of feeding-time differently from animals who don't hunt, don't believe the full moon affect nature as I do, don't feed at night but do other things at night that they can see better under the moon, stand on 2 legs, use 10 fingers, 5 of them usually more than others, and 1 finger in each hand is opposite to the others, and they don't seem to have a tail on themselves to count with.

Interesting to add:
The cycle of the week/weekend is believed to be of a religious biblical source and not of normal nature. It is nice to see that the name for Saturday, both in English and in Hebrew, shows a linguistic connection to the planet of Saturn (Shabtai in Hebrew, Saturday is Shabat, or Sabbath in English translation of the concept)
(The classical list of planets is obviously "not accurate enough", since they count the sun and the moon (reflected in the western calender as Sunday and Monday, and only other 5 planets, but this might be also corresponding to some natural-effect-of-the-universe as seen from earth, and also corresponds to the 28-days moon cycle, dividing it to 4 basic halves (one half, and then another half of each half, I don't divide the moon cycles to thirds, but to halves, and I get a pretty good correspondence to new-moon, half-moon, full-moon, half-moon, which is also in according with cycles of sex, since the cycles of sex are affected by moon-periods, and by weekends, in some way that can naturally reflect our "forgotten" full-moon-hunting-obsessions,

Doesn't have to be "nurture" per se.
Calenders are, as you said, numbers that represent something, or a numero-system of time of a year. And when you represent the number of the calender based on a counting system of 10-fingers, that can cause "possible fears, not directly connected to nurture".

When are we afraid of dates ?
1.
When money is involved, usually without any connection to Nature. we get our salaries and pay our taxes on a money-calender, and it can cause some fears about it.
2.
When the year is getting close to its end.
Many people feel that "wow, time goes by so fast, I don't notice this, hey, I'm getting older, could it be 2008 already ?"
Nothing really connected to nature, but to the representations of numbers (some are more depressed on the winter anyway, of course, but some calenders end in the summer and causes a "ending effect" without the possible winter-depression.
Different "human made calender" also can cause us fears:
The school year calender is quite artificial and fixed, and causes many possible fears, like when the vacation is Ending.
Many things in society go by an artificial calender: TV broadcasts on specific seasons and precise hours, "work-calender" "tax-year-calender" "birthday-calender" "school calender" "dead-lines-calender" "reviews calender", and so forth.
Also, when the mayan calender is over, some fears can be created, and as shown above, fears about the end of time, are (in 3 main cultures) with complete symbolic analogy to the fear/faiths of the end of the year-calender (of the same culture).
3.
When dates remind us of things we fear, or if specific dates "succeed" to frighten us. or if specific dates cause people to do "bad stuff" (more, statistically), as if they are in a full-moon-hunt.
All this Reminding, and possible outbreaks, are all using the artificial way we represent dates, an artificial representations of time, always using some 10-fingers-counting-side-effects, even if it is built as much as possible to conform to the natural cycles of the year / moon / week / day / rest-of-nature, and even when counting hours and minutes and seconds, with artificial models built on previous artificial models:
24 hours a day, on two 12 cycles of numbers, as the day is the "sun cycle", and the sun-cycle is connected to 12-moons-possibility, and is more easily handled, humanly-fingerly-digitally-mathematically, than a 13-hours cycles
60 minutes and 60 seconds show both the X0 pattern of 10-digits-systems, and is also connected to 12, as it is 12 * 5 (we have 5 fingers), and contains the 6 digits, which is half of 12 (I already now 5 is half of 10 with my fingers, and I think half is more important than third, because I divide my 10 fingers to two hands, when counting, not to 3 hands, and I also think that multiplying by 5 is more easily understood, when you have 5 fingers in each hand, and not 3, or 4, or some kind of difference between the number of toes and fingers)

Yes, I appreciate the Mayan-2012 people who aspire to using a calender that is more according to nature.
But you don't need to replace one artificial calender with another one. (you can say it's not artificial and designed by a divine entity, but you can't understand and use it without using your basic models of counting with 10 fingers, or without models of counting using the basic 10-counting model).
If freedom from time is what you want, after 2012 my theory shows time will be less dangerous and less charming, as far as human-destruction and charm go.
If freedom from your calender is what you want, that consider that a freedom from A calender is what you want.
If a natural cycle calender is what you want, just look at nature directly,
If a natural-based calender is what you want, all calender are naturally based somehow, and the basic naturals things about it are:
Earth, Sun, Moon, Day, Month, Year, Week, and a 10-fingers-human.
If you think the western calender should be replaced because it bad, and evil, and enforcing unnatural structures, please note that after 2012, it will be less "evil", less "charming", and thus, "less composing unnatural numbers".

(for all those who forgot or don't know: "Digit" originally means "Finger", check it out)

bem

Q & A regarding the last post:

I.
T says:

though it is unclear where one ancient New Guinea culture fits in - it has a 33 base system, which includes toes, testicles and penis, said Prof Butterworth).

B.E.M.:

How does this add up to 33 ? I got 23...

All in all, all counting systems in all cultures have a "natural source" of counting with body-parts.

II.
T says:

If your interested in the 33, then I suggest it is a good topic for your next research. All in all, since it is people who are doing the counting then trying to differentiate 'natural source' is not even wrong.

B.E.M:

I got some good 33 and King-David stuff.
King David is the first Israeli king of Jerusalem, City of God, and is a beloved character in Judaism (Main messiah-king-character), In Christianity (Jesus son of David, King of the Jews), and in Islam (Called Daud, Father of the also-beloved-by-all-three-Suliman, is the one to whom the Zabur (psalms) were given, as the Tawrat (The law) was given to Musa (Moses), and as the Iglis (Gospel) was given to Isa (Jesus son of Mary), but is also not-accurate in Islam, since they consider all these 3 to have been corrupted by humans and writing and copying and are not original documents as the Koran, the Muslim Bible.)

David ruled 33 years in Jerusalem and he is also number 33 in the Dynasty of Man:
Adam, Sheth, Enosh, ...., Noah (10), .... Abraham (20), Issac, Jacob/Israel, Judah, Peretz, Hezron, Ram, Aminadav, Nahshon, Shalmon, Boaz, Oved, Jesse, David.

Now 33 is a palindrome, and so is David in Hebrew: DVD, and also his Hebrew father, Jesse: YShY, so actually David son of Jesse is "Palindrome son-of Palindrome" (First two palindromes in this dynasty of Man, if we're excluding the first palindromes of language: ABA (dad) and A(I)MA (mom) (pronounced IMA, written as AMA), and also excluding the other 3-letters-Hebrew-palindrome in the family: uncle (also DVD)).
(Also: The Hebrew EVE and SIS' are not palindromes)

Let's just add that:
1. King David prime number, if at all, is 7, not 33. (not only a mathematical prime, OK ?)

2. 3-letters-palindromes in Hebrew is a bigger subject than discussed here, and if you'd like a list of them tell me.

3. An hypothesis of mine:
ALL languages have at least one word for dad, and at least one word for mom that are either:
(now don't get smart with me, I will gladly change this hypothesis to Most Human Languages)
a. 3-letters-palindrome (mom, dad, ABA, AMA, PAP....)
b. starting with a 3-letter-palindrome (MAMa, MAMiminia, DADa, DADdy)
My suggested explanation:
Babies start learning language somehow mainly pronouncing one consonant and one vowel, and repeating themselves)

4. Most 33-obsessions and Internet-Numerology I heard about can be connected to this:
a. Freemasonry has 33 "degrees", and they are "free temple builders", and Jerusalem is the City of the Temple.
b. All Jewish And/Or Christian And/Or God And/Or Western And/Or Secret-societies And/Or Western-politics And/Or World-domination-concepts conspiracy-theories, somehow connected to 33, can be attributed to this.
c. If you really want to show me that 33 is about more than that, we should consider 33's in Eastern Cultures.
d. If the month has up to 31 days, then 32 is something "beyond" some concept of limitation in time-counting, and 33 is "beyond the beyond" (a "word-palindrome")

III.
C says:
The Mesoamerican numeral system used by the Long Count calendar under which the 2012 date is so remarkable is actually base 20 (vigesimal, a pretty cool vocabulary word), not base 10 (or 23 or 33 ).

B.E.M.:
I think we've already shown some possible natural-source-counting-with-body-parts, that can mainly give us a 10 base counting, and also possible 20, 23, and 33's, as with toes, and fingers and more possibilities.

I must say here some things about the Hebrew Language and about the Hebrew Counting, which revolve around 22 letters/numbers/digits and 10-digits.
The Body-parts-analogy given in Hebrew Mystical Numerological texts, says that 22 is "given" with 10 fingers, 10 toes, and the sexual organ and the tongue.
I guess this is how it goes in the numerology of a Circumcised Hebrew reality-tunnel.
But this is just a possible explanation, the facts are:

1. Every Hebrew letter is attributed to one of 22 numbers: 1..10, 20, 30, .., 90 ,100, 200, 300, 400
This is used in all counting. It is used also in numerology, but more than that, in the Hebrew Calender dating system.
So today is the Hebrew date of:
27th of the first month, or the 7th month, in 5769
This is the first month of 5769, but when Hebrew months are given numbers, it is also sometimes the 7th month.
You write it:
K"Z B-TISHREY (HA)-ThShST
Pronounced Kuf-Zayin Be-THISREY (HA)-TA-SHA-SA-T
KZ (K is the 11th letter of the Hebrew Alphabet, counting as 20, and Z iz the 7th (in English G), so this means 20+7, or 27th)
B- means IN, as in OF.
TISHREY is the name of the month, not its number.
Th-400, Sh-300, S-60, T-9, so this means 769
And Ha in the beginning of the year, is occasionally used to say it's 5000, while it's not important for practical calender-uses, and while H count as 5, and this in the date is accepted to mean 5*1000.
Not all counting is so simple, some letters that appear in "the name of God" are "sacred" so you never write 15 and 16 as YH or YV (10+5, 10+6), but you write them as TV and TZ (9+6, 9+7), manifesting in the calender mostly around the time of the full moon.

This shows that Hebrew counting mainly uses a system of both 10-digits (and 10 basic numbers and 10 fingers and 10-multiplications) and both a 22-letters-counting-system.
(which is quite basic, and can be expanded for "initials", "adding-digits-numerology", "different-final-letters-numeric-value", other-mental gymnastics and more, but today mostly in the official calender)

2.
The Hebrew 22 letters are quite "original",
See the invention of the alphabet in wikipedia.
History of the alphabet - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Basically,
Before that, people used "signs for words" and other expressions, and at one point in time they started to use written signs for letters, thus using a final-alphabet for an unbounded-words-vocabulary.
Science now believes that modern alphabets have originated in Israel/Sinai/Egypt and are based on an old 22-letters alphabet, with a strong one-to-one correlation to the still-used-Hebrew-Alphabet (however changed in writing and in accurate-pronouncing, but with the same order and length and even "meaning of the name of the letter" - D(4) is a door, G(3) is a camel, V(6) is a hook, and around 6-7 letters with names that refer to body-parts....), and from which, science believes, most alphabets originated.
Thus you can see some correlation between the Hebrew and English order of letters, e.g.:
A,B,G,D - A,B,C,D
H (5) - E
V - F
K (20,11th letter) - K
L,M,N (30-50, 12th-14th) - L,M,N
Z (7) - G
I/Y (10) - J (All English Names for Biblical People and for God that have J, have I/Y (10) in Hebrew)
Last 4 letters: Kuf, Resh, Shin, Tav, K,R,Sh,Th
Reminds someone of Q,R,S,T ?
This correlation is in most other (human) alphabets as well.

3.
The Hebrew language allows/enables:
a. to use the body-parts of the mouth and tongue in the spoken language, and the signs of the operations of the mouth and the tongue in the written language.
b. to use the same symbols for digits (originally digits are symbols of the hands, not of the of mouth).
c. to use the "holy name of god" in written language while keeping it out of the spoken language, thus creating a language structure with a symbol for "that which is beyond spoken language", even if this is a signifier without a signified.
(this has also some effect on the visual aspects of language, and shows that the Hebrew language is not only about language-that-can-be-said-and-heard-and-numbered)
d. to use words in the female form (the Hebrew female is Nekeva, which means pinhole, aperture, and allows you to use the female-organ-concept in order to create female-concepts-in-language).
(all names and words and verbs are either male or female in language-forms)
(you use the same "letters/digits" for 3 men and 3 women, but the word-for-Three is different).
e. Monotheism and more, "no more of those confusing hyrogliphs and pharaohs and artificial-pyramids and artificial statue-gods and other strange symbols of Egypt telling us what to do and how to think"

4.
2012 can be seen as 10 and 22 in basic numerology, and once again we can see a natural source for the 2012 obsessions, especially if we go by the computer-science definition of considering human-language as natural (relatively to artificial (computer) languages).

Blue Electric Monkey
-----Added 25/10/2008 at 11 : 46 : 41-----

murp0434

I'd love to read all about this but sir your posts are so long and my attention span is so short
-----Added 26/10/2008 at 12 : 00 : 34-----
to expand on that comment however I'd have to agree that no matter how may different ways you add up the same numbers at the end of the day if they are not attached to something real and practical they do not matter. I can add up my assets and liabilities and work interest on loans and figure ROGI but adding dates using the mayan calendar to foretell impending doom is a waste of time.

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