skizziks

I'm posting here because to me this is a philosophical question.

When I'm talking incest, I DO NOT mean rape, forced incest, or any of that.

In this instance, when I talk about incest, I am talking about mutually consensual sex between immediate family members.

I know children of incestuous parents can come out unhealthy and fucked up (royal family. west virginians) (calm down, it's my lame attempt at humor in the middle of a serious question), which is, I assume, the main reason incest was outlawed. Trying to keep people from peeing in the gene pool, cross breeding makes healthier stock. Mutts are usually healthier than pure breeds.

I'm talking about sex for fun.

For example, a brother and sister, both adult, have sex for fun, not procreation. Why is that wrong?

If a brother and sister were separated at birth, given up for adoption, met 20 years later and hooked up, not knowing they were related, it wouldn't matter. But suddenly, because they grew up together knowing they had the same mother, it's wrong. Why?

What about all the men with their oedipal complex who frequent the incest porn forums?

I don't think it's a natural disgust. I think we learn it's wrong.

So, why is it wrong?

levite

I can answer this two ways. I can answer as a Jew, whose first response is to think in terms of Jewish philosophy: incest is wrong for Jews because the Torah tells us that God forbids it. This explanation is, of course, only relevant to Jews.

I can answer as a reasoning thinker. Incest is as wrong as our societies choose it to be. Probably, incest taboos developed to prevent excessive interbreeding; given that we are capable of screening for genetic abnormalities and refusing them to enter the gene pool, it should no longer be a factor. There is no objective (non-faith-based) reason that I am aware of why incestuous sex between two consenting adults ought to be considered immutably Wrong in modern Western society.

That said, I did have cause to say in a different thread-- and will repeat it here-- that I would imagine that incestuous sexual relations strike me as being extremely prone to creating or fostering identity, boundary, and self-other differentiation issues, as well as various tensions relating to jealousy issues. Does this make it intrinsically wrong? Probably not, although it might make it intrinsically unhealthy or unwise. Then again, if we call all unhealthy or unwise relationships "wrong," we'd probably end up indicting most of the relationships in America.

So, I guess, my answer as a reasoning thinker boils down to: it isn't.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

Makedde

Incest in itself is sickening, and I imagine that is the way any normal person would think. But at the same time, it is not my business to tell another person who they can and cannot sleep with.

Provided the couple do NOT have children - being sterilised would be preferable - I see not reason to be against it, nor to ban it. Personal disgust is not enough.

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Daniel_

Anthropologically it probably emerged when people started to notice that children of siblings have birth defects more often than other families.

Genetically, inbreeding tends to magnify recesive traits, and can lead to serious problems in the offspring.

This creates a social bias against incest, and it becomes cultural.

Once it's taboo, people stop thinking about WHY it's taboo.

Given the use of contraception, there is no MEDICAL reason why people souldn't all be motherfuckers and so on; however there are also issues of coercion and force - in a family it's hard to show that volition was truly there because you can't rule out conditioning and so on.

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jewels

From wikipedia:

Despite what I've always thought, the article also states that:

I'm not sure if this is scientifically accurate, but surely someone knows.

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ratbastid

This makes me think of a story I heard about kids raised on kibbutz. Seems early communal-style kibbutzim had separate houses for the children. So a couple would have a child, and the child would live in a nursery for several years, then in a "children's house"--they'd know their parents and spend the day with their parents, but their quarters were communal with the other children.

After these kids grew up, they all left the kibbutz to find partners. Seems growing up together had them be too familiar with each other to think of each other as potential mates. The idea that they'd be the next generation of the kibbutz went out the window, because none of them could imagine being romantically involved with the girl who lived one bunk down their entire childhood.

I remember in high school, my friend Sara and I tried dating. I knew Sara from when we were quite young, we'd gone to church and church youth events together for years and years. I took her to my Junior prom. Turned out kissing her was like kissing my sister. Very weird. We were really great friends, but there was no chemistry whatsoever, despite it seeming like there ought to have been. Really, it was very very strange. And I could understand how those kibbutz kids would just be numb to each other.

skizziks

if i understand you correctly, you are disgusted by the thought. this is kind of the heart of the question. can you explain WHY you are disgusted? why does the thought of incestuous sex bother you when, i assume, thoughts of "regular" (?) sex doesn't bother you?

what makes it disgusting?

levite

Yeah, I can see it also. In many ways, there was a de facto siblinghood established: just like adopted siblings, unrelated by blood, will still consider themselves family, and behave as though bound the by incest taboos. But again, Israel-- like most places in the Western world-- has a society that has a very strong incest taboo, so much so that it reflects itself in many ways in how we treat siblings, how we interact as families, how we live or don't live together.

I'm thinking now of some family friends of mine, who have a nine year old girl and and eight year old boy, and they just began forbidding them from showering together or sleeping in the same bed-- not because they feared the children would interact sexually with one another (that was never even mentioned), but because they presumed that quite soon, the privacy taboos would kick in, and they wished to spare the kids the chore of putting an end to these shared experiences, and (as one of the parents confided to me), they presumed that one or both of the children would begin experimenting with masturbation at some point soon, and it was only right to give them privacy to do so.

I offer that story because of the presumptions and points of view therein. The incest taboo in Western society is so potent and so pervasive that even considering it as a reason for separating their two kids at key moments simply didn't occur to my friends. The act was literally unthinkable.

By the same token, in the discussions within the Jewish community about halakhah (Jewish law) and sexuality, no one has ever, or I imagine would ever, propose weakening or reinterpreting the prohibitions on incest. There has been no communal thought to do so, and it would be phenomenally difficult from a halakhic point of view. But this is all further proof of what I am saying: nobody asks for justifications on the incest prohibitions in the Torah. They want to know why we are prohibited from eating shellfish, or from working on the Sabbath, or from marrying non-Jews; but not incest. That one goes without saying, because at this point, it is presumed by most to be self-explanatory.

And while, as a Jew, I am perfectly happy to let the matter rest as it is, nor do I personally feel any desire to engage in the act, I acknowledge that this is a socially constructed state of mind, both as a Westerner and as a Jew. I still don't believe there is anything "objectively" wrong with incest, provided that it is accompanied by genetic counseling in cases of pregnancy.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

curiousbear

Your question itself is not correct. You had already assumed it is wrong, and questioning why it is so? You could have asked "Is incest wrong? If so why?"

You are not thinking or reasoning. You are only expressing your feeling towards it.
Please if possible try reasoning it

Incest is not only a taboo for humans. Many of the social animals in wildlife AVOID it. Male youth are chased away to find mates from other colonies. You can observe this in lions, hyenas, dogs, wolves, elephants etc. I had seen several videos mentioning this fact on discovery/NGC/AnimalPlanet.

But sex for animals is only to procreate. I dont think other than humans and dolphins, any other animal mates for pure pleasure.

Having said that if INCEST, INBREEDING and SEXUAL ABUSE are understood clearly as different, I dont think incest is wrong.

Now why is that everyone here relates incest to brother sister? Do you consider sexual activity, relationship between father/dauther, monther/son too? Because being very clear about what you treat as INCEST is very important to reason, express it properly.

Example some one may say brother-sister incest is ok but mother-son incest is sick!

I personally think any form of incest between close family members with mutual consent, understanding and sound relationship, which doesn't lead to inbreeding, and only serves sexual exploration, pleasure, fun and intimacy.

But fact is I never had slightest of sexual attraction towards my mom, my fictious sister. In fact I adore them for their nature, style, capabilities and kindness towards me. I get flattered the way they remember me and associate me to certain things in this world. But never been sexual. But the strangest thing is I read erotica that involves incest and find it hot.

Guess our mind is the most difficult thing to know completely and understand fully.

Sorry it is a long post

Cynosure

His assumption and the way he phrased his question doesn't necessarily make that question incorrect.

Computers are constructs of pure logic and cold reasoning. Human beings are not. (No matter how hard some try to be.) Sorry, but when it comes to human beings and their sexuality, "feelings" play a large and integral part in the affair of things.

Have you not heard of the Bonobo monkeys... ?

Bonobo - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Or are you including monkeys as "humans"?

From your arguments here, I gather you believe that any sexual activitiy is permissable, and thus there is no "wrong" in it, as long as it's between two consenting adults, and as long as a 3rd person is not hurt as a result of that activity. But I bet the majority of human beings on this world do not believe that to be a truism.

inBOIL

This is true, however it vastly increaces the number of children who are born with severe defects. Inbreeding also eliminates many beneficial mutations through genetic drift. This is of concern among the MHC complex, where a wide variety of alleles helps the effectiveness of the immune system.

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Makedde

There is a father and daughter incest relationship happening here in Australia. It's been on the news and in the papers. Apparently they were separated for many years, then met up again. They knew they were biologically related, but entered a sexual relationship anyway. There wouldn't be a problem with this - expect the couple had a child together. A girl named Celeste. They claim she is healthy, but who is to know what her future holds?
I do not care what people do, if people wish to have relationships with the siblings or parents, good luck to them, but NEVER bring an innocent child into this world.

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curiousbear

Thanks I dint know about the Bonobo monkeys

My post conveys the whole lot of difference between how I feel and think about incest. I also did specify a quality of atmosphere, level of relationship, purpose of the act... Considering all that is understood yes, what you say above is right about my post.

I frankly reveal the contradiction in me. Reading incest erotica feels hot but no such feeling ever arises with family members. It is just different. Reasoning that contradiction and and understanding it is a philosophical experience I beleive.

Now about the rest of the human beings belief... As I had posted in an other thread earlier "...doing anything with fear of being caught, despised, ashamed, humiliated, punished by everyone around you in a society where we live is CHAOS. It can rip everyone in the family with pain. It doesnt matter whether it is wrong or right. Even if you are strong today and can stand it all, no one knows whether you can stand so for ever!"

what you think rather what you feel will make hell a lot of difference in the way you can REACT and HANDLE when you face it yourself!

PearlSonja9

I think one reason why incest is wrong is because of developmental reasons. In order to mature, you have to emotional detach yourself from your parents and your siblings, and bond with people outside of your family. If you carry on an incestuous relationship, I'd think you have a problem forming relationships with people who are not your immediate family.

And besides, it is disgusting. How could a parent look at his or her child and want to sleep with it? That's just plain fucked up.

As for sibling-incest, again, part of being human means to take a risk and bond with people outside your family.

curiousbear

I repeat, almost all social animals in wild life DO NOT DO INCEST/INBREEDING. so the taboo of incest & resistence to inbreeding is not just human science but also animal instinct

RetroGunslinger

I don't see anything wrong with it, as long as it's not for procreation, in which case it is wrong if simply for the extreme likelihood that it would ruin the life of the child.

From my perspective, free love is free love. As long as it doesn't hurt anyone, I'm fine with it, and if I had a really hot cousin who wanted to fuck my brains out, I'd probably slip on a condom and have at it. I'd still be out there chasing tail with no relation to me, I'd just have an extra, taboo notch in my belt.

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skizziks

Most animals are not monogamous, except in instances of species survival, so polygamy is animal instinct, yet humans keep trying to stay monogamous.

Makedde

It's disgusting simply because two biological relatives are in a sexual relationship.
I have a sister, whom I love dearly, but the very thought of having sex with her makes me want to vomit. I cannot imagine such a thing, and don't know how anyone can see their siblings, or parents, in a sexual way.

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skizziks

No, it's not disgusting because "two biological relatives are in a sexual relationship." That is not a logical argument.

I'm not arguing that it disgusts you, I accept that fully. I want to know WHY it disgusts you, other than "Because they are related." Would it disgust you if it were an adopted brother and adopted sister? Would it disgust you if it were brother and sister who didn't know they were related?

I'm not trying to pick on you or be a dick about it, I'm genuinely trying to understand what makes someone immediately biologically related to you unattractive. They are humans, assuming they are not hideously deformed, why can't they be considered a potential sex partner?

Are we hard wired to automatically not find an immediate relative attractive? Or is it a social thing?

Grasshopper Green

I recently found out that my great grandmother's parents were uncle and niece. My great grandmother suffered from mental illness and alcoholism. I wonder if the two are related.

Personally, I find the idea pretty squicky. I guess if it *is* consensual and not the result of sexual abuse...whatever floats your boat. It certainly doesn't float mine.

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curiousbear

Makedde, I am not pickin on you too! It is just that I want to understood WHY. I too dont feel sexually attracted towards blood related people. But dont know why.

Skizziks, I think Ratbastid has answered.
And I know a friend who had three cross-cousins. In my society cross-cousin marriage is preferred. But in his case they were all brought up in the same house as the girls lost thier father very young. When they grew up there was lot of pressure to my friend to marry one of the cousins. But he refused saying he doesnt find them attractive and rather feel like a brother to them. That time I could accept and understand his feeling so perfectly.

This example tells that even when adopted brothers/sisters are brough up together chances are rare that they will find each other attractive. Now we cannot take EXCEPTIONS as a general case.
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 05 : 15 : 35-----
If we manage to find statistics how many % of people in earth should have slept only with one partner in thier life?

When you talk about monogamy of human, are you taking about marriage or sex/affair/etc? And there is this PORN, SOFT SWAP, ONLINE FUN all that helps to contain the so called HUMAN MONOGAMY!

I cannot compare human's monogamy with certain animals/birds that live with only one partner through out thier life

Again if you are talking about INCEST, even the non monogamous social animals AVOID it.

Makedde

Adopted brother and sister, while not biologically related, should not be in a relationship together, IMO. Growing up with someone for so many years, then suddenly finding them attractive? I can't understand that. However, the fact they are not biologically related doesn't make their relationship wrong. They are not blood relations.

Remember Woody Allen? He married his adopted daughter. The two are not biologically related, but the whole relationship is still pretty sick all the same.

I don't know. I have no answer for that question. As I said previously, I have no problem with biologically related relatives having a sexual relationship, provided that relationship does not produce children, and that the relationship is not broadcast to the world. An incestuous relationship should be kept quiet - the threat of violence is reaction is very real.

I think it's a social thing. I think we are brought up to believe that sex with a relative is taboo, something never to be discussed. As for the possibility if being 'hard wired' well, I guess that fails in some people. Perhaps those in sexual relationships with a biological relative were raised differently. I wonder if any studies have been conducted on this.

I don't know why I feel disgust at the thought of incestuous relationships, eithor. I don't understand why some people see nothing wrong with it. The only argument I have against it is that it can cause harm to society, especially if there are children involved. Incest is not something that should be promoted.

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Sun flames and moons glow, timeless the tides will flow, what will I face, what will be mine, fortune and fate the other side...

curiousbear

If it is a social thing, why so many animals in wild AVOID incest?

If it is an instinct (wired thing) why does it fail in some? And why majority like or at least DONT refrain from incest erotica?

I and a friend had a conversation about it long ago. When I said after certain age I dont think a brother/sister or father/daughter should be very close physically (cuddling, hugging, kissing, sleeping on ones lap, etc) as it may embarrass one of them or even both all of a sudden. For that he said "No, in fact they should be able to be pretty close physically without any embarrassment". I was never convinced but did not argue with him. Makkede would you like to comment on this?
-----Added 28/9/2008 at 05 : 32 : 34-----
What about nudity without any sexually suggestive actions?

Makedde

That's actually very interesting. I wasn't aware of this. I guess we can't answer that question. Perhaps scientists should study this behavior among animals, to try and discover why some humans are attracted to their biological relatives?

Would we say it's a type of mental illness, or an attraction one has always lived with, like homosexuality, for example?
By incest erotica, do you mean like videos of biological relations taking part in sexual activity? I steer clear from those videos. I don't believe they are true for a second, and the thought that they may be just...I dunno...it's just a natural thing to be turned off, at least for me it is.

Hmm...I wonder what physical contact he believes is acceptable? Kissing, hugging? What type of kissing, what type of hugging? Kissing your parents, and hugging them is fine. We all hug and kiss our parents because we love them. I'd be interested in knowing specifics about this.

I'd feel very awkward being around my parents while naked. I think that's just a natural thing. When you're young, you are not so modest, but when you get older, you get embarrassed to be seen naked by parents, siblings. Your nakedness becomes more 'private'.
For someone to be comforatble naked around their parents, they'd have to have a pretty relaxed point of view, and not be humiliated easily.

I myself would find it awkward, but if others wanted to do it, I wouldn't have a problem with it, although the ages of the people involved would be important.

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Sun flames and moons glow, timeless the tides will flow, what will I face, what will be mine, fortune and fate the other side...

curiousbear

In my family circle bro-sis or father-dauther wont even tough each other. As young i found that normal. I even thought that is better. But certain families they touch each other and kiss. The kiss mostly a peck on cheek. And a teenage daugther may sit on dad's lap in certain communities. I found that awkward and even thought it might take one mishap to cause some embarrassment. Guess you understand.
But my friend that such a embarrassment may never happen between a father and daughter, or brother-sister. He belief is that you will not feel a physical kinky feeling with your daughter or sister no matter how close you are.

Nudists are nude regardless of age/gender. I once asked a nudist wont the boys or men in family get a hard on seeing the women naked? And wont it cause embarrassment? She said it may happen sometimes, they just walk away or hide it and after some time it will just go away...

Tusko

not even the tip?

Coolyo

Having sex with a relative is one of those things that have been ingrained as a bad thing by our society. Kind of like how blacks and women used to be.

I guess you could advocate pro-incest rights, but in the words of Thomas Jefferson, it is "an innovation for which the public is not prepared, nor am I."

Draigan

My dear,


We are all mad. We are barely hanging on by a thread. A lot of people in our society can forsee the entire lid blowing off, and us living, even more so, like a bunch of savages. So we put this thing called law, which would be unneccisary if we werent fucked, into action, to try to stabalize society. If incest were not a law it would lose its taboo nature, and before you know it a lot more people would be making it with their family.

It is proven that having sometihng against the law does reduce its level of existence. So, we have it as a law to reduce the existence of it, and we want to reduce the existence of it because we fear that it will make society even more crazed.

Why will having sex with your brother or sister make you more crazed? Even an animal knows that!

Anyway, thats my theory of the moment.

[EDIT]

I really like to see beliefs being challenged in the name of some logic. Its too easy to say "oh well its just gross." I think this lack of questioning is like an epidemic because I know so many people who just go about doing things based on what they have been told, and it can be detremental. My friend was sobbing to me the other day. It was about her not questioning things and when she finally did question them, she found out that what she was doing was not something she really was into!!

Not that any of you are into incest... Or are you?? Who are you kidding? Bruhahahhahha.

BadNick

...in case my sisters ever see this thread:

Eve...Glor...you chicks are hot!!!

Poppinjay

Kathleen Hanna approved this message.

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Zeraph

Not into it but I think incest is fine. Random strangers can also have serious genetic breeding issues. People breed who shouldn't be, and we don't stop them. They bring children into much worse situations than what inbreeding might cause. So by that logic we should allow incest. Either that, or start policing everyone that breeds. As far as how I feel about it, I would actually like to see breeding programs enforced for the best genetic outcome, but ethically it's probably wrong.

kingtgf

Reply to Levite

RE: god and incest. Re-read the history of Abraham and Isaac - it sort of spoils the thought that god doesn't like incest. (Abraham married his half sister and Isaac his first cousin) The patriarch of the 'chosen people'. And, god doesn't seem to have done anything to punish Lot and/or his daughters for their couple of nights together, except to make their offspring and their descendants scapegoats (as far as the Hebrews were concerned)

Second - from what I've read about recent studies of mitocondrial DNA, the 6.5 + billion of us are descended from possibly as many as twenty individuals dating about 250 thousand years ago. Seems to me that, if we aren't to be totally hypocritical, we (as a race) have a hell of a lot to thank Incest for. (Please excuse the dangling participle!)

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levite

Yeah, there's a fair amount of quasi-incest in Genesis, most of which gets glossed over pretty well. The traditional Jewish Bible commentators (who have, from what I understand, a much more authoritative place in Jewish Biblical scholarship and general conceptions than traditional Christian commentators have in the average Christian study-- at least here in America) have a number of different ways they try to spin it, but one that is most generally repeated-- and which I find the most convincing counter-argument-- is simply that all the Genesis stories take place long before the giving of the Torah.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob lived many hundreds of years before the Exodus, and thus many hundreds of years before God commanded the Jewish people to refrain from incest. Since the only argument that Judaism makes in condemning incest is that God commanded us (Jews) in the Torah to refrain from it, this counter-argument seems to make perfect sense to me.

__________________
Dull sublunary lovers love,
Whose soul is sense, cannot admit
Absence, because it doth remove
That thing which elemented it.

(From "A Valediction: Forbidding Mourning" by John Donne)

smooth

The quotes Jewels posted were how I had learned it in anth classes.
The point you're making, however, that animals avoid it is incorrect. Many animals make no distinction between sex between siblings/offspring. In fact, look back over your examples and you'll note that the animals you listed live within and maintain social hierarchies. The other point you made, that sex among animals is for procreation, is also not accurate. Animals use sex to maintain boundaries, demonstrate dominance, and some even form lifelong bonds. Finally, add in the point that we are mammals ourselves, and it complicates the assumption that only humans have sex for pleasure.

I'd also like to point out that if there was a hereditary component based on protecting genetic traits, we likely wouldn't become physiologically aroused by familial members, we would be less prone to harbor attractions psychologically, and we wouldn't be similarly repulsed by non-blood relatives (assuming transgressing incest taboos repulses you to begin with).

All these things lead me to agree with the claim that incest taboos are primarily social rather than physical prohibitions.

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curiousbear

Yes Incest Taboos are social and found in many other social animals too
I recently learnt about Ants in howstuffworks.com. Seems new queen ants in a colony generally leaves the colony to find a different colony. They mostly create a new colony...

Lindy

So what if it's not logical?? Disgust is an emotion, not some kind of well thought out logical construct. I am disgusted by the very thought of eating raw oysters. So, I must have a logical reason?? Oy!

On the subject of incest, there's a great science fiction short story by Theodore Sturgeon called "If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister?" that explores a whole society (on another planet, of course) where incest is the norm. I'm surprised no has mentioned it. There is an interesting short take on it on Wikipedia.

Lindy

If All Men Were Brothers, Would You Let One Marry Your Sister? - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

stellabella1978

There is a disorder called Genetic Sexual Attraction or GSA that is when there is something wrong chemically between siblings and they pair bond with each other. It can't be helped hormonally, but they should try to resist their urges for the sake of any children because the chances of siblings carrying weak genes and passing them on to a child are greater.

anti fishstick

I think I mentioned this in the other incest thread that was going on but I'll reiterate it here again because I think it's important: even if there is no physical harm by two consenting siblings or other relatives, it CAN do emotional harm. This type of attraction is not healthy. Attachment between family members limits your abilities to form healthy relationships with other people.

Plus, I just learned that the female serial killer, Aileen Wuornos (of Monster fame played by Charlize Theron) had incestual relationships with her brother from early childhood-teenage years. Just saying.

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Amaras

I have a natural repugnance towards incest. I agree that it's probably learnt, not innate.
As a discussion topic it's interesting to see (and feel) how hard it is to not just say:
EEWWWW!
It's kind of like saying, do children have sexual feelings? DO NOT GO THERE, right?

For the rest, I agree with Madame Anti-Fishstickulous above!

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