Native American Wisdom - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

pai mei · 05-29-2008, 02:14 AM

Hi, I found this site :
http://www.greatdreams.com/wisdom.htm

Quote:

The Great Spirit is in all things: he is in the air we breathe. The Great Spirit is our Father, but the earth is our mother. She nourishes us; that which we put into the ground she returns to us

- Big Thunder (Bedagi) Wabanaki Algonquin

"Every part of the earth is sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandy shore, every mist in the dark woods, every meadow, every humming insect. All are holy in the memory and experience of my people.". . . .

Chief Seattle

"There is a road in the hearts of all of us, hidden and seldom traveled, which leads to an unkown, secret place. The old people came literally to love the soil, and they sat or reclined on the ground with a feeling of being close to a mothering power. Their teepees were built upon the earth and their alters were made of earth. The soul was soothing, strengthening, cleasnsing and healing. That is why the old Indian still sits upon the earth instead of propping himself up and away from its life giving forces. For him, to sit or lie upon the ground is to be able to think more deeply and to feel more keenly. He can see more clearly into the mysteries of life and come closer in kinship to other lives about him."

- Chief Luther Standing Bear

The Wise Man believes profoundly in silence - the sign of a perfect equilibrium. Silence is the absolute poise or balance of body, mind and spirit. The man who preserves his selfhood ever calm and unshaken by the storms of existence - not a leaf, as it were, astire on the tree, not a ripple upon the surface of the shinning pool - his, in the mind of the unlettered sage, is the ideal attitude and conduct of life. Silence is the cornerstone of character.

Ohiyesa (Charles Alexander Eastman) - Wahpeton Santee Sioux

"You ask me to plow the ground. Shall I take a knife and tear my mother's bosom? Then when I die she will not take me to her bosom to rest. "You ask me to dig for stones! Shall I dig under her skin for bones? Then when I die I cannot enter her body to be born again. "You ask me to cut grass and make hay and sell it and be rich like white men, but how dare I cut my mother's hair? "I want my people to stay with me here. All the dead men will come to life again. Their spirits will come to their bodies again. We must wait here in the homes of our fathers and be ready to meet them in the bosom of our mother."

Wovoka, Paiute

So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart. Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and Demand that they respect yours. Love your life, perfect your life, Beautify all things in your life. Seek to make your life long and Its purpose in the service of your people. Prepare a noble death song for the day when you go over the great divide. Always give a word or a sign of salute when meeting or passing a friend, Even a stranger, when in a lonely place. Show respect to all people and Bow to none. When you arise in the morning, give thanks for the food and For the joy of living. If you see no reason for giving thanks, The fault lies only in yourself. Abuse no one and nothing, For abuse turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision. When it comes your time to die, be not like those whose hearts Are filled with fear of death, so that when their time comes They weep and pray for a little more time to live their lives over again In a different way. Sing your death song and die like a hero going home."

Tecumseh - Shawnee-(1768-1813)

"Knowledge was inherent in all things. The world was a library and its books were the stones, leaves, grass, brooks and the birds and animals that shared, alike with us, the storms and blessings of the earth. We learn to do what only the student of nature ever learns, and that is to feel beauty. We never rail at the storms, the furious winds, the biting frosts and snows. To do so intensifies human futility, so whatever comes we should adjust ourselves by more effort and energy if necessary, but without complaint. Bright days and dark days are both expressions of the Great Mystery, and the Indian reveled in being close the the Great Holiness."

-Chief Luther Standing Bear

As a child I understood how to give, I have forgotten this grace since I have become civilized.

-Luther Standing Bear, Oglala

They were real people, we are poor compared to them

Look what we the civilized people do in our quest to consume :
http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.p...s/article/2962

Quote:

In a 1927 interview with the magazine Nation’s Business, Secretary of Labor James J. Davis provided some numbers to illustrate a problem that the New York Times called “need saturation.” Davis noted that “the textile mills of this country can produce all the cloth needed in six months’ operation each year” and that 14 percent of the American shoe factories could produce a year’s supply of footwear. The magazine went on to suggest, “It may be that the world’s needs ultimately will be produced by three days’ work a week.”

That is 1927, imagine now. We must take from nature what we need, when you start to take more than you need with the purpose of selling it, you start to destroy everything. Others will buy it even if it's not essential for them, and you will turn nature into money for real.
Right now we have to keep doing that because that is our system. No destruction of the environment - no jobs. Everything looks clean in Europe now, no problem the destruction is happening in the third world countries

Look at the article above, we will destroy ourselves because of our greed. We live like a swarm of locusts and we do not form a real community. Each man for himself. That is why I say they were better than us

lotsofmagnets · 05-29-2008, 05:22 AM

you may be but i´m just fine, thanks

DaveOrion · 05-29-2008, 08:40 AM

Quote:

"When the last tree is cut down, the last fish eaten and the last stream poisoned, you will realize that you cannot eat money." ~ Cree Indian proverb

Truer words were never spoken.

highthief · 05-29-2008, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

They were real people, we are poor compared to them

Why?

The whole "noble savage" thing is a bit overblown, IMO. People are people, no matter their ethnic background.

If I said "whites are better than blacks" I'd probably get banned.

The_Jazz · 05-29-2008, 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

Hi, I found this site :
http://www.greatdreams.com/wisdom.htm

They were real people, we are poor compared to them

The great thing about philosphies is that they make life look so simple and the path to happiness so obvious.

In reality things are much more complex.

Many tribes lived in a permanent state of warfare with their neighbors. There are cases of genocide as well. And the Native American hunted several species into extinction.

Also, you should know by now that you should do more to start conversations. This is little more than a site plug as it is and belongs more in "Found On The Net" than it does here.

Tully Mars · 05-29-2008, 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Many tribes lived in a permanent state of warfare with their neighbors. There are cases of genocide as well. And the Native American hunted several species into extinction.

I didn't know that. Which species?

pai mei · 05-29-2008, 09:59 AM

The_Jazz · 05-29-2008, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I didn't know that. Which species?

The ground sloth. All the species of the mammoth. The Ancient Bison. The giant hutia. All hunted by you-know-who. They're no better or worse than the rest of us. Just the same.

DaveOrion · 05-29-2008, 10:04 AM

I think the point that pai mei was trying to make is that Native Americans lived in harmony with nature. They didn't pollute the land, air, & water that they needed for survival. They may have had tribal wars but they didnt nuke each other or continuously invent new ways of killing each other.

Just watch the evening news and then tell me our way is better.

pai mei · 05-29-2008, 10:06 AM

Wrong I say. The bison disappeared because of the white man. What you talk there is ancient times, at least the Indians were polite enough do die if they hunted the bison to extinction

DaveOrion · 05-29-2008, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

The ground sloth. All the species of the mammoth. The Ancient Bison. The giant hutia. All hunted by you-know-who. They're no better or worse than the rest of us. Just the same.

I dont think there is any real evidence to support this claim. Its also been theorized that the changing climate played a critical role in these species extinction.

The_Jazz · 05-29-2008, 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

Wrong I say. The bison disappeared because of the white man. What you talk there is ancient times, at least the Indians were polite enough do die if they hunted the bison to extinction

Ancient Bison there, genius. It's a different species than what you're referring to.

And baiting a mod that's already told you that your thread doesn't meet the standard for discussion probably wasn't a smart choice, especially when you don't add to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

I dont think there is any real evidence to support this claim. Its also been theorized that the changing climate played a critical role in these species extinction.

Sure, but it's also been theorized that ancient humans - the ancestors of Native Americans - hunted them to extinction, either in conjunction with or independent of the ecological changes.

highthief · 05-29-2008, 10:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

I dont think there is any real evidence to support this claim. Its also been theorized that the changing climate played a critical role in these species extinction.

No actually, there is a ton of evidence to suggest that man was largely responsible for this. There had been many climatic shifts, some very extreme, prior to the arrival of the first Americans. The mammoths, big cats, and so on survived these climate changes. Yet within a few hundred years of man's arrival, the American mega-fauna was gone.

The same thing happened in Australia, Madagascar, and various islands all over the world. Native Americans, Aboriginals, Polynesians - they've all hunted species to extinction, many of them have brought ecological catastrophes upon themselves.

Tim Flannery is one author who writes on this subject.

The_Jazz · 05-29-2008, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

I think the point that pai mei was trying to make is that Native Americans lived in harmony with nature. They didn't pollute the land, air, & water that they needed for survival. They may have had tribal wars but they didnt nuke each other or continuously invent new ways of killing each other.

Just watch the evening news and then tell me our way is better.

Then he should have said that. As it stands, he's made no point. Just posted a wall of text.

As far as they didn't pollute? Really? Because I have a neighbor from my childhood that's made quite a living out of their garbage dumps and graffiti. Both of those qualify as pollution. They may not have polluted on the SCALE that we do, but they most definitely polluted.

In re: killing each other, allow me to introduce you to the Aztecs, who founded an entire civilization on killing and enslaving each other. And the Cherokee weren't quite as bloodthirsty, but they worked the same way.

DaveOrion · 05-29-2008, 10:21 AM

And the Mayan & Aztec civilizations are now gone: one theory is that the enslaved population revolted against the rich hierarchy who was ill prepared for changes in climate resulting in crop failures and lack of fresh water. Along with the Spanish conquistadors seeking riches........

Odd how history tends to repeat itself.........

The_Jazz · 05-29-2008, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveOrion

And the Mayan & Aztec civilizations are now gone: one theory is that the enslaved population revolted against the rich hierarchy who was ill prepared for changes in climate resulting in crop failures and lack of fresh water. Along with the Spanish conquistadors seeking riches........

Odd how history tends to repeat itself.........

So we agree that Native Americans weren't any different than we are except for the scale of technology? Cool.

pai mei · 05-29-2008, 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

And baiting a mod that's already told you that your thread doesn't meet the standard for discussion probably wasn't a smart choice, especially when you don't add to it.

I did add , see the post I wrote before the one with the bison photograph

The_Jazz · 05-29-2008, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pai mei

I did add , see the post I wrote before the one with the bison photograph

Next time add it to your OP, or risk having your thread closed. Again, you know better. Your "addition" shouldn't come in Post #7. It should be in Post #1. Do I really have to go through the trouble of showing you the Thread Primer for 5th or 6th time or should we just expect low quality OP's out of you?

pai mei · 05-29-2008, 11:46 PM

Ok I moved it to the first post. Here is what I found today, all is not lost if there are humans like this

http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/

Pacifier · 05-30-2008, 01:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

So we agree that Native Americans weren't any different than we are except for the scale of technology? Cool.

No primitive culture were different than we are, they all tried to use the easy way, get as much as possible to secure surviving. Our Problem today is, that our impact is much bigger than it was back then. The Polynesians killed the Birds of a bunch of island, we can do much worse.The solution is not to go back to some "golden primitive age" but to think about new ways of living and new technology.

I also suggest to read Jared Diamond

The_Jazz · 05-30-2008, 04:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pacifier

No primitive culture were different than we are, they all tried to use the easy way, get as much as possible to secure surviving. Our Problem today is, that our impact is much bigger than it was back then. The Polynesians killed the Birds of a bunch of island, we can do much worse.The solution is not to go back to some "golden primitive age" but to think about new ways of living and new technology.

I also suggest to read Jared Diamond

Again, the only difference is scale of technology and efficiency. If the ancient Native Americans could have figured out a way to set up a beef processing system the likes of which exists in Midwestern America today, you better believe that they would have done it. If they had knowledge of the chemicals designed to produce higher crop yields, religion would have been altered to accomodate their use.

Humans haven't lived in "harmony" with nature since they discovered fire - and lost control of it soon afterwards.

Tully Mars · 05-30-2008, 05:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

The ground sloth. All the species of the mammoth. The Ancient Bison. The giant hutia. All hunted by you-know-who. They're no better or worse than the rest of us. Just the same.

Interesting, did not know that.

roachboy · 05-30-2008, 05:17 AM

i dont see the point of this discussion to the extent that it has been derailed onto something about whether one rationality is "better" than another--i don't see what is at stake in it, why it is interesting. the euro-rationality was predicated on agricultural production and private property--capitalism came later. most native american rationalities were centered on patterns that did not include notions of private property. there are basically different sets of possibilitilies for interaction with the environment that follow from the presence or absence of private property, and both have consequences--for example, in the n.a. cases the question of scale (at the level of population, say) was settled in one direction, while the euro-rationality opened onto other possibilities of scale, eventually. once you segue into capitalism, things diverge more radically--for the n.a. groups (in general) the environment was integrated into the ways of thinking and being in the world--there was no particular separation--which is entirely logical---and for capitalism, the environment is an abstraction, land here interchangeable with land there--and this has some advantages (it enables production to unfold on a scale not possible within other relations to the environment) but also some very significant disadvantages--the rendering abstract of nature as a "resource" entails an erasure of the consequences of production--extraction of "natural resources" combined with the idea that nature is an abstraction (and an endlessly available one at that, a gift from some god) opens onto a discounting of the consequences of extraction---so if you run out of shit in one place, you just go to another--and it doesn't necessarily matter, the shambles you leave behind. this is basically different, and if you want to play the game set into motion in the op, it makes some sense to try to focus the conversation on specific aspects of difference at this kind of level rather than get locked into some bizarre-o "debate" about whether native americans or white folk are "better" one than the other.

and it is simply not the case that the history of capitalism follows necessarily from its rationality, or that the rationality is not itself the result of processes, and so a construction in a sense---so for example the single most important development under capitalism which explains the acceleration of population growth, which puts increasing pressure on production, which grinds the rationality shaping productions closer and closer to its limits, is the fixing of nitrogen and the development of nitrogen-based fertilizers--this more than the ability to move meat from one end of the country to another by rail, for example.

and this last point refers back to the problem of the thread itself--it is entirely ahistorical--but you can't talk about any of this stuff in an ahistorical manner because what it's about is nothing but history.

enough of this for the moment.

Pacifier · 05-30-2008, 05:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Again, the only difference is scale of technology and efficiency. If the ancient Native Americans could have figured out a way to set up a beef processing system the likes of which exists in Midwestern America today, you better believe that they would have done it.

100% agree, that what I was trying to say

An other factor besides the scale of technology and efficiency is the sheer number of people living today.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Humans haven't lived in "harmony" with nature since they discovered fire - and lost control of it soon afterwards.

I don't think any creature lives in "harmony" with nature, if you put 6 billion elephants in the african steppe they would trample all plants without a thought about harmony. The observed "harmony" is just an effect of natural balance and all creatures are working hard against it. We just managed to get an advantage because of our technology.

Seer666 · 06-05-2008, 06:33 AM

All them words of wisdom and he forgot the most important. Don't take blankets from strangers...

desal75 · 06-05-2008, 01:40 PM

I'm sorry to jump in on this topic which seems a little derailed but some of the posters make good points.

The Native Americans lived in harmony with nature just like any other non industrialized society has. They did not have sufficient means to change the environment around them so they adapted to it. When they could control the circumstances they did.

The Iroquois Indians that lived (and still do) in the area that I am in cultivated quite a bit of farmland. To do this I am sure that they needed to cut down standing timber to clear crop land. Two of their most common hunting methods involved entire villages driving dear into the center of a large fence shaped like a V by using fire and loud noises where the dear were then shot. The other involved the same driving technique but into a body of water where hunters in small boats would stab them in the lungs.

Hardly the image of the loan brave silently stalking through the woods that we all grew up with.

All societies have their good points and bad. Those very same Iroquois had some ideas used in our own Constitution but they also committed genocide on the Erie tribe that proceeded them.

There's no black and white. No super villains and super heroes in the real world.

AKR · 06-23-2008, 09:39 PM

Some of you say that the native american culture is better than ours because they didn't pollute, mass murder, etc. I would disagree with this. When white man first found native peoples, they were not as advanced. This is because white tribes settled down into stationary colonies at a earlier period of time than the native americans. The natives, for a much longer period of time, lived as nomads, and the nomadic culture leaves little room for a high rate of innovation. Early white tribes had nature-oriented, mainstream-moral beliefs as well. However, you will notice that Europe and Asia is much closer to Africa, as far as linked land goes, than North and South America. I believe that if the native tribes were left to themselves for a longer period of time, they would end up much like us. They're no different than we are, save in physical appearance.

05-29-2008, 05:22 AM	#2 (permalink)
lotsofmagnets Upright Location: reykjavík, iceland	you may be but i´m just fine, thanks __________________ mother nature made the aeroplane, and the submarine sandwich, with the steady hands and dead eye of a remarkable sculptor. she shed her mountain turning training wheels, for the convenience of the moving sidewalk, that delivers the magnetic monkey children through the mouth of impossible calendar clock, into the devil's manhole cauldron. physics of a bicycle, isn't it remarkable?

05-29-2008, 09:59 AM	#7 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	-- __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game" Last edited by pai mei; 05-29-2008 at 10:48 PM..

05-29-2008, 10:04 AM	#9 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I think the point that pai mei was trying to make is that Native Americans lived in harmony with nature. They didn't pollute the land, air, & water that they needed for survival. They may have had tribal wars but they didnt nuke each other or continuously invent new ways of killing each other. Just watch the evening news and then tell me our way is better. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

05-29-2008, 10:06 AM	#10 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Wrong I say. The bison disappeared because of the white man. What you talk there is ancient times, at least the Indians were polite enough do die if they hunted the bison to extinction __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

05-29-2008, 10:21 AM	#15 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	And the Mayan & Aztec civilizations are now gone: one theory is that the enslaved population revolted against the rich hierarchy who was ill prepared for changes in climate resulting in crop failures and lack of fresh water. Along with the Spanish conquistadors seeking riches........ Odd how history tends to repeat itself......... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

05-29-2008, 11:46 PM	#19 (permalink)
pai mei Insane	Ok I moved it to the first post. Here is what I found today, all is not lost if there are humans like this http://www.ski-epic.com/amsterdam_bicycles/ __________________ Blog One day there will be so many houses, that people will be bored and will go live in tents. "Why are you living in tents ? Are there not enough houses ?" "Yes there are, but we play this Economy game"

05-30-2008, 05:17 AM	#23 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i dont see the point of this discussion to the extent that it has been derailed onto something about whether one rationality is "better" than another--i don't see what is at stake in it, why it is interesting. the euro-rationality was predicated on agricultural production and private property--capitalism came later. most native american rationalities were centered on patterns that did not include notions of private property. there are basically different sets of possibilitilies for interaction with the environment that follow from the presence or absence of private property, and both have consequences--for example, in the n.a. cases the question of scale (at the level of population, say) was settled in one direction, while the euro-rationality opened onto other possibilities of scale, eventually. once you segue into capitalism, things diverge more radically--for the n.a. groups (in general) the environment was integrated into the ways of thinking and being in the world--there was no particular separation--which is entirely logical---and for capitalism, the environment is an abstraction, land here interchangeable with land there--and this has some advantages (it enables production to unfold on a scale not possible within other relations to the environment) but also some very significant disadvantages--the rendering abstract of nature as a "resource" entails an erasure of the consequences of production--extraction of "natural resources" combined with the idea that nature is an abstraction (and an endlessly available one at that, a gift from some god) opens onto a discounting of the consequences of extraction---so if you run out of shit in one place, you just go to another--and it doesn't necessarily matter, the shambles you leave behind. this is basically different, and if you want to play the game set into motion in the op, it makes some sense to try to focus the conversation on specific aspects of difference at this kind of level rather than get locked into some bizarre-o "debate" about whether native americans or white folk are "better" one than the other. and it is simply not the case that the history of capitalism follows necessarily from its rationality, or that the rationality is not itself the result of processes, and so a construction in a sense---so for example the single most important development under capitalism which explains the acceleration of population growth, which puts increasing pressure on production, which grinds the rationality shaping productions closer and closer to its limits, is the fixing of nitrogen and the development of nitrogen-based fertilizers--this more than the ability to move meat from one end of the country to another by rail, for example. and this last point refers back to the problem of the thread itself--it is entirely ahistorical--but you can't talk about any of this stuff in an ahistorical manner because what it's about is nothing but history. enough of this for the moment. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-05-2008, 06:33 AM	#25 (permalink)
Seer666 Oh dear God he breeded Location: Arizona	All them words of wisdom and he forgot the most important. Don't take blankets from strangers... __________________ Bad spellers of the world untie!!! I am the one you warned me of I seem to have misplaced the bullet with your name on it, but I have a whole box addressed to occupant.

06-05-2008, 01:40 PM	#26 (permalink)
desal75 Psycho Location: Western New York	I'm sorry to jump in on this topic which seems a little derailed but some of the posters make good points. The Native Americans lived in harmony with nature just like any other non industrialized society has. They did not have sufficient means to change the environment around them so they adapted to it. When they could control the circumstances they did. The Iroquois Indians that lived (and still do) in the area that I am in cultivated quite a bit of farmland. To do this I am sure that they needed to cut down standing timber to clear crop land. Two of their most common hunting methods involved entire villages driving dear into the center of a large fence shaped like a V by using fire and loud noises where the dear were then shot. The other involved the same driving technique but into a body of water where hunters in small boats would stab them in the lungs. Hardly the image of the loan brave silently stalking through the woods that we all grew up with. All societies have their good points and bad. Those very same Iroquois had some ideas used in our own Constitution but they also committed genocide on the Erie tribe that proceeded them. There's no black and white. No super villains and super heroes in the real world. __________________ The Man in Black fled across the desert and the Gunslinger followed.

06-23-2008, 09:39 PM	#27 (permalink)
AKR Upright	Some of you say that the native american culture is better than ours because they didn't pollute, mass murder, etc. I would disagree with this. When white man first found native peoples, they were not as advanced. This is because white tribes settled down into stationary colonies at a earlier period of time than the native americans. The natives, for a much longer period of time, lived as nomads, and the nomadic culture leaves little room for a high rate of innovation. Early white tribes had nature-oriented, mainstream-moral beliefs as well. However, you will notice that Europe and Asia is much closer to Africa, as far as linked land goes, than North and South America. I believe that if the native tribes were left to themselves for a longer period of time, they would end up much like us. They're no different than we are, save in physical appearance.