Duck2Day

I don't know how much everyone knows about him but I think he was just more then an excellent martial artist. He was a great philosopher and thinker too, haha does anyone second me on that?

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CSflim

perhaps this would be better off in the Tilted Nonsense board?

EDIT: Eeerrrk..appologies for my rashness. Didn't realise you were being serious... ignorant me!

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Cynthetiq

Duck2Day,

maybe you can give some examples of his philosophies and approaches to life so that people can discuss them. Otherwise there's no real way to have a conversation about Bruce Lee to the uninitiated.

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rockzilla

I wouldn't call him a great philosopher any more than I'd call Aristotle a great fighter. He was a lot smarter, and did a lot more for martial arts than anyone else since though. The ideas behind his Jeet Kune Do style showed little to no reliance on forms or patterns, saying something along the lines of "set patterns, incapable of adaptability only offer a better cage, truth is outside all patterns" or "my truth isn't your truth, your truth isn't my truth" or, what works for you won't necessarily work for me. No doubt he was a very smart, innovative man, but don't expect to see his name in any philosophy textbooks.

rogue49

I agree here...
many of us, even those who have studied or taught martial arts, such as myself
have not had the chance to look more in depth into Bruce Lee's teachings.
If you could expound on this and give us some of your viewpoints & input,
then we might have a better basis in which to discuss it with you.

And in turn we would be able to get a new idea of how he thought
and how it relates to us.

forgotten_dream

Philosophy no. Darwinism maybe---
Apparently he was a punk kid who picked fights all the time, so he got real fast growing up.
So... Conflict makes you stronger? (Even if you create it yourself )

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Sun Tzu

Bruce has authored many books, mostly small instruction type booklets, but his most widely known is Tao of Jeet Kune Do. Of the areas I’ve studied; the Eastern philosophies such as Zen and Taoism seem so simple yet so complex. Its kind of the way I see the world and our existence: what we as humans need to do to all live in peace and harmony united together in this world is really very simple; yet so very complex (almost to the point (or pointlessness) that its impossible. Bruce Lee graduated from University of Washington where he majored in philosophy. Much earlier before this his spiritual understanding stems from the Shaolin teachings. To understand a lot of what Bruce was saying; a grasp of Zen teachings as well as Taoism would provide a start.

Bruce was a true master, but I think his journey was cut short before even he had a chance to complete his own study if life. My theory of his death comes from the Chinese teachings of the body’s meridians. His “fire” element was on a constant rise, even when relaxed, I think that led to his undoing.

This is my basic extremely generalized interpretation of what I know and continue to learn about Sifu Bruce Lee’s teachings:

Jeet Kune Do translates to: “way of intercepting fist”

Have you ever went into a dojo and saw a black belt that was extremely fat, looked out of shape, and generally carried a persona of one that really didn’t care to much for their physical being; yet they had a black belt stretched across their waist? On a basic level he felt if your training to defend yourself it should be done as though one was training for an Olympic event. That’s obviously hardcore for most; unless you’re a cage fighter. He felt that the spiritual aspect that so many systems invoke into their training (such as what I had when I trained in Kenpo) should be the very last aspect of teachings. Physical development and the beginning level of body mastery should be first and foremost.

A large percentage of classical systems train through memorization of predetermined movements based on theory of what the physical reaction to action of an opponent will do. One aspect of katas address this (there are other benefits behind them). This predetermined system of training is usually combined with a controlled setting where light sparring is initiated; most of which the basic physics of the classical training is never seen. Bruce saw extreme weakness in this way of thinking and caused great animosity in the martial arts community towards him because of it.

To shorten this up and to get to the point; Bruce along with his great friend a fellow martial artist; Sifu Dan Inosanto developed a mentality and training philosophy that focused on developing physical attributes as opposed to memorizing systems of predetermined movements and techniques. They understood that attributes were the very elements that MADE the techniques work. Aspects of ability such as timing, speed, special relationship, sensitivity, power, flexibility, aerobic/anaerobic threshold, strength, reflexes, hand eye coordination, and killer instinct where each addressed as equally important entities. Both together as well as singularly. An example of training in the Jeet Kun Do philosophy would be lifting weights. Outside of all the other attributes; strength was being singled out. In fact on a limited scale boxers and muay Thai boxers train Jeet Kun Do more closely than 80% of the classical systems of horse stances and reverse punches.

What is life? To me it’s a series of never ending obstacles that we overcome and continually learn from (well hopefully). These could be relationships, money problems, health, self-purpose, etc. The overwhelming feeling that can sometimes happen may be easier to deal with by breaking down the development of attributes that it would take to empower one to achieve harmony. Attributes can mean many things, all of which supercede the very human ones I mentioned here. As he believed the physical mastery was only the beginning, but “Fist” represents so much more than a physical fist.

I know I jumped a huge distance there, but I don’t want to take up several pages that might bore everyone, and I’m only a novice that could offer what he “thinks”

Some books I think are of great reading that flow similar as Tao of Jeet Kune Do are:

Book of Five Rings: Miyamoto Musashi

Tao Te Ching (The way of life): Lau Tzu

The Art of War: Sun Tzu

Writings of Confucius


Im sure most who visit this thread had read one if not all of these though.

CSfilm maybe the health and fitness board at the most, but definitely not the nonsense board. Bruce’s teachings have a lot to offer.



We are all climbing different paths through the mountain of life
And we have all experienced much hardship and strife.
There are many paths through the mountain of life
And some climbs can be felt like the point of a knife.
Some paths are short, and others are long;
Who can say which path is right or wrong?
The beauty of truth is that each path has its own song
And if you listen closely, you will find where you belong.
So climb your path true and strong
But respect all other truths, for your way for them could be wrong.
-Dan Inosanto

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Ch'i

I have studied Bruce Lee very much, and wish to post to give you a small idea of his ideas and philosphy. I'll use alot of his own words to give you a better idea of who he was.

WARNING: Long Post

"I feel I have this great creative and spiritual force within me that is greater than faith, greater than ambition, greater than confidence, greater than determination, greater than vision. It is all of these combined. My brain becomes magnetized with this dominating force which I hold in my hand." - Bruce Lee

On Fighting/Physical Fitness...


Bruce Lee was famous for his phisical abilities for a reason; here's a List of some of his "feats of strength." (None of these are exaggerations)

•Bruce Lee's striking speed from 60cm away was five hundredths of a second.
•Bruce did one-hand push ups using only 2 fingers
•Bruce was able to break a 70 kg (154 lbs) bag with a sidekick.
•Bruce was able to hold a 57 kg (125 lbs) barbell at arms length in front of him (with elbows locked) for several seconds.
•Bruce could peirce an unopened coke can with his finger

Bruce Lee worked on balance, speed, and strength. The scary part is that he was not only increadibly strong, he knew how to use it. Most martial artists don't realize that proper technique can inflict much more power than stength alone. During his training sessions it was common to see him side-kick a 200 lbs bag and see it slap the ceiling.
"Telegraphing" a movement/strike is when an indication is sent of your next move; if you are about to punch you might pull your other shoulder back, or widen your eyes, ext. Bruce not only knew how to see these signs, he was keen & fast enough to counter them immedeately. He himself would commonly practice in front of a mirror to work on "non-telegraphing" his own movements, making his speedy movements even harder to counter.
He also studied ways of throwing off the oppenent, such as moving with broken rhythm.

Words from some of his training partners/students...
Jesse Glover:
Joe Lewis:
Leo Fong:
James Rage
Bruce Lee, toward the end of his life, had actually reached a point where he could no longer spar with anyone; they simply couln't take his punches and kicks.

On Jeet Kun Do...

"Using no way, as way. Having no limitation, as limitation.

Many people today completely misunderstand Jeet Kun Do. The ideas behind JKD are fluid and always growing, making it nothing like a style. Bruce believed that true mastery trancended art.
On Philosophy...
One day in early 1970 he loaded up the bar with 135 pounds (his bodyweight at the time)for Good Mornings and, without a warm up, proceeded to do eight repetitions. On his last repitition he felt a "pop" and found out later that he had damaged the fourth sacral nerve of his lower back. The result was that Lee had to endure incredible back pain for the remainder of his life. During his confinment to bead, however, Bruce not only developed his ideas behind jeet kun do, but studied philosphy constantly. He loved the idea of "self strength", and relying on one's self.

Bruce Lee was truly an inspiration both as a martial artist and a philosopher. He completely devoted himself to his training, and his philosophy. And more importantly, he applied those thoughts and ideas.


Sources: www.mikementzer.com, "Bruce Lee's Commentary on the Martial Way" Volume Three, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bruce_Lee, personal research

Zeraph

"Bruce Lee, toward the end of his life, had actually reached a point where he could no longer spar with anyone; they simply couln't take his punches and kicks."

That's either a lie or worded wrong. Maybe no one was a challenge for him? That I could see, but the better one gets in martial arts the better control one has. So as he was getting better he would have gotten better at sparring, not worse. One never goes full power in sparring, otherwise it wouldn't be sparring. So the above quoted statement makes no sense.

Willravel

As someone who's devoted his life to martial arts, it makes perfect sense. What use would sparing be if you heald back? Would you want to hold back in a real fight? The point of sparing is to come as close to fighting as possible so that when the time comes you are able to give 100%. If you only give 20% in sparing matches, it would be more difficult to reach 100% when necessary. I'm sure Bruce Lee could hold himself back, but why would he want to? Holding yourself back is a terrific waste of time. I ran into similar problems at martial arts schools. They do something called 'point sparing'. No full contact. You give them love taps on the stomach, or the arms, or the chest (but never the head!). And guess how well people who learn point sparing do in real fights. They generally get one good punch in, then get their asses kicked.

Ch'i

I apologize. Let me rephrase to be more precise.

George Lee (no relation) built special training equiptment for Bruce by request. He built a dummy connected to a cable that ran the length of Bruce's backyard so he could hit it as hard as he wanted, and to simulate a more realistic opponent.
They also had to reinforce his Wing Chun wooden dummy with car parts.

Zeraph

I'll just say I strongly disagree and leave it at that, because I can see I'll never change your mind and just end up insulting your instructor(s).

Ok, I have to say one thing though, there's no such thing as full contact sparring in martial arts...just think about it.

Ch'i

I won't be insulted, I enjoy discussing things like this.

I'll have to apologize yet again. Let me rephrase.

Willravel

There are many gyms and jodos that practice full contact sparring. It is commonplace in schools thar have not been taken over by small children. They are less prevelant now than they were durring Bruce Lee's time, but they certianally exist. Kung Le's school would probably be a good example of a school that allows full contact sparring.

Zeraph

Oh not you, Ch'i. I meant willravel. He's h4rdc0r3 or something...

That would be a more accurate way to put it though.

We either mean something very different by "sparring" or you've been had. No other way to put it. Show me a school with "full contact sparring" and I'll show you a fake school.

Your not in "ninjitsu" are you?

Willravel

I wasnt hard core when I had my nasal bone (the part above the cartilage) cracked durring a sparring match. My eyes teared up and I sneezed for about a half an hour. Here's the thing: nothing will ever teach me to move my head like the memory of a full contact left jab. Also, since I understand the process, I won't be as afraid or confused if it happens again. Compare that to point sparring, when you have someone weakly punch at your torso. What kind of experience can that possibly give you?

Ch'i

Oh thought you were talking to me. Either way though I encourage discussion. My original post was an attempt to breathe some life back into this thread. Seeing people ask questions like...
...that went unanswered was kind of sad. I don't know if "expert" is the right term, but I certainly can answer alot of questions about his philosophy (what it means to me at least), martial art, and phisical ability. I studied him thoroughly because he once said that "my martial art is something that no serious martial artist can ignor." and I believe that to be true about many of his other aspects.

Zeraph

I havn't mentioned or advocated point sparring. Though I must point out that the point of point (heh) sparring is to teach you something else.

And, no offense to you personally, but your instructor sounds like an asshole (see? now I'm insulting your instructor) but I suppose if you want to destroy your body so you can ironically protect it, go for it.

If you know something about martial arts let's hear your opinion on sparring then.

Willravel

Yes, of course, but when it comes to teaching you about the reality of being in a fight, point sparing falls short. It must be combined with actual experience.
I'm sure he wouldn't mind you calling him that, and I don't either. He could be a real dick, but he did manage to teach me quite a bit. I am confident that if I wanted to defend myself in an emergency I could do well against most people (I have no illusions about always winning or being able to dodge bullits or anything, but if I were, say, mugged, I could defend myself from an unarmed man or a man with a knife). Ironically, I'm a pacifist now, so I won't be defending myself, but the training is there if I ever change my mind.

Also, my nose is perfect for glasses now.

Bruce Lee was a legendary martial artist, a good philosopher, and a fun actor. Kudos to him.

Ch'i

Well sparring, in general, is a tool to teach students what it feels like to use their body in a fight, and to apply what they learn in the dojo. Everytime I conduct a sparring class, for the inexperienced, I emphasize the importance of control, precision, and balance; it is very important that a student learn these things before they move on, for these, as Bruce Lee so eloquently put, are the roots. It is also important to keep it light because the inexperienced student seldom has good control of the power placed into a strike, and the other not used to being hit. All in all, it is a great tool to teach with.
Sparring for the advanced student is different, however. Wearing some protective gear, they engage in sparring using the full amount of power they can, or hitting the other guy as hard as they want/can. This is commonly called "full contact sparring." At my dojo, students can only participate in this when I, or another instructor, see that they have adaquate skill to do so. Normally we have a test wherein they spar one of the instructors. Full contact sparring gives the student a chance to get a feel for hitting another human being and being hit in return; striking an actual person is much different from hitting targets, and bags. It also allows them to develop their reflexes and learn from their mistakes.
It really is one of the best training methods you can employ.

Zeraph

Ah, see to me full contact means no protective gear, and going full strength/speed. I also come from a bit of breaks, chokes, and throws so going full contact would mean KOs and broken bones.

Willravel

I always had on protective gear. Without it, I agree it would be far too dangerous (espically against Bruce Lee).

Ch'i

Yes, that is something that most schools won't do anymore unfortunately. Since around 5-10 years ago the amount of precaution has sky-rocketed. It used to be shirtless with a mouthpiece, that was it. I've personally seen some of the causes of these rules to be put in place, and I don't agree with them. Parents are sending their child(ren) to take martial arts, but still want them to be safe. Parents are turning martial arts into a sport. They want their kids to be safe, so their petitions for saftey gear inevitably were put in place. Now, at most dojo's (more like schools now), I feel an atmosphere of "soccermom's dropping their kid off at TKD while they go shop." They don't realize that they are completely subverting the idea of martial arts. Back when Bruce Lee trained this kind of thing hadn't emerged yet, so his definition of full contact sparring intailed no gear whatsoever, full speed/strength, many broken bones, and KO's.

Zeraph

I agree with you then, I suppose I should have figured you meant with protective gear. I feel dumb now Then again not all MA focuses on strikes, and there ain't no pads for armbars.

I agree with you Ch'i about turning MA into a sport problem. Especially 12 year old black belts... I think we (I suppose there is no "we", I guess I mean MA in America) should abolish the belt system altogether. It's a silly system in the first place, anyone you train with will know how skilled you are.

Ch'i

Yeah, the belt system, for most schools now, means you've been training a certain amount of time, have preformed a few douzen forms, and have payed a certain amount of money. Saying your a blackbelt today is almost a joke, depending on the school. Bruce Lee once said...
...and I really couldn't agree more.
If you look hard enough, though, you can still find places that truly practice martial arts. They are a dying breed...

Willravel

Hey, don't sweat it. If I had a nickel every time some 14 year old kid went on the internet and lied his ass off about having experience in something, I would be able to finally fund that gold covered mission to Pluto that's fueled by diamonds I've been talking about. Luckly, I'm not one of said 14 year olds.
Limit the amount of black belts there can be by percentage. If only the top 4% of martial artist (based on sparring, forms, creativity/adaptability, and dicipline) can be black belts, then it might give the term meaning. A 12 year old black belt, to me, is like a 12 year old general. It's a joke.

jorgelito

Hey Ch'i, thanks for taking the time to post all this great info. And thanks to Will and Zeraph for the great (and civil) discussion, I really enjoyed it.

I always understood full-contact (in the training, organized sense) to mean with protective gear. I like it alot. It is a much better "workout" and more importantly, gives you a sense of how draining or tiring fighting can be. The two times I did it (that's another story if anyone's interested - Full-contact jujitsu and krav maga when I was in Israel a couple of weeks ago) I was winded in about a minute of striking and kicking my buddy at full strength. It was instructive as the instructor could point out the flaws in your form (punches and kicks). GOing full strength allows you to feel it too, the incorectness. The first time I did it, I felt awkward and counterintuitive. It was like, why am I fighting my friend (at full strength)? We were tentative because we were afraid of hurting each other. But the protective gear and practice took care of that. Also, full-contact allows you to get a feel for being hit. I lost my balance alot and got knocked down a few times. But because of the full-contact and instructive nature, I was able to adapt and change my stance/form etc.

Oh yeah, Bruce Lee has always been one of my heroes, truly a remarkable man. Here's some new info about his legacy. http://www.latimes.com/entertainment...-entertainment

Ch'i

I can assure you the pleasure is mine. Bruce Lee's teachings have taught me alot, and I feel great sharing that with anyone who wants to listen.

Thanks for the great article, I like the sound of that 40 part documentary.

Sun Tzu

Speaking of harsh instructors, if you havent already seen this check this "master" out- this video has sound so if you have speakers turn them on.

*It is not in english

http://www.filecabi.net/video/kungfu-teacher.html

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To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking

Ch'i

Wow. If an instructor ever did that in my class I would confront him, and tell him to leave. I am perfectly O.K. with instructors making the class hard, but that's rediculous. I'd throw him out.

Willravel

Either that or beat him with olive branches until he bleeds, then pee on him. That's how you take someone's power.

Ch'i

More Bruce Lee quotes; thought I'd put in some humorous ones.


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Good ol' modest Bruce... (at least he knows when he's right)

cybersharp

I agree, long long ago, when older members of my family they where totaly more brutal and capable of maiming or killing than almost anything blackbelt I have seen since.

I recall the first dojo I went to as a child to study at. The standard was not only that you memorize the name and style and technique that was being taught. But that you train pretty much non-stop, in the use of impementing weapons into combat as well. I remember losing control of my muscels in one of the sessions, was one of the most intense times in my life.

On the other hand, years later I went to a dojo, and well my complete impression was that it was a joke. Even without any practice at all when I started I could easily beat anyone that they put against me from that group. And I never had a hope of reaching blackbelt at that place..

As reference, the instructer that I had from the begining was shutdown because his training methods where veiwed as dangerous and to severe. (it was a small town). And people didnt agree with how hard he pushed people.

Also for the topic.... I agree in Bruce Lee's philosophy because it corrasponds with mine so well as a athlete. The only bonds and restraints that should may be implemented are those that you place on yourself, and there is always room for getting better.

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pai mei

"The void is no mere emptiness, but is real, free and existing. It is the source from which all things arise and return. It cannot be seen, touched or known, yet it exists and is freely used. It has no shape, size, colour or form, and yet all that we see, hear, feel and touch is "it". It is beyond intellectual knowing and cannot be grasped by the ordinary mind. When we suddenly awake to the realization that there is no barrier, and has never been seen, one realizes that one is all things, mountains, rivers, grasses, trees, sun, moon, stars, universe are all oneself. There is no longer a division or barrier between myself and others, no longer any feeling of alienation or fear. Realizing this, results in true compassion. Other people and things are not seen as apart from oneself, on the contrary, as one's own body."

Bruce Lee

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