"They" don't hate us... they believe almost the same thing: - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Willravel · 03-08-2008, 09:05 PM

The Muslim Jesus

Above is a video explaining in reasonable detail how Jesus Christ is interpreted in the Qur'an and how he is perceived by Muslims. I've posted it in philosophy because I don't want this to turn into something about Iran vs. US or getting our of Iraq or Israel vs. Palestine; no, this is simply about bridging a phantom gap between Christianity and Islam. This is a gap much smaller than I think people realize.

Please enjoy, and I hope you'll discuss what you think about the video and it's philosophical implications.

Baraka_Guru · 03-08-2008, 09:38 PM

Birth:

And she (Mary) who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the nations.

—Qur'an, 21:91

And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs

—Qur'an, 23:50

When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead.

—Sahih Bukhari, 4:54:506

Death:

O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court...

—Qur'an, 3:55

And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him...

—Qur'an, 3:144

That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise.

—Qur'an, 4:157

Second Coming:

And when Allah said: O Jesus, I am going to terminate the period (or give you death or take you back) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

—Qur'an, 3:55

And when Allah will say: O Jesus son of Mary! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

—Qur'an, 5:116

And peace on me (Jesus) on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life.

—Qur'an, 19:33

Ustwo · 03-09-2008, 08:29 PM

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Excerpt K 9:073
Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them...

Excerpt K 47:035
Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...

And on, and on, and on......

Its nicely old testament.

But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore.

Willravel · 03-09-2008, 08:43 PM

Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an.

Baraka_Guru · 03-10-2008, 03:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore.

But we were picking and choosing about Jesus.

And by the by, I could post endlessly about the atrocities committed by the American people. But what would be the point? I would think no less of you and it would be irrelevant here. Please try to keep focus. You don't see me posting a bunch of paintings based on the Qur'an. I'd really like to because their beautiful, but you see, they're irrelevant here.

ratbastid · 03-10-2008, 06:24 AM

EDIT: You know what? It's just not worth it.

Ustwo · 03-10-2008, 06:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an.

Yes there are a similarity between the old testament violence and the Qur'an.

Please stop thinking you are the authority in everything Islam.

This has been a fight for 1500 years for a reason, and it doesn't' take a genius to figure out that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't all be right, and as such 'they' hate us as we have.

roachboy · 03-10-2008, 06:44 AM

i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to.

i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit.
but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is.

Ustwo · 03-10-2008, 06:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to.

i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit.
but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is.

Your posts suck ass too roachboy. If you want to call my posting horseshit lose the moderator tag.

Edit: and Ill state when the usual liberal posse is mad at me, I must be onto something.

Jinn · 03-10-2008, 07:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Qu'ran

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

[4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them...

Excerpt K 8:012
Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them.

Excerpt K 9:029
Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Excerpt K 9:073
Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them...

Excerpt K 47:035
Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works...

Ironically enough, you proved the point of the OP. "They believe almost the same thing.." is true in good and in bad.

The Bible has just as much violence as the Qu'ran, as much as you'd like to link the book to the behavior.

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Holy Bible

# Because God liked Abel's animal sacrifice more than Cain's vegetables, Cain kills his brother Abel in a fit of religious jealousy. 4:8

# God is angry. He decides to destroy all humans, beasts, creeping things, fowls, and "all flesh wherein there is breath of life." He plans to drown them all. 6:7, 17

# God repeats his intention to kill "every living substance ... from off the face of the earth." But why does God kill all the innocent animals? What had they done to deserve his wrath? It seems God never gets his fill of tormenting animals. 7:4

# God drowns everything that breathes air. From newborn babies to koala bears -- all creatures great and small, the Lord God drowned them all. 7:21-23

# God tells Abram to kill some animals for him. The needless slaughter makes God feel better. 15:9-10

# Hagar conceives, making Sarai jealous. Abram tells Sarai to do to Hagar whatever she wants. "And when Sarai dealt hardly with her, she fled." 16:6

# Lot refuses to give up his angels to the perverted mob, offering his two "virgin daughters" instead. He tells the bunch of angel rapers to "do unto them [his daughters] as is good in your eyes." This is the same man that is called "just" and "righteous" in 2 Peter 2:7-8. 19:7-8

# God kills everyone (men, women, children, infants, newborns) in Sodom and Gomorrah by raining "fire and brimstone from the Lord out of heaven." Well, almost everyone -- he spares the "just and righteous" Lot and his family. 19:24

# Lot's nameless wife looks back, and God turns her into a pillar of salt. 19:26

# God threatens to kill Abimelech and his people for believing Abe's lie. 20:3-7

# Sarai tells Abraham to "cast out this bondwoman and her son." God commands him to "hearken unto her voice." So Abraham abandons Hagar and Ishmael, casting them out into the wilderness to die. 21:10-14

# God orders Abraham to kill Isaac as a burnt offering. Abraham shows his love for God by his willingness to murder his son. But finally, just before Isaac's throat is slit, God provides a goat to kill instead. 22:2-13

# Abraham shows his willingness to kill his son for God. Only an evil God would ask a father to do that; only a bad father would be willing to do it. 22:10

# Dinah, the daughter of Jacob, is "defiled" by a man who seems to love her dearly. Her brothers trick all of the men of the town and kill them (after first having them all circumcised), and then take their wives and children captive. 34:1-31

# "The terror of God was upon the cities that were round about them." 35:5

# "And Er, Judah's firstborn, was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." What did Er do to elicit God's wrath? The Bible doesn't say. Maybe he picked up some sticks on Saturday. 38:7

# After God killed Er, Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. 38:8-10

Check out the SAB's "Long list of cruelty and violence in the Bible" if you're so convinced that the Qu'ran is what causes children to strap bombs to themselves. If that were true, why wouldn't Bible-thumping Christians do the same?

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

I suppose it fits less nicely into the conservative world-view when you have to accept that the Bible encourages as much violence as Islam does.

Punk.of.Ages · 03-10-2008, 07:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I've posted it in philosophy because I don't want this to turn into something about Iran vs. US or getting our of Iraq or Israel vs. Palestine

Mission failed, eh?

Baraka_Guru · 03-10-2008, 07:19 AM

This whole thread is a misattributation.

"They" don't hate Christians so much as they hate imperialists.

The essential topic is interesting though.

roachboy · 03-10-2008, 07:37 AM

how about this, then:

it is self-evident that there are a huge number of belligerent statements about others all the way through the biblical old testament. it would be a doable but tedious exercise to make lists of them, take them out of context and paste them up here. it is, as they say, a no-brainer.

but doing that says nothing---and i mean NOTHING--about modalities of actual belief or practice.

even without going into any specifics, this should be obvious: you are talking both in the case of christianity and islam about belief systems that incorporate HUGE populations--HUGE ranges of belief--and on that basis alone ANY sequence of sentence ripped from EITHER the bible or the koran is not going to provide you with a basis for saying anything--except that the adopting of attitudes articulated through these sentence is a POSSIBILITY. but that means nothing--not really: it doesn't explain how or why these possibilities might be taken up by particular individuals or organizations and not others--it doesn't say anything about context, whether anti-imperialist politics might get routed through these types of statements for tactical purposes for example. so these lists say NOTHING about how or why these possibilities might or might not be operationalised--so they say NOTHING about outcomes. and these lists do not even get CLOSE to enabling you to talk about the range of beliefs within communities--what they do is to enable a superficial kind of politics of gesture. that's it. this is obvious--self-evident--if you think about what you're doing at all.

sadly, this cuts in all directions: it is a problem for the thread as well.

so these lists, then, are therapeutic exercises that are entirely about the viewpoint of the person who assembles them---and in alot of cases about the weakness of the thinking behind that assemblage--so the lists, when you evaluate them, rebound onto questions of intent behind their assemblage.

and this is where the trouble lay, and this is why i say--and stand by--the claim that no. 3 is bottom-of-the-barrel tripe (like that better?)

and it is not obvious that islam entails the same kind of belief that christianity does, and so you are wrong even in assuming that it does.
it is really simple to find this out.
all you need is a little curiousity about modes of being that are not yours.

and i stand by the claim that the fact you feel authorized to post about something you neither know nor particularly seem to care about knowing is an embarrassment. but post away---it's your prerogative: i'm the last person to get in the way of that.

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Yes there are a similarity between the old testament violence and the Qur'an.

... but instead of focusing on that, you tried to denigrate Islam by posting verses out of context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Please stop thinking you are the authority in everything Islam.

Please stop posting verses out of context and jacking all my threads. And I do know more about Islam than you choose to.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

This has been a fight for 1500 years for a reason, and it doesn't' take a genius to figure out that Jews, Christians, and Muslims can't all be right, and as such 'they' hate us as we have.

This is a prime example of the threadjack. This is not a political thread. Some of what would have been discussed could have had an effect on politics, but it was intended to be philosophy. Which is why it's in TFPhilosophy, not TFPolitics.

People getting pissed at you has nothing to do with your politics, U2. It doesn't have anything to do with being "onto something". It's your malicious way of posting. You see something you don't like, you don't understand, or that frightens you and you put up your wall and bring out your guns. You kick and scream and threadjack until you're either sent to the corner or the thread gets closed. That kind of behavior damages our community. While I'm sure you're aware of this on some level, I feel I need to make it crystal clear.

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 09:34 AM

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

Jinn · 03-10-2008, 09:49 AM

Powerclown, that's a terrible threadjack.

But since you did it, I'm allowed to reply.

A terribly made (albeit true) Youtube - Why do atheists care about religion?

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 10:02 AM

That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America.

Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal.

Baraka_Guru · 03-10-2008, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal.

It would be more accurate to say "similarities in the nutritional value of pork and veal." Which would be more legitimate, but still too inaccurate an analogy.

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 10:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

As an atheist, I shouldn't know more about religion than religious people. And yet, here we are.

Not only that, but I wasn't born a "vegetarian", and had more time exploring different meats than most people before I settled on vegetarianism. I was born eating pork (Christianity), but then studied beef (Judaism), lamb (Islam), chicken (Hinduism), fish (Taoism), etc. So you see I may even be uniquely qualified to compare, considering many people have not dabbled.

What has struck me is that people seem to think that Christianity and Islam are at odds so very much. From my perspective, they're simply variations on the theme of Abrahamism, but even from the perspective of a Christian, if you line them up side by side, the similarities are staggering. This thread is about studying the similarities from a theological or philosophical standpoint, so as to educate and explore.

Can we get this back on track now, please?

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

It would be more accurate to say "similarities in the nutritional value of pork and veal." Which would be more legitimate, but still too inaccurate an analogy.

Right, how about the similarities in the molecular stucture of the dna between pork and veal. Would that be even more legitimate for ya?

Jinn · 03-10-2008, 11:00 AM

Quote:

That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America.

You obviously didn't watch the whole thing.

Quote:

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

This is what it was in response to. Not Willravel, not the OP. Your threadjack.

There's a damned good reason to be concerned about religion as an atheist.

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

You obviously didn't watch the whole thing.

This is what it was in response to. Not Willravel, not the OP. Your threadjack.

There's a damned good reason to be concerned about religion as an atheist.

You're obviously full of $hit because I did watch the whole thing. Ok, atheists can be concerned about the political implications of religion, yay, but what does that have to do with this thread? Answer: very little. He's not talking about the political implications of religion, thats another thread. What Will is trying to do is defuse the subject of Dueling Religions by appealing to something he has personally rejected in his own life. Would you trust a Buick salesman trying to sell you a 2-headed dildo? I didn't think so.

/pseudo-threadjack

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 12:34 PM

As I recall, you started a thread regarding socialism while you yourself are not a socialist.

If you don't like a thread, hit the back button. I'm not interested in any more threadjacks. Please stock to the subject at hand.

roachboy · 03-10-2008, 12:48 PM

the interconnections between islam and christianity and judaism are obvious if you read the qu'ran at all. in alot of ways, islam benefitted from its 600 years of hindsight relative to christianity and tried to "get it right" by correcting for what were perceived as excesses on the part of the latter.

all you have to do is look into this even a little and it's apparent.

so the idea that xtianity and islam are radically Different is silly--but it's been a useful ideological claim for both sides--but especially for christianity, which, if you look at it's history, has a kind of xenophobia issue--to say the opposite in order to justify conflict. in this, nothing, sadly, is new.

Martian · 03-10-2008, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Please stock to the subject at hand.

Can I get a put option?

To the people who consider such things important, the similarities are irrelevant. It's the differences that matter, no matter how small they seem to an outsider. Compare shi'a and sunni muslims for another example.

vanblah · 03-10-2008, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

You're obviously full of $hit because I did watch the whole thing. Ok, atheists can be concerned about the political implications of religion, yay, but what does that have to do with this thread? Answer: very little. He's not talking about the political implications of religion, thats another thread. What Will is trying to do is defuse the subject of Dueling Religions by appealing to something he has personally rejected in his own life. Would you trust a Buick salesman trying to sell you a 2-headed dildo? I didn't think so.

/pseudo-threadjack

Sorry, Will, for this threadjack.

Well, a LOT of theologians are also atheists. You certainly CAN study something without subscribing to the dogma.

With regard to the OT, I have always felt that the different religions are many sides of a multi-dimensional coin. A coin that doesn't really have a lot of value ... in my opinion.

roachboy · 03-10-2008, 01:06 PM

there's a way in which you can only think about religion in general if you can relativize them. hard to do that if you've got one you can't or won't relativize. only problem is that once you do this relativizing thing, the idea of religion starts moving around: it is itself a problem because it entails a particular type of relation and takes that as universal. that's an obstacle. so it's maybe best seen as a quandrant of ideology...

you dont have to believe to find that interesting.
to say otherwise is like saying you have to be a bean to find beans interesting.

Charlatan · 03-10-2008, 02:27 PM

The issue isn't that there are similarities in the texts... there are. The issue is that, as roach suggests, ideology has come into play.

Those who interpret the text do so according to their agendas. Agendas which are not necessarily connected to the original texts.

This happens in all religions.

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

As I recall, you started a thread regarding socialism while you yourself are not a socialist.

How do you know that? Did you have host google that for you somehow and you automatically believe it, well its simply not true; I am for some federally funded social programs such as veterans assistance, domestic abuse, healthcare, drug addiction/education, mental health issues, creative arts endowments, international aid programs and the like. So, Apples & Oranges.

vanblah, you are correct. One can study religion without being personally religious. I don't think that is the point here, the point that was meant by this thread. Maybe I'm wrong, but I've yet to see it...would be happy to be surprised. Whether one perceives the "gap" between Islam and Christianity small or large - or whether there is an Islamic Jesus - is besides the point: the 2 sides have been warring for centuries. When one says, "they don't hate us", well, I would say take a look around: some of them do. Some of them hate us so much in fact, that they do some pretty obscene things to drive just that point home. And right or wrong, some of us hate them back.

But I see what will is trying to do here, and I suppose it is admirable, although I know in the same breath he supports what Hamas and Hezbollah are trying to do to Israel. Will, why don't you send that video to Nasrallah of Hezbollah or Ahmadinejad in Iran, see what they make of it.

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powerclown

But I see what will is trying to do here, and I suppose it is admirable,

And yet you continue to threadjack.

uncle phil · 03-10-2008, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

And yet you continue to threadjack.

will you guys freakin' slow - the- fuck down!!!

powerclown · 03-10-2008, 04:22 PM

Isn't it: He who dies with the most posts wins?

Ok will, the soapbox is yours. Knock 'em dead.

Hanxter · 03-10-2008, 04:49 PM

you brought it on yrself... as somewould say about some of my posts...

"get over it"

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hanxter

"get over it"

In other words, you don't care if people threadjack. Fine:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.

The "..." bullshit doesn't fly. It's actually: "And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors." And you missed the end there, too. After "Such is the recompense of disbelievers." is "But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful."

These omissions translate to literally: "don't start the fight, and if they stop fighting, then you stop fighting." Oh my god... how terrible!!!

I won't even bother with the rest.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore.

It sure as fuck does matter. The funny thing is that most Muslims are perfectly aware that Christianity and Islam are really similar, but most Christians, at least in the US, are blissfully ignorant. That's what this thread is about. It's about exposing Baptists to the fact that Jesus is considered a prophet by Muslims. It's about exposing Presbyterians to the fact that there is a whole chapter in the Qur'an called "Mary", referring to the mother of Jesus Christ. It's about explaining to Lutherans that Muslims believe that Jesus performed miracles.

Of course, many of the Christians of the US are satisfied with voting for a moron that will bomb and invade primarily Muslim countries and kill their citizens it doesn't matter anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerclown

For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

No shit. Do you think that may be because in Okalahomoron, one can raise their hand in science class and say "Jesus" in order to get an A? I don't want it shoved down my throat every day. I don't want my kids indoctrinated. I don't want to live in a theocracy. There is only one actual theocracy on the planet right now: Iran. Look at how that's working out, and then apply it to a nation with the world's most powerful military.

Also, I probably know more about Christianity than the average Christian. Why? So I can defend myself. "Ur, an atheist?! Debil worshiper?! *drools*" can sometimes be followed by serious posturing and occasionally the thread of physical harm. I have to be able to twist their own religion to my advantage in order to shut them up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerclown

How do you know that? Did you have host google that for you somehow and you automatically believe it, well its simply not true; I am for some federally funded social programs such as veterans assistance, domestic abuse, healthcare, drug addiction/education, mental health issues, creative arts endowments, international aid programs and the like. So, Apples & Oranges.

The point still stands strong. Many religious people are ignorant to religion, to the point where an atheist has to lay it out for them. Did you know that Muslims believe that Jesus had a virgin birth? Did you know that they believe that Jesus will return at judgment day? Did you know they believe in John the Baptist?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Powerclown

But I see what will is trying to do here, and I suppose it is admirable, although I know in the same breath he supports what Hamas and Hezbollah are trying to do to Israel.

Hezbollah and Hamas shouldn't exist, just like Israel. They are each organizations that attack innocent people and who support a radical religious agenda which stands in stark opposition to free thought.

Charlatan · 03-10-2008, 05:26 PM

Hey Will

I think your case would have been better served if you had stated your agenda, as laid out in your last post, in your OP.

There is no quicker way to invite a threadjack or a troll than to post something without first giving a clear context.

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Hezbollah and Hamas shouldn't exist, just like Israel. They are each organizations that attack innocent people and who support a radical religious agenda which stands in stark opposition to free thought.

As for this statement... I don't think you can equate Hamas and Hezbollah with the state of Israel like that. You can suggest that the State of Israel may contain groups that are like Hamas and Hezbollah but to paint an entire nation the way you have requires a very large brush.

Willravel · 03-10-2008, 05:39 PM

I was generalizing in a rant. And yes, it was a massive brush.

This thread is about education and exploration of information. At least it was supposed to be.

Jinn · 03-13-2008, 07:57 AM

Mostly topical:

I addressed a similar concern to this thread to a friend of mine after he sent out a mass-forward about Obama, how he was a Muslim, how we were at war with the "Muslim Nation," and how Mohammed was a warlord.

I again sent the link for the SAB's "long list of violence" in the Bible, and he responded with:

"The fact is that God is just and truthful. There is a huge difference between my God and Allah in that Allah originated as a pagan moon god. My god sent his son that died for all of us, even those who dont know him at all. Muslim people are those dudes that flew into the towers, remember. I'll write more later. One love, your pal"

That scares me.

A lot.

Baraka_Guru · 03-13-2008, 04:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JinnKai

That scares me.

A lot.

Rightly so.

Yakk · 03-14-2008, 04:13 PM

There is a difference between viewing X as the alpha, the omega, the creator of the universe, and the judge of all that can be and has been ... and viewing someone else's god as a mere prophet, secondary to the real prophet, whose teachings replace the old prophet's teachings and are final.

I don't see how these are "almost the same thing"?

I mean, many Christians believe Pasta is tasty, while Pastafarians believe God is Pasta. Is that also "almost the same thing"?

Willravel · 03-14-2008, 06:05 PM

Belief in one god? Check.
Basis on Judaism? Check.
Belief in Mary? Check.
Belief in Jesus? Check.
Belief in the immaculate conception of Jesus? Check.
Belief in miracles of Jesus? Check.
Belief that Jesus will return on Judgment Day? Check.

BTW, in Christianity, Jesus is a demigod, only a part of a whole god. So it's disingenuous to call Jesus "someone else's god".

Yakk, did you even watch the movie in the OP?

03-08-2008, 09:38 PM	#2 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	For those who like to read Birth: And she (Mary) who guarded her chastity, so We breathed into her of Our Spirit and made her and her son a sign for the nations. —Qur'an, 21:91 And We made the son of Mary and his mother as a Sign: We gave them both shelter on high ground, affording rest and security and furnished with springs —Qur'an, 23:50 When any human being is born. Satan touches him at both sides of the body with his two fingers, except Jesus, the son of Mary, whom Satan tried to touch but failed, for he touched the placenta-cover instead. —Sahih Bukhari, 4:54:506 Death: O Jesus! I will cause you to die of natural causes and I will exalt you in honor in My Court... —Qur'an, 3:55 And Muhammad is no more than a messenger; the messengers have already died before him... —Qur'an, 3:144 That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not: Nay, Allah raised him up unto Himself; and Allah is Exalted in Power, Wise. —Qur'an, 4:157 Second Coming: And when Allah said: O Jesus, I am going to terminate the period (or give you death or take you back) and cause you to ascend unto Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed. —Qur'an, 3:55 And when Allah will say: O Jesus son of Mary! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. —Qur'an, 5:116 And peace on me (Jesus) on the day I was born, and on the day I die, and on the day I am raised to life. —Qur'an, 19:33 __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-09-2008, 08:29 PM	#3 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	[2.190] ...fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you...[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers. [4.89] ...take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah’s way; but if they turn back [to their homes], then seize them and kill them wherever you find them... [4.90] Allah has not given you a way against them [Allah supposedly does not allow Muslims to fight people friendly to Muslims]. [4.91]...seize them and kill them wherever you find them... Excerpt K 8:012 Set 28, Count 62 ...make firm those who believe. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them. Excerpt K 9:029 Set 38, Count 101 Fight those who do not believe in Allah...nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection. Excerpt K 9:073 Set 44, Count 108 ...strive hard [Jihad] against the unbelievers and the hypocrites and be unyielding to them... Excerpt K 47:035 Set 71, Count 138 Rodwell: Be not fainthearted then; and invite not the infidels to peace when ye have the upper hand: for God is with you, and will not defraud you of the recompense of your works... And on, and on, and on...... Its nicely old testament. But while you can pick and choose what you want to make it look peaceful or warlike, it doesn't matter. When they send youth out with bombs under their coats to kill civilians it doesn't matter anymore. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

03-10-2008, 06:44 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i considered deleting no. 3, but decided not to. i would like to as it is really bottom-of-the-barrel horseshit. but it's also embarrassing: so maybe it has a salutary effect left dangling there, as it is. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-10-2008, 07:19 AM	#12 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	This whole thread is a misattributation. "They" don't hate Christians so much as they hate imperialists. The essential topic is interesting though. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

03-10-2008, 07:37 AM	#13 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	how about this, then: it is self-evident that there are a huge number of belligerent statements about others all the way through the biblical old testament. it would be a doable but tedious exercise to make lists of them, take them out of context and paste them up here. it is, as they say, a no-brainer. but doing that says nothing---and i mean NOTHING--about modalities of actual belief or practice. even without going into any specifics, this should be obvious: you are talking both in the case of christianity and islam about belief systems that incorporate HUGE populations--HUGE ranges of belief--and on that basis alone ANY sequence of sentence ripped from EITHER the bible or the koran is not going to provide you with a basis for saying anything--except that the adopting of attitudes articulated through these sentence is a POSSIBILITY. but that means nothing--not really: it doesn't explain how or why these possibilities might be taken up by particular individuals or organizations and not others--it doesn't say anything about context, whether anti-imperialist politics might get routed through these types of statements for tactical purposes for example. so these lists say NOTHING about how or why these possibilities might or might not be operationalised--so they say NOTHING about outcomes. and these lists do not even get CLOSE to enabling you to talk about the range of beliefs within communities--what they do is to enable a superficial kind of politics of gesture. that's it. this is obvious--self-evident--if you think about what you're doing at all. sadly, this cuts in all directions: it is a problem for the thread as well. so these lists, then, are therapeutic exercises that are entirely about the viewpoint of the person who assembles them---and in alot of cases about the weakness of the thinking behind that assemblage--so the lists, when you evaluate them, rebound onto questions of intent behind their assemblage. and this is where the trouble lay, and this is why i say--and stand by--the claim that no. 3 is bottom-of-the-barrel tripe (like that better?) and it is not obvious that islam entails the same kind of belief that christianity does, and so you are wrong even in assuming that it does. it is really simple to find this out. all you need is a little curiousity about modes of being that are not yours. and i stand by the claim that the fact you feel authorized to post about something you neither know nor particularly seem to care about knowing is an embarrassment. but post away---it's your prerogative: i'm the last person to get in the way of that. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite Last edited by roachboy; 03-10-2008 at 07:43 AM..

03-09-2008, 08:43 PM	#4 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Please delete your post, Ustwo. This thread is about the similarities between Christianity and Islam, not your complete misunderstanding of the Qur'an.

03-10-2008, 06:24 AM	#6 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	EDIT: You know what? It's just not worth it.

03-10-2008, 09:34 AM	#15 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	For a vehement atheist, you seem awfully concerned about religion.

03-10-2008, 09:49 AM	#16 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Powerclown, that's a terrible threadjack. But since you did it, I'm allowed to reply. A terribly made (albeit true) Youtube - Why do atheists care about religion? __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

03-10-2008, 10:02 AM	#17 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	That video has nothing to do with comparing 2 separate religions, it's talking about the political and social problems atheists run into in Christian America. Wills statement is like a vegetarian commenting on the similarities in taste between pork and veal.

03-10-2008, 12:34 PM	#23 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	As I recall, you started a thread regarding socialism while you yourself are not a socialist. If you don't like a thread, hit the back button. I'm not interested in any more threadjacks. Please stock to the subject at hand.

03-10-2008, 12:48 PM	#24 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	the interconnections between islam and christianity and judaism are obvious if you read the qu'ran at all. in alot of ways, islam benefitted from its 600 years of hindsight relative to christianity and tried to "get it right" by correcting for what were perceived as excesses on the part of the latter. all you have to do is look into this even a little and it's apparent. so the idea that xtianity and islam are radically Different is silly--but it's been a useful ideological claim for both sides--but especially for christianity, which, if you look at it's history, has a kind of xenophobia issue--to say the opposite in order to justify conflict. in this, nothing, sadly, is new. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-10-2008, 01:06 PM	#27 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	there's a way in which you can only think about religion in general if you can relativize them. hard to do that if you've got one you can't or won't relativize. only problem is that once you do this relativizing thing, the idea of religion starts moving around: it is itself a problem because it entails a particular type of relation and takes that as universal. that's an obstacle. so it's maybe best seen as a quandrant of ideology... you dont have to believe to find that interesting. to say otherwise is like saying you have to be a bean to find beans interesting. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

03-10-2008, 02:27 PM	#28 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	The issue isn't that there are similarities in the texts... there are. The issue is that, as roach suggests, ideology has come into play. Those who interpret the text do so according to their agendas. Agendas which are not necessarily connected to the original texts. This happens in all religions. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

03-10-2008, 04:22 PM	#32 (permalink)
powerclown Junkie Location: Detroit, MI	Isn't it: He who dies with the most posts wins? Ok will, the soapbox is yours. Knock 'em dead.

03-10-2008, 04:49 PM	#33 (permalink)
Hanxter The Griffin	you brought it on yrself... as somewould say about some of my posts... "get over it"

03-10-2008, 05:39 PM	#36 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	I was generalizing in a rant. And yes, it was a massive brush. This thread is about education and exploration of information. At least it was supposed to be.

03-13-2008, 07:57 AM	#37 (permalink)
Jinn Lover - Protector - Teacher Location: Seattle, WA	Mostly topical: I addressed a similar concern to this thread to a friend of mine after he sent out a mass-forward about Obama, how he was a Muslim, how we were at war with the "Muslim Nation," and how Mohammed was a warlord. I again sent the link for the SAB's "long list of violence" in the Bible, and he responded with: "The fact is that God is just and truthful. There is a huge difference between my God and Allah in that Allah originated as a pagan moon god. My god sent his son that died for all of us, even those who dont know him at all. Muslim people are those dudes that flew into the towers, remember. I'll write more later. One love, your pal" That scares me. A lot. __________________ "I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

03-14-2008, 04:13 PM	#39 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	There is a difference between viewing X as the alpha, the omega, the creator of the universe, and the judge of all that can be and has been ... and viewing someone else's god as a mere prophet, secondary to the real prophet, whose teachings replace the old prophet's teachings and are final. I don't see how these are "almost the same thing"? I mean, many Christians believe Pasta is tasty, while Pastafarians believe God is Pasta. Is that also "almost the same thing"? __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

03-14-2008, 06:05 PM	#40 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Belief in one god? Check. Basis on Judaism? Check. Belief in Mary? Check. Belief in Jesus? Check. Belief in the immaculate conception of Jesus? Check. Belief in miracles of Jesus? Check. Belief that Jesus will return on Judgment Day? Check. BTW, in Christianity, Jesus is a demigod, only a part of a whole god. So it's disingenuous to call Jesus "someone else's god". Yakk, did you even watch the movie in the OP?