Yakk

No, a 46 minute long movie about the Muslim faith calling Jesus an important prophet seems like a slow way to learn. Do you have a transcript?

When I watched the first 5 minutes of it, it hasn't said anything of interest that would make me think "Muslim view of Jesus is almost the same as the Christian view", or even any hint that it would get anywhere close to that.

Many Buddists consider Jesus to be a Budda. Many humanists consider Jesus to be an interesting possibly historical figure, whose philosophical positions are sometimes laudible. Muslims consider Jesus to be a prophet. Christians think Jesus is the creator of the universe.

That happens to be the core of (most) Christian theology. Viewing "X is actually god" vs "X is someone who did many of the same things, but is a prophet" ... isn't almost the same thing.

Is there a particular part of the movie that would change my mind? If so, thanks!

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Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

Willravel

For the second time:
Belief in one god? Check.
Basis on Judaism? Check.
Belief in Mary? Check.
Belief in Jesus? Check.
Belief in the immaculate conception of Jesus? Check.
Belief in miracles of Jesus? Check.
Belief that Jesus will return on Judgment Day? Check.

Ustwo

Belief that Jesus is the Son of God and part of the holy trinity? .... ..... .... .... ... Bueller....Bueller....

Yea you forgot that one.

A good apology to your purposeful oversight would be.

Pair of tits? Check.
Likes sex with men? Check.
Wears makeup? Check.
Hour glass figure? Check.
Looks good in a dress? Check.

Calling it a woman without checking for the testicles? Big mistake.

Its not just 'a' difference to be added up as "see there are 100 things similar and only 9 things different!"

Its THE difference, its everything, its the alpha and the omega difference. One is the messiah the other is just a man.

Ignoring this difference is grossly disingenuous.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

n0nsensical

Crazy guy in the desert? Check.
Millions of even crazier followers? Check.

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"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

Slims

Ok, I will weigh in here.

There are many similarities, and most of the muslims I talk to here in Afghanistan are well aware of them.

However, it is a mistake to think of Islam as a single, cohesive entity. It is far more varied and fractured than Christianity. I have read the transcripts from sermons at local mosques where the people are implored to wage Jihad against any non-believers (I.E. Christians). I have also heard exactly the opposite from Mullahs who were preaching only a short distance away. I have read the night letters that get posted on the doors of girls schools, teachers houses, health clinics, etc. and have yet to see one that supports mutual understanding.

There are many similarities between christianity and islam, both things to be proud of, and things that should shame us.

I don't want to threadjack here, but Will, I don't see how you have left any room for discussion. Your first post points out similarities, yet we can't discuss the many differences? It leaves room for only nods of agreement.

There are key differences between the "big three" religions that are very crucial towards understanding why the world is the way it is. The similarities only go so far.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Baraka_Guru

But muslims haven't....

We gave Moses the Book and followed him up with a succession of messengers; We gave Jesus the son of Mary Clear (Signs) and strengthened him with the holy spirit. Is it that whenever there comes to you a messenger with what ye yourselves desire not, ye are puffed up with pride?- Some ye called impostors, and others ye slay!

–Qur'an, 2:87

Those messengers We endowed with gifts, some above others: To one of them Allah spoke; others He raised to degrees (of honour); to Jesus the son of Mary We gave clear (Signs), and strengthened him with the holy spirit. If Allah had so willed, succeeding generations would not have fought among each other, after clear (Signs) had come to them, but they (chose) to wrangle, some believing and others rejecting. If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.

–Qur'an, 2:253

Then will Allah say: "O Jesus the son of Mary! Recount My favour to thee and to thy mother. Behold! I strengthened thee with the holy spirit, so that thou didst speak to the people in childhood and in maturity. Behold! I taught thee the Book and Wisdom, the Law and the Gospel and behold! thou makest out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, by My leave, and thou breathest into it and it becometh a bird by My leave, and thou healest those born blind, and the lepers, by My leave. And behold! thou bringest forth the dead by My leave. And behold! I did restrain the Children of Israel from (violence to) thee when thou didst show them the clear Signs, and the unbelievers among them said: 'This is nothing but evident magic.'

–Qur'an, 5:110

Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.

–Qur'an, 16:102

Holy messenger? Check.
Holy word? Check.
Holy spirit? Check.
God (Allah) is still one? Check.


This thread isn't about Islam = Christianity. It's about seeing how one derives from the other some of the inherent beliefs. Let's not take this out of context.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

genuinegirly

An interesting film. Thank you for sharing.

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"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Ustwo

And Jesus our Lord son of god who came to wash the sins of the world? Not check.

Its exactly what I'm talking about a profit, and obvious one that Allah decided
wasn't good enough since its his will people kept fighting.

If Allah had so willed, they would not have fought each other; but Allah Fulfilleth His plan.

That Allah, hes a tricky one.

Jesus lord
Jesus not lord

This is not difficult.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

I agree.
We're talking about similarities, not that they're the same thing.

Jesus was a messenger of Allah. Allah reinforced him with the holy spirit. Though this doesn't make Jesus Lord God, it certainly makes him important. One would say the next best thing; others would say he is the same.

And Allah allows free will? Interesting. Thanks for pointing it out for us. There is yet another parallel of Christianity and Islam.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

blahblah454

I read about the first 8 posts in this thread then just skipped to the bottom. So bearing in mind I kind of stopped reading after ustwo's horse shit this is what I have to say.

Have any of you ever met a muslim in real life? From what I have read everyone is just buying into the bull shit the media throws at us, you think every single person who reads the Qur'an hates Christians and bombs people? Every single Muslim I have ever met has been a very decent person who is respectful of other religions, and yes I have talked to them on their views of Christianity and Jesus and God. There are similarities.

Back to everyone thinking they are terrorists. If I lived in Canada and all I saw on TV about USA was the red necks who hate black people and burn other countries flags. Or even that moron who says "God Hates Fags" and protests the military funerals, what do you think I would think of USA. Try thinking on your own and not labeling an entire nation and religion with a brush. It makes me fucking sick when people do that.

Ustwo

I've got Muslim long term friends, be condescending elsewhere, you haven't earned the right.

I've met some very nice, very educated, and very non-violent Muslims in my time. It was talking with some of them that has me convinced that this issue was far worse than I would have thought had I just used US sources.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Slims

BlahBlah:

Where do you meet the muslims you talk about? Because I can tell you that most of the muslims in Europe or the United States are reasonable, moderate people who wouldn't be there otherwise.

Of course, you have the same reasonable, moderate people elsewhere, but the prevalance of extremism and the views they hold elsewhere in the world is really astonishing. I have watched Arabic TV shows that air over Dubai, and Saudi state run TV depicting Jews as people who drink the blood of children for their religious rituals (they went so far as to act out the sacrifice). I talk to the poor people here in Afghanistan, away from the cities, who have never seen an american before, or even a christian. The beliefs they hold are truly astonishing. It is from this pool that the people who would do us harm come from, not from the moderate, educated, rational people that have been raised around western culture.

I have an Interpreter who is afraid his wife's family is going to kill him...For being so audacious as to marry her when she asked him to. They were forcing her to marry a cousin whom she had never met nor wanted to marry.

I know guys who have burned down girls schools, and killed teachers. Local people (not your typical extremists) will kill a village member if they think he has converted to christianity.

Honor killings are accepted. If a daughter has sex outside of marriage her own family will kill her. If she is pregnant, they will kill the baby also.

Girls can't ride bikes here, or drive cars, etc. To do so will earn them a beating or worse. If a woman walks around without a Burkha (in the rural areas) or with a non-relative male, they may both be killed.

A wife usually never meets her husband before their wedding. Which leaves her with no options because if she divorces him (somethign allowed in Islam) she becomes a beggar on the street. However, her husband can take another wife if he doesn't like the first one, and his original wife has absolutely no say in the issue.

Almost all the propaganda I have read (and which supposedly written in such a way as to resonate with the intended audience) focuses almost exclusively on religion and how evil christianity and Judiasm are, rather than us simply being an occupying force that needs to be expelled. I don't think I have read one that doesn't at least mention the inevitable victory of Islam over all other religions and global Sharia law.

I can understand a desire to get along with everybody, and a valid desire for people to realize that most muslims are good people (they are), but don't think for a minute that what you see back at home in any way reflects the degree of extremism found in parts of the muslim world.

It is not possible to have a church (at least one that isn't held in secret), or religous icons from other religions, historical artifacts with religious significance other than islam (the stone Buddhas, for instance), or anything that would indicate any degree of religious tolerance on behalf of Muslims in this country. Walk around Jewish, Christian, Buddhist, Hindu areas and old temples to other religions are allowed to stand, Mosques are built in plain sight, etc. There is only one religion right now that will not tolerate any of the others, and it is Islam.

__________________
"Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill

"All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

Ustwo

Quoted for emphasis.

Peace is used as a weapon. You ONLY make peace with infidels when you can't beat them out right, and as soon as you are stronger its wrong (sin, against allah) to NOT subjugate them.

This sort of tactic is justified to them because its what Muhammad did to capture Mecca in the first place, at least thats what I was told they were taught, by one who grew up in Jordan.

Of course you could tell THEM they are misinterpreting the Koran, and I'm sure they will listen to a young westerner about that.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

silent_jay

Who is THEM?

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blahblah454

Greg, I really liked reading your post. Thank you for describing it without all the stick waving that most people do when dealing with this topic. And you are right, every Muslim that I have met has been living in Canada for at least 6 months, so they most definitely are not the extremist type.