girldetective

In a prior thread I briefly touched upon superiority and wanted to take it a little further. I had hoped to leave superiority behind permanently, so I am ashamed to admit that I am an art snob, but I am dealing with it.

For example, I am dating Tpop who believes he is an artist, and so he is. I recently I sent him a poem, and he sent it back to me all gummed up with his own words, his own version. I was offended, not necessarily because he did his own take, more so because it was awful. Then he proceeds over time to send me his own poems and other peoples' song lyrics that he has plagiarized and made into his own. I just can't begin to tell you how funky these are.

However, Tpop is surprising. He believes he is a good artist and there really is something wonderful about him. For example, twice now in public he has quietly played and sang me a song of his own making (incredibly schmultzy like you wouldn't believe), which I admired. I cringed at the thought of going to the art museum with him, but when I did I had a fab time and saw the art differently. Instead of with the critical artist's eye, I saw the intrinsic and historical value, appreciated different forms or colors, etc. The same held true for the art gallery. It was great.

So I wonder about superiority. How do we acquire it, and is it ever practical or helpful? (Edited for change of wording: Superiority replaced Pretension, which would also beg that it could be helpful in a power struggle, etc.)

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

asaris

It seems to me that pretension assumes negativity. That is, it is by definition never practical or helpful. To me it implies someone faking knowledge or understanding, usually by reference to authority, that they don't possess. Usually to impress someone. But there's probably some good thing that's a close cousin to pretension, something like self-confident actual knowledge. Using some key words and phrases to pretend you're a Kierkegaard expert is pretentious; actually knowing a lot about Kierkegaard is cool. But it may be I'm understanding pretentious in a different sense than other people.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

roachboy

i agree with asaris.

it is tedious to either fake the funk, as it were, or to interact with someone who does. so don't do it.

as for being-an-artist: well, that's tougher.
generally, i think eliot was right--everyone's a poet at 18--no-one is at 40.
i was much more willing to call myself something like that when i was 18 and didn't know anything (though no-one could have persuaded me that i didn't know anything) than i have been since. the effect of being so cavalier about it when i was young and stupider is that it has taken me a very long time to take over that category for myself, and even now i dont go around saying it because i still feel funny about it.

i guess the short version would be: if your comrade is a kid, it doesnt matter what he or she says about "being an artist"---it only matters that they keep going and figure out for themselves what that means really. at first, it's just a word that lots of folk take over in order to express little more than what you say--a sense of "specialness"....but the world is so constructed that this sense will probably get slapped outta this character sooner or later--
and that drama belongs to him/her, not you.

besides, it's not what you say about what you do: it's what you do.
you can say anything you want. anyone can.
it's the doing that matters.
whether you're faking the funk or not in the end gets revealed through your work.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

girldetective

What I mean by pretension is a feeling of superiority. You are right, pretension is incorrect. I will edit the OP and change pretension to superiority,

Roachboy: I hate to tell you this but Tpop is 55 years old!!! See what I mean?!

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Baraka_Guru

There are a few slight variations on the meaning of pretension. One that might reveal how pretension can be helpful would be the one that refers to making an authoritative claim on knowledge. This would be helpful in a leadership role.

For example, an artist, art historian, or art dealer goes to the art gallery with some friends. Being pretentious might lead the friends of the "art authority" to put stock in what is said and everyone has a valuable experience.

On the other hand, the dangerous side of pretension leads one who feels self-important to bullshit things they don't know. Those who have put stock in such a person will accept these things willingly.

The distinction is an important one.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

Feeling superior feels like the brains way of helping you ignore wasting your time dealing with those who are no where near your level of understanding on a subject.

Part of normal discourse you may have on a topic is an interchange of ideas. When the other person has nothing to tell you that you don't already know, and you know it better, then feeling superior is understandable. Talking to such people is usually a waste of time on that subject.

As a clear example think of a pro basketball player playing the average out of shape guy in a game of 1-1. That average guy has nothing to add, teach or challenge the pro who will most likely be bored out of his mind as the other guy isn't even good enough to allow the pro to show off what he can do.

The problem is when you get so secure in your superiority that you dismiss what someone has to say and assume they have nothing to add. Some times that average guy surprises you.

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roachboy

that's funny...i like it.
you made tpop sound like a kid to me.

ah well..
what i said above is still the case. except now you get to include my post as an example of presumption--and as a demonstration of how thin the line between the presumptuous and the pretentious is.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

mixedmedia

That bolded part is so true.

I often think I am superior when I'm shooting the shit with other folks - and the truth is, sometimes I actually am.

Which, of course, means by necessity that I am pretentious fairly often, too. Sometimes I become over-confident and I will believe that I can understand things I'm not well-educated on intuitively or by applying other, known concepts to them. This has been known to get me in trouble from time to time so I've learned to apply the 'well, I'm no expert on the subject, but...' qualifier when I'm talking out of my ass in this way.

But I try not be an egoiste. It is the ego that drives us to be competitive and to try and 'improve' other people. Which is presumptuous, especially when they haven't asked.

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Most people go through life dreading they'll have a traumatic experience. Freaks were born with their trauma. They've already passed their test in life. They're aristocrats. - Diane Arbus
PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Plan9

An alternative source of definition...

It's so bad... it's good.

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girldetective

CDaddy: Um, no. It is just bad. I think what saves Tpop for me is his earnestness and enthusiasm. He just likes doing his stuff. I love that.
He hasn't yet met my friends who are sure to be their own art snobs and who will judge him based on his art views. I hate that.
Its funny. You know by now that most of the people I know are artists and they purport to be the some of the most accepting people on the planet, but I have not found this to be true.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Ustwo

Thats true for pretty much every group.

Everyone is accepting as long as you accept to live, act and think like them.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

roachboy

o i dunno...i know alot of artist-types and they dont have a whole lot in common as people..they're lots of different ways..they don't react in predictable fashion because of what they do.

some are very accepting so long as you don't do something too close to what they work on themselves--then it's like a switch gets thrown and the judgment goes on.
others aren't.

i dont think "artist" is a good or coherent social category.

__________________
a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

girldetective

I agree Roachboy, and that holds true for all groups because every group is made up of individuals. Remember though that by subscribing to a group one puts oneself within that framework and those ideals, and I cannot disagree with Ustwo about that. Like you, I may not have thought of artists as a social category except that often I hear various artists put themselves into the category on their own. One thing I appreciate about artists in general besides their art is their capacity for social change and their empathy of life in general (look at Abdellatif Laabi or some of the Brazilian musicians). At the same time, I often find that this group will not hesitate to ridicule bad art as an offense, and this makes sense to me too. Making fun of a piece of art is one thing, but I often see that ridicule extend to the person, which I find sickening. I am willing and able to overlook Tpop's bad art and see him more fully and I believe that I will be seen as less than because of this by some of the people I know. In other words I predict they will wonder what has caused Namako to lower her standards. But you know what? In this instance and right now, I don't think I care. (Of course, when Tpop and I are over (which is bound to happen) I wonder what I will think then.)

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata

Ourcrazymodern?

Pretension, maybe,
helps superiority's
quite vast ascendance.

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

ring

Apprehension of not being loved, leads to pretension.

girldetective

So last night was First Thursday. I had dinner with Tpop and we hit a couple of galleries. The second gallery was crowded and I was standing there looking at a piece and minding my own business when Tpop comes up and begins to sing Besame Mucho to me with his voice at regular volume. He then proceeds to literally dance me around the room as if he were some romantic or something. So, that cinches it. Tpop is superior to me in every way, and seeing him as superior has taught me something about superiority. It is useless and constricting.

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As far as possible, without surrender, be on good terms with all persons...be cheerful; strive for happiness - Desiderata