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Old 11-14-2007, 12:57 PM   #81 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
In short, to be Christian, it seems to me that one must simply believe the teachings of Jesus are an important part of leading a better life and being redeemed from....something. One must not necessarily believe that that redemption is from original sin, nor must one believe that Jesus is the only anointed one whose teachings are important in such an endeavor.
But why the need to continue calling oneself a Christian, then? Given your definition, anyone who respected Jesus for his teachings, and who believes that the "human condition" exists (and that we cannot save ourselves from it), could call themselves a Christian. A Muslim could do that, an atheist, a Buddhist, a humanist, anyone basically... and thus the label becomes relative to the point of absurdity. One might as well not call oneself anything, if that's the perspective one has... because then it's not really about Jesus anymore. It's about creating something to fit one's desire to continue being called a "Christian."

But you might say, SM, that this is what all people of any religion do, anywhere. Perhaps that's the case, after all. (Then, I might have to agree with you.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
Religion is and always has been heavily influenced by culture. In fact, it's probably more accurate to state that religion is an extension of culture.
The anthropologist in me would call it a "cultural construct." And up until maybe 4 years ago, I still held a flame for Christianity, saying that I wasn't ready to consider it a cultural construct... [C.S. Lewis and his "one true myth" kept me going for a while] but now, yes, I believe that is what it is. (And cultural constructs certainly have their adaptive value for human survival... so I'm not saying that it's inherently a bad thing.)

Sidenote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin worked to resolve what he saw as a paleontologist (evidence of evolution) with the religious teachings of his time. He was initially shunned, but over time he has become more and more respected, if not for his specific methods of resolution then for having the courage to work towards such a resolution.
I have to say that the stuff I read by Teilhard de Chardin (as recommended by Thomas Merton in some of his books) kicked ass. I still very much admire the Jesuits for their intellectual pursuit of faith... I found it so refreshing after so much time with people who didn't dare think to too hard or in-depth about what they believed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
The concept of an evolving god doesn't sit well with me, nor does our concept that we are gaining a greater understanding as time progresses. The first makes god a fuzzy being that has been around forever yet changes his stances in only a hundred years. The second allows for people to change god to what they feel it should be.
Yep, neither one sat well with me, either. This was the point I was coming to, when I started to lose my faith. It essentially indicates that God was/is constructed by humanity, not the other way around... and if that were true, then I wanted nothing to do with that kind of god. Way too fucking postmodern.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ustwo
His sermon was that you couldn't pick and choose from your religion, either you had faith or you didn't and when you start to pick and choose based on what you like and dislike you are no longer following the religion.
Looks like we're on the same page here, Ustwo. You're making more sense.
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Last edited by abaya; 11-14-2007 at 01:03 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:13 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya
But you might say, SM, that this is what all people of any religion do, anywhere. Perhaps that's the case, after all. (Then, I might have to agree with you.)
That's exactly what I was about ready to respond with To add onto that, the human animal is designed to classify. We're just...built that way. So, we like to classify ourselves as well. We also like to be a part of something. So, someone may not fall under the most common description of Christian, but they may also feel it is one of the closest descriptions of their own belief. So, they call themselves Christian.

Quote:
Sidenote: I have to say that the stuff I read by Teilhard de Chardin (as recommended by Thomas Merton in some of his books) kicked ass. I still very much admire the Jesuits for their intellectual pursuit of faith... I found it so refreshing after so much time with people who didn't dare think to too hard or in-depth about what they believed.
Merton and Teilhard de Chardin are two of my favorite Christian thinkers.

Quote:
Yep, neither one sat well with me, either. This was the point I was coming to, when I started to lose my faith. It essentially indicates that God was/is constructed by humanity, not the other way around... and if that were true, then I wanted nothing to do with that kind of god. Way too fucking postmodern.
I actually don't disagree with most of this, except the part of having a problem with it. I think god is both created and not created by humanity. Any particular concept of god is certainly created by humanity IMO, but I think we create god in an attempt to describe things that we feel but don't necessarily understand. To be overly descriptive, I think god is probably closely related to attempting to describe a biologically inherent sense of morality. This is why I take issue with the idea of a mythic god - of a person - but I don't see a problem with the concept of god in general. We use metaphors all the time, and I see no problem with using the god metaphor as well.

I think, overall, we probably agree more than we disagree...it's just that I have less of a problem merging the conclusions with some sort of post-modern spirituality.
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:44 PM   #83 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
To add onto that, the human animal is designed to classify. We're just...built that way. So, we like to classify ourselves as well. We also like to be a part of something. So, someone may not fall under the most common description of Christian, but they may also feel it is one of the closest descriptions of their own belief. So, they call themselves Christian.
Well, this is a very anthropological, culturally relative point of view... and from that point of view, I agree with it whole-heartedly. This is why I don't judge people necessarily for being religious, as I'm aware of the function that religion has for adaptation and evolution of the human species.

But personally, I judged myself for continuing to *want* to believe in something that I had (after so much seeking) unquestionably concluded was no more than a cultural construct... and that therefore, if I continued to call myself a "Christian," I would only be clinging on to a security blanket. Which may be enough for some people, but for my brain/sanity, it wasn't. I guess I'm not one for placebo effects... including a post-modern understanding of religion.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
I think, overall, we probably agree more than we disagree...it's just that I have less of a problem merging the conclusions with some sort of post-modern spirituality.
Most likely that's the issue, yes.
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Old 11-14-2007, 01:59 PM   #84 (permalink)
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Well, it's only a placebo effect if you don't teach other people that it is what it is. I have no interest in understanding god to be a constructed metaphor but not teaching that to others. I suppose I think religion should be seen as a grand parable, not just by those teaching it, but by those following it. It's the same as me liking Buddhist teachings but not believing in karma or reincarnation in any metaphysical sense.
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:16 PM   #85 (permalink)
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SecretMethod70
I suppose I think religion should be seen as a grand parable, not just by those teaching it, but by those following it.
Yes, but that's asking a lot from your average human; I see you (as well as myself) as being in a far more privileged position (whether we chose it or not), where you don't *really* need a comforting set of rules, assuringly strict rituals, the soothing nature of repetition, abandonment of self... just to stay sane enough to feed your family. Most people cannot put their whole faith in something which they know is truly just a story, not when they need to trust that story in order to cope with the stress of day-to-day life.

It's like what I say about Walmart... I can afford to not shop there, to have those kinds of "ideals," because I have the means to shop elsewhere, pick and choose what I want, seeing Walmart for what it is. Most people don't have that kind of privilege... they just need a place to shop that won't break their budget. I suppose that's how I've come to see religion.

On a slightly different note, I forgot to mention Simone Weil as a Christian thinker that I respected very much (still do). Some quotes from Gravity and Grace that seem applicable here... (I had forgotten how much I loved Weil; my apologies if I ramble too much here).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simone Weil
Religion in so far as it is a source of consolation is a hindrance to true faith: in this sense atheism is a purification. I have to be atheistic with the part of myself which is not made for God. Among those men in whom the supernatural part has not been awakened, the atheists are right and the believers wrong.

-----

Saint John of the Cross calls faith a night. With those who have had a Christian education, the lower parts of the soul become attached to those mysteries when they have no right to do so. That is why such people need a purification of which Saint John of the Cross describes the stages. Atheism and incredulity constitute an equivalent of this purification.

-----

To desire one’s salvation is wrong, not because it is selfish (it is not in man’s power to be selfish), but because it is an orientation of the soul towards a merely particular and contingent possibility instead of towards a completeness of being, instead of towards the good which exists unconditionally.

-----

A society like the Church, which claims to be divine is perhaps more dangerous on account of the ersatz good which it contains than on account of the evil which sullies it.

Something of the social labelled divine: an intoxicating mixture which carries with it every sort of licence. Devil disguised.
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Old 11-14-2007, 02:33 PM   #86 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Ustwo
You know whats more stupid? Not following a thread based on what I was responding to, which was Dave's little story as the 'only' Christian. Try reading it on context instead of doing your usual.
Did I say that????? Hmmmmm, lets see.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
This may be an example of a true Christian....if you've read the New Testament you'll understand why......
I often use words like "may", "possibly", or "might", simply because most things are open to individual interpretation.

However, as previously stated, the man in the story did live much closer to the way Jesus & the first century Christians did, than any modern day Christians do. The fact that you consider this man delusional isn't surprising either, most atheists consider anyone who believes in God or Christ to be delusional.
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:01 PM   #87 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by abaya
It's like what I say about Walmart... I can afford to not shop there, to have those kinds of "ideals," because I have the means to shop elsewhere, pick and choose what I want, seeing Walmart for what it is. Most people don't have that kind of privilege... they just need a place to shop that won't break their budget. I suppose that's how I've come to see religion.
...What? This almost seems like it belongs in the inane analogy thread, 'cuz I ain't seeing what possible point you were trying to make here.
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Old 11-14-2007, 05:32 PM   #88 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by abaya
Your post is a bit vague; I can't tell if you are replying to my post, or to someone else who mentioned picking and choosing, or just people in general?
Yes, it was vague, sorry about that. I'm not sure if the shoe fits, but if it does...
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Old 11-14-2007, 06:46 PM   #89 (permalink)
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Old 11-15-2007, 06:41 AM   #90 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
I always find it kind of odd when anyone coming from a contemporary christian perspective claims that you can't "pick and choose" when it comes to religion.
I think the problem is not 'picking and choosing', where that picking and choosing is a matter of principled interpretation. Very few Christians shun pork, and most don't require women to have long hair. But they don't simply say "Well, I just don't like that command." They have reasons for interpreting the scripture the way they do. But there are Christian who do pick and choose in a more capricious way -- who will ignore something simply because they don't like it. And that seems more problematic to me.
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Old 11-15-2007, 06:47 AM   #91 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by filtherton
I always find it kind of odd when anyone coming from a contemporary christian perspective claims that you can't "pick and choose" when it comes to religion.
HMm really? I find it hard that you would be able to pick and choose, it is the word of God is it not? If you really believe in God how could you basically say he's wrong and still believe he is this truly reightous and all knowing holy creator, perhaps I am missing something.
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:48 AM   #92 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by tiger777
HMm really? I find it hard that you would be able to pick and choose, it is the word of God is it not? If you really believe in God how could you basically say he's wrong and still believe he is this truly reightous and all knowing holy creator, perhaps I am missing something.
I see, so you follow the Old & New Testament, every word??? I hope you don't have any stubborn, rebellious children.......

Quote:
21:18 If a man have a stubborn and rebellious son, which will not obey the voice of his father, or the voice of his mother, and that, when they have chastened him, will not hearken unto them:
21:19 Then shall his father and his mother lay hold on him, and bring him out unto the elders of his city, and unto the gate of his place;
21:20 And they shall say unto the elders of his city, This our son is stubborn and rebellious, he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton, and a drunkard.
21:21 And all the men of his city shall stone him with stones, that he die: so shalt thou put evil away from among you; and all Israel shall hear, and fear.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21

The Bible is the word of men, who were inspired by God......
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:53 AM   #93 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by asaris
and most don't require women to have long hair.
Now thats religion I can agree with

"Something ain't right here, its like short hair on a pretty girl."
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Old 11-15-2007, 07:54 AM   #94 (permalink)
 
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i would like to take a moment and express my disdain for the expression

"pick and choose"

which is like saying "mass genocide" or "boeuf bourginon in a wine sauce"
and which is a kind of meme, i think, which i only encounter in conversations like this one.
i dont see how the claim that "you cant pick and choose" is any different from making claims about who is and is not "really christian"--the expression leans on membership rules and is not binding on anyone who does not also consider him or herself a member of the group. so those who are christians do not get to control how those who are not interact with biblical texts and this because outside your particular group, the rules you live by are arbitrary.

which i think is the same point dave is making above, phrased differently.
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:01 AM   #95 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy
i would like to take a moment and express my disdain for the expression

"pick and choose"

which is like saying "mass genocide" or "boeuf bourginon in a wine sauce"
and which is a kind of meme, i think, which i only encounter in conversations like this one.
i dont see how the claim that "you cant pick and choose" is any different from making claims about who is and is not "really christian"--the expression leans on membership rules and is not binding on anyone who does not also consider him or herself a member of the group. so those who are christians do not get to control how those who are not interact with biblical texts and this because outside your particular group, the rules you live by are arbitrary.

which i think is the same point dave is making above, phrased differently.
Yes Indeed, I often give examples, post stories or whatever just to try to get people to think, or see their reaction.......
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:18 AM   #96 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by roachboy
i dont see how the claim that "you cant pick and choose" is any different from making claims about who is and is not "really christian"--the expression leans on membership rules and is not binding on anyone who does not also consider him or herself a member of the group.
Clarification request. Do you mean that the opinions of ex-Christians re: doctrine no longer have validity once they have left the fold?
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:23 AM   #97 (permalink)
 
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no..quite the contrary.
what i meant was that the claim from those who identify as christian that "you cant pick and choose" means nothing except for others who identify as christian. there is no monopoly on interpretation of the texts. believers do not get to impose one.
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Old 11-15-2007, 08:58 AM   #98 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by roachboy
the claim from those who identify as christian that "you cant pick and choose" means nothing except for others who identify as christian.
Okay, thanks. I just can't remember when any of the self-identifying Christians on this thread used that term... it was mostly used by the critics/exes, such as myself. I must have missed something?...
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Old 11-15-2007, 09:21 AM   #99 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by asaris
I think the problem is not 'picking and choosing', where that picking and choosing is a matter of principled interpretation. Very few Christians shun pork, and most don't require women to have long hair. But they don't simply say "Well, I just don't like that command." They have reasons for interpreting the scripture the way they do. But there are Christian who do pick and choose in a more capricious way -- who will ignore something simply because they don't like it. And that seems more problematic to me.
I agree with you on both counts. There are important differences between picking and choosing and evaluating the information and coming to different conclusions than someone else. That being said, if your evaluation process is faulty, you won't necessarily come to very consistent conclusions.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tiger777
HMm really? I find it hard that you would be able to pick and choose, it is the word of God is it not? If you really believe in God how could you basically say he's wrong and still believe he is this truly reightous and all knowing holy creator, perhaps I am missing something.

Hmm really. You are missing something. What does "saying god is wrong" have to do with it? Religious thought rarely just appears fully formed, in fact it probably never does- it happens when people attempt to interpret the things that they find spiritually significant. When person A comes to a different conclusion than person B in the interpretation of, say, the bible, it has nothing to do with disagreeing with god, or thinking that god is wrong. It's just person A and person B seeing things differently. The idea that there is an infallible interpretation of the bible is purely a human one, as far as i've seen, if there is a god, he hasn't published the annotated version yet.
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:29 AM   #100 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by roachboy
there is no monopoly on interpretation of the texts. believers do not get to impose one.
Once again, I find this argument to be quite problematic because it allows anyone to believe anything they want and still claim it as Christianity (Or whatever religion you follow).
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Old 11-15-2007, 10:51 AM   #101 (permalink)
 
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Once again, I find this argument to be quite problematic because it allows anyone to believe anything they want and still claim it as Christianity (Or whatever religion you follow).
Well, looking at the history of Christianity (how the biblical canon was formed, how the creeds were developed, etc), one could say that this is exactly what happened. I don't expect you to agree, but if you read the history, it's a lot more problematic in itself than most modern Christians would like to think.
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Old 11-15-2007, 12:55 PM   #102 (permalink)
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Nevermind, abaya said it better.
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:26 PM   #103 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by filtherton
Nevermind, abaya said it better.
True Dat.....I'd love to borrow her thought processes for a while.......
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:52 PM   #104 (permalink)
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Old 11-15-2007, 01:55 PM   #105 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Infinite_Loser

...I'm guessing you've never heard of the sect of Nazarene, huh?

What is that? I haven't heard of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by roachboy
um...which teachings?
i assume that you split the gospels off from the epistles...
holy smokes, i went to church as a kid, but this terminology has me flumoxed. what is an epistle? (I know it is Latin (?) for letter, is that close?) and how does it differ from a gospel (which is as far as I understand a preaching, and a chapter in the Bible).

Last edited by Leto; 11-15-2007 at 01:59 PM.. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:02 PM   #106 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by Leto
what is an epistle? (I know it is Latin (?) for letter, is that close?) and how does it differ from a gospel (which is as far as I understand a preaching, and a chapter in the Bible).
The epistles and gospels are both only found in the New Testament. Epistles are the books of the New Testament that were originally written as "letters," usually to various new churches (most often by Paul; these are called the Pauline Epistles, including the General Electric Power Company--better known as Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, and Corinthians). The gospels are specifically 4 books in the New Testament, written about the life of Jesus. These are Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Hope that helps.
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Old 11-15-2007, 02:12 PM   #107 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by abaya
Hope that helps.

It does! It does!!

And I thought I was well read. harumph.
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Old 11-17-2007, 08:29 PM   #108 (permalink)
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We fly when we want,
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Old 12-16-2007, 04:05 AM   #109 (permalink)
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Hi,
I was lurking around and I found this thread and thought that, as a Christian, I might be able to shed some light on a few things. I haven't read all the threads, so I'll just respond to the ones that stuck out.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Ninja
I am a secular woman and I adhere to the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Does this seem unusual? I believe that my views would be the same even if Jesus never existed. I was raised in a secular household, so Christian views weren't pushed on me in any way, though I have studied the religion off and on since I was 11. There are many figures in history that are similar to Jesus: Gandhi, Buddha, etc. Basically, those people who put others above themselves. It is an admirable trait and a very rare one at that.
The difference between Jesus and saints like Gandhi is that Jesus claimed to be God. I don't really know much about the other religions, but from what I do know, there were only two other historical "saint" figures who claimed to be God: Krishna and Buddha; Krishna explicitly and Buddha implicitly. And, if you believe the reports, the three religious figures usually featured in Near Death Experiences are Jesus, Buddha and Krishna.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyborg Ninja
I do consider myself a secular humanist today, in case anyone's curious. It's funny how so many conservatives act like Humanism is Satanism somehow... but that's for another topic.
Christianity isn't opposed to the values of Humanism, but to the humanists' idea that these values can be brought to life by the means of human will. In Christianity we see everything good coming by God's will.


Quote:
Originally Posted by abaya
The thing that I can't get about Christianity is that basically, unless you're explicitly Christian (e.g. have done the salvation prayer, asked Jesus for forgiveness, yadda yadda), YOU ARE GOING TO HELL. No two ways around it. I have never been able to forgive Christianity for this fact, I suppose. Even if you are the most tolerant, open-minded Christian in the world, as long as you know that I have NOT said the salvation prayer, you are going to believe (at some gut level) that I am going to hell. I find that extremely disturbing, now that I have left the fold. What a way to live and interact with your fellow man!
I don't really see that as something supported by the Bible. I think you're misunderstanding the whole Heaven/Hell concept. Here's my take:

Hell is death. If you look to the ancient religions (ie. Greek/Roman Paganism, Judaism) there was no concept of Heaven or Hell, it was just unconditional Hell. And Hell (Sheol, Hades) wasn't really a place of torture, just a dark, shadowy existence. Hell is death, and life was of course preferable.

And still in Christianity there is no Heaven or Hell when our bodies shut down and we die, however there is has another level of life to consider: the spiritual life. God told Adam and Eve that they would die when they would die as soon as they ate from the Tree of Wisdom, but didn't they live for much, much longer? biologically they did, but spiritually they died on the spot. In a sense, they were were in Hell because Hell is death.

And, here's the beauty of Christ's message:

I am the Son of God, I am God, and I share in the Eternal Life. I am the Light that shines within mankind, the light can save you from the dark, shadowy existence of Hell. If you believe in my name, you will not only receive the life lost (because I will be born within you) but you will be called a Sons of God and become rightful heirs to God's Kingdom of Heaven.

That's basically the whole message of Christianity right there: Christ can be born within you. It's explained many ways - "born again", "born from above", "resurrected", "the second coming", "awakening" (it might not even be too much of a stretch to say "enlightenment" like the Buddhists, knowing that Christ is the Light) - but the message remains the same.

Last edited by Georgeous; 12-16-2007 at 04:09 AM..
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Old 12-16-2007, 08:32 AM   #110 (permalink)
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Yes it can be interrupted that way. As well several religion are quite similar when it comes to what the main person do. Although the revelations of John say something different about heaven and hell. Plus the new heaven or something (gotta have a look in the bible again before making any more comment about that). I guess that sounds right, when you see it that way (as second life can be account as the holy spirit that enters you body). Although I would of thought that when you die, you either transcend to either heaven or hell, depending on your actions on earth. As they mention in the bible that Jesus went to heaven after he transcend death itself and that he has open the gates for those who wish to go to heaven or something like that. But I could be wrong as I'm still reading the whole bible again after reading it several years ago when I was a kid.
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Old 12-28-2007, 09:52 AM   #111 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
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The several who made this up must have been extremely provocative, intelligent people, to cause intelligent people to be "talking" about it, CENTURIES LATER.
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Old 01-21-2008, 05:50 PM   #112 (permalink)
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Christianity as a belief system - not Philosophy

There seems to me to be some difference between belief systems and philosophy. It all starts (I think) as philosophy but then evolves into a belief system. I think that Christianity is too specific to be considered philosophy because it tries to tell people what to believe rather than telling people what to think. Some of the posters to this thread are obviously Christians who don't need to be told what to believe. They have derived their own beliefs from the teachings of Christ. That's different than having a bunch of beliefs crammed into your head as divine fact from an army of well-meaning Sunday school teachers who don't know the difference between an Epistle and a Gospel. (no offense the previous poster. I didn't know the difference either. ) But Christ's messages gets lost in such rigorous indoctrination.
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Old 01-25-2008, 03:33 PM   #113 (permalink)
still, wondering.
 
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Jesus came to me;
Shared some, um, philosophy,
And then came later.
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