Do Advanced ET Species Know We're Here??? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

DaveOrion · 09-10-2007, 11:38 AM

I thought I'd split the thread 'The Golden Record' before Crompsin has a cow. I'm not sayin he's a thread nazi or anything, I just dont want to see a fellow airborne brother completely stroke out.

I've taken the liberty of compiling the offending material into a barely cohesive blob of something.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

If they are out there, they already know how screwy we are. Our TV & radio signals have been beamed out into space, at the speed of light, for over 60 years (see 'Contact',w/Jodi Foster, Great Intro). These signals are traveling much faster than voyager.......God only knows how some ET will interpret that eclectic mix of humanities thoughts & ideas.......I hope the ET's are friendly, or we're royally screwed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

Listening is one thing, but holding a shiny flat round thing in your hand is another.

So is holding a slinky with your alien tentacle paws. Or an AK47 assault rifle.

...

'Sides, any intelligent life out there will eventually intercept rerun episodes of Friends and automatically determine that our entire planet is completely barren of intelligence.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I can see the insight one might gain from personal contact with an ET object, but voyager is simply traveling to slow, it hasnt even reached the next system, Alpha Centauri. TV & radio signals seem more likely to really reach out, over 60 light years in all directions so far. Thats already past the 100 closest stars in this galaxy.

Quote:

Originally Posted by albania

There's a definite limit to how well one can resolve a signal from background noise. My gut tells me that to get anything useful an alien species would have to be pretty damn close to Earth. That is not to say they wouldn't be able to detect signals that came from Earth, thus proving that we're an "intelligent" species, they just would never be able to make anything coherent out of them much less see a rerun of friends or what have you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I'd never say never, a highly advanced ET species may have technology that is capable of eliminating the background noise and the cleaning up the signals. We're pretty good at that right here on good ole mother earth.

Quote:

Originally Posted by albania

I didn’t thing I said never. But there are a few issues at hand here, first is that the universe is full of stuff, including background radiation that is everywhere even in sectors of "empty space". As photons travel through space they interact with what’s around them. They deviate in course they lose energy and they get absorbed. Second, even assuming there was a sector of empty space and direct path from your light beam to whomever you were transmitting to you'd still never be able to get the full message across at any distance. This is so because it is impossible to create photons that will travel perfectly parallel to each other and there are practical size constraints to making a receiver. As the distance to your intended target increases you'll need a bigger and bigger receiver to pick up the complete message. If you could travel all the way out to infinity you'd need an infinitely large receiver. All these things make my intuitive physicist side tingle; my gut feeling is that no one will be seeing crappy reruns of any show here on earth sixty light years away.

At distances of the earth and solar system even it's not as bad, but we have help we know the approximate location of the receivers and transmitters and of the stuff in between them, and all sorts of clever tricks make it possible for us to share information effectively.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Actually you did say "never".

Quote:
Originally Posted by albania
they just would "never" be able to make anything coherent out of them much less see a rerun of friends or what have you.

A quick look at wikepedia turned up this little fact,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI

Quote:
From 1995 through March 2004, Phoenix conducted observing campaigns at the 64-meter Parkes radio telescope in Australia, the 140 Foot Telescope of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in West Virginia, USA, and the Arecibo Observatory in Puerto Rico. The project observed the equivalent of 800 stars over the available channels in the frequency range from 1200 to 3000 MHz. The search was sensitive enough to pick up transmitters with power output equivalent to airport radars to a distance of about 200 light years.

If we have the ability to pick up a signal equivalent to an airport radar, from 200 light years away, then an advanced ET species could surely do the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by albania

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveMatrix
Actually you did say "never".

I should learn to read, yes you should have a problem when someone says never.

I talked to my Electricity and Magnetism professor. He said it was plausible to send a communication of some sort to places even a 100 light years away, we have dishes large enough on earth that could also pick up such a message assuming the power was sufficient. He said that since tv signals are not generally pointed into sectors of space that it wouldn't be likely for aliens to ever see any tv show.

While I do respect college professors, some may have closed minds when it comes to "new" ideas. I dont think its out of the realm of possibility, and it may be exceedingly difficult, just not impossible. Since he said it wouldn't be likely, that must also mean that theres a chance it is likely.

Ourcrazymodern? · 09-10-2007, 11:57 AM

Is this another parallel universe? It seems to me beyond doubt that others exist. It seems quite likely that we're all in the same boat. -I'd really like to read some alien science fiction.

I love you, DaveMatrix!

DaveOrion · 09-10-2007, 12:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ourcrazymodern?

Is this another parallel universe? It seems to me beyond doubt that others exist. It seems quite likely that we're all in the same boat. -I'd really like to read some alien science fiction.

I love you, DaveMatrix!

Indeed it is! (another parallel universe, only in reverse) Just another pretext to talk about silly ass possibilities that could never be......or could they???

I'm quite fond of you OCM, but dont say love, BOR will get jealous!!

I thought I'd throw this in, just because it has nothing to do with this thread, Ok, only slightly. I simply find Jodie Foster in this role incredibly hot..... intelligent, driven, sexy.....

Setting - The VeryLargeArray in New Mexico - BASE OF TELESCOPE - PRE-DAWN

Ellie wears a pair of headsets. We hear the SOUND of the COSMOS, the background wash of empty STATIC...

...and a faint BEEPING, FADING IN and OUT of reception.

Ellie slowly swims up to consciousness. After a moment her eyes open. She sits up --

Plan9 · 09-10-2007, 01:45 PM

MOOOOO!

It's a boy!

DaveOrion · 09-10-2007, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crompsin

MOOOOO!

It's a boy!

Well Said!!

SecretMethod70 · 09-10-2007, 11:56 PM

There is, in my mind, without a doubt, intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The odds that the intelligent life developed even remotely close to Earth and survived long enough to come up with the technology necessary to communicate with us, on the other hand, are ridiculously small. I forget the math, but I'm pretty sure that it's very unlikely that any other intelligent life exists within our specific galaxy, and communicating to other galaxies is a fantastic feat indeed.

In short, "they're" out there, but neither of us (humans or aliens) are likely to survive long enough to find out about it. It's truly a shame if you ask me.

DaveOrion · 09-11-2007, 12:42 AM

Its also possible that life is very common in the universe, yet we are simply unable to detect it. This is known as the Fermi Paradox....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SETI

Quote:

The size and age of the universe incline us to believe that many technologically advanced civilizations must exist. However, this belief seems logically inconsistent with our lack of observational evidence to support it. Either the initial assumption is incorrect and technologically advanced intelligent life is much rarer than we believe, our current observations are incomplete and we simply have not detected them yet, or our search methodologies are flawed and we are not searching for the correct indicators.

The more data thats gathered the more we will eventually know. It may seem that life here on earth is a stroke of luck, that all the right conditions just happened to fall in place, and that this is exceedingly rare. The rare earth hypothesis does have some hard facts to back it up.....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principle_of_mediocrity

Quote:

Earth is the right orbital distance from a non-binary, metal-rich star (the Sun) with stable radiation over an ideal frequency spectrum. If the Sun were larger, it would burn too quickly for life to evolve and if it were smaller, the Earth would need to be closer, making it tidally locked.
Earth has a nearly circular orbit. This condition is not rare in our solar system, possibly due to Jupiter's gravitational influence, but observations of exosolar planets suggest that it is rare in general.
Earth is a silicate rock with the prerequisite mass, plate tectonics, and iron core to protect developing life from radiation.
Jupiter and the other large outer planets shield the Earth from asteroids without destabilizing its orbit as well as shuttling water-rich comets from the outer solar system to the inner.
Earth has the perfect amount of water for a long-term active hydrosphere.
The Moon is anomalously massive, creating large oceanic tides, and stabilizing the Earth's axial tilt. According to Jacques Laskar's calculations this critical feature is otherwise impossible to achieve.
The manner in which the Moon was created, by collision of a mars-sized body with Earth, may have stripped the Earth of some of its crust material. This deficit of crust material allows plate tectonics. Without plate tectonics the Earth might undergo essentially complete volcanic resurfacing as Venus does.
The Earth's location within the galaxy is rare and important: "Not in the center of the galaxy, not in a globular cluster, not near an active gamma ray source, not in a multiple-star system, or near a pulsar, or near stars too small, too large, or soon to go supernova."
Earth's orbital and temperature stability over billions of years is exceedingly rare, as is its insulation from cataclysmic events.

This is in direct contradiction with SETI's guiding principle of mediocrity, which basically states that there is nothing special about humans or the earth.

I prefer to remain open minded and keep a 'wait and see' attitude. I certainly hope we're not all alone.

Midnight · 09-11-2007, 12:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I'm quite fond of you OCM, but dont say love, Midnight will get jealous!!

I beg your pardon? jealous of what? Um OCM, you can say whatever you like!

SecretMethod70 · 09-11-2007, 01:11 AM

I think maybe you misunderstand what I mean DaveMatrix. I don't think Earth is special at all, speaking literally in the universal sense. If every galaxy in the universe were to have one planet with intelligent life, that would be ~100 billion+ species of intelligent life! It would also still be spaced out enough that none of them would ever likely discover the other.

DaveOrion · 09-11-2007, 01:52 AM

I probably did misunderstand, I just woke up and quickly put together that incomprehensible pile of words.

Midnight I was only joking, as was OCM, but I will edit my post so I wont offend your delicate sensibilities. Jeeeeeezzzz.......

ASU2003 · 09-11-2007, 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I thought I'd throw this in, just because it has nothing to do with this thread, Ok, only slightly. I simply find Jodie Foster in this role incredibly hot..... intelligent, driven, sexy.....

Setting - The VeryLargeArray in New Mexico - BASE OF TELESCOPE - PRE-DAWN

Ellie wears a pair of headsets. We hear the SOUND of the COSMOS, the background wash of empty STATIC...

...and a faint BEEPING, FADING IN and OUT of reception.

Ellie slowly swims up to consciousness. After a moment her eyes open. She sits up --

That is one of my favorite movies. And she is so attractive in it. A lot of it has to do with her playing a nerdy space girl.

As to the original question, I doubt that an ET species would know that we are here. We haven't been here long enough. And if they were close enough to detect us, then we would have detected them probably.

But I do think that there is life elsewhere in the universe. Maybe even elsewhere outside of our solar system but close by in the Milky Way galaxy. But it probably isn't extremely advanced.

SecretMethod70 · 09-11-2007, 02:24 AM

Yeah, speaking in terms of life, period, as opposed to intelligent life, I wouldn't be surprised if life were quite abundant. I'd speculate that life has occurred on at least a couple bodies within our very own solar system at some time (but may not necessarily exist at this very moment). The trick is having the right conditions for life to develop beyond a few cells (assuming the biology is even similar to ours). And then, after the life develops to any sort of substantial size (think animal as opposed to bacteria), it has to then develop under the right conditions to become intelligent.

So life? All over. Intelligent life? Common on the cosmic scale, extremely uncommon on the human scale.

DaveOrion · 09-11-2007, 04:14 AM

This brings up the idea that life may have been seeded into the solar system by comets or asteroids carrying dormant bacteria, instead of spontaneously appearing from ancient pools of slime. This does seem more likely and would also mean that other parts of the galaxy may have been seeded in the same way. However each planet where life might have been seeded would evolve its own particular traits best suited for that environment.

I doubt it would be anything even close to star trek, where most species have human form with a funny looking head. We may not even know what to look for, since other life forms may not even be carbon based. I'm sure that the truth is much stranger than any fiction.

Ourcrazymodern? · 09-11-2007, 06:31 AM

Maybe we're the offspring of extra-terrestrial garbage...at least there's enough love to go around.

...Cool thread you've created, sir!

Racnad · 09-11-2007, 06:44 AM

At this point, all opinions how common or rare extraterristrial life is, intelligent ET life, and technologically advanced ET life is, and howrare or common earth-like planets are, are all speculation.

Another thing to consider is that all man-made radio transmisions are less than 100 years old. This means that unless technologocally advanced ETs are with 100 light years, or have some sort of listening post that converts electromagnetic transmissions to sub-space communicaitons or whatever (to borrow pure sci-fi term from Star Trek), the ETs don't know about us.

Ustwo · 09-11-2007, 07:39 AM

Any alien life will most likely be carbon based because carbon based life has the best 'chemistry' going for it.

Odds are that if we were to find an alien 'earth' the amazing thing wouldn't be the differences but the similarities.

For example, despite the last common ancestor the marsupial and placental mammals being nothing much more than a shrew, both types had/have evolved into all types of animals which fill the same niche and due to natural selection fill the niche with the same form. The Tasmanian wolf wasn't a canine but it looked like one because that 'form' fits the role for example. In fact the only major form that didn't show up among marsupials was the gazelle type, which instead has had the role filled by kangaroos. Though even there, we have rodents in Africa that while not related to kangaroos for 10's of millions of years, and whos last common ancestor didn't look like a kangaroo at all, developed the same form.

So while an alien planet may well have really cool unique forms of life, odds are it will also have a flying squirrel form, a dog form, a cat form, a horse form, a tree form, a moss form, a fish form etc, which while completely different in chemistry or evolutionary path, is doing, acting, and living the same way as their earth equivalent.

Racnad · 09-11-2007, 09:30 AM

Another example are whales and dolphins which strongly resemble fish but are not related to fish at all. That suggests that any other planets with higher forms of life (even if it has a radically different chemistry and is based on a liquid other than water) are going to have fish or animals that look like fish.

DaveOrion · 09-11-2007, 09:24 PM

I suppose this an example of convergent evolution, where animals that are not closely related develop similar characteristics, while adapting to similar environments. Another convergent pair of species would be the dolphin and the ichthyosaurs, one being a mammal and the other reptilian, yet both developed an almost identical body style, 100 million years apart.

Since we have only planet to base our theories on, all this is only speculation as Racnad said. Other planets may evolve similar evolutionary convergence, or go in some direction that know one ever dreamed of. They could not all be stranger than we imagine, they could be stranger than we can imagine.

The_Jazz · 09-12-2007, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Any alien life will most likely be carbon based because carbon based life has the best 'chemistry' going for it.

Odds are that if we were to find an alien 'earth' the amazing thing wouldn't be the differences but the similarities.

For example, despite the last common ancestor the marsupial and placental mammals being nothing much more than a shrew, both types had/have evolved into all types of animals which fill the same niche and due to natural selection fill the niche with the same form. The Tasmanian wolf wasn't a canine but it looked like one because that 'form' fits the role for example. In fact the only major form that didn't show up among marsupials was the gazelle type, which instead has had the role filled by kangaroos. Though even there, we have rodents in Africa that while not related to kangaroos for 10's of millions of years, and whos last common ancestor didn't look like a kangaroo at all, developed the same form.

So while an alien planet may well have really cool unique forms of life, odds are it will also have a flying squirrel form, a dog form, a cat form, a horse form, a tree form, a moss form, a fish form etc, which while completely different in chemistry or evolutionary path, is doing, acting, and living the same way as their earth equivalent.

That makes the assumption that the conditions would be similar to Earth, which I don't necessarily buy, at least as far as physical forms go. If you compare land-based and water-based life forms here, the functions that they perform are shockingly similar but the forms are dictated by the conditions - which is why sharks and dolphins have such similar body shapes. The simpler the life form, the more likely that there will be something similar-looking here. There will be an algea-form and a moss form, most likely tree- and grass-forms as well as fish-forms (making some assumptions) that look similar to what Earth has come up with. I doubt that anyone would ever be able to find something completely analogous for every niche between two planets.

Behaviors are a different issue, and we've seen that repeated over and over in the fossil record. Large plant-eaters emerge along with forms to hunt them, scavenge off the remains and on down.

Ustwo · 09-12-2007, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

That makes the assumption that the conditions would be similar to Earth, which I don't necessarily buy, at least as far as physical forms go.

While we can speculate about different chemistries supporting life, we can't really narrow down in the least how it could work practically. While I don't think all life must be in the Goldilocks zone, I think that there is an upper and lower limit to how much energy must be present.

Odds are we will be long dead (hell perhaps extinct) before these questions can be answered.

DaveOrion · 09-13-2007, 01:13 AM

Well, this sure became boring.....this may help.....

How'd that last one get in there??? Strange.......

Ustwo · 09-13-2007, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

How'd that last one get in there??? Strange.......

Is it just me or did the last one have a date with the airbrush?

DaveOrion · 09-13-2007, 09:00 AM

Yes, I'd say that ones airbrushed, but it does give her a nice look. Reminds me of a 'glamor shot', not that she needs it.........

Ustwo · 09-13-2007, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Yes, I'd say that ones airbrushed, but it does give her a nice look. Reminds me of a 'glamor shot', not that she needs it.........

Well I could score with the woman in the first two photos, the last one isn't talking to me

DaveOrion · 09-13-2007, 10:16 AM

I understand completely

Ourcrazymodern? · 09-14-2007, 11:56 AM

I suspect the ETs are in the same boat.

That Foster woman is uber-cool.

DaveOrion · 09-14-2007, 12:47 PM

The ET's airbrush their females pics too???

That may be a universal constant...........

ottopilot · 09-15-2007, 02:53 AM

Quote:

Do Advanced ET Species Know We're Here???

yes.

DaveOrion · 09-15-2007, 08:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ottopilot

yes.

Care to expand on that???

Johnny Rotten · 09-18-2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Care to expand on that???

It depends on who you ask and where you get your information. Some people quantify the subject in terms of the Drake Equation and Fermi's Paradox, and are content with keeping the topic well within philosophical or mathematical constraints.

Take Von Neumann machines, for example. In this hypothesis, a given civilization sends out self-replicating devices. These devices, in multiplying, each branch out in different directions. The end result is a geometric spread that covers a given space, like a galaxy, within ten thousand years. The size of the space is finite while the devices replicate, so it takes only one civilization and one self-replicating probe to blanket an enormous expanse. Given the results of the Drake Equation, it is highly likely that this phenomenon has already occurred in our own cosmic neighborhood.

However, I was not satisfied with essentially abstract musings. I dug into the UFO mythology, and while Sturgeon's Law holds sway (90% of everything is crap), I have come across some very compelling puzzle pieces. While it became quickly evident that photographic evidence is uniformly uninformative, and that there are a lot of kooks out there who need psychiatric help, there are some intriguing points of reference that endure in a sea of questionable information. Specifically, the work of Dr. Steven Greer and Stanton Friedman.

Friedman works from logical deduction and has a bulletproof scientific pedigree. Greer interviews scientists and members of the armed forces who reveal independently corroborated data -- people of professional standing who have nothing to gain and everything to lose in telling their stories.

Basically, it's like this. In the mid-1940s, our understanding of the history of the world began to split off in two different directions. On the one hand, you have the conventional wisdom: that there may be intelligent life out there, but it's never stopped by for a visit. On the other hand, you have a hidden history, where first contact has already been made, in the wake of a crash in New Mexico in June of 1947.

In this unconventional history, its revelations have been kept secret because the fruits of alien technology would bring about the global collapse of the petroleum industry and the electrical grid. Here, this group is known as the "energy cartel," led primarily by eschatological tyrants with a knee-jerk penchant for compartmentalized secrecy and a phobic response to the potential parameters of alien power -- power in terms of technology, spirituality, and sheer knowledge of the Universe. Here, benevolent aliens do not intervene because they follow a Prime Directive of sorts; their history of millions of years has taught them that if a civilization cannot lift itself to the stars by its own bootstraps, it is not cut out to stay there. Besides, "Take me to your leader" doesn't work when planet Earth is cut up into religious, political, and cultural fiefdoms. There is no true leader to approach in the first place.

So my answer is yes. After extensive research on the subject, I have come to the conclusion that they know we are here -- but humanity is not collectively prepared for the introduction.

Yakk · 09-24-2007, 08:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

It depends on who you ask and where you get your information. Some people quantify the subject in terms of the Drake Equation and Fermi's Paradox, and are content with keeping the topic well within philosophical or mathematical constraints.

Take Von Neumann machines, for example. In this hypothesis, a given civilization sends out self-replicating devices. These devices, in multiplying, each branch out in different directions. The end result is a geometric spread that covers a given space, like a galaxy, within ten thousand years. The size of the space is finite while the devices replicate, so it takes only one civilization and one self-replicating probe to blanket an enormous expanse. Given the results of the Drake Equation, it is highly likely that this phenomenon has already occurred in our own cosmic neighborhood.

The 10,000 years is questionable -- but if it takes 1000 years to move to a nearby star, 20% of probes that are sent make it and find suitable material to produce an industrial base, 10,000 years to bootstrap from a probe to an industrial base capable of producing a probe every 1000 years, and the industrial base collapses after an average of 10,000 years...

Then every 21,000 years the number of probes double.

There are about 100 billion stars in the milky way, which is less than 2^30. That means it takes less than 630,000 to have as many probes as there are stars in the milky way.

The universe is on the order of 10 billion years old. So this is 0.00000063% of the lifetime of the universe -- the blink of an eye.

So what are the odds that an intelligent, spacefaring race would be more advanced than us, but not sufficiently more advanced than us that they have already colonized the entire galaxy?

Of course, the above math could be tweaked -- what if it takes 1 billion years to bootstrap from a probe to an industrial base capable of building probes?

[SNIP misquoted text]

Ustwo · 09-24-2007, 12:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yakk

In this unconventional history, its revelations have been kept secret because the fruits of alien technology would bring about the global collapse of the petroleum industry and the electrical grid. Here, this group is known as the "energy cartel," led primarily by eschatological tyrants with a knee-jerk penchant for compartmentalized secrecy and a phobic response to the potential parameters of alien power -- power in terms of technology, spirituality, and sheer knowledge of the Universe. Here, benevolent aliens do not intervene because they follow a Prime Directive of sorts; their history of millions of years has taught them that if a civilization cannot lift itself to the stars by its own bootstraps, it is not cut out to stay there. Besides, "Take me to your leader" doesn't work when planet Earth is cut up into religious, political, and cultural fiefdoms. There is no true leader to approach in the first place.

So my answer is yes. After extensive research on the subject, I have come to the conclusion that they know we are here -- but humanity is not collectively prepared for the introduction.

Ok this is where my bullshit detector starts to fluctuate a bit. Now I'll start with saying its a plausible story in that IF some sort of alien technology showed up then their may be people and reasons to cover it up.

But here is the rub. Why never any details of this supposed technology?

The petroleum industry is always a bugaboo for some reason. If every conspiracy theory about them were true, they have single handedly set back the progress of Western civilization by decades if not a century at least in energy use. Yet this same industry, which is able to hide such things, isn't able to stop the eminently disputable man made global warming scare which could effect its profits? I mean they can keep great scientists from speaking the truth about UFO's but can't seem to shut up a few tree hugging professors and shut up a washed up VP?

Lets think of it this way. The oil industry has some great minds working for them, not every scientist wants to make their daily bread by begging for grant money from the government, many go into private industry. While working for the oil industry I will assume one doesn't sell ones soul, and if there was a clean, renewable, cheap fuel wouldn't you want to tell the world? Plus telling the world these days, again, is simple. If some great advance were to show up anonymously on the net one day, I'd be quick to change my opinion, but so far no.

Then comes the 'well it is getting out but slowly' type of theory. People look at the current advances and think 'something' happened that made technology, which was somewhat stagnant for 2 thousand years, suddenly explode with PC's and jet planes. The problem is this explosion started not in the 40's but in the late 1870's. Evolution, electricity, geology, chemistry, medicine, all began taking great strides forward, and you can see what led to what. So either this has been going on for over 100 year or its just that people started taking science 'seriously' and the scientific method is to credit the technology explosions.

Give me SOMETHING concrete, something I can look at and say 'that ain't right', something verifiable.

Yakk · 09-25-2007, 10:55 AM

Sorry UStwo -- what you quoted was a misquote by me. It was actually "Johnny Rotten" who wrote that.

DaveOrion · 09-25-2007, 12:10 PM

Wow....Ustwo made a mistake??? I suppose he's actually a human being after all

.....Too Strange

Ustwo · 09-26-2007, 07:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Wow....Ustwo made a mistake??? I suppose he's actually a human being after all

.....Too Strange

Well I checked my starchart and it told me not to trust what other people quoted but I just didn't listen!

And dave if you read what Yakk posted closely you will see who made the mistake

Johnny Rotten · 10-01-2007, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Ok this is where my bullshit detector starts to fluctuate a bit. Now I'll start with saying its a plausible story in that IF some sort of alien technology showed up then their may be people and reasons to cover it up.

But here is the rub. Why never any details of this supposed technology?

Well, I think I may have overstated the case. I should clarify -- there is a certain lurid nature to the "energy cartel" theory that makes it interesting to me, if for nothing more than its dramatic nature. However, certain individuals have come forward with some compelling arguments about why advanced technologies -- regardless of their origin -- would be suppressed.

In a nutshell, the prediction is that a revolution in the energy sector would lead to the collapse of the current paradigm, which would have wide-ranging and unpredictable effects on the global economy and even society.

Stan Deyo has an interesting take on this. Skip to 59:21 in this video for the interview:

UFOs Are Here ! - The Deyo Diaries Volume 1 with Stan Deyo

.

Note that Deyo does not pinpoint the technologies as coming from alien civilizations. He does not discount the idea, but he doesn't feel it's necessary. This segment is about twenty minutes long. I find the details of his professional career to be hard to swallow, but I think it's important to see the whole interview, to get the context for his extrapolations. It was conducted thirty years ago, yet it is (in my opinion, at least) surprisingly prescient.

Quote:

Give me SOMETHING concrete, something I can look at and say 'that ain't right', something verifiable.

http://www.americanantigravity.com/categories/Research/

Ustwo · 10-02-2007, 06:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Johnny Rotten

Well, I think I may have overstated the case. I should clarify -- there is a certain lurid nature to the "energy cartel" theory that makes it interesting to me, if for nothing more than its dramatic nature. However, certain individuals have come forward with some compelling arguments about why advanced technologies -- regardless of their origin -- would be suppressed.

In a nutshell, the prediction is that a revolution in the energy sector would lead to the collapse of the current paradigm, which would have wide-ranging and unpredictable effects on the global economy and even society.

I just don't buy it. If tomorrow you worked out a 'Mr. Fusion' it would be an amazing boon to the economy. Imagine if energy costs went to zero? Its already been demonstrated that high energy costs hurt the economy, but I can't see the reverse doing the same. Sure it would close down refineries and oil wells, but thats a small price for free energy.

Really if I wanted to invent a plausible reason for suppressing alien technology it would be due to the danger they might pose, not because of the economy. If it was very easy to turn your 'Mr. Fusion' into a 'Mr. Fusion Bomb' then there would be a legitimate reason to suppress it, but that angle is rarely advanced. I think the reason for it is that the concept of the government protecting its citizens and the world from direct harm is boring. Its much more sexy to be talking about deeply woven conspiracies.

Quote:

Note that Deyo does not pinpoint the technologies as coming from alien civilizations. He does not discount the idea, but he doesn't feel it's necessary. This segment is about twenty minutes long. I find the details of his professional career to be hard to swallow, but I think it's important to see the whole interview, to get the context for his extrapolations. It was conducted thirty years ago, yet it is (in my opinion, at least) surprisingly prescient.

Well I agree that it wouldn't be necessary, but that doesn't make it true either.

Quote:

http://www.americanantigravity.com/categories/Research/

[/quote]

I'm not sure what thats suppose to prove. Its writing style reminds me of conspiracy or communist web sites where they attempt to confuse the issue using vocabulary the average reader will not understand in order 'overwhelm' the reader into assuming their assumptions are correct by making the reader feel inadequate of understanding. The difference is that unlike a conspiracy or communist site, where I do understand the vocabulary, this one I do not. Too many acronyms and " This paper summarizes how electrodynamics and gravitation are coupled in a Hamiltonian formulation followed by an appropriate quantization scheme." type of articles. Mind you I am not a stupid man but I am not a physicist, as such I can't tell if the papers are either highly technical or just technobable worthy of star trek. In that I will reserve judgment.

What I don't see is how this ties in with an alien technology. If I take it at face value, something I am very skeptical about and perhaps I will do a bit of research into the site itself for fun, its simply a lot of theoretical physics. The fact that I don't understand it doesn't make it alien based, most people wouldn't understand my 'language' I use at work to do my job either.

Johnny Rotten · 10-02-2007, 11:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

I just don't buy it. If tomorrow you worked out a 'Mr. Fusion' it would be an amazing boon to the economy. Imagine if energy costs went to zero? Its already been demonstrated that high energy costs hurt the economy, but I can't see the reverse doing the same. Sure it would close down refineries and oil wells, but thats a small price for free energy.

Really if I wanted to invent a plausible reason for suppressing alien technology it would be due to the danger they might pose, not because of the economy. If it was very easy to turn your 'Mr. Fusion' into a 'Mr. Fusion Bomb' then there would be a legitimate reason to suppress it, but that angle is rarely advanced. I think the reason for it is that the concept of the government protecting its citizens and the world from direct harm is boring. Its much more sexy to be talking about deeply woven conspiracies.

The thing is, coal and oil form the backbone of global transportation and energy delivery. It's a multi-trillion dollar industry, and by far the most profitable one in the world. If you replaced it with wireless transmitters, millions of people across the globe would be out of work and would not have the training to join the new paradigm. The massive unemployment would lead to financial chaos and civil instability. Or so we're told.

Quote:

I'm not sure what thats suppose to prove. Its writing style reminds me of conspiracy or communist web sites where they attempt to confuse the issue using vocabulary the average reader will not understand in order 'overwhelm' the reader into assuming their assumptions are correct by making the reader feel inadequate of understanding. The difference is that unlike a conspiracy or communist site, where I do understand the vocabulary, this one I do not. Too many acronyms and " This paper summarizes how electrodynamics and gravitation are coupled in a Hamiltonian formulation followed by an appropriate quantization scheme." type of articles. Mind you I am not a stupid man but I am not a physicist, as such I can't tell if the papers are either highly technical or just technobable worthy of star trek. In that I will reserve judgment.

Deyo actually did an interview with those guys, and he uses a lot of analogies to explain what's going on: http://www.americanantigravity.com/a...iew/Page1.html

It's an audio interview, about 45 minutes long. He also has a presentation floating around on Google Video that has more examples and analogies.

Quote:

What I don't see is how this ties in with an alien technology. If I take it at face value, something I am very skeptical about and perhaps I will do a bit of research into the site itself for fun, its simply a lot of theoretical physics. The fact that I don't understand it doesn't make it alien based, most people wouldn't understand my 'language' I use at work to do my job either.

Deyo mentions the connections in the interview above, connections he seems less hesitant to make than in 1977.

But I do agree that we're straying from the topic. For some interesting testimony on UFOs, I would direct your attention to

this

and

this

.

Slims · 10-02-2007, 11:55 AM

Ok, here's my take:

Regular TV signals probably aren't reaching far enough out into space that they would be intercepted by anything that wasn't deliberately looking very intently at our particular planet.

However, While TV signals are designed to remain earthbound, sattelite uplinks are not, and they are very directed, high power, and aimed 'up.' You also have the cross talk between sattelites which both originate in space and are directed at another body in space. There is a lot of spillover that an intelligent race who bothered with such things could pick up. If they were within range.

I don't think we have really started emitting interceptable signals until the dawn of sattelite communication.

Of course, those signals have to actually reach out and get intercepted by little green men light years away. I don't think it is plausible to suggest that they are in our solar system. Why would they travel so far to hide out? The only thing our solar system has that other star systems don't is a planet full of people, squirrels, etc. Earth is the only possible attraction. If they were already here I think we would know.

I don't think interstellar space is where aliens would be found either: It is devoid of resources and not very hospitable. Why would they hang out there? In order for them to be in open space, they would have to be in the middle of a LOOOOONG journey, and they would probably not change a decades-long course for an unknown planet that is still many light-years away.

So, our signals would have to reach an occupied system that has aliens whose evolutionary development is at least comprable to our own (they have to be listening, anyways). But we are listening also, and if there is a highly advanced form of life out there that bothers to listen to radio waves, it is probably because they also use radio waves, and we should have been able to hear that. Especially since they would have to be within a couple light-decades in order for our signals to reach them.

Furthermore, in order for them to respond to our signal and come scare nutjobs with their UFO's, they would have to be no more than half the distance away from us that our radio waves have traveled (assuming they can travel at the speed of light).

So basically, they would have to be within 15 light-years of us, and capable of travelling at light-speed, and willing to do-so at the first hint of radio-signals from Earth, and they would not be creating their own radio emissions....or we would have noticed.

There aren't many stars within 15 light-years, and even less with habitable planets. What are the odds? Yep. Pretty much zero.

Furthermore, if a civilization is advanced and spans many star-systems, etc. then we would probably have been able to see cyclic-variations in all the little sub-cultures left behind. Think about it: as they spread out across the galaxy, each planet would be essentially isolated from the others by sheer distance...which leaves plenty of room for social upheaval, wars, etc. It is a process that would require many thousands of years, and endless opportunity for radio emissions, nuclear explosions, etc. Yet we look into space and see no indication of this at all.

I am sure life exists elsewhere in the universe, the universe is too big a place for it not to.

However, it is also too big for us to 'bump' into aliens.

By the time an 'alien' race is bathed by our radio-signals and is able to stop by for a chat, we will probably be long gone.

Johnny Rotten · 10-02-2007, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greg700

I don't think we have really started emitting interceptable signals until the dawn of sattelite communication.

Of course, those signals have to actually reach out and get intercepted by little green men light years away. I don't think it is plausible to suggest that they are in our solar system. Why would they travel so far to hide out? The only thing our solar system has that other star systems don't is a planet full of people, squirrels, etc. Earth is the only possible attraction. If they were already here I think we would know.

I think that's a very good point, and I struggle a lot to fit this rational conclusion into things like the Disclosure Project testimonies, Stanton Friedman's lectures, and various other bits and pieces that rise above the sea of nutjobbery and snake oil salesmen. For every person who has a believable story to tell, there's seven people saying that I can rub a magnet on a tumor to make it go away, and two more guys who say the whole UFO phenomenon is a hoax to swerve our attention away from relatively mundane, classified government projects.

Given that intelligent, spacefaring life exists elsewhere, how could they possibly have found us amidst all these stars and galaxies? It's not just finding a needle in a haystack -- it's like looking for a specific needle in a stack of needles.

From here, I can only speculate, and I've come up with two conclusions. One, that life on this planet was installed long ago by an alien race. Or two, that there is a network of probes or scanners canvassing the galaxy, looking for specific signs of life or intelligent life. Beyond that, I can't come up with anything that doesn't sound strangely mystical.

From what I've read and from the videos I've seen on the Internet, though, physical distance does not seem to be a problem. FTL travel is a matter of essentially skipping through space like a stone on the surface of a pond. And I've read of outright portals through space and even time, but that stuff is like pulp comic book material to me. It's way beyond plausability and can only be taken as an entertaining possibility.

Until about six months ago, I'd never seriously pondered any of this. But I found myself with some additional free time on my hands, and I've had a love for science fiction since childhood. I've come to the conclusion that 90% of UFOlogy is crap, but just as Project Bluebook had a percentage of cases that evaded any explanation, there are a few stories that have the ring of truth. And the more I research, the more vast that truth appears to be.

09-10-2007, 11:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Is this another parallel universe? It seems to me beyond doubt that others exist. It seems quite likely that we're all in the same boat. -I'd really like to read some alien science fiction. I love you, DaveMatrix! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

09-10-2007, 01:45 PM	#4 (permalink)
Plan9 I Confess a Shiver	MOOOOO! It's a boy! __________________ *Whatever you can carry.* "You should not drink... and bake."

09-10-2007, 11:56 PM	#6 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	There is, in my mind, without a doubt, intelligent life elsewhere in the universe. The odds that the intelligent life developed even remotely close to Earth and survived long enough to come up with the technology necessary to communicate with us, on the other hand, are ridiculously small. I forget the math, but I'm pretty sure that it's very unlikely that any other intelligent life exists within our specific galaxy, and communicating to other galaxies is a fantastic feat indeed. In short, "they're" out there, but neither of us (humans or aliens) are likely to survive long enough to find out about it. It's truly a shame if you ask me. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-11-2007, 01:11 AM	#9 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	I think maybe you misunderstand what I mean DaveMatrix. I don't think Earth is special at all, speaking literally in the universal sense. If every galaxy in the universe were to have one planet with intelligent life, that would be ~100 billion+ species of intelligent life! It would also still be spaced out enough that none of them would ever likely discover the other. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-11-2007, 01:52 AM	#10 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I probably did misunderstand, I just woke up and quickly put together that incomprehensible pile of words. Midnight I was only joking, as was OCM, but I will edit my post so I wont offend your delicate sensibilities. Jeeeeeezzzz....... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-11-2007, 02:24 AM	#12 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Yeah, speaking in terms of life, period, as opposed to intelligent life, I wouldn't be surprised if life were quite abundant. I'd speculate that life has occurred on at least a couple bodies within our very own solar system at some time (but may not necessarily exist at this very moment). The trick is having the right conditions for life to develop beyond a few cells (assuming the biology is even similar to ours). And then, after the life develops to any sort of substantial size (think animal as opposed to bacteria), it has to then develop under the right conditions to become intelligent. So life? All over. Intelligent life? Common on the cosmic scale, extremely uncommon on the human scale. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

09-11-2007, 04:14 AM	#13 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	This brings up the idea that life may have been seeded into the solar system by comets or asteroids carrying dormant bacteria, instead of spontaneously appearing from ancient pools of slime. This does seem more likely and would also mean that other parts of the galaxy may have been seeded in the same way. However each planet where life might have been seeded would evolve its own particular traits best suited for that environment. I doubt it would be anything even close to star trek, where most species have human form with a funny looking head. We may not even know what to look for, since other life forms may not even be carbon based. I'm sure that the truth is much stranger than any fiction. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-11-2007, 06:31 AM	#14 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	Maybe we're the offspring of extra-terrestrial garbage...at least there's enough love to go around. ...Cool thread you've created, sir! __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

09-11-2007, 06:44 AM	#15 (permalink)
Racnad Crazy Location: Washington State	At this point, all opinions how common or rare extraterristrial life is, intelligent ET life, and technologically advanced ET life is, and howrare or common earth-like planets are, are all speculation. Another thing to consider is that all man-made radio transmisions are less than 100 years old. This means that unless technologocally advanced ETs are with 100 light years, or have some sort of listening post that converts electromagnetic transmissions to sub-space communicaitons or whatever (to borrow pure sci-fi term from Star Trek), the ETs don't know about us.

09-11-2007, 07:39 AM	#16 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Any alien life will most likely be carbon based because carbon based life has the best 'chemistry' going for it. Odds are that if we were to find an alien 'earth' the amazing thing wouldn't be the differences but the similarities. For example, despite the last common ancestor the marsupial and placental mammals being nothing much more than a shrew, both types had/have evolved into all types of animals which fill the same niche and due to natural selection fill the niche with the same form. The Tasmanian wolf wasn't a canine but it looked like one because that 'form' fits the role for example. In fact the only major form that didn't show up among marsupials was the gazelle type, which instead has had the role filled by kangaroos. Though even there, we have rodents in Africa that while not related to kangaroos for 10's of millions of years, and whos last common ancestor didn't look like a kangaroo at all, developed the same form. So while an alien planet may well have really cool unique forms of life, odds are it will also have a flying squirrel form, a dog form, a cat form, a horse form, a tree form, a moss form, a fish form etc, which while completely different in chemistry or evolutionary path, is doing, acting, and living the same way as their earth equivalent. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-11-2007, 09:30 AM	#17 (permalink)
Racnad Crazy Location: Washington State	Another example are whales and dolphins which strongly resemble fish but are not related to fish at all. That suggests that any other planets with higher forms of life (even if it has a radically different chemistry and is based on a liquid other than water) are going to have fish or animals that look like fish.

09-11-2007, 09:24 PM	#18 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I suppose this an example of convergent evolution, where animals that are not closely related develop similar characteristics, while adapting to similar environments. Another convergent pair of species would be the dolphin and the ichthyosaurs, one being a mammal and the other reptilian, yet both developed an almost identical body style, 100 million years apart. Since we have only planet to base our theories on, all this is only speculation as Racnad said. Other planets may evolve similar evolutionary convergence, or go in some direction that know one ever dreamed of. They could not all be stranger than we imagine, they could be stranger than we can imagine. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-13-2007, 01:13 AM	#21 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Well, this sure became boring.....this may help..... How'd that last one get in there??? Strange....... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-13-2007, 09:00 AM	#23 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Yes, I'd say that ones airbrushed, but it does give her a nice look. Reminds me of a 'glamor shot', not that she needs it......... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-13-2007, 10:16 AM	#25 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I understand completely __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-14-2007, 11:56 AM	#26 (permalink)
Ourcrazymodern? still, wondering. Location: South Minneapolis, somewhere near the gorgeous gorge	I suspect the ETs are in the same boat. That Foster woman is uber-cool. __________________ BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

09-14-2007, 12:47 PM	#27 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	The ET's airbrush their females pics too??? That may be a universal constant........... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-25-2007, 10:55 AM	#33 (permalink)
Yakk Wehret Den Anfängen! Location: Ontario, Canada	Sorry UStwo -- what you quoted was a misquote by me. It was actually "Johnny Rotten" who wrote that. __________________ Last edited by JHVH : 10-29-4004 BC at 09:00 PM. Reason: Time for a rest.

09-25-2007, 12:10 PM	#34 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Wow....Ustwo made a mistake??? I suppose he's actually a human being after all .....Too Strange __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

10-02-2007, 11:55 AM	#39 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Ok, here's my take: Regular TV signals probably aren't reaching far enough out into space that they would be intercepted by anything that wasn't deliberately looking very intently at our particular planet. However, While TV signals are designed to remain earthbound, sattelite uplinks are not, and they are very directed, high power, and aimed 'up.' You also have the cross talk between sattelites which both originate in space and are directed at another body in space. There is a lot of spillover that an intelligent race who bothered with such things could pick up. If they were within range. I don't think we have really started emitting interceptable signals until the dawn of sattelite communication. Of course, those signals have to actually reach out and get intercepted by little green men light years away. I don't think it is plausible to suggest that they are in our solar system. Why would they travel so far to hide out? The only thing our solar system has that other star systems don't is a planet full of people, squirrels, etc. Earth is the only possible attraction. If they were already here I think we would know. I don't think interstellar space is where aliens would be found either: It is devoid of resources and not very hospitable. Why would they hang out there? In order for them to be in open space, they would have to be in the middle of a LOOOOONG journey, and they would probably not change a decades-long course for an unknown planet that is still many light-years away. So, our signals would have to reach an occupied system that has aliens whose evolutionary development is at least comprable to our own (they have to be listening, anyways). But we are listening also, and if there is a highly advanced form of life out there that bothers to listen to radio waves, it is probably because they also use radio waves, and we should have been able to hear that. Especially since they would have to be within a couple light-decades in order for our signals to reach them. Furthermore, in order for them to respond to our signal and come scare nutjobs with their UFO's, they would have to be no more than half the distance away from us that our radio waves have traveled (assuming they can travel at the speed of light). So basically, they would have to be within 15 light-years of us, and capable of travelling at light-speed, and willing to do-so at the first hint of radio-signals from Earth, and they would not be creating their own radio emissions....or we would have noticed. There aren't many stars within 15 light-years, and even less with habitable planets. What are the odds? Yep. Pretty much zero. Furthermore, if a civilization is advanced and spans many star-systems, etc. then we would probably have been able to see cyclic-variations in all the little sub-cultures left behind. Think about it: as they spread out across the galaxy, each planet would be essentially isolated from the others by sheer distance...which leaves plenty of room for social upheaval, wars, etc. It is a process that would require many thousands of years, and endless opportunity for radio emissions, nuclear explosions, etc. Yet we look into space and see no indication of this at all. I am sure life exists elsewhere in the universe, the universe is too big a place for it not to. However, it is also too big for us to 'bump' into aliens. By the time an 'alien' race is bathed by our radio-signals and is able to stop by for a chat, we will probably be long gone. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence