Jenny Hatch

Since High Thief mentioned the Canadian Obstetrics society little edict on freebirth in the first post in this thread, perhaps this will get us back on track in our discussion of freebirth.

When I heard that the Canadian Docs had sent it along to the press, I decided to write a blog post response. I sent it along to the Canadian Docs, and all of the national newspapers in Canada. Here is the text of my response, you have to click on this link to see the pictures and other links:

Canadian Obstetricians have declared Unassisted Birth Dangerous


Doctors blast DIY deliveries

"The risks of giving birth without a skilled attendant "outweigh any possible benefits" and practitioners are needlessly endangering themselves and their unborn babies, according to the advisory, which is the strongest public stance against the practice by a group of medical professionals to date."

(sarcasm implied)

Man, I am so glad these docs took the time to weigh everything and decide that my lifestyle is a threat to my children. I never would have known that giving birth alone was so horrible if they had not taken the time to talk about it and decide to make a public statement. It's not like the media or two hundred years of fear based victorian ingnorance has ever made it seem like birth was a great mystery only to be guarded by the doctor on his noble steed of protection and heroic interventions.

(And just a leetttle more sarcasm)

And all I have ever heard from Radio, Television, and media in general is what is normal and natural in childbirth. Watch any soap opera today and what you will see is mothers giving birth without drugs or medical interventions, and then breastfeeding for the long haul. "This segment brought to you by La Leche League." If those obstetricians in Canada had not told me that what I was doing was dangerous, I may have never even guessed for a minute that husband/wife hombirth was deadly for me and my newborn, because all I have ever been exposed to and watched on television and in the movies was pure natural drug free birth. And all that has ever been promoted by commercials, advertising, and the powers that be is pure natural family living, because we all know chemical free living is best for the child, and all that the government, the medical profession, and advertising want to do is make certain that I welcome a healthy child into my life, because we ALL know that a healthy baby is all that matters.

Whew, I feel better to be so informed. Thanks. Without you people pointing it out, you know, taking the time to say something out loud, in public, I never would have figured it out!

I guess now I should just dump my 19 years of research and bow down to the medical gods, because hey, they said so. And everyone knows that doctors always practice evidence based medicine, and they know everything, because dangit, they are full fledged SCIENTISTS, and we all know it takes years and years of Big Pharma Brainwashing to get to that level of Credibility!


OK, I've had my sarcastic rant. Back to the point of this blog post:

The incoming president of the Candadian equivalent of ACOG, The Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada (SOGC), Dr. Guylaine Lefebvre claims that those promoting Freebirth are "tragically misinformed."

And a Dr. Senikas claims that quote: "Unassisted childbirth is unsafe − period," says Dr. Vyta Senikas, SOGC's associate executive vice-president.

"Senikas says the people advocating "freebirthing" are tragically uninformed and are promoting high-risk, dangerous behaviour disguised as sound medical advice.
"You have to look at the source. These are not trained and educated medical professionals," Senikas says.


"Look at the source"....hmmmm....seems judgemental to me. Sure, I'm a mother who only had two years of schooling beyond high school, in Musical Theatre at that....so I guess I am a know nothing cretin, who has absolutely no right to make health care decisions for and in behalf of my children. The thousands of hours I have spent researching childbirth, teaching childbirth classes, attending births, giving birth to my own five children, writing my three books, all largely about birth, organizing a birth conference, and now this blog, again devoted to the promotion of home birth, all of this leaves me "tragically uninformed" about .....birth.

(just a little more sarcasm)

WOW! Thanks Dr. Senikas. I had no idea I was such a retard when it came to birth. Without you pointing out my deficiencies as an uncredentialed, uninformed, tragic sort of person promoting something that is so dangerous and deadly to me and my child, I may have gone ahead and done something really stupid like get pregnant with my sixth child, and then actually had the gall to do my own prenatal care, and then, (NO, someone stop her before she does it again....we have to SAVE HER FROM HERSELF!!!) I may have given birth in my bedroom as my great grandmothers did for thousands of years before I was born.

My great, great grandmother gave birth to fourteen children in her Michigan Farmhouse. She was just dang lucky to be alive....it was all just a stinkin' coincidence that she made it through birth number one at home, much less, birth number fourteen because home birth is so deadly and dangerous, as every doctor and enlightened person knows.

The reporters found it necessary to quote the infamous Dr. Crappen in another article found here

"Dr. John Crippen, a doctor in the U.K. who writes an award-winning blog, has reacted angrily to freebirth. saying "giving birth is the most dangerous thing that most woman will do during their life.""

As I have said recently, Dr. C left three little words out of his famously quoted statement.
Doc, you left out: "In the Hospital"

"Giving birth IN THE HOSPITAL is the most dangerous thing that most woman will do during their life"


Yet it appears that the Canadian Nanny state Medical Machine has some issues regarding their own birth practices.

Doctors call for national birthing strategy

While spewing bogus stats on us Free Birthers, the real story is their own carefully collected statistics, which paint a dire picture for birthing women all over Canada.

QUOTES:

"Canada needs a national birthing strategy to combat a poor international record for safe deliveries, says the outgoing president of the Society of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists of Canada."

"Last June, when the most recent OECD statistics were released, Canada had stumbled, ranking 11th for maternal mortality rates; 14th in perinatal mortality and 21st for prevalence of infant mortality.

"Safety for women having babies is something we expect. That we have concerns is worrisome," said Dr. Don Davis, the society's outgoing president.
About 80 per cent of births in Canada are attended by an obstetrician."



Here are some facts for you condemning doctors and your cult of professionalism.....

The most educated women are giving birth at home alone.

The most healthy women are the ones who look at the so called "free" health care you provide, and say "no thanks".

The most protective parents are the ones who have read the research, which many doctors do not even bother to review, and have decided the Medical Professions own statistics are what make the case for Free Birth. Yeah, its true docs. We have found your statistics and practices WORRISOME for years, and we have bowed out and said NO to your drugs, surgery, and scare "Cover your medical butt" prenatal care.

The article ends with these sobering words:

"Fewer and fewer family doctors are willing to live the lifestyle of obstetrics," said Black. "The traditional way - where the doctors is the only one who can deliver a baby - is going to have to change. Nurses and midwives are very capable of delivering low-risk babies."

I would add that parents themselves are highly capable of delivering their own children. To me it would be the height of irony for the Cult of Professionals backed up by government and the courts to outlaw Unassisted Birth, fully knowing and accepting that the birth machine is murdering and maiming healthy mothers and babies all over the world.

All we are asking for is the freedom to give birth where we feel comfortable.

What do you care how we give birth? Obviously the health of the family is not a concern or you would have changed your birth machine to cater to the real needs of mothers years ago. But a monopoly is so fun...makes one feel so powerful....And those credentials....That big name plate on the wall, with all of those signatures declaring doctor so and so worthy to cut and drug willy nilly.

Well guess what?

The jig is up.

We parents have called your bluff.

Giving birth is no longer the medical mystery of our grandmothers day when grandma took her gas like a lady and spread her legs for the forceps and the knives. And then thanked the doc for the thrill of having him yank the baby out while she soundly slept.

We Freebirthers demand to give birth privately, in the sanctity of our own homes.

Awake, aware, and ready to welcome our babes alone.

Would you deny me my rights of self determination as a mother?

If you do, I will fight you to the highest courts in the land.

Doesn't it seem just a tad insane for our society to allow mothers to murder their own children during pregnancy with abortion, protected by the courts and screaming feminists in the streets and yet if we desire to give birth privately, we become worthy of the highest scorn and condemnation of the medical profession?

Crazy!

Media Centre
Media Advisories
SOGC Annual Clinical Meeting, Ottawa, June 21 to 26, 2007

The Dangers of Unassisted Childbirth

Jenny Hatch

Posted by Jenny Hatch at June 21, 2007 7:22 PM



Now, why don't we stop talking about me and my lack of credentials and get to the heart of this debate.....


WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHERE THE BABES ARE BORN???

What do you guys think?

Jenny

ngdawg

Again....When are you actually going to answer the concerns and questions people have put to you in stead of continuing this constant anti-doctor, anti-any establishment diatribe?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Cynthetiq

I'm a little disappointed that you have decided to post a trolling response to the discussions put forth by some of our most prominent members. Again, if you can't sway people by your logic, you decide to push the emotional buttons in order to get more responses. I call, "If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit."

If this was to be moderated, the thread should be locked at that point. At this point, you're practically trolling. If you wish to continue this discussion, then please, feel free to engage those that are trying to discuss this with you. I stated this in another thread about Atheism:

That said, I will again, engage you with discussion, it is up to you to discuss.

First, allow me to interject something that I try not to interject into any argument, but the ultimate answer to this is, God or Luck whichever you choose, since not a single one of us gets to choose, where we are born. We don't get to choose our mother or father, the country, or time period.

For the sake of this discussion the answer is: Responsible parents.

Please note the qualifier, responsible.

But as within all societies, people of higher stature government, religious level, social statuses, bend and twist this into various pretzels.

Our government in the US at times will force someone to be "responsible."

If you are an incompent parent, the children will be taken by CPS/DHS.

Your comparison to how births show on TV and movies is laughable. That is not real life nor is it even close to it. If you think for a minute that it is so, then you should take a look at some reality TV, which again is more hyperbole of life than it is "reality."

If a parent whiches to birth their child in the water with sharks and states that their religion deems sharks are gods and they decide the fate of the child to live or die at that point. I'm sure that some government officials or some society persons will be concerned and wish to intervene on behalf of the child.

So in the face of high infant mortality rates from wherein medical aid and/or lack of midwife present, people will take issue with that.

Really? Does a couple years in musical theater studies count as being educated? What is your definition of "educated" mean? Or do you discount them because they are within the "ivory tower" and not within your reach as you've posted within your blog? And how do you qualify educated? Is it because you have the most books? Been tested and reviewed by peers?

Please define EDUCATED as it means to you. Because in my world and most others it means:

I'm trying very carefully to frame this not as a personal attack, and I ask that other moderators that have been in this thread give guidance as well.

How can we ignore your lack of education in this decision making process? You tout that it is the MOST educated women, yet, you yourself don't have the most education within this thread. Stating that you are a mother of 5 does not give you any real education edge. I live in a Jewish neighborhood and if that was the qualification of education, then there are many women here with more "education" than you. But that's the card you will pull out of your ass right? "I've had more babies, so I'm more educated in the birthing process."

Again Bullshit.

You've created a small little patch of logic for you to defend, where in nothing is within the scope of discussion. Until you are willing to step foot outside of that small space, there is no discussion.

To bring this post to full circle, if you cannot or will not engage in discussing what is brough forth, then you are noting more than a troll. We don't like trolls and we don't let them live among us. The challenge is back to you. I've asked you several questions to return your initial one.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ngdawg

Just for the record, "murder" is an illegal act. Your views on abortion notwithstanding, it is not murder as it is a legal procedure, nor is that view prudent to the discussion.


I am making the assumption your eldest is 19. Since you lack credentials, yet call yourself a 19-year 'expert' and did not birth all 5 at home, one must draw that conclusion.
Guess that makes me a 15 year 'expert' on twins? And a 10 year expert on fertility treatments.
Yes, your grandmother was lucky. You asked for no anecdotal evidence, yet she's been brought up at least 3 times. Both my grandmothers had their total of 6 kids in hospitals. My parents are in their late 70's. Surprise! No one had any longterm ill effects.

What would you consider 'the most educated women?' Those that read your site or those with college degrees? The truly educated make decisions that are best for them and their babies. That may or may not mean home birth and I'm sure it doesn't mean going it totally alone and not seeking the best guidance for their health during and after pregnancy. DIY is great for installing an air conditioner...
For all your trolling, ranting etc., you have yet to answer any concerns that have been brought forth:
Breech
Multiples
Nutritional needs
Congenital maladies
Gestational problems, ie; diabetes, toxemia
Self-diagnosing
Larger babies
Shock
Premature labor

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Cynthetiq

Bolded is mine.

I can't recall you making that admission at all, especially since you've navigated this discussion to ngdawg's point without addressing the complications. I don't think that anyone here disagrees that women can give birth without medical intervention. It is when medical intervention is needed, that is the question.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jenny Hatch

Sometimes when debating a topic you have to start with the end in mind. If you look at my posts, you see that I carefully went from introducing Obstetrician Michael Odents work in my first post and by page six I was talking about sexually fulfilling childbirth.

I said in my first post,

"but if you people on this forum are into the evolution of human sexuality then you need to do some research on Freebirth.

Michael Odent, a french obstetrician has written some fascinating books and articles on the scientification of love. Here is a basic primer article

Freebirthing fits perfectly into this paradigm. When faith overcomes fear in birth, amazing amounts of joy bless the family."

I know it feels like I have been darting around the issues, but that is only because we have been talking apples and oranges. Many of you here have been talking about medical birth and medical statistics. I am talking about Freebirth. They are really two very different topics. Perhaps someone should start a thread on the merits of hospital birth.

As I said in my first post, if you are interested in our human family evolving to a higher level sexually, then you really should check out freebirth. The cool thing is that recent scientific discoveries have provided explanations for this amazing process of procreation. Our job as thinking human beings is to line up birthing realities with what the research has shown.

Dr. Odent wrote a book called The Scientification of Love.

Amazon describes the book this way:

'Why do all cultures ritually disrupt the first contact between mother and new-born baby? Why has there hitherto been an evolutionary advantage in developing human potential for aggression rather than the capacity to love? Until recently love was the realm of poets, artists and philosophers. Latterly it has been studied from multiple scientific perspectives. Michel Odent argues that the specialist approach has overlooked the importance of love as a potential new strategy for human survival, and that the old survival strategy, the domination of nature and other human groups, is no longer appropriate. By weaving together data from a multitude of disciplines, Michel Odent, is able to offer a number of insightful, and exciting explanations, and makes the case for the adoption of radical new strategies for human survival.'


Many of the ideas in that book are outlined in his article that I linked to in my first post. Here are some quotes from that article:

Primal Health (This is also why most freebirthers refer to themselves as Primal Mothers engaged in Primal Mothering)

..
REFERENCES

Akil, H., Watson, S. J., Barchas, J. D., & Li, C. H. (1979). Beta-endorphin immunoreactivity in rat and human blood: Radioimmunoassay, comparative levels and physiological alterations. Life Sci., 24,1659-1666.

Almeida, J. A. G. (2001). Breastfeeding: A nature-culture hybrid. Rio De Janeiro: Editora Fiocruz.

Csontos, K., Rust, M., Hollt, V., et al. (1979). Elevated plasma beta-endorphin levels in pregnant women and their neonates. Life Sci., 25, 835-44.

Diamond, J. (1991). The rise and fall of the third chimpanzee. Radius.

Hastrup, K. (1992). A question of reason: Breast-feeding patterns in seventeenth- and eighteenth-century Iceland. In V. Maher (Ed.), The anthropology of breastfeeding: Natural law or social construct? Oxford: Berg Publishers.
Krehbiel, D., Poindron, P., Levy, F. & Prud'Homme, M. J. (1987). Peridural anaesthesia disturbs maternal behavior in primiparous and multiparous parturient ewes. Physiology and Behavior, 40, 463-72.

Marques, N. M., Lira, P. I., da Silva, N. L., et al. (2001). Breastfeeding and early weaning practices in northeast Brazil: Longitudinal study. Pediatrics, 108(4), E66.

Nissen, E., Uvnas-Moberg, K., Svensson, K., Stock, S., Widstrom, A. M., & Winberg, J. (1996). Different patterns of oxytocin, prolactin but not cortisol release during breastfeeding in women delivered by caesarean section or by the vaginal route.Early Human Development, 45, 103-18

Odent, M. (2003). Birth and breastfeeding. Clairview (British edition of The nature of birth and breastfeeding. Westport, CT: Bergin and Garvey, 1993.)

Odent, M. (2001). New reasons and new ways to study birth physiology. Int J Obstet & Gynecol, 75 (Suppl 1), S39-S45

Odent, M. (1999). The scientification of love. London: Free Association Books.

Odent, M. (1977). The early expression of the rooting reflex. Proceedings of the 5th International Congress of Psychosomatic Obstetrics and Gynaecology, Rome. London: Academic Press, 1117-1119.

Personal correspondence with Dr. Guonjon Guonason, retired obstetrician. Reykjavik, May 1993.

Rivier, C., Vale, W., Ling, N., Brown, M., & Guillemin, R. (1977). Stimulation in vivo of the secretion of prolactin and growth hormone by beta-endorphin. Endocrinology, 100, 238-241.

Rousseau, J. J. (1998). Les confessions. Paris: Larousse.

Zanardo, V., Nicolussi, S., Giacomin, C., Faggian, D., Favaro, F., & Plebani, M. (2001). Labor pain effects on colostral milk: Beta endorphin concentrations of lactating mothers. Biology of the Neonate, 79(2), 79-86.




It has been said that I was ignoring questions posed to me by various people because I did not answer specific questions about so called safety of homebirth. And I would say the same in return....the ultimate priority of Dr. Odent: The priority now should be to rediscover the basic needs of women in labor (Odent, 2001). has no only been completely ignored by modern medicine, it has been tucked away as completely irrelevant to the topic at hand.

What are the basic needs of women in labor and are they being met by allopathic birth?

Well, all we have to do is look at what is happening in a woman's body hormonally and we get some clues as to what would be an ideal birthing situation. Freebirthers believe, and it is in fact backed up by scientific evidence so carefully collected by the french pioneer Odent, that birth is a sexual event. The final act in the three act play that started with conception, moved through pregnancy, and then led to the birth of a child.

We believe that birth is safest for both the mother and the baby when these hormonal realities are respected and honored.

Because the medical profession has no respect for this reality, and in fact frustrates it at every turn when a woman is in labor at the hospital, we unapologetically promote the facts of childbirth. Namely that birth should ideally be conducted in the privacy and sanctity of a husband and wifes bedroom and that the same energy that put the child into the womb will also safely conduct that child out of the womb.

My biggest concern with the recent media interest in Freebirth is that some powerful people may be pulling strings behind the scenes After ignoring us for so very long (We did have a New York Times article appear in the media five years ago, but we have basically been ignored), why all of this sudden interest? I believe the doctors are about to push for legislation that would ban our movement outright, and are looking for "public support and indignation" to cut us off and provide the momentum to get some major laws passed.

So, we go back to the question, "who gets to decide where the babies are born?" Doctors? Judges? Parents? Government?

When I say the most educated women are giving birth at home alone, I mean that women who have studied the primal mothering literature have made the logical conclusion that giving birth alone makes sense hormonally.

As for what would designate a person as a doctor in the philosophy of mothering, I would suggest someone start a new thread discussing what would consitute the criteria for said advanced degree. It is really not pertinent to our discussion about wether or not freebirth is defensible.

As high thief said in the post that started this thread,

"is this concept really defensible?" Freebirth is not only defensible, it is desire-able, do-able, and scientifically plaus-ible. I also happen to believe it is the future, and that we are on the cusp of a huge societal shift towards evidence based birthing.

But this will not be possible if the doctors are able to ban it outright.

Some doctors are calling for a one hundred percent c-section rate. They really are. No Joke.

So yes, I get a little bit emotional, sarcastic, and even hostile when I hear that various obstetric societies are talking about how dangerous and deadly we are. And some docs are even throwing out words like Manslaughter and Litigation.

It puts my panties in a wad.

As for answering all of your individual questions about various birthing issues. Nope, not going to take the time to even try.

This is my argument and I am sticking with it. Birth is sexual. And no, there is not a whole heck of a lot that anyone could throw at me that could convince me otherwise. (Believe me, my parents have already tried) You know? It would be so refreshing if someone for once would say...."that is the coolest thing I have ever heard....TELL ME MORE!!!" Doesn't feel like we have too many of those on this site, but LOTS of couples are getting really interested in that message.

Birth is a sexual event, and as such it should be done privately and the doctors backed up by the courts and the government need to get the heck out of my bedroom.

Jenny Hatch

tecoyah

Its interesting Host...uh...I mean Jenny, That though I myself have expressed my interest,and in fact posted That I too have a bit of experience with unassisted homebirth, you have chosen to completely ignore my input in favor of militantly disregarding all opinions counter to your own. You expect members here to take the time to debate this with you, or at a minimum respect and consider your comments and beliefs, yet wont even "take the time to try" discussing the reservations people have toward the obvious issues such a descision entails.
This is literally the definition of trolling....I again ask you to evaluate the way your message is delivered, if you wish to be taken seriously. Otherwise , very soon you will force this thread into the archives of closed oblivion by becoming a target of ridicule....and little more.

ShaniFaye

When a self proclaimed "educated woman" refuses over and over again to answer concerns about something she's "supposed" to be an "expert" in, because she doesnt like the fact that we are not "oooohhh tell me more about orgasming during labor", Im wondering where YOUR maturity is?

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

No one, not even the board owner has that liberty. One can start with the end in mind, but once the OP has posted their thoughts, and people add to it, it takes a life of its own. Sometimes going in the way intended, but sometimes turning into something of a different animal, nothing like any poster imagined.

I'm not going to even read your pithy post. You have no respect to even read or address the other members who have engaged you in discussion, I don't see why they should bother to read yours.

I'm assuming this is the only reason you exist on this forum. You have little to no interest in being a community member.

Those of us who participated in a DHS/CPS thread last year recall people identical to you in thought. It brought many trolls to our forums who were not interested in discussing such a great deabatable topic. They came from time to time and wasn't interested in discussing merits of any side, but to just use our forum for a blasting chamber.

A shame that it got locked and sequestered into a space where the information isn't helpful or available to anyone but the staff.

I'd hate to see that happen to this thread.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Dilbert1234567

i was 10 pounds 11 ounces, my mom is just over 120 pounds, if we were not in a hospital, there is no doubt in my mind neither of us would be here today.

__________________
Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

Jenny Hatch

Have you and your wive spent any time thinking about what it would mean to you personally to have some legislation passed that would make it impossible for you to give birth at home unassisted?

That you as Father, could be picked up by the police and thrown in jail for practicing medicine without a license?

That you could be sued for Medical Neglect for your child?

That your beautiful wife could be forced into the hospital to be poked, prodded, drugged, cut, sutured, and made "all better" if you choose to have another child?

I promise you, this is what is being being planned and plotted in smoky back rooms of obstetric societies even as I write.

I will NOT tone down my rhetoric. If we freebirthers do not go on the offensive and use logic and very loud internet SCREAMING, we are going to lose every thing that is precious to us.

We are already up against a wall of public indignation and disbelief.

When I started down this activist path in 1997, I did not set out to win a popularity contest. I didn't organize the conference and write my books saying to myself....This is my ticket to being LIKED!!!

If I wanted to do that I would have written book number 238 on why Epidurals are better than the sex that got me pregnant.

When Dr. Crippen posted his blog entry, which has been so dutifully reported by a breathless and alarmist press, this was the "testing the waters" moment. An anonymous doctor in the UK throws around words like Manslaughter, and then sits back to see how it resonates with the public. And like he was Moses coming down the mountain with a new set of commandments, the press has quoted him as if he was God himself.

I'm telling you, we are about to be BANNED! And if that happens, it will bring on open season on birthing women in a way that has never before been done in our world. Remember the witch hunts of the dark ages? Five million women burned. Do you envision our law enforcement going around to peoples homes and handcuffing freebirthers and forcibly taking them to the hospital to give birth? I do. And it is already happening.


This is a parental rights issue. Goggle Laura Pemberton to get different bloggers and activists comments on her case.

I promise you, if your wife was the one being forced to have a section, with police coming into your bedroom, I believe it would turn you into an activist within moments of it happening.

DON'T wait for that to happen, to your family or to anyone else who is passionate about birthing at home.

We should be free to give birth anywhere we want, in peace, with no concern of an overzealous medical society or legal profession just waiting to jump. For years we have been under the radar and under the law. Simply because no law has been written addressing our movement. I believe we need that law for protection, and I am not willing to wait for it to become a law of prosecution.

It is heading that way....can't you see that? Can't you feel it? We are moving towards a medical police state, and in some places are already there.

As I said, it pushes every single liberty loving button in my body to have these medical people throwing out legal terms. I can live with the scorn and rejection from society, have done so for many years.

But you Obstetricians, do NOT come into my bedroom and force the cult of professionalism on me and my children.

Jenny Hatch

ngdawg

He took the time to become a certified midwife, meaning he could hire himself out if he wanted. What's your certification?

Nevermind....I give up...having a intelligent conversation-one of give and take- is not one of your strong suits...

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

abaya

Jenny, you've done it. You've convinced me.

You've convinced me to NEVER, EVER consider Freebirthing.

Good work. Looks like you're accomplishing the exact opposite of your goals.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

highthief

Actually, this encapsulates how I feel about things.

D-I-Y

I'm a pretty handy guy. I've built fences, decks, interlocking walkways, installed floors, and any number of other things. But you know what, I know there are people better at this than I am and I generally do the DIY thing because it saves me a few bucks and the worst that can happen if I screw it up is my deck isn't perfectly level.

I (and the overwhelming majority of the world with access to healthcare) feel the same way about DIY childbirth, because the consequences of making an error are infinitely worse than an unlevel floor, to two (or sometimes more) lives.

I won't change your mind, I know. I doubt anyone hear even will get you to question things. You beieve in this the way maybe you believe in the coming Apocolypse. It's quite faith-based and arguing with facts is not going to work.

__________________
Si vis pacem parabellum.

The_Jazz

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

xepherys

Alright Jenny, I give... what's your angle? It can't possibly be convincing the world that freebirthing is the one true path. If it is, you are a failing evangelic in need of some history lessons. When one preaches, rather than enlightens, it is generally met with disdain. I think, as has been said before, you need to start directly answering some questions if you actually would like to make any headway at all.

Apples to oranges? Yes, freebirthing is quite different (in many respects) than giving birth at a hospital. However, it is not an apples/oranges discussion. We are talking about two opposing beliefs that directly relate to each other, but you are not holding up your end of the debate... and understand that this IS a debate.

Let me see...

Freebirthing(good):

Orgasmic birth (undocumented by any important studies as far as I can tell)
Mother's control (a myth, since mother's have control in a medical environment as well)
No drugs (you can skip the drugs in a hospital as well)

Freebirthing (bad):
Greater chance of death or serious injury to mother OR child


Hospital birth (good):

sterile environment
educated nurses and doctors
option for C-section if complications develop
option for drugs administered if need be
immediate post-natal care if the child has a problem
immediate testing done to ensure baby's health

hospital (bad):

its expensive
uhm... it costs more money
you need to give them dollars?


I really can't see a comparative benefit to freebirthing. Frankly, the additional risk alone is not worth it. You complain of 200 years of medical establishment saying that mother's can't give birth safely at home. Hey, guess what? They can't, statistically speaking. In countries or regions where healthcare or something else prohibits medically-assisted birth, the infant mortality rate is significantly higher. Can you give me, the logically-minded person, statistics that show otherwise?

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Dilbert1234567

jenny, i encourage you to take a critical thinking class at your local community college, then reevaluate your stance. learning to critically think will change your life for the better. you may find that your views change, or, they may stay the same, either way, you will learn to defend your argument with logic, not emotionally charged words.

feel free to browse this webpage, http://www.criticalthinking.org/index.cfm

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Sticky

Let's start with this again.

Here is the study that the Guardian article mentioned was covered in the New Scientist.
(I added color to highlight specifics)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Abstract
I did not point out any specifics last time, but I will this time.
Is this an ideal study? Some would say yes some would say no. Maybe the sample size is not large enough. Mayeb there were other significant differences between the groups of women.
But...do the women members of this religious group resemble those Jenny describes as part of her group?
- "these women received no prenatal care and gave birth at home without trained attendants"
- "The mothers tended to be
- aged 20-34
- white
- married
- have minimum of high school education

The study of this group vs. the state of Indiana showed that
- The Perinatal Mortality rate was 3 times higher in this group than in the state.
- The Maternal Mortality Rate was "an astounding ninety-twofold higher rate"

The study concluded that:
"The risk of perinatal and maternal death is greatly augmented even in the US when women do not utilize obstetric care."


Jenny quoted an anecdote of Laura Pemberton.
I decided to look up that case and found the judge's decision in a suit brought against the hospital by Pemberton.
http://faculty.smu.edu/tmayo/pemberton.pdf

It is actually quite an interesting situation, I would suggest reading it (11 pages).
There is alot more backgound information in there than in the source Jenny quotes from.
Here are some selected quotes

Note in the following bacground section
"Most caesarian sections are performed using a horizontal incision. Ms. Pemberton's 1995 caesarian, however, was performed using a vertical incision. Moreover, the vertical incision extended well beyond a traditional low vertical incision up into the thickened myometrium."
"Ms. Pemberton attempted to find a physician who would allow her to deliver vaginally. She was unable to find any physician who would do so. Every physician she contacted advised her that, because of the type of caesarean section she had undergone previously, vaginal delivery was not an acceptable option."
This is in fact the case that we are arguing about.
This is the situation that we are concerned about.
What if something happens? There is no trained person there to recognize that something is going wrong.
How would the mother know that something is wrong?

To say that a mother is trained becuase of previous births is fine if you then want to recognize the level of training (i.e. the number of births attended).
OK so a mother who has been through 4 previous births has more practical training than a doctor or Midwife who has yet to help deliver a single (or 4) babies.
Aside from the fact that when you step into the hospital about to give birth anybody who will be helping you like has been part of more deliveries than you, doctors and midwives have educational training in this filed that an expectant mother has never had.

The law currently supports those who give birth at home without any obstetric care or prenatal care.
People can do as the feel.

This does not refute the obvious fact that giving birth at home without any obsteric care is more of a risk than with obsteric care (at home or in a hospital).
Who decides what level of risk is acceptable? for now the parents do unless you go to a hospital (in the state of Florida and probably others as well) in the middle of delivery and present with a certain hisotory and symptoms.

You the parents decide what level of risk is acceptable to you.
But don't pretend that it is not riskier at home (or anywhere for that matter) without obstetric care and certainly without prenatal care.

__________________
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Jenny Hatch

Abaya,

I am not here to convince anyone of anything. No one in the freebirth movement has ever said that unassisted birthing is for every single woman in the world. I am here to make the case that freebirth is DEFENSIBLE, which was the original question posted by High Thief.

Jenny

I find that statement, arguing with facts, a little bit simplistic. I have tried to explain, mostly to you, that this is a multi issue movement, with women of all shapes and sizes doing it themselve for a variety of reasons. It is easy to dismiss all of the arguments against UC presented here because I fought with my husband, the person I love and respect most in the world, about it for years.

As a highly intelligent and thoughtful man, he provided me with every male argument possible, and any he missed were happily provided by his mother and my mother, and after that, every single health care professional in my personal sphere painstakingly and I might add, condescendingly, took the time to let me know what a total loser I was as a mother. If you want to do the same, get in line.....

Many, I would even say MOST of the women who have recently come looking for information are in fact mothers who did not want to have a second c-section. Read these letters from a group of women in Australia, which has a 40% C-section rate right now, and you will get a feel for why women are giving birth alone.

This article comes from the Courier Mail in Australia, and the comments were in response to the June 2nd edict from the Royal college of OB's, please note almost all of them were written by mothers in favor of diy birth.

Here are the last four of thirteen comments:


Now the main reason that I chose to get into freebirth was because like you, I am a person who does not like to be dependent on anyone else for anything. I wrote an article for News Max the month after 9-11 making the case for family self sufficiency as being a key part in America Winning the War on Terror. Freebirth fits into the definition of Family Self Sufficiency.

I also wrote a primer on Emergency Childbirth for my web readers, and it gets huge traffic every month, with my most "send to a friend" links of everything on my site.


Wether the people on this board are concerned about terrorism, or natural disasters, or getting medically self sufficient or not, the fact is that many families are feeling motivated to wean from the medical system because of survival issues and are out looking for information. Wether that is religiously motivated or not is not for me to say. For our family, and for me as an individual mother, all I have to do is read Matthew 24 and know that having these skills during end times events will carry the day, and the baby and I will be just fine.

The most likely scenario I can think of for today is that we will have some sort of a pandemic and the hospitals will be overrun with sick people and healthy mothers will not want to risk going into the hospital to give birth.

Jenny


Laughing out loud as I type, I'm really sorry, it is hard to take your question about "orgasmic birth" studies seriously, especially looking at your avatar.

Angle?

I don't know too many women who would submit to a scientic study around freebirth just so doctors could document the fact that sexual things are happening.

As stated above, Dr. Odent has done a marvelous job sharing the good news in his book The Scientification of Love. I would challenge you to read that book and hear his arguments first hand. The list of studies that are included in my post #206 http://www.tfproject.org/tfp/showpos...&postcount=206 would be a good place for you to start researching also.

I think you would find this article stimulating to read:

Nissen, E., Uvnas-Moberg, K., Svensson, K., Stock, S., Widstrom, A. M., & Winberg, J. (1996). Different patterns of oxytocin, prolactin but not cortisol release during breastfeeding in women delivered by caesarean section or by the vaginal route.Early Human Development, 45, 103-18

The hormones of labor are exactly those of sex. The doctors know this. They use Pitocin and Prostiglandins to induce labor (And as noted, lately cytotex). Freebirthers would argue that a cervix smeared with an artificial hormone tends to cause overpowering and painful contractions, and mothers who have felt the difference would argue that they would far prefer to have a labor started with a husbands seman rather than an artificial hormone dripped into the veins or slathered over her cervix.

After the birth doctors use similar agents to contract the uterus to help release the placenta and clamp down the uterus. Freebirthers believe that the stimulating effect of breastfeeding provides just as good, or better contractions for releasing the placenta, and breastfeeding has been proven to stop a post partum hemorrhage (and also allows the mother and child to bond).

Dr. Robert Bradley shares the anecdote in his book of walking past a birthing suite where a mother had just given birth and was bleeding out, and the doctor and nurses were frantically packing her with guaze and he said the baby was laying quietly in a basinet, largely forgotten by the staff. He said he picked up the babe and put it to the mothers breast and after sucking for a minute or two, she stopped bleeding.

It has been whispered about on the internet that some of those prostiglandins are produced from Pig Semen. Gross. Some of us are still waiting for various manufacturers to come clean on this topic and have written letters demanding they share ingredient lists with consumers. It's sort of like the vaccines that are being produced using aborted baby tissue. SHHHHHHHHH, nobody is supposed to talk about the ugly sides of medicine. They are scientists, and we parents are supposed to tip toe quietly when they start pontificating.

Not me. I start yelling loud and long on my blog when another big pharma fraud is exposed....

Jenny

Wow! Thanks for the link. I just found this here:

QUOTE:

From the Minature guide to the Art of Asking Essential Questions by Dr. Linda Elder and Dr. Richard Paul.


Man, I am glad those doctors took the time to write such breathtakingly profound words. I may have never figured it out if you had not shared that link, and then, you know, I went in and read it, and WOW, I just went, Sheesh, I never would have known that it was important to ask questions as a parent. Who would have guessed? I feel like I have been reborn, renewed of mind, body, and spirit. Thanks, you have changed my life for the better, and at the end of my days, I am going to put on my gravestone..."what would my life have been like had not Dilbert1,2,3 shared that profound critical thinking link with me????"



You da man!!!

Jenny


Thanks Sticky, I like the fact that you went right to the case notes. As stated in them...

"Judge Padovano went to the hospital
and convened a hearing in the office of
hospital Senior Vice President and Chief
Medical Officer Dr. Jack MacDonald. In
response to the judge's questions, Drs.
Thompson, Brickler and O'Bryan testified
unequivocally that vaginal birth would
pose a substantial risk of uterine rupture
and resulting death of the baby.


My question for these docs is.....How was it possible for Mrs. Pemberton to give birth to four additional babies at home unassisted after having TWO c-sections. They said that Unequivocally, she would rupture. Yet she gave birth to FOUR more children unassisted.



"Judge Padovano ordered Ms. Pemberton
returned to the hospital. Mr. Meggs and
a law enforcement officer went to Ms.
Pemberton's home and advised her she
had been ordered to return to the hospital.
She returned to the hospital by ambulance
against her will."

Again, we come back to my question...who gets to decide??


"Judge Padovano then continued the
hearing in Ms. Pemberton's room at the
hospital. Both she and Mr. Pemberton
were allowed to express their views. The
judge ordered that a caesarean section be
performed."

Why does he get to decide? Who made him God? What does this case mean for women who are giving birth at home, even with a midwife, against medical advice, and I can promise you, few doctors in America would encourage a mother with ANY c-section scar to give birth at home.


"Dr. Brickler and Dr. Kenneth McAlpine
performed a caesarean section, resulting in
delivery of a healthy baby boy. Ms. Pemberton
suffered no complications."

No Complications is in fact the ultimate issue. This couple felt so passionate about how horrifyingly injust this situation was that they moved out of state and then gave birth to four additional children alone at home. What the medical system in fact did is ensure that even if Mrs. Pemperton and her child wanted and needed to have medical care, they would never in a million years seek out that medical care, because their trust had been so unbelievably broken.

What is incredulous to me is that you use this case to strengthen the argument for HOSPITAL BIRTH??? hey, she would have ruptured, and the baby would have DIED. Uteri rupture in the delivery room all the time, and even the medical statistics prove that only one in four of those ruptures result in a dead baby. Yet, at home her body, no question, would have ruptured, even though that same uterus had worked hard to open her cervix 7 cms. The doctors don't know that. The family obviously were willing to live with the risks of rupture at home as they made the decision.

Some families will live with that risk, some won't, but who says the docs and courts get to decide??? And then send the police into the bedroom and force mom to have a section.

Sickening chill going down my spine.

As for the New Scientist study that claimed those stats are indicative of the current home birth movement. I say no. And the reason for this is the explosion in information in just the past ten years. When I was preparing for my first uc birth in 1996, I had a very difficult time finding any information, anywhere. In the past ten years a whole body of knowledge has been put up on the internet with chat rooms and email, and whole medical libraries posted on the web, it is possible for the parents to do the research and find out for themselves if freebirth is for them.

In a religious community that rejects modern medicine, which is not who the freebirthers are, giving birth from 75 to 82, this body of literature did not exist.

Within a matter of minutes a mother can have any number of questions answered, simply by posting on a freebirth forum, and make the informed decision as to wether unassisted birth is for her and her family. Some choose to have a midwife for prenatals, or even use a doctor for various tests, etc...and others say, NOT FOR ME, and that's cool. This is not for everyone. But to compare us to some inbred, isolated, anti-modernity community is not to describe our group at all.

Also, to assume that mothers who give birth alone are as un-formally educated as me is wrong. We have many mothers who are highly degreed, including Sarah Buckley, who is a medical doctor.

Those who have endorsed Sarahs Work have said this about her:
"Hoorah for Sarah Buckley! Her strong, authoritative voice is sorely needed..."

Ina May Gaskin Midwife and author, US

"Sarah Buckley creatively integrates mind/body wisdom with the latest scientific research to provide women with the essential tools they need to make conscious choices throughout their pregnancy and birth. "

Deepak Chopra Author 'Peace is the Way'

"I will forever be grateful for such words of wisdom, it has empowered, inspired and allowed me to experience a gentle pregnancy, birth and now parenting my son Matthew with rewards that amaze me each day."

Arletta Nikitiuk Osteopath, Melbourne Australia

"Sarah Buckley is precious, because she is bilingual. She can speak the language of a mother who gave birth to her four children at home. She can also speak like a medical doctor. By intermingling the language of the heart and the scientific language she is driving the history of childbirth towards a radical and inspiring new direction."

Michel Odent MD Author, natural birth pioneer


Jenny

Sticky

Jenny,

I did not go right to the case notes.
First of all I read the whole case.
Second, if you read (or re-read carefully) what was posted by me you would see that I the first part of the case that I posted was from the opening of the writeup on the case.
I then posted the full background section so that people whowill not end up reading the whole case at the link that I had posted would at least read the background section.
Then finaly I posted from the discussion section which you refer to as the notes (and then requote) and incorrectly point out that I went straig to that section.

You said the following insinuating that I and/or that Judge and/or those doctors said that Pemberton's uterus would have ruptured.
No one said such a thing. Read carefully what was in the case and what you quoted.
That is:
"pose a substantial risk of uterine rupture"

That is what they said.

Not that I am the only one to answer this nor am I any authority that anyone should listen to, if this comment is directed at me (amongst others) read what I wrote.
Because that is how the U.S. Federal and State legal systems work.

Nobody made him God but, you the people of the U.S. built that system and that is how it works.

What this case does is ensure that hospitals and doctors througout the U.S. will continue to act in the best interest of the patient (in this case the patient is the unborn baby).

You are right, they will likely not seek out medical care.
This does not change that fact of what the results of this case (not the original court order) show, that the Hospital in question was acting in the moment. At that moment in time they didn't care if she never steps foot in a hospital again (although it would be nice if they included that as part of their decision process - maybe they didn't, maybe they did and still came to the same conclusion) their concern was for the unborn baby.

You used this case for the promotion of free-birth
The only thing that I use this case for after, it was brought to this thread, is to point out that:
Nice. (sarcastic)


[quote=Jenny Hatch]Also, to assume that mothers who give birth alone are as un-formally educated as me is wrong.[quote]
For you to assume that Faith Assembly members living in the state of Indiana are un-formally educated as you is wrong as well.

Would you not say that the following describes women who belive in/practice free-birth:
It says that they have a minimum of a high school education.
Just like you tried to point out about women believing/practisince free-birth, they were trying to point out that these women are not from:
Those are the words you used in post 161.

You used those words to defend people believing/practising free-birth to make the case agaist the using worldwide statistics on births to prove anything.

The summary of the study uses the following to say something similar:
They are saying that these women are healthy and educated.



Sometimes in excitement people read and take in what they want to hear or what they are expecting to hear.
This is most often exagerated on the internet or in email where messages are short and the reader does not hear the tone of the writer (when discussing in person tone is more often understood).
I know that I have been guilty in the past of both mis-reading (reading what I was expecting) and mis-judging tone.

I understand it happens, but...
Please don't tell me that I said something or that others have said things that if were re-read (or read more carefully) were clearly not said.

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Dilbert1234567

see this is the problem, you pick and choose what you read, had you only bothered to read the next paragraph, or, better yet, bothered to read past the introduction, you may have learned something, but you read the big pretty parts, the easy parts, and claim victory; thanks for proving my point.

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Jenny Hatch

Thanks for pointing that out. You are right and I misread your tone. I also very much appreciate the sharing of the legal stuff. I tried to find it myself, but all I could find were blog entries talking about the case.

I do support our legal system and if the people in charge felt that they were protecting a child, I guess that is where we are at in today medical and legal climate.

It still sends shivers down my spine.

Jenny

Sticky

I think that is understandable.
I also thank you for your honest response.

I think that we all want a government and legal system that protects us with out interferring where we feel they should not.

Each of us has our own line that we feel the government and legal system should not cross.
This, I think is probably what all the arguments here may be about.
We each may (and likely) imagine that line in a different place.

In addition to where we feel the line is, the government and legal system (including law and order sides) draw a line and determine where and where not to intervene.
The line they draw moves
- It moves with cases like these that set or change precedent
- It moves with the election of new judges
- It moves with the appointment of new judges
- It moves with the election of new goverments (local, state, and federal)

When I looked up Pemberton I found it hard to find the case, so once I did I though it would be important to post it here.
I posted the opening.
I posted the full background section so that people can decide for themselves based on all the details.
Then I posted a section that highlighted the point I was trying to make about the risk of one vs. the other.

It is up to us to make our own decision about risk when it comes to ourselves and our children.

However, what the judge in this case tries to point out is that decisions about risk to others including our children are not solely our own.
At some point (wherever the line is currently drawn) the government or legal system steps in to ensure that the individual it feels is being put at risk by another is kept as safe as possible.

The hospital had system in place in order to ensure that in cases like this (and many other cases involving people other than mothers and unborn babies) decision making is not done arbitrarily but that specific procedures are followed to ensure that those who need to be protected or removed from risk are.
Without such procedures, the border line cases that trigger them will be decided by the single doctor, resident, intern, or nurse on at the moment.

I find that this part of the case and teh situation makes me much more comfortable and gives me more faith in the system.

If a borderline case presents itself I now have a little more confidence that at least it will be handled properly. I may not get the result that I want or feel I need but path to get to those results is much more fair then a one person spur of the moment decision.
- It was recognized by the staf that this was a borderline situation that must be handled by more than one doctor.
- Procedures said to get other opinions
- depending on the other opinions take action
- In this case the hospital legal staff was notified who was in touch with the state legal authorities
- unfortunately Pemberton left and was persued
- A hearing was convened with a judge where the pembertons (after being brought back to the hospital) were able to express their opinions
- the judge made a decision

One may not be happy with the results but at the fact that there is a process is what is of note.

__________________
Sticky The Stickman

Jenny Hatch

And if that PROCESS is in fact based exclusively on the "current medical dogma", which it is, and those of us who are educated about natural birth question all of that DOGMA, that is where the two sides will continually be butting heads.

Henci Goer, the author of Obtetric Myths VS. Research Realities is our (and by our I do not mean Freebirth, but overall Natural birth) premiere writer on this subject, and she wrote a great piece in 2002 titled The Assault on normal birth, the OB Misinformation Campaign.

QUOTE:


It is these types of arguments, lined up with personal experience (no, momma, you cannot have a VBAC) that is causing some women to say....Then I will just have to do it myself.

USA Today did a good piece titled Battle lines drawn over C-sections, where the claim was made by a doctor, that no one is willing to provide the middle ground so called "danger zone" in childbirth, and because of it parents are increasingly feeling the need to go it alone.



I have a friend up in Idaho, five kids, she had her first in hospital, section for CPD, then her next three at home unassisted. Her first babe was a 7 pounder, and her next three boys were all over ten pounds. With her fifth, she was over 35 and figured she should prob go get some prenatal care and have the babe in the hospital because she was high risk as an older mom.

Her doc told her that because of her CPD - (too small pelvis) and section scar that she would have to have another section. It did not matter that she had given birth to three additional ten pound boys just fine. She told me that the doctors extreme stance made the decision for her.

She had her fifth baby at home alone, just fine.

In the UK, Australia, Canada, as well as here in the US, this is in fact the main reason moms are choosing freebirth right now. At least from surfing the chat rooms, talking to women, and watching things very, very closely, this is the sense I have of it.

And IF the Medicos are using scare tactics around the rupture issue, as outlined in Ms. Goers article, to freak the public and give docs and hospitals justification for not doing VBAC's. Well you can see where this train wreck is heading. Right into the courts. And if in American Politics, the people with the most money and the most "scientific" research win......well you can see where that leaves a few families who are on the fringe and have absolutely NO RESEARCH to back us up beyond our own anecdotal evidence. Claiming JOY during birth didn't buy me five cents worth of credibility on this site, and trying to hold it up against a mountain or medical research (even if they interpret it funny) and money and credentials....it is David and Goliath all over again.

And if as she claimed in the article, it is in fact the artificial stimulants that are tied to the recent increase in ruptures, well, she says it far better than I ever could:


I really suggest you read the whole thing.

It truly provides a proper backdrop to this whole discussion.

Jenny

tecoyah

Jenny Hatch

I asked you before, how would you feel to be prosecuted for practicing medicine without a license?

This is not hyperbole. The reality is that the ACOG people have gone nuts. Even the infamous Dr. Crippen, who was mentioned in the first entry of this thread, claims we Americans are all living in the land of Obstetric Insanity.

When you have editors at the Lancet calling our docs the "good old boys club", and countries that everyone considers the third world having better birth stats than us, isn't it time to step back and say....Hmmmm....something might be off in the US birthing system.

And to even suggest that my strong stance is the reason that midwives are not allowed to practice. Why? Because freebirth makes all home birthers look bad???

I know the midwives are on a rampage against freebirth. At least most of them. But are we honestly a threat to them? I believe we up their numbers and credibility with families, simply because women hear about freebirth, say, don't want to do that, but perhaps I'll have a home birth with a midwife. I've had several friends (and yes, I do have friends), who have chosen home birth with midwives after being very hospital oriented. My friend Kirsten was just over the other day and told me that the main reason she gave birth to her first at home with a midwife was because she had watched me go through my fifth pregnancy before moving to new mexico. I can give you her phone number if you'd like to call and confirm that I do indeed have a real live friend.

I also have been friends with dozens and dozens of freebirthers. People who took my childbirth class, people who I met in various chat rooms who took the time and energy to attend our 2001 conference, and Laura Shanely is one of my best friends. I can give you her number too, if you would like to check, you know, just to see if I really have a friend.

Here is the video of one of our moms who spoke at the conference, I'm at the end of the clip speaking. So you can see in video, a friend talking to me, even (arrrrghhhh) hugging me, and yes, thanking me for giving her the opportunity to speak. Amanda Speaks at the freebirth conference.

Since the conference Amanda and her husband John have given birth to two additional children, freebirthin style.

Now, my best friend in the world, Susan Baig, also a REAL friend, not a cyber fake friend, and not a figment of my imagination, but a real live breathing, speaking, and alive friend also spoke at the conference, she is the mother of six children, and has given birth at home alone three times.

Here is the clip to her talk at the conference


If you didn't know Dr. Crippen is documenting online the fall of the socialistic system in the UK. It is literally falling apart. He ended that blog entry with these words:



How to have an honest conversation......hmmmmm....why don't we all agree that maybe, just maybe something is off in the wonderful world of medical childbirth? And instead of getting lost in studies from the 70's, 80's, and early 90's, and throwing around infant mortality rates why don't we take a hard look at what is happening, right now today at ACOG and in the birthing suites around our country.

Then, we can get to the heart of the matter of why women are increasingly choosing freebirth. Throw terrorism, the threat of disease, natural disasters, and instability in the oil supply in the middle east into the mix, and really, it just makes sense to learn how to give birth alone.

A few posts above someone asked me what I was all about, I am simply a mom who has taken a realisitc look at our world and determined that in order to have a truly healthy family, I was going to have to make some hard choices about birth. I morphed into an activist after my fourth birth because I could see the direction we were heading as a society. That was ten years ago, and each year the c-section rate jumped and jumped and jumped again. One year it jumped 4% in ONE YEAR. And with the ACOG guys talking, "hey, why not EVERYONE have a c-section"? Again, we have to ask ourselves.

What is this all about and where is this all headed?

Throw into the mix the fact that unassisted childbirth can strengthen a marriage in every single way, especially around a husband and wifes intimate life together, and it is just a no brainer to promote this thing. If I do it in an offensive way? Good. I hope to provoke and prod and get people arguing and talking and debating because what we have had a deadly lack of in America is any sort of a public debate on childbirth.


The CLASH of ideas is the sound of freedom, as Lady Bird Johnson so eloquently said.

I LOVE the sound of the CLASH. Anyone else have some CLASHING ideas about freebirth??? Or any form of birth???

I think what we need in America is a huge scream fest about birth.



Jenny

ngdawg

When everyone screams, no one can listen.

What's "terrorism, the threat of disease, natural disasters, and instability in the oil supply in the middle east into the mix, and really, it just makes sense to learn how to give birth alone." have to do with anything? You had your kids at home, so the oil supply gets better and there will be no more earthquakes? How many terrorists do you think were born from c-sections in hospitals? Who cares?

Interestingly enough, you pose a question yet haven't answered most posed to you. Those that wish to participate have stated their positions regarding both freebirthing and hospital choices. When down on freebirthing, the why's have been stated, but not debated. Are they accurate then?
Shall I ask again the freebirthing thinking behind the following? Or shall we make it 0 for 3?
Breech
Malformations and/or congenital defects
Multiples
Gestational maladies such as toxemia and diabetes
Large babies
Premature labor
Maternal health and nutrition

According to the March of Dimes, the US is not worse than 3rd world countries in birth stats:
mortality rates Only 4 countries have lower rates.
In this article, birth defects, while it is not at all noted how the babies are born, the high rate of birth defects coincides with the low incidence of proper medical care. If this can be disputed, I'd like to know how.

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Jenny Hatch

Jenny Hatch

Cynthetiq

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I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.