The_Jazz

For the record, Jenny hasn't tried to sell anyone anything here. She's within the TFP Guidelines and could be considered an expert on the subject, even if the qualifier "self-described" would be inserted in that honorific.

Let's try to avoid a dogpile here, people.

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"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

lurkette

Apparently there's a sucker born every minute. At home.

*ducks and runs*

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Redlemon

Yup. I was only pointing the link so that people could get a more complete picture; heck, she has a link to her (similar content) blog right on her userpage. By "this should be no surprise", I meant that she is dedicated on several levels to this belief system; she probably found this thread by searching for new information and discussions on freebirthing, and decided to promote her viewpoint.

My opinion, freebirthing is a nice idea if it works out, but you still need doctors for when things don't work out. I doubt it is the cure for all of society's ills.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Dilbert1234567

groan...

*Looks for rotten fruit to throw*

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ngdawg

I LOVED that movie!! How great to find someone else that quotes it

Having kids, to me, doesn't make one an expert for the masses. A couple down the street had three, then raised a grandson and all four are total losers-sociopathic wastes of air.
My mom had 3 girls before having a boy, that doesn't make her an expert on raising girls vs. raising boys.
Anecdotal viewpoints are fine and there are always common threads others can relate to or take away info from. Based on the website, the poster is positioning herself as an expert in several different areas with no credentials other than popping out 5 kids 3 different ways and basing her change of choices on the opinions of a few radical medical viewpoints while insinuating that everyone else's choices are inherently wrong.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Jinn

Couldn't you do kinda a ..hybrid?

Do the whole natural (aka ridiculously bad pain) thing in your bedroom without assistance, but have a midwife and a doctor with an epidural loaded sitting in the living room? That way, you get the whole "peaceful, this child will never be violent" effect you claim, but still have the "oh shit, the baby is coming out sideways" backup plan nearby?

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Adri

Several years ago, one of my mother's very good friends married a total "back to nature" man who insisted when she became pregnant, that they do a natural, unassisted childbirth at their home in the woods with no running water or electricity.

The baby was breech. After several hours of excruciating pain, severe blood loss, and a clumsy (yet eventually successful) attempt to correct the baby's position, the mother died. The baby was delivered a few short seconds after the mother's death. The baby had suffocated during the repositioning.

This was their first child, so they did not have the experience that Jenny Hatch has, but even so, if it's so natural, normal, and peaceful, why does experience even matter?


Personally, I will have an "elective" c-section if/when I ever have a child, because I have severe bladder problems as it is, and having discussed it with my doctor, we determined that the process of giving birth vaginally would require me to wear Depends for the rest of my life. Call me selfish if you want.

Jenny Hatch

Um Jazz....Sort of used to the dogpiling effect. Just read Dr. Crippens Comments from his infamous and oft quoted blog post on freebirthing. I was pretty much alone while trying to defend my lifestyle to those who were filled with righteous indignation. My comments start here. It wasn't just a dogpile, I was told in no uncertain terms that my lack of credentials and lack of understanding about birth statistics made it completely impossible for me to even be able to debate. That Dr. Amy was really a case.

I asked you for links and quotes proving that violent childbirth was not linked to later violence in life. You did not share any. You simply reacted to my quotes from Dr. Odent. You were the one who said that not one shred of evidence exists proving violent birth causes later violence. When I shared that evidence you reacted with a knee jerk emotional reaction, as did others. All I asked for what some links and quotes.

Anyone??

Here is a link to an article by David Chamberlain - Go Here Scroll down to his references at the end of the article. He is not just pulling his facts out of a hat.


I found this thread at TFP by googling freebirth. For some reason we have had a ton of interest in our movement the past month, stories coming out the yin yang, and it has created something of a buzz in the blogosphere.

I've just been going around to those blogs that allow me to post and trying to defend my lifestyle.

As for the points that I posted which were a direct quote from Dr. Michael Odent (And I am honored to think that you people would believe I came up with them), he has devoted his career to the normalization of childbirth, written extensively on the subject and as the formost authority on waterbirth in France, has a most popular and beloved birth center where he has been helping women for years. I menioned him because in his books while not completely dismissing or endorsing our movement, he has said that it would be wise for doctors to listen to our stories.

One of the things that I've noticed with those who post on the internet is they look at their own situation (I was circumsized, I was born by section, I was bottle fed, and I'm fine, so your theory sucks), but I would guess that most people who have the time, money, and desire to post on a blog are in the upper echelons of society. With enough cash to have internet connectivity, enough leisure time to spend blogging, and enough literacy to be a part of the conversation.

In looking at demographics, sure someone like you may be tortured during a preemie experience and/or circumsized, or bottle fed and because of other factors, still be a healthy, contributing member of society.

But what if you throw poverty into the mix? A history of illiteracy in a family? Drug and Alcohol problems? Domestic Abuse? And all of the issues that come up with living hand to mouth?

I would suggest that traumatic birth and not bonding with momma for whatever reason could be the tipping point for a person into violence and crime. Conversely, someone who comes from all of that darkness in family life, who is born at home and perhaps even nursed and well bonded may still become a criminal because of the family situation.

I really would encourage you all to go to the pre and peri natal psychologists web site. They make a compelling argument on a variety of fronts.

http://www.birthpsychology.com/apppah/

But I am really not here to debate you into my way of thinking. Dr. Crippen was the one who suggested that we should be litigated against. He is the one who started the debate by throwing around words like manslaughter and suites for parental choices. And he is the one being quoted in so many of the articles in the media as if he was Moses coming down from Mount Sinai with a new set of birthing commandments.

I am simply here to make the case that IF mothers who give birth unassisted are going to be prosecuted for a dead baby, or Fathers who support wives who give birth unassisted are going to be prosecuted for "practicing medicine without a license" (As if anything my husband did during my last birth remotely smacked of medicine - the main thing he did during my birth was sing to me), or if that same father is prosecuted for manslaughter if his wife and baby should die during a home birth, then it only seems fair to me that babies who die during a planned c-section, done for whatever reason (excluding medical necessity) should likewise be prosecuted for that deadly choice.

No one ever asks WHY I decided to get into UC Birth. For those who are interested, I started down this path simply wanting to wean my family from societal infrastructures.

Why?

Because I was not so sure they would be available to help me with birth, feeding my child, or healing my child should we have some end times event. I'm a christian, looking very much forward to the return of Jesus Christ, and I know that the scriptures have prophesied that our day would be a time of chaos. Wether from terrorism, natural disaster, disease, or the oil situation making it impossible to get gas for our car, I began learning mothering self sufficiency 18 years ago and have gradually weaned myself from the powers that be.

This does not mean we are living out in a shack somewhere waiting for "da bomb". But it does mean that we have systematically learned the skills necessary for survival, which is why so much of the writing on my sites are dedicated to practical skills of which birth, breastfeeding, herbal healing, and cooking with whole foods play a big part.


Jenny Hatch

analog

Two reasons that the above assertion/judgment is incorrect:

Breast milk is not an antibiotic, but contains white blood cells with antigen information which helps your child's own immune system build much more quickly. This is extremely advantageous for the child, and why a major "way of thinking" is that it's an essential part of the baby's nutrition. That being said, I agree that it's assholish to tell someone they're less of a caring mother because they don't breastfeed.

However, we don't know what the infant mortality rates would have been WITHOUT breast milk during that long-ago time period. So... there's no data to compare and say whether it did or not. Saying "it didn't work" is like saying seatbelts don't save lives, "so many" thousands of people die every year, if you didn't know how many people died in similar crashes without them. It's an incredibly flawed, one-way-thinking postulate.

Jenny Hatch:

Your methodology and "information" is being questioned because both are speciously constructed and rely heavily on pulling someone in with emotional, not logical or rational, talk to get them to swallow whole what you're attempting to feed them. That's why you're having an issue "reaching out". Appealing to sentiment, rather than to information and logic, will get you shut out of people's minds in record time.

The bottom line is, "natural" does not automatically equal "better" or "good". Yes, people birthed without any help for all time. That doesn't mean that the introduction of some medical professional is without merit. You are lucky/blessed (whichever word you prefer) to have many healthy children. Not everyone births perfectly every single time. In fact, lots of people don't.

And if he's so into "home" and "free" birthing, why have a center? That's like starting a membership club for anarchists, it's completely contrary to the purpose.

I encourage debate on all topics, but I can't respond to asinine comparisons like "lung cancer from smoking"- which would mean withholding life saving care and "I chose to have a baby, now pay for it". Smoking may have been a choice, but saying that anyone should have lifesaving care withheld because it was their choice that put them there, is just plain awful.

Right. Suffering and death. Treating illness and trauma. So what you're trying to say is... universal healthcare should pay for childbirth because it falls under the heading of "human suffering and death"?

And there's a huge difference between "accidental" pregnancy and "intentional" pregnancy. We pay for the ignorance and irresponsibility of people every day, accidental pregnancy due to either of those factors is hardly any different. Covering all pregnancy, fully, writes a blank check on my tax dollars for all their care. People bitch ALL the time about how expensive having a child is... you want all of that, for every woman in the US, to get tacked into our tax burden?

For the record, I'm not against universal healthcare. My opinion is that having a child is a choice (which it is, unless it's an accident, which isn't what we're talking about), and should be treated as elective medical care (not paid for universally).

ngdawg

I'm not even questioning out of emotional reaction; I find her entire defense of her reasons to be hypocritical.
Freebirthing is reportedly to be an alternative to relying on the medical community, yet the ideology follows a doctor or two's theories.
Rhetoric about violence, sociopathic behaviors, compromised health and well being is being used in an attempt to boost the theory, but there's nothing to back the claims. In fact, saying that the most time spent after birth was with a child born by a C-section is in direct conflict of everything stated beforehand.
Ironic that those that respond are told of their 'righteous indignation'....
Exactly. So why the constant insistence that those who are not of the same thought are in certain danger or raising sociopaths? As I stated, every point made to boost the reasons for freebirthing was worthless.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

ShaniFaye

analog, my first comment had nothing to do with breastfeeding. I had to do with all the crap she posted about the free birthing process itself being sooooo fantastic, my point is...if it was, then why was the infant mortality rate so high until mothers started having their babies in hospitals with trained people on hand to handle emergencies?

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The_Jazz

Jenny, my statement was made as a moderator to keep this discussion within the rules of this forum. I honestly do not care one whit what happens outside of this little corner of the internet so any experiences you had elsewhere I'm rejecting as completely irrelevant. I was simply doing my job, such as it is.

Linking to your own website for statistical data is THE fastest way for me to reject your argument, virtually regardless of what it happens to be. If you were to claim that the sky were blue and back that up with your own site, it immediately dimisses your credibility.

You're asking me to prove a negative in that violent childbirth isn't linked to violent adulthood. Logically, that's impossible. It's your hypothesis, so the onus is on you to prove it. Again, citing your own blog or website doesn't seem like a good idea if you're really trying to sway my opinion.

I think that you're wrong about this whole thing. I think that you have no science behind your sentiments, well placed as you might believe them to be. I'm a rational guy so I'm going to look at science on a medical issue before I ever look to emotions.

As I've mentioned in PM's, I also think that you should explore the rest of this site since you might be surprised at the range and depth of the discussions around here. One trick ponies generally don't get much respect among the general membership no matter what the staff does to enforce the rules. I can promise that people will at least be polite in their disagreement, though.

__________________
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"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

Cynthetiq

I'll say it again, and you should chant it with me.

Correlation does not imply causation.

By your own structure you state that it is the violent birthing that pronounces the violent people. But above you state you add poverty, drugs/alcohol, illiteracy, domestic abuse. Imperical evidence shows that those alone can produce the results you tout. To blame it on circumcision or not breastfeeding in conjunction with those added items is irresponsible statistical presentation. You are purposefully being misleading to get your point across.

As far as your Dr. Crippen is concerned, it is ONE man calling for that. I would say it is equally irresponsible for him to make that case based on the fact that people have children in this freebirth manner all the time. His desire to prosecute on intent can easily be countered by those with religious beliefs that limit the need for medical practices. Just because you believe something does not imply that you get a free ride; no beliefs sometimes are challenged and one must be willing to defend that belief to the highest courts if needed.

I too will state that you should look around here. You will find that this space of the internet is quite together in the ability to have responsible and fair discussions and debate. I don't subscribe to your viewpoint, and I shouldn't need to. I can however be respectful in disagreeing with you.

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Jenny Hatch

I appreciate the comments on the violent birth equals violent person claims that I have made, don't want to take the time to respond to each of you individually because it feels like I am beating a dead horse linking to the perinatal psychologists. I believe that the violence connection is real, some of you dont', and that's cool.


I wonder what the response is however, to my claim that giving birth alone was joyful and strengthening to my marriage?

Don't get me wrong, all five of our childrens birth days were the happiest days of our lives. But so much of that joy was cluttered by the many strangers around us, and the various procedures and protocols that we had to bow down to, no matter how our children were born.

If you buy the argument that birth is pretty much straightforward most of the time, and statistics are on the side of the birthing mother having things go well most of the time, (And I do buy that argument) then why shouldn't a couple explore this side of their sexuality by staying home and privately giving birth?

Many couples who give birth this way describe the experience as supremely intimate and without going into too much detail I have talked to several women who have claimed that giving birth this way "recharged" them sexually.

You line up that reality with the fact that many women in the hospital have their most private parts cut up and stitched, and the question must be asked, "for what purpose was this beautiful body cut up".

As a Bradley Childbirth teacher I learned that episiotomy and rupture of membranes only saved the docs an average of 20 minutes per birth, yet had such a horrifying effect on the mother's recovery. 4th degree episiotomy is no fun to recover from. And who is benefitting from this cut? The doc.

I chose to give birth with just my husband because I knew he would go the distance with me. I knew he would not try to hurry me along so he could get out on the golf course or move on to the next birthing mother. He would not have dreamed of pulling out a pair of scissors and cutting me up to speed second stage pushing.

No, he waited patiently, and because he was willing to wait, I birthed with no tears or cuts.

I also gave birth standing up in the Yoga Goddess position, and it felt so good to be standing on my own two feet while the baby emerged from my body.

The night our fifth child was born, all four of our older children were asleep, and fifteen minutes after the birth they woke up one by one and slowly came into the bedroom to meet Ben. That night was the most sacred and beautiful night of our lives together.

The next morning my doula showed up to give me a massage. Our chiropractor came for a home visit to give me an adjustment. He also adjusted Ben a little, and we had some friends and family come over to see the babe. Giving birth alone does not mean that you don't hire people to help with other things around the birth or have friends over before and after the birth. But it does mean that you have a paradigm shift around what is necessary for the child to be born.

I won't share any more links, a boatload of information is up on the internet, with more stories coming every day from the mommas who are doing this.

I do want to testify however, that the Joy is much deeper, palpable, and very different from the hospital experiences I had.

Jenny Hatch

ShaniFaye

Im curious as to what mothers do when something happens like what happened to me. I had no chance for an epi, I tore and I tore pretty good. That of course needs to be stitched. How is that handled in a "home" birth?

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tecoyah

I cant speak to the general public...but, Harpie was cut for our first (hospital) and didn't tear at all for the homebirths.

First 6lb 2oz
second 6lb 10oz
third 7lb 5oz

Jenny Hatch

Super glue or complete bed rest, letting it heal on its own. FYI, it is very rare for a natural birthing mom who is listening to her body while she pushes, and is in an upright position to have more than a second degree tear.

The chat rooms and forums on freebirth have information out the wazoo on how to prevent perineal damage. And if it happens, how to heal it without stitches. One friend used super glue, which is popular in some midwifery circles. But most freebirthers claim to have no perineal damage.

The thinking goes that if anyone but a womans lover gets in between her legs she tenses up and this contracting of the tissue contributes to tearing.

I'm sorry you tore, I did with my first baby, just first degree, but he stitched me up somthing fierce and it was no fun healing.

Jenny

Cynthetiq

Jenny,

It is common here to cut and paste your items that you link here, for a couple reasons. One internet sites don't always stick around so the discussion can get hampered over time. Second, people go to the links and don't specifically what you are talking about wander about and forget about the conversation at hand. To facilitate the conversation, I suggest you cut and paste the specific paragraphs and include the URL for the link so that people can get more information from those sites.

the peri link you posted only led me to see:

My own digging there didn't lead me to what evidence you may be interested in pointing out.

But that doesn't help me or anyone else understand specifically what you are discussing. It only confuses me because I don't see what evidence you are citing but just an organization. I don't see any empirical data, no information on case studies, no statements of research from phd doctorate students. I see nothing but a statement that says, basically, "We believe..." There is nothing there stating WHY they believe supported by any evidence.

Where is the evidence that shows "prenatal and perinatal experiences have a profound influence?"

The response from that should be, "WONDERFUL! Congratulations!" It may range from,"That's great but I'm too scared to do something like that myself," or even "I would never jeopardize myself or my spouse in that manner." Which if I've read through this thread correctly, is about the range of response.

Which if you bother to look around the site, you'd find that people here are very supportive of people's choices and decisions. Again, they don't have to subscribe to it, but they can be supportive AND disagree with your choice for themselves and their lifestyle. Again, the key to this is being respectful. We don't allow members to flame other members in any shape or form. The community here is a thinking community, most of us here don't take things at face value. The point of this community is to evolve one's thinking. It doesn't happen if you don't have an open mind.

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ShaniFaye

it really wasnt a big deal....I didnt even know it had happened until the doctor traded places with my husband, who was the one between my legs when it happened, as my OB believed in the SO being the one to be there when the baby came out, and he told me he was going to have to stitch me because I tore.

I didnt really notice any problem with it at all during the healing?

Superglue? somehow I think Im real glad I had stitches

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

Cynthetiq

Actually since Vietnam it was used as such:

LINK

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ngdawg

Many of your comments, ie; rushing to get to a golf course, are condescending.
The choices made together will strengthen a relationship and no one has questioned that.
I saw no links to any 'number of perinatal psychologists', only one to a list of violence stats that had nothing to do with the OP.
Episiotomies are sometimes a nasty necessity, specially for petite women. For example, my friend, not more than 5'2", full term 7 lb baby began to tear-I believe it was called a '4th degree' rip and required an episiotomy, not to hasten anything but to prevent further injury. An article in Glamour magazine of February, 2005 covered a malady most common to third world women, primarily certain countries in Africa that was causing a great deal of human rights concerns. These women, in giving birth, many times would endure perforated uteruses and tears in the area between the rectum and vagina. These tears in turn caused bowel and urinary leakage through the uterus and vagina. Because they were thusly 'deformed', husbands would abandon them, communities would ostracize and they were openly outcast.
Blanketly stating that everything offered up is due only to line pockets and get doctors out to social engagements faster is bigoted at best. Perhaps you had some unscrupulous medical personnel, but not everyone does.
Also, not everyone can make the decision to birth at home, a fact you are choosing to ignore. And, while we are attempting a give and take as it pertains to the discussion, your posts thus far have only been personal testimonials and not answering the questions or concerns anyone has put forth. Perhaps I'll begin:
1) Is it your contention, based on what you've stated that children such as my own (twins,C-section) will not fare well? That they will not contribute or have peaceful existence based on their arrivals?
2) Is it your belief that it is primarily the freebirth technique that boosts a child's future positive development?
3) Do you think relying on the medical community for a healthy outcome is misguided? Why? What is the alternative?
4) Just as there are positives to an alternative choice(in this case, freebirth), what are the negatives?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Cynthetiq

From your Dr. Odent link, I contacted my midwife friend in Iceland to inquire what she knows of this history. I cannot find any documentation to support Guonason's assertations, but to cite personal correspondence that doesn't have any historical data to corroborate it is to espouse hearsay.

abaya, can you shed any light on this historical fact as true or untrue?

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Demeter

I tried earnestly to read all the posts before I gave my answer, but my fear of forgetting my point overrode my patience.

I don't agree with the free-birthing concept for two reasons.

One - As many have argued, women gave birth at home since we've been giving birth. However, in times gone past, women often assisted with other births of neighbors and family members, and they learned from these experiences what spelled trouble, and what the experience is like. These days, the first live birth a woman will attend will be her own. They have no idea what and can go wrong, and what the warning factors are.

Two - Women gave birth unassisted in the past because they had no other choice. They didn't have treatment for cancer then either, but that doesn't mean someone with cancer today should forego treatment just because that is what was done in the past. If anything happened to my child to cause physical or mental impairment that could have been avoided by timely medical intervention I would never forgive myself. You can call 911 all you want, but if your baby is without oxygen for more than a few minutes, brain damage begins. I wouldn't bet on an ambulance getting there in time and able to prevent death.


I'm also going to add that I would have lost my daughter if I wasn't in the hospital, and had my labor induced. Waiting for mother nature meant fetal distress and possible oxygen deprivation.
I myself would have died from blood loss when I lost my child halfway through my third pregnancy, if I hadn't been able to access a hospital.

If I had been a pioneer woman, my child and I would have hand-dug graves in the back acre. If I had to choose, I'd choose the scenario in which both my children and I are alive and healthy. Enough goes wrong in life without pushing the envelope. There's enough sorrow without looking for it.

__________________

I am not bound to please thee with my answers.
William Shakespeare

Jenny Hatch

From what I have observed watching the births I attended in the hospital as a professional labor support, doctors tend to rush second stage pushing with episiotomy, breaking the water, forceps, and vacumn extraction. If it means I am condescending to point out the fact that doctors do rush the birth to the detriment of the mother, then I guess I am condescending.

As for the four points:

1) I believe your twins will be just fine

2) I believe freebirth sets up the child for a positive view of life. But I believe prenatal nutrition and attachment parenting are more important than the actual birth in terms of how the child develops long term

3) I believe relying on the medical profession for anything related to health is naive. Legal, properly prescribed, and eaten drugs murder 300,000 americans every year. Some experts think that number is far too low and may even be as high as 600,000 people.

I believe drugs and surgery can be helpful about 10% of the time during birth.

But the fact that our c-section rate has gone up 10% in just the past few years (it is 30%) with no end in sight convinces me that we are going in the wrong direction. I check the CDC web site every once in a while and never before in american history have so many women had prenatal care, it is in the high nineties percentage wise. So the equation better prenatal care equals better outcome should be playing out in terms of our statistics for surgery, prematurity, and low birth weight.

Yet, the indicators are all going in the wrong direction. Prematurity is up, low birth weight is up and the section rate may top out at 40% by the end of the decade.

Why? Because in allopathic birth the doctors are practicing cover your butt medicine and I am not very interested in my body or my childs body being traumetized with drugs and procedures just because the doc is afraid of a lawsuit.

I believe we are fast approaching the day when you either schedual a section or give birth unassisted. I know several women who have had this scenario play out simply because the docs are refusing to do VBAC's in the hospital. Most states have outlawed VBACS for lay midwives at home, and so for these women the choice is either a section or a freebirth. Many are choosing freebirth.

4) The biggest negative for me has been the 13 year fight I have had with my husband Paul. He was a very mainstream, sports nut, computer wizard, sort of guy, and he has evolved, but the fights over birth early in our marriage almost ruined everything we had worked for as a couple.

After my third hospital birth I told him I just could not do it again. And then I gave him an ultimatum saying that I would never give birth in a hospital again and that if he wanted any more kids with me we were doing it at home and alone.

He has never felt comfortable with this choice and although he did deliver our two sons in 1996 and 2002, the pure, raw, emotion this has brought up for us has been very difficult to work through. But we are still together and I love him with all of my heart and he understands why I don't feel comfortable being in the hospital to give birth.

The other negative for us is that some people think we are nuts. But we really don't make important choices based on what other people think of us. So that is not as big of a deal as it might be for other families.

Jenny Hatch

analog

Considering you say "properly prescribed", I question your use of the extreme hyperbole of "murdered" to describe people who lose their lives due to medicines they're taking. To be frank, it's crass and asinine.

The simple truth is, in healthcare today, many people simply do not take any personal accountability for their own medical care. They don't ask any questions that really matter, and are largely in the dark about what they take. When asked if someone has any medical history, a person with a severe heart condition will most often answer, "not really". When I finally get the right info from them, and ask them about medications they take, they generally respond "something for my heart". They don't know if their heart runs too fast, too slow, etc.

Secondary to that is the fact that people see a variety of doctors for their medical care- primary doctors, and specialists- who all prescribe medicines and may have absolutely no idea about the other medicines the person takes. So you have the primary doctor giving some viagra and the cardiologist giving a nitro spray. The combination of the two in any 24 hour period is a recipe for death.

I do give credit to the elderly, though. It seems that the older the patient is, the more "with it" they are with regard to their medical care. They are more often able to state the names of their medications, and know approximately what sort of effects they're used to achieve. In other words, they may tell me they take drug X for high blood pressure, whereas a person younger than them is much more inclined to say "I dunno, I think it's for my heart. Don't know the name of it." I got that guy just a few shifts ago. It turned out to be a blood thinner that doesn't act on his heart, but is used to keep blood in his heart from clotting due to a heart condition he has. So you see, it would be very easy for someone to think, "oh, he has high blood pressure on my monitor, and says he takes something for his heart, I better give him something to slow it down." And then he'd be fucked. Giving him something to slow down his heart with the heart condition he has would nearly (if not actually) kill him.

Know your meds, and know basically what they do. It's not hard to do, and anything short of that is laziness or assuming every medical professional you run into will magically know everything you're on from every single doctor you see. We don't. If people educated themselves a little, most of this issue would be resolved.

Cynthetiq

I assume you are referring to these statistics Table 26, Table 7 and Table 8

Again, correlation does not imply causation. Those are your reasons and rationale.

Is it possible that other factors like personal choice drive this and NOT the medical industry? More women are taking elective primary cesarean delivery. I leap in that direction because people now want a definitive everything today. They want to know exactly when something is going to happen via an appointment. The woman that I replaced at work scheduled her c-section because she wanted to "control" the date (said as she exactly told me.) Also, is it possible that some women are afraid of the pain of vaginal birth, opting for "less" pain via c-section? Or that some women believe that they would rather manage scar tissue rather than pain?

Also, your response to #4 is your experience, are there any other negatives that are broader? People thinking you are nuts is a negative yes, but that's opinion. I think that vegans are nuts, but that has no impact on anything. Your husband working through is your husband's issue, does that happen to all freebirthing husbands? What are the medical downsides. Again you've cited the pro's but what are the negative implications?

analog, exactly.

Many people don't bother. Elderly do I believe because the younger caretakers tend to drill it into their heads that it is important, yet two things happen here. First, they don't listen to their own advice, and second, that medical information isn't passed onto the rest of the family. Thus if something happens to the primary caretaker of the elderly, the other siblings may not know what history the elder has.

As far as I'm concerned I was trained from a young age to say emphatically whenever I was getting any medical care that I am allergic to penicillin and all it's derivatives, and to let them know all presciptions currently being taken. Now all this practice for years, did not prepare me for what I discovered later after two bouts with pancreatitis, that I had neglected to tell the doctor that prior to getting to the ER both times, that I had taken 400mg of ibuprofen because I had a severe headache. I had not thought of any interaction, nor need to tell the doctor of an over the counter medication.

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abaya

Well, if the "Hastrup, 1992" cited is in fact Kirsten Hastrup, then that's a legit sources... she's a well-known anthropologist/historian of Iceland.

However, I don't really see how the breastfeeding bit is connected to the freebirthing thing... women choose to breastfeed or not breastfeed for all kinds of different reasons, and many of them don't even have a choice (my aunt had to use a pump to feed her son, because it wasn't working otherwise). I don't see the connection.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jenny Hatch

It may be offensive to you as a health care worker, but if people were dropping like flies eating vitamin C, you can bet the FDA would be all over it, banning this important nutrient as if it were rat poison.

The pattern of the pharma companies is they ride a new drug out as long as they can until the lawsuits start piling up and public outcry gets to be so bad they can't stifle it any longer, and then they pull the drug.

Remember, it was Eli Lily that gave us LSD and PCP. It took an act of congress to get those drugs (Which had been hailed as cures for alcoholism, mental illness and were being given to birthing women all over america - during their births) pulled from the marketplace.

The CDC calls it accidental death, I call it murder.

Have you heard of the drug cytotec? It is being used all over the world to induce labor in pregnant women, yet the FDA has not approved this ulcer drug for use on pregnant women. The docs use it because it is cheap and it produces these overwhelming contractions. The nurses call it Cytoblast because of the effect it has on labor.

This drug has been the cause of uterine ruptures in mothers who have not even had a c-section because it is so powerful. Mothers and babies are dying because of its use. WHO is going to stop the use of it, if the doctors feel free to use any drug they want without it even being approved? This is one of the main reasons I give birth at home. Some doctors will come in and put some of it on a womans cervix without even telling her what it is. No informed consent, the only thing she knows is that her labor just became so painful she wants to die.

Jenny

Charlatan

So rather than strengthen the FDA drug approval process you would toss the baby with the bathwater and ban all drugs?

I just want to be clear because that's what it sounds like you are suggesting.

Your approach to medical assisted childbirth is very much a baby and the bathwater sort of thing. Instead of recognizing the good that can and does come from what we have learned you would rather retreat to the dark ages and higher death rates during childbirth.

As with most things... it's never a black and white story.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Cynthetiq

I don't think the FDA will approvefor that usage based on the FDA's own warnings:

In today's world of lawyers, I cannot see any doctor in the United States freely giving this without any thought or consent. I'm having a hard time understanding your ulcer claim since:

Quite a broad definition of murder. Definitely an emotional response to garner attention since it isn't under any definition I understand. I may understand if you followed your blog doctors and called it manslaughter. Murder needs to have intent. Drug companies are not in the business of intentionally killing their customers.

I agree that the FDA approval process needs to be strengthened. The phamacueticals have lobbied for less stringent processes since it is an extremely competitive marketplace.

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lurkette

DINGDINGDINGDING!!!! Quoted for truth.

I can't disagree that many doctors rush the childbirth process for the convenience of the staff. What this would argue for is greater patient education and advocacy, and reform of medical obstetrical practices, not going it alone in your own home with no support and no medical recourse in case of catastrophic complications. If you want to give birth at home for spiritual and empowering reasons, there's no compelling argument against having a trained midwife or doula present, and having a backup plan involving a rapid trip to the hospital if complications should arise.

Also, if you do choose a hospital birth, go in educated and prepared to advocate for your wishes. People are too quick to accede to doctors' advice without comment or argument - they work for you! If you are concerned about the high rates of episiotomies, induction, etc., do your homework and be insistent! Make your wishes known adamantly to the doctor and medical staff ahead of time, and repeat them frequently during the birthing process, and make sure anybody who's with you knows your wishes and is prepared to defend them. But there comes a time when doctors may, in fact, know best.

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

ngdawg

Since it is not clear that the comments made stipulate the location of that practice, I would make the assumption that it rare in the US, if done at all.
As a former denizen of a Debating forum, this is common practice by many who want to browbeat their views into those who attempt to oppose them. It's simply a fundamentalist's MO. By using emotionally provocative wording, they think they'll get their point across and change the mindset of their adversaries. It's a cheap shot, quite frankly and a total turn-off to those of us who actually want to learn through discussion.
Billions of dollars are at stake for both the altruistics of curing and helping and the potential to make lots of profits. Of course, no one goes into the manufacturing of pharmaceuticals with the thought that they'll do more harm than good. I am of the thought the FDA is between a rock and a hard place and probably needs some overhauling to remain purely objective and still be able to function with expedience.


In citing the stats for the increase of C-sections, etc., it should be pointed out that corellating with those increases are the increases in births to mothers over 35 and in multiples.
Source
Of course, there is also the rise of women with careers that not only put off having children later in life but, because of their high-powered positions, opt to have the surgery for various(to me, vain) reasons. Ironically, though, natural childbirth allows for much faster and healthier healing after childbirth and, with good medical care, makes for very little, if any, risk, as opposed to C-sections, which carry many risks.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Jinn

You should've opened with this. It might've helped you convince other people with similar beliefs why you feel the process is necessary - so you can still have babies after the second Coming of the Lord.

"Leaps of logic" such as your correlation between assisted birth and violence are more easily accepted by those willing to suspend logic and/or have leaps of "faith."

And opening with that line would have assisted those of us who are rigorously scientific (many in this thread) in recognizing that you'd be providing more rhetoric and appeals to emotion than scientific evidence.

Appeal to the correct audience, if your goal is truly to recruit soldiers for your campaign of truth.

__________________
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Jenny Hatch

I'm not saying it is a black and white story.

What I would like to see happen is for all drugs to be legalized (Including street drugs), the insane steps that the pharma companies have to go through to get their dope on the market should be opened completely up to allow the smaller companies to compete, and all government money should be pulled out of the process.

The FDA is in the pockets of the big pharma companies anyway and is completely ineffective as a regulatory agency.
If people want drugs, let them have at it in whatever form they desire. They are doing it anyway, even with all of the regulations and rules we have in place as a society.

THEN, educate our young women on the linkage between drugged births and drug addiction later in life and teach them how to give birth without drugs.

Then completely privatize the medical profession, take away all government money, private insurance, and let people pay out of pocket for the medical services they want to use.

If you have not noticed yet, I am a capitalist. I believe market forces will regulate the industry far more effectively and with greater efficiency than any other sort of system.


Do I believe that will happen in my lifetime? Nope, not in a million years would any politician have the courage to start talking about privatizing health care. But it will happen anyway when the sustem starts to crash as it is in the UK, and as it always done through out history when socialized medicine is put in place.

Those of us promoting feebirth do not consider it a step back, we see it as a leap forward....leading to millennial stuff like lions laying down with lambs, babies living to the age of a tree, and "there shall no more thence be an infant of days" to quote Isaiah the prophet.

We envision every mother and father so empowered with information about how to create a healthy child, that the only time they would ever even consider going into a hospital to give birth by c-section would be if the mother had an accident that produced a crushed pelvis or some other scenario where the surgery would indeed save both the mother and the babe.

The world health organization says that no country should have a section rate of more than 10%. And absolutely nothing is being done to change course.

Recently I met up with a fellow bradley teacher at a girls track meet for our daughters and asked her what is changing in birth. She continued to teach the past ten years, while I dropped out to promote Freebirth full time on the internet.

First and foremost, she said the parents are afraid. And the moms don't want to even try to have a natural birth. She had to stop teaching her independent class, (Even though we live in Boulder county in colorado) cause few people wanted to learn how to give birth without drugs. Because she is a nurse, she was hired by the local hospital to teach childbirth classes.

I asked her about the section rate increase and she said the labor nurses are really excited. They want it to go even higher because it makes things so much easier for them. Instead of having to sit up all night with a mom attempting a natural birth, they get to prep a woman for surgery and an hour later the child is "safely" out, and then they can focus on helping mom recover from the surgery and keep the babe for a couple days and it's cha ching $$$ cha ching for the hospital, and they largely don't have to deal with the law suit issue because they have already performed the most interventionist, heroic effort possible.

I don't want to give birth in that environment, where all paths lead to the surgery. Medical people are HOSTILE to natural childbirth mommas. I endured that hostility for three births. No more.

Jenny

Are you kidding me? This drug is being used all over the country to induce labor. It has become standard of care in obstetrics. Google cytotec and read the stuff at midwifery today on it. Here are a couple of quotes. And yes, they are using it without informed consent. What mother in her right mind would agree to something that would give her child a one in four chance of survival after a rupture? Want to know why the infant mortality rate is going up up up? Cytotec.

Marsden Wagner:

"Without adequate testing of Cytotec (misoprostol) for labor induction, obstetricians simply began to use it on their birthing women. They were taking advantage of a huge loophole in our drug regulatory system. Once a drug is approved by the FDA for a specific medical indication and put on the market, there is absolutely nothing to prevent any doctor from using that drug for any indication, in any dose, for any patient he or she chooses. Since the label of the drug contains the indications approved by the FDA, this is called "off-label" use of a drug.

When obstetricians using Cytotec induction are confronted about their willingness to use a drug "off-label," they inevitably answer: "We use drugs off-label all the time." There are several serious problems with this answer. First, in reality, using Cytotec for induction is not "off-label" at all—it is "on-label contraindicated." On the Cytotec label it is explicitly written that this drug is contraindicated for use on pregnant women. Contraindication would not be on the label unless data exist suggesting possible serious risks from such use. "On-label contraindicated" is a whole different level of risk-taking than a use that is not mentioned one way or the other on the label.

A second reason to be concerned with the offhand answer of some obstetricians is that all off-label use is lumped together as though there were equal risks involved. During a case I was involved in, I asked the obstetrician about the off-label use of Cytotec for labor induction. He replied with the same answer that I have heard from so many clinicians: "We use Cytotec off-label for induction just like we use other drugs off-label all the time."

Compare this to someone involved in a fatal car accident who is asked why he did not follow traffic laws and drove 100 miles an hour in a 25 mile an hour zone. The driver answers: "Traffic laws are disobeyed all the time. Why just last week there were dozens of parking tickets given out in this city." You can't compare the risks of excessive speeding with the risks of illegal parking.

And you can't compare the risks of Cytotec induction with the risk involved in giving other drugs to pregnant women off-label. A survey of 731 pregnant women revealed they had been given 10 drugs while pregnant (1). But of the 10 drugs given off-label, the use of nine of them on pregnant women carried very little risk while the use of the tenth drug, the prostaglandins (including Cytotec), have proven serious risks including uterine rupture, following which one in four babies die."

Please keep reading about cytotec...especially if you are pregnant. When ACOG decides to ban its use during labor, I may consider the idea that American Obstetrics is actually about the health of the mother and child.

Read stuff by Ina May Gaskin, Marsden Wagner, and puruse all of the lawyer sites offering to help families disabled by cytotec. It is being used in America TODAY!!! and

It is one of the main reasons I chose to give birth at home alone.

Jenny

Martian

I will not join the greater argument on the merits of free-birth, as I feel my views are already being adequately represented. However, I felt obligated to clarify this, as I think this would be a bad topic for someone to get the wrong impression about.

Superglue is not one substance; it is a category of substances known as cyanoacrylates. Cynthetiq is right to note that it was at one point tested for wound treatment, but the formulas used in over-the-counter hardware store superglue didn't get FDA approval. The reason for that is that these chemicals undergo a reaction when applied to living tissue; as an exothermic reaction it will cause skin irritation and in extreme cases, burns. Further to that, they break down into toxic substances (cyanoacetate and formaldehyde), which can further cause inflammation, granulation and even tissue necrosis. The reaction is also aqueous (water-dependent) and will react more severely when applied to tissue with a lot of moisture. All of this adds up to mean that putting superglue on warm, moist, permeable tissue like that found in and around your vagina is a very, very bad idea. If you are going to do this, make sure to use a surgical glue; you can get them now as liquid band-aid and the like right over the counter and they are a much milder formula.

supporting linky

__________________
I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept
I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept
I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head
I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said

- Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

Cynthetiq

Have to call bullshit here. Where is any data showing that? Drugged Births and drug addiction???

I don't have access to my ob/gyn friend at the moment, so I cannot comment on if and how widespread "off-label" usage is.

I will however slot my beliefs of this as more hysterical than imperical. You have shown very little data in any of the websites you've cited that show any correlation to corroborate your claims.

__________________
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Charlatan

Completely deregulate the drug industry?

Let me get this straight. You would suggest that consumers should let the market decide which drugs are good and which ones are bad. So when a drug company puts a drug on the market and claims it does "x" the drug will only become accepted by the mainstream consumer when many others purchase it too.

But in the case of drugs this is not as simple as it works or doesn't work. In the case of drugs you get things like Thalidomide or other weird side-effects. A capitalist system wouldn't necessarily check for side-effects before rushing to market. But of course the early users can week out the bad drugs right?

You can still be a capitalist and recognize that regulation of the marketplace is essential. The key is working to make regulations stronger and less vulnerable to corruption.

The insanity of the US healthcare system is not going to be solved by less government intervention. It just isn't going to happen. The real answer is in some form of Universal health care.

__________________
"My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars."
- Old Man Luedecke

Jenny Hatch

Corruption is the key word in this whole drug scam. I don't think you give the Average Consumer enough credit. The whole system is set up to reward bad behavior. Bad behavior at the FDA, Bad Behavior by the drug companies and individual people not feeling any need to take personal responsibility for health care costs because Uncle Sam is going to pick up the bill.

By privatizing health care, every bit and particle of it, a very quick sifting would take place in terms of what procedures and drugs are truly helping people, costs for surgeries would regulate down to a manageable level, and the scam artists on all fronts (Insurance fraud, billing fraud, legal fraud) would be better exposed if consumers had to directly pay individual doctors for individual care.

Why hasn't Lasik eye surgery gone the way of all the rest of American Surgery and priced out of the range of the average consumer. Because no insurance company will pay for it. Does that mean no one in America gets lasik? Nope, my own sister in law who works as a massage therapist and is always on the verge of poverty was able to cough up the $2,000.00 to get this great surgery. Why? Because it was important to her.

I feel the same way about Elective C-Sections. If women want them, fine. Let them pay for them like they would any other elective surgery.

You watch, as we get closer to getting socialized in america the docs will all of a sudden raise the prices on EVERYTHING to set in stone the money that we the people will have to fork out to pay for that nationalized health care.

Childbirth costs have soared for years, but I predict them soaring out of sight before this next election, so that when a congress is put in place that will actually vote it into being, as it is heralded as the best thing since sliced bread, the taxpayers will get fully soaked for the abomination of the allopathic birth machine being funded as is for the duration.

Freebirthers are a threat in the way that homeschoolers are a threat to the education establishment. Homeschoolers pay out of pocket what a nationalized education does for ten grand a kid per year. They do it cheaper, often better, and with the second generation of homeschooling families now coming along it has hit the mainstream.

Freebirth is where homeschool was in the early 70's.

I don't think it will take as long for us to go mainstream, especially since America has a death wish with this rush to nationalized health care. Assumption being that allopathy is the absolute best choice for health. Leaving out of the equation all of the amazing things that can be offered to consumers in the form of chiropractic, homeopathic, and a variety of other healing modalities.

I just want to make certain that we are not legislated out of the picture. Families who are ready to birth a child will increasingly need a safe place to land as things contort out of control over the next few decades.

Freebirth fits the bill to a T.

Jenny

ngdawg

Here in NJ, you pay property taxes that cover primary education. Homeschooling is no cheaper; you're going to pay for school whether you want to or not. I realize it's not like that in every state, but close enough that homeschooling in general is not a cost saver. You pay taxes that cover schooling no matter how those taxes come about. They don't ask you how many kids you have, then charge you for school use as far as I know.
If your theory about health costs held water, a face lift would be cheaper than it is. Fact of the matter is that medical costs rise not only to 'line pockets', but to pay for the exorbitant malparactice insurance, pay back the exorbitant college costs, etc. Today's word is 'inflationary'. True, insurance companies are reaping huge profits, but, being a 'capitalist', that should be acceptable.
If consumers were the drug controllers, we'd have hopped up grannies and kids whose parents fed them antibiotics for every sniffle, to the point where a dirty dollar would make them bedridden for days. Never underestimate the power of group stupidity.
Uncle Sam doesn't pay any of my medical bills...sure wish he would, they'll drive me to ruin between what we pay out for insurance and what insurance doesn't pay. Fact is, many working families can't or don't have medical insurance for a variety of reasons, so don't blame it all on 'personal responsibility'. And, as insurance is such big business, we won't see national socialized medicine. Congressional liberals, et al, can speak of it all they want, but it ain't gonna happen. It'd change the financial infrastructure too much. Insurance companies comprise a huge section of the stock market and banking community, have powerful lobbies and very influential CEO's.
I find it odd that you're so adamantly against the medical and pharmaceutical establishments as a whole. If there's a few bad truckers, do we stop shipping goods? Some incompetent teachers, so let's shut the schools?
How on earth would freebirth fit any bill other than personal choice? I usually applaud those that were able to have their kids smoothly and through their own choosing, but your posts so far resemble a sort of tantrum against 'the establishment'. If it weren't for that establishment you have such disdain for, one or both of my kids would not be here, literally from start to finish.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Jenny Hatch

The drug generation in America came One Generation after widespread drug use in birth. An experiment that had never before played out in our worlds history. Ever wonder why so many kids of the 60's and 70's were drawn to drugs?

Momma was drugged with what they then called "twilight sleep", a combination of general anesthetics that made it so the woman was completely out and the docs used forceps to yank the baby out. One generation after this type of birth of the 40's and 50's we all of a sudden had all these teens and young adults drawn to drugs.

Childbirth activists have been talking about it for years. As for compelling double blind scientific studies, despite various people calling for those huge expensive studies for the past 40 years, the drug companies have played deaf, blind, and dumb and just pretend nothing is wrong and there is no connectivity.

A few small studies have been done in Europe and Asia, but I'm not going to do your homework for you. Go find em. They are out there.

The newest linkage going on is between kids who spend months in NICU care feeling drawn to Raves, cutting, and Tatooing. They generally start to feel like getting into this behavior when they are fifteen.

Not too many studies on that either, why kill the cash cow of newborn NICU's, again mostly funded by the taxpayers, as families who get those million dollar bills often go on medicare and government picks up the tab.

My cynacism towards the birth machine, or the BS, as you call it, is only further fueled by the lack of understanding on the part of obstetricians and NICU pediatricians of the role that prenatal nutrition plays in the prevention of Toxemia and Prematurity. They know NOTHING and they have been taught nothing about it in medical school.

Google Tom Brewer MD, he was a doctor in the truest sense of the word. Consumate researcher, practitioner, writer, scholar, and Passionate activist working to normalize and standardize prenatal nutrition as the foremost key to a healthy baby.

Did anyone on this board have a doctor ask them what they were eating while pregnant? I never did, not once during the three pregnancies that I went to them for prenatals. Yet it is in fact the key to a healthy pregnancy, great birth, and abundant breastmilk supply.

Jenny Hatch