Jenny Hatch

It is somewhat crazy to think that women who are part of our very educated and proactive group of mothers would ever be compared to mothers in the poorest sections of the country, befuddled by poverty and illiteracy, and then that so called PROOF thrust in our faces as to why we should go to a hospital to give birth.

Talk about appealing to emotions.

As I said before, many of the women, and I am one of them, who choose freebirth, do it simply because we do not want to have another section.

The debate comes down to this:

Is birth INHERENTLY dangerous?

Based on my research, when a mother is well nourished, has some good information on birth, and even better, is in good shape physically....birth is safe most of the time, for most women.

Why should I, as a healthy woman, subject myself to the insanity of American Birth when I know it can be done a thousand times better in my own bedroom?

Infant mortality is just that, infant mortality of children under a year of age. It is NOT birth mortality. That is not me putting my hands over my ears and yelling "NO, a thousand times no, I will NOT listen".

It is a fact.


In using the straw man argument of infant mortality to dismiss freebirth, so many other factors are left out of the equation.

Economics.

Impact of traumatic birth in hospital on a marriage.

Inability to give birth to more children because of permanent damage during surgical birth, (which is increasing in America).

Liver Toxicity in the baby from too many drugs.

Brain damage in the baby from too many drugs.

Lack of ability to breastfeed, I already shared Dr. Odents studies outlining why surgical birth has such a horrifying impact on milk production.

Lack of immediate post partum bonding, cause baby is in the NICU and momma is getting stitched up.

And the less intangible but equally alarming:

Permanent scarring from episiotomy which can have a horrifying effect on a womans ability to enjoy sex.

As an aside, would you as a mother prefer to have a fourth degree episiotomy with tearing down to the rectum, or would you like to enjoy the mother of all orgasms (as many freebirthers are describing experiencing during couple births) surrounded by candles and soft music and only your lover in the room? Click on this link to watch an amazing birth.

Here is a link to a YouTUBE clip from our childbirth video, A Clear Road to Birth.


I appreciate the time it must have taken you to post all of those tables and links about infant mortality....but this movement is about so much more than the fear of dead babies.

Once again I will ask, Can anyone convince me WHY I should go into a hospital to give birth in 2007?


I am not here to try to convince any of you to have a freebirth. I've done my homework and at this time in our nations history it is the safest, most prudent form of birth I can think of to accomplish the goal of creating a healthy family.

Please convince me how I am wrong in this analysis.

Jenny Hatch

ngdawg

Regarding that last line about having babies in hospital with midwives, I don't see why midwives can't deliver at home or birth centers providing there was prenatal care and everyone determined to be healthy.
I know I didn't care much for the hospital such as it was, but I also know there was no way these kids were going to be born at home-too many things went wrong during the pregnancy to risk it. I had complete trust in my physician, bottom line, and, while it didn't go as planned and as smoothly as we'd hoped, the real result of having two healthy babies certainly outweighed sticking to any dream we may have had. Stitches heal, but 15 years later, I still start to cry when I think about how I almost lost them.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Jenny Hatch

Midwives are increasingly under fire in America, even those who provide excellent prenatal care, and deliver according to doctors rules (we call them medwives).


I referred to orgasmic childbirth, here are a couple of testimonials. Compiled by Laura Shanley

My introduction to the concept that birth could be orgasmic came via my college roommate Kim. We were discussing painless birth (I had just read Childbirth without Fear) when Kim casually said, "You know, some women actually have orgasms as they're giving birth. My mom had one with me."

What?! Even as open minded as I thought I was, the concept was almost embarrassing. I imagined this "mother" lying in a hospital bed, having an orgasm in front of a bunch of strangers - and doctors, no less. Yet I was definitely intrigued. If conception feels good, why not childbirth?

In the years to come, I would read about this phenomenon again and again, and although in my own births I was never able to achieve it, I think that in time, it will become more commonplace. Little by little, our culture is ridding itself of the fear, shame, and guilt that keep many of us from experiencing sex - let alone birth - as orgasmic. Perhaps someday, if we can fully accept our sexual natures, more of us will be able to know the joy that the following women have known.


* * * * * * * * * *


"I had been told to expect a 'dogging pain,' but was unprepared for the sensation of sexual ecstasy, the voluptuous feeling of penetration....Crouched on my knees on the little afghan, I caught the infant who rushed from my vagina into the small world between my legs, in the midst of an extraordinary orgasm from the inside out."-From They Don't Call it a Peak Experience for Nothing, by Ruth Claire(Mothering, Fall 1989)

"I feel the baby come down. The sensation is ecstatic. I had prepared somewhat for this being as painful as my last delivery had been. Yet this time the pulse of birth feels wonderful! I am building up to the birth climax after nine months of pleasurable foreplay. With one push the babe is in the canal. THE NEXT PUSH BRINGS HIM DOWN, DOWN INTO THAT SPACE JUST BEFORE ORGASM WHEN WE WOMEN KNOW HOW GOD MUST HAVE FELT CREATING THIS PLANET....HE COMES, AS DO I."
-From Prenatal Yoga and Natural Birth, by Jeannine Parvati Baker

"I had the most sought-after midwife in France - my competent and funny aunt Marie-Therese, whose radical idea it was that childbirth above all should feel sexy. I listened to nothing but gospel music during my pregnancy, a music quite new to me, and to France, and "It's a High Way to Heaven" ("...nothing can walk up there, but the pure in heart...") was playing on the stereo during the birth; the warmth of the singers' voices a perfect accompaniment to the lively fire in the fireplace. My vulva oiled and massaged to keep my hips open and my vagina fluid, I was orgasmic at the end. Petit Pierre practically slid into the world at the height of my amazement, smiling serenely even before he opened his eyes."
-From Possessing the Secret of Joy, a novel by Alice Walker

"Many mothers experience a burning or splitting sensation as the largest diameter of the baby's head passes through the birth outlet. Some actually experience orgasm."-From Mind Over Labor, by Carl Jones, C.C.E.

"In 1968, I gave birth to Robert Kirkpatrick. I was prepared, conscious, and in charge. After 4 hours from the onset of labour, I experienced an orgasm when my baby emerged from my body."-From "Ecstatic Birth: The conscious evolution of a possibility to a present reality," by Binnie A. Dansby; Paper delivered at Congress of the International Society for Pre- and Peri- Natal Psychology and Medicine, Jerusalem, 1989

"I happen to think that having babies is very sexy. The actual birth is so sensuous, very erotic. The feelings we've both had at the birth of each of our babies were so primal."
-Kate Capshaw Spielberg (a.k.a. Mrs. Steven Spielberg), McCall's, May 1999

"I started pushing while Michael supported me as I squatted. Immediately, after one vigorous push I felt Damian coming down. A tremendous excitement filled the kitchen and Michael and I seemed to merge as our eyes met. It was as if we had become one again as we did in a genital embrace. Yes, we were one. It was not just I who was having the baby. Michael was as well. The moment had become ecstatic. Sensations of every kind and color coursed through me. I was one, one with everything....And with that I shouted in sheer delight as I felt Damian coming....out he shot, into the safety of Michael's confident hands."
-From Happy Birth Days, by Marilyn Moran

"Biologically, you are designed to receive great pleasure from your body not only during lovemaking and intercourse, but in birth and breastfeeding, too....Birth offers sexual pleasure on a continuum from pleasant sensations (felt while your uterus rhythmically contracts in early labor if you're relaxed and feeling secure) to an intense birth climax (yes, just like an orgasm) as your baby slithers into the world of your waiting arms."
-From A Good Birth, A Safe Birth, by Diana Korte and Roberta Scaer

"This birth was not only painless, but very pleasurable. We had never read about this aspect, and it took us by surprise. As the baby crowned, I knew from Jean's look and sounds that she was having an explosive orgasm, which rolled on and on. What a long way from the pain and agony of conventional myth! Years later we asked a sympathetic doctor about this. 'Yes,' he said, 'I've seen it a few times. It may even be that many women have orgasms during birth, but interpret them as pain because the sensations are more intense than anything previously experienced and because women are conditioned to expect pain.'"
-From The Home School Challenge, by Donn Reed

"Giving birth is a highly creative act full of orgasmic feelings, and can be a moment of ecstatic pleasure for the mother."
-From "Mental First Aid in Pregnancy and Childbirth," by Joost A.M. Meerloo, M.D. (Child and Family, Fall 1966)

"Pleasure in birth may be the starting point for optimal family relationships. Our knowledge of reproduction suggests there may be a biological reason for connecting pleasure in birth with the best outcome for the baby."
-From "Psychological Factors in Birth and Breastfeeding," by Niles Newton, Ph.D.

"Pushing was absolutely incredible. It felt SO good. I loved the sensation of my daughter's head popping out; and her body coming out was incredible. I made roaring sounds. KT later asked me if I was in a lot of pain and I said I felt no pain at all. I was reaching down into the depths of my being - I felt like I was reaching back through time eternal, into the Great Mother herself - and using my power to push her out. The sounds were sounds of power. And I felt awesomely empowered. It was I could say the best feeling I have ever had. Primal force of life coursing through me. Power of Woman, Power of Birth, Power of Carolyn! If I can do that, I can do anything I set my mind to. The sensation of my daughter's body sliding out of my vagina was orgasmic. I still shudder when I think of how pleasurable that was."
-Caroline S.

"A woman in California was giving birth at home in a portable birth tub and feeling very sexy and loving with her partner. Each time she had a contraction she would cry out, 'Oh, baby, I love it. More...more!' Her windows were open because it was July, and soon a crowd gathered outside her home. When the baby was born amidst shouts of 'Yes!!! Yes!!! Oh, my God, yes!!!' her neighbors gave her a great round of applause. They only realized that it was a birth after they heard the cries of a baby."
-From Gentle Birth Choices, by Barbara Harper, R.N.

"It was the ultimate climax. I felt open, loose and free. Words cannot explain the feeling as my baby's body slithered out. To this day I can still sense that wonderful feeling inside. It makes me tingle."
-From "Unconditional Faith," by Allison Scimeca in the book Unassisted Homebirth: An Act of Love , by Lynn Griesemer

"Yet in a strange way the energy flowing through the body in childbirth, the pressure of contracting muscles, the downward movement of the baby and the fanning open of soft tissues, can be powerfully erotic....[Childbirth] can be the most intensely sexual feeling a woman ever experiences, as strong as orgasm, even more compelling than orgasm."
-From Women's Experience of Sex, by Sheila Kitzinger

"Birth is fundamentally a creative act, as is the act of sexual union....Indeed many women have described giving birth as intensely pleasurable and have discussed it in orgasmic terms....more and more women are enjoying labor and birth with their husbands just as they have enjoyed the sexual experience....Making love, orgasm and giving birth are all inter-connected."
-From Special Delivery, by Rahima Baldwin

"It was ecstatic, wonderful, thrilling. I heard myself moaning - in triumph, not in pain! There was no pain whatsoever, only a primitive and sexual elation....With the most spiraling, fascinating thrill of all, I felt my baby slither out. I wanted to shout with joy."
-From Natural Childbirth and the Christian Family, by Helen Wessel

"My first son was born by unexpected cesarian section. My second was a planned homebirth with a midwife assisting. He was posterior, so it was all back labor and he wouldn't turn. There was a great deal of pain, but in the last few minutes, as much pain as there was, it suddenly swung the other way to huge waves of pleasure as his body came out - an incredible RUSH like nothing I had ever felt before or since. I said to my midwife, Dhyana, 'Wow! What was that thing in the end!?' She said, 'That was The Gift. A lot of my ladies get that.' I held that baby and instantly loved him with my whole being. Maybe this is the way that nature had intended it to be for us. Now, looking back, the only thing I can think is that he went ramrod over my G-spot...all 9 pounds of him."
-From "The Gift," by Susan

"I asked my husband to make love to me as I was in a very romantic mood and wanted to feel him inside me urgently. It was a wonderful experience. I had a few orgasms during contractions - an absolutely delightful sensation. There was no pain at all....(since then) our lovemaking has gone from great to extraordinary."
-From "The Effect of Lovemaking on the Progress of Labor," by Marilyn Moran (Pre- and Perinatal Psychology Journal, Spring 1993)

"Birth has much in common with orgasm; the hormone oxytocin is released, there are uterine contractions, nipple erection, and under the best circumstances for birth, an orgasmic feeling."
-From In Labor, by Barbara K. Rothman

"Birth is a dark, private, and secret opening up of our ancient sexual selves. Birth sensations, when we allow them to be, are actually highly sensual - much like the intense, luscious, squeezing contracting that happens during orgasms experienced in late pregnancy.... the sensations of giving birth are not fierce and violent; they are rapturous - we feel an ever-increasing pressure on our cervix as our body prepares for the sweetest, most intense of orgasms, the lovely culmination of our labors of love: birth. During birth, we pant, scream, and throw our head back - this is sensuality with a purpose: we are taking in extra oxygen, releasing adrenaline into our bloodstream, and widening our pelvic outlet. And when the baby comes out all slick and new, we are in ecstasy, enraptured by the most heightened hormonal load we will ever know."
-From Resexualizing Childbirth, by Leilah McCracken

"At about 3 AM, I got a real feeling that the baby needed to be born, and also a great surge of energy, the first I had felt. Then I made a very astounding discovery. I was able, through prayer, to get knowledge directly from God, that birth is a sexual event, and involves the same mechanisms that the beginnings involve. I was able to get my labor started again and I was in hard labor within 15 minutes. As long as I was alone and able to yield to the sexual joy of the birthing, I was able to experience wonderful orgasmic feelings and no pain at all."
-From Pat Goltz, in the newsletter, The New Nativity, edited by Marilyn Moran

"My body told me to squat, so I did. I hunkered down on two feet, concentrating, knowing without being told that millions of females before me had brought their babies into the world in this ordained position. It felt so deliciously comfortable to squat; I felt the baby move down. Come...COME... COMMMMME!

It was then I began to scream, but not with pain - with joy. With release. I felt an enormous all-body orgasm as I bore down, again, and again, and again, crying out with lust and happiness. The baby was coming, and so was I. I pushed an enormous last push with every fiber of my being; the head and shoulders appeared. By then I was sobbing. I reached under the baby's armpits and pulled out...a child. A living, breathing infant...born perfect. Perfectly beautiful. My daughter."
-From Awakening, by Jen Bradley

"I returned upstairs with some of Stella's dance tapes. Belly dancing to the music, I found that the contractions were much more bearable....Oddly enough, the more obscenely I thrust my pelvis back and forth, the less it hurt. I was amazed! Why hadn't I known that these movements were linked to the act of birthing, I wondered....Moments later, I discovered that all the pelvic thrusting I had been doing in my life - dancing to get a date, making love, and now, giving birth - was integrally connected. All that thrusting had gotten me pregnant, and all this thrusting would help bring a new life into the world. While the drums banged in my head, I was serene knowing that I had found the secret to life: the glorious pelvic thrust."
-From "The Glorious Pelvic Thrust," by Maria Young Alders (Mothering, Winter 1994)

"Birth is always intimate and sexual, although the intimacy and the sexuality can be masked. My own personal experience of the births of my children confirms this. My feelings throughout my wife's labors I can describe only as those of a very close, physical-emotional, sexual union with her and what I felt to be the transcendent force flowing through her. The sensation was warm and soft, like making love, but was also strong, forceful and awesome. Each time the experience changed my life and allowed me a glimpse of the transcendental."
-Lewis E. Mehl, M.D., quoted in "Psychophysiological Aspects of Childbirth," in The Psychology of Birth, by Leslie Feher

Cynthetiq

My God. Befuddled by poverty and illiteracy. I love it. That's a good one. Nothing in those graphs shows or indicates anything of poverty or illiteracy. In fact that factor alone provides different factors. Nothing I have typed with my fingers in this thread has anything emotional attached to it.

Pick any of the countries that have the lowest infant mortality rate Iceland one of the highest literacy rates and poverty is low, Hong Kong, Canda, Germany, France. See the states that spend more on medicine.

Again, you insert words to push emotion into the discussion (if we can even call it that at this point.)

What does that mean? Inherently? Dangerous? Another set of emotionally charged words to obfusicate the discussion at hand.

Make your definition, make your clarification for yourself.

I will say that yes it is inherently dangerous because the evidence shows that death of the infant or the mother is greater than zero. Is jaywalking inherently dangerous? Maybe not in the middle of nowhere, but in midtown Manhattan, it has a risk of greater than zero. Again, the idea here minimizing the danger right? You believe and feel that freebirth defined as unassisted birth at home with no intervention of medically trained staff or midwives, provides you better safety. That is your choice.

Since you asked about Perinatal Mortality Rates, there are MANY studies and lots of data. I will cite just two of them.

http://0-www.cdc.gov.mill1.sjlibrary...1/01hus023.pdf


Please note that the trend is downward as medicine has gotten better since the 1950's. If your hypothesis and claims were correct, then the perinatal mortality rate would be growing.

I can see here that ONE of the reasons that can happen is a physician, but it is qualified with the word inexperience. Not, "backed by pharmaceuticals" or "works in dirty cities, malnourished" and whatever qualifiers you've placed to emotionally charge the discussion. All the other causes happen, they are not qualified nor stated as cannot happen in house or hospital.

from WHO.INT
There is plenty of data showing that deaths during birth have dramatically declined as medicine advances. I have cited a few already.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

ngdawg

Uhm....what do all those testimonials about orgasmic birth have to do with safety and health? Again, we're on one page, you're on another frantically trying to prove...what? That women should disregard medical advancement in obstetrics so they can have orgasms? WTF?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

analog

*shakes his head* I'm so glad that the large human dildo spreading her vagina open got her off. I'm still not sure she spoke to God, though. Maybe that was just the orgasm starting.

As for her and the rest of those "stories", how in the hell do they have any bearing on what we're discussing here?

EDIT: Didn't see ng's post. She said more than I did, I agree with what she wrote.

Cynthetiq

.

I would have to agree. I then read, "I referred to orgasmic childbirth, here are a couple of testimonials. Compiled by Laura Shanley." It cemented it for me that this discussion isn't about childbirth or protecting the child. It is about making the mother feel good.

It is exactly why this discussion hasn't been a discussion. It has been strictly presented fairly and simply, you don't address any of the points in front of you, but add emotionally charged words and then move the target.

I am glad that you have stopped here. I am very glad. This is a heavily trafficked site, and as you found us, other people looking for more information on freebirth. I hope that people find this and can easily make the decision as to what is good for themselves based on evidence presented in this discussion. I hope that they find this information least biased as far as your normal experiences which you claim you were dogpiled and flamed. I don't wish that upon anyone for their beliefs.

Why you should go to the hospital for childbirth? Because the evidence and statistics show that it is in the child's best interest.

So far your posts all show that your interests seem to be more rooted in the mother's interests. I have gone back and reread all your posts, to make sure that I'm not being biased in my opinion or missing some key element in your presentation of your side of the story.

All these emotionally charged statements have nothing to do with the benefit of the child, but have everything to do with the benefit for the mother. I'm with Sticky, it sounds like you are more about you and your well being than about the well being of the child.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Sticky

Exactly, and in order for all this to be OK it has to work out that it is OK for the baby.
That is why we have all this discussion that is better for the baby - babies grow up better adjusted and all that.

I just can't get past the fact that if there is a complication - and the article I posted mentions that there is some type complication (small to large) in 10% pof births - then I don't see how anyone can take the risk with their child.

Ya, fine, the risk may be small, but it is more risky then with a trained asistant or in the hospital. This is just logical.

It has been hard to find any stats on this stuff but I posted (in my last post) about an Indiana community where there were "300 unattended births in the 1980s. The neonatal death rate was calculated as 19 per 1,000 live births, compared with seven per 1,000 for the rest of Indiana."

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Sticky The Stickman

Cynthetiq

I was looking for the New Scientist Indiana study and haven't been able to find anything on it. I did however stumble upon this Junkfood Science blog entry.

Junkfood Science
I find this blog entry very interesting because she tries to show both sides. Jenny may try to dismiss the Uganda maternal mortality rates with waving her hand as being compared to "mothers in the poorest sections of the country, befuddled by poverty and illiteracy," What she is missing is the facts that poorer nations and poorer states have higher infant and maternal mortality rates.

Again, I have to thank Jenny for giving me the passion to do the due diligence in researching the actual facts surrounding childbirth.

Again, Jenny dismisses this because it is someone within the medical industry stating this information. Yet someone who is not within the industry cannot truly interpret the data and findings as suggested by abaya and sapiens earlier.

I must admit Sandy Szwarc, BSN, RN, CCP, the blog author is on point. Jenny is also on point within the same vein albeit misguided and misdirected. Jenny's premise is flawed from the beginning stating that the data isn't available, when it readily is. What is not readily available is data showing that freebirth is better. The best I can find is comparing lack of access to medical facilities and trained professionals has increased mortality rates for the mother and child.

Sandy, Thank You!!! We need more people to make these kinds of claims, "other social engineering classes they have to sit through, replace them with some sound medical, scientific and online media literacy could help prevent us repeating history. But it goes beyond critical thinking skills and education. The healthcare industry has some work to do, too. It does itself and consumers a disservice when in the eyes of the public it blurs the distinction between good, credible science and untenable modalities."

I love Sandy!!!!!

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Jenny Hatch

I also PRAY that people researching Freebirth will find this thread and thoughtfully consider the various comments that have been made. I also hope that those who are planning a hospital birth will consider what has been said.

As noted ad nauseum, sharing studies on birth that were conducted during the early 90's do not take into account the very real use of Cytotec for labor induction right now TODAY, the HMO depersonalization of continuity of care, nor the fact that more drugs than ever before are being eaten by pregnant women-both prescribed and over the counter meds. They also do not factor in lifestyle and quality of life issues, economics, or the very real issues surrounding the black hole of obstetrics, post partum care. All of the money, statistics, focus is on the birth event itself...and very little follow up research is being conducted on the long term effects of drugs and surgery American Birth on American Families, including drug addictions, postpartum depression, inability to breastfeed, and bonding disorders.

When Obstetricians ban the use of Cytotec and get the induction rates down to a reasonable level, use the brewer pregnancy diet as the foundation for healthy pregnancy, get the section rates down to a reasonable 10% and ease up the laws against lay midwifery, then I will believe that it has found its soul. Until then? I'm claiming my rights of self determination over my own body and staying home!

During my last freebirth, after doing my own prenatals, two colorado laws kicked in, that should I have chosen to have a midwife attended homebirth, would have precluded me having the peak experience of a successful home birth.

First Law: No midwife is allowed to attend a woman who has gone past 42 weeks at home. Ben was born 42 weeks and 3 days.

Second Law: Midwives must transfer care to an OB if the mothers membranes have been ruptured for more than 24 hours. My water broke three days before Ben was born.

It was almost as if Ben was laughing at those Colorado laws, saying....you can't get me with your stupid rules.

He was born on the very day he was ready to be born, in the quiet and sanctity of our bedroom, surrounded by love and his family.


I predict that as we get more socialized in America birth is going to continue to be a dangerous and deadly event for women and babies. Watch the stats over the next ten years.

I shared the information on ecstatic and sexual birth simply because you are a group that claims an interest in evolution of sexuality and philosopy.

It will be a cold day in hell when a woman experiences total sexual fullfillment during a C-section.

How baby is born has a profound effect on how that child is mothered. And if during the early weeks after the birth mother is recovering from her knife in the belly rather than riding the ecstatic wave of sexual birth, which some women have described as renewing them not only sexually, but also emotionally, spiritually, and physically (and I have felt this renewal), this will also have a NEGATIVE impact on how that mother relates to her child.

You don't have to be a scientist to know that a mother who experiences hormonal ecstasy during birth juxtiposed with a mother who is numbed with belly pain will have amazingly different reactions and connections in her memories of the event.

How many people reading this thread know women who have claimed to their dying day that giving birth was bar none the worst experience of their lives?

My paternal grandmother was one of these women. She had typical thirties hospital birth - knocked out, lots of drugs, huge episiotomy, and forceps to pull out her nine pound sons.

How do you think that impacter her marriage? Her children? Her views of herself as a woman? Her overall sense of feeling at peace with the universe?

I have met many woman who have described birth in those terms.

Yet I get together with a bunch of freebirthers, and the happiness and joy is coming off of them AND THEIR CHILDREN, in waves. Bright eyes, loving and tender nurture at the breast, and an overall feeling of peace in the room.

These are the intangibles of Freebirth. They are not going to show up in a study. They are not going to turn up in some dissertation or professional paper on the so called FACTS of birth. They are not even considered in the equation. But I can testify, THEY ARE IMPORTANT.

And it is in educating women about these intangibles and the very simple and basic facts of natural birth that I find profound satisfaction and joy as a child birth teacher.

What keeps me motivated is the birth stories, the pictures, the videos, the joy, and the absolute KNOWING I have that families are being strengthened and renewed by freebirth.

Does this mean that all mothers will give birth perfectly with perfect outcomes every time? Nope. Some will need professional help, and some will even die. It is going to take several generations before we get to fulfilling that prophecy I mentioned by the prophet Isaiah where he said we would get to the place in our society where "no more would there be an infant of days and man would live to the age of a tree".

To say that reality is all tied up in Medical Birth and Chemical living as practiced right now today in America is just a farce and a delusion of what is real and what is possible.

I want to thank all of you for a stimulating and invigorating discussion. I think it's time for me to go.

All of my work on the internet, including chats like this, are dedicated to the babies who will be born in the future. May they all enjoy a peaceful and gentle entry into the world.

Jenny Hatch

TotalMILF

Oh, thank GOD.

highthief

The one thing this has done for me is to convince me to make a web page.

Unfortunately, many young women, seeing that the first few pages on Google when you type in "freebirthing", are essentially all pages created by rather devoted advocates of this practice and are all obviously in favour of the practice without considering much of the science (or God-given common sense, but that's another issue).

What is needed is the "con" side of the argument to appear on the first couple of Google pages to offer a more balanced and objective perspective.

It should be pointed out, as I think this gets lost in the shuffle sometimes, that most people are not opposed to home delivery - but with a doctor, nurse or highly trained and licensed midwife in attendance. My own POV is that deliberatelty "going it alone", whoever you are, whatever your background, is inherently selfish and ill-considered, an attempt to find meaning in an otherwise meaningless existence.

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

ShaniFaye

Amen highthief!!! Well said. Fortunately I have a brain and can think for myself (and I've given birth) so most of the "stuff" thats been posted here by Jenny is going in one ear and out the other. Its the women that are easily brainwashed that I'm worried about.

I cannot, just cannot read this crap knowing how many of us have refuted the crap that has been spread here.

Asking for people to look to their genealogy and then discounting it when we DID? I spent time to gather facts from a rural georgia county that was not "industrialized" or a "big city"...and when my fact dont compliement what you've claimed, you have to totally ignore it (and then misstate what I said)

I really really really feel for women taken in by this and I can only pray that no one loses a child or their life unnecessarily because "god told them giving birth was sexual pleasure" and that they don't need anyone with training at the birth

jesus christ this has been some of the most absurd stuff IMO that I've ever read.

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I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

ngdawg

She's said that before, though....

Maybe it affected YOUR mothering, it didn't affect mine.
The life-threatening dangers you put your son through for your own selfish reasons make me shudder. You gambled and that time, didn't lose.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

highthief

Yeah, doesn't the placenta or something start to break down at that point, leading to potential damage to the child, which is why women are typically induced if they go past 42 weeks? And that if the membranes break and there is no delivery within 24-48 hours, an increased risk of infection for the infant occurs?

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Redlemon

Just to take this statement a bit further (sorry to diverge from the medical discussion, folks), I have heard that this is the only rational reason for the existence of the G-spot.

Think about what it takes to stimulate the G-spot. You have to use fingers (or a toy), because you have to reach in, then hook back and apply pressure. How else could you achieve pressure on that spot? A baby's head is perfect.

Think about what happens during a G-spot orgasm. Huge muscular contractions and a large quantity of fluid release. Both of these would be very beneficial in birthing a child.

But, there's no reason that you couldn't achieve this with the right mindset and a midwife, or even an understanding doctor.

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I can't read your signature. Sorry.

Jenny Hatch

You are exactly right. Many doctors and midwives have reported women experiencing orgasm during natural birth. I first read about it in Robert Bradley's Husband Coached Childbirth.

Problem with epidural is that it numbs the woman and even if she is fortunate enough to experience this ecstasy during the birth of her child, she won't feel it. Episiotomy also can interfere with the birth climax.

And you are also right that the birth orgasm helps the child to be born. Thanks for sharing.


For the gals who talked about freebirth being all about the mother.

Does anyone here honestly believe that a mother who starts asking her doctor how many drugs she can have during labor soon after her first contraction has her childs best interest at heart?

Doesn't that qualify her as a selfish person, only concerned about her "experience"?


And highthief, I wish you well with your web site.

You are going to have some stiff competition from the freebirthers though. Unassisted Childbirth.com gets 70,000 unique visitors a month, with hundreds of thousands of hits. And with all of the recent media attention, Washington Post article comes out this month, reuters blasted all over the world last month, and Eve magazine in the UK comes out this month, I predict those numbers to double very quickly.

My own sites get pretty good traffic, and because of the way the internet works, those numbers grow exponentially every time a momma shares the good news with her email list. The most gratifying fact of my traffic is the thousands of people who use the "send to a friend" function on both my web site and blog. I feel so much joy thinking of the shifts that are occuring in the minds of parents all over the world as they read this empowering and enlightening information, and then take the leap of faith and actually give birth alone.

But you go for it. It's obvious you have some real passion, you are an articulate spokesperson for the indefensible practice of allopathic birth, and really believe you have the "facts" on your side. You share those facts! And at the end of the year when your site has fizzled out from the five people who have visited it and the freebirth sites have 2 million unique visitors a month, and then 5 million, and so on and so on....just remember this little chat.

I would encourage you to save your time and money and do something productive with your life. You know, give birth to a child or mentor a teen, or raise a puppy, grow a garden, or sing in a choir. And let those gentle activities free your mind from the shackles of science and the tortured world of obstetrics.

Just a little bit of friendly advice!

And now, Adieu.....

Jenny Hatch

Cynthetiq

First you say Industrial age information doesn't count:
then you now discount more current statisticis:
It is OBVIOUS that you don't understand how and what infant mortality means since it doesn't NEED to include or disclude it. The statistics themselves should be agnostic to those conditions. The data collected is just data. It is up to the person reviewing the data to look at the information provided and then ask the crucial and critical questions that then explain the data. If you don't want to look at the 90's look at the 70's and 80's and compare those to the 50's and 60's. Again, if your cytotec fears had any bearing to the data, there would be some data trend going upwards. But anyone with eyeballs can see in the data I have posted, that the trends go downward.

Looking at the scope of the infant mortality rates (IMR) it is apparent that there is some relationship between prenatal medical care and continued care since they track from birth to age 5.

You narrow the scope, widen the scope, adjust the findings to determine and rationalize your position. Again, it is your choice. It is ulitmately your choice, but it is also your responsibility.

Again, that is YOUR responsibility. Because your doctor didn't, and YOU didn't bother to inquire, then it is the doctor's fault, that is patently absurd.

Yes it does. Just like those who want to have a scheduled c-section since they want to control the date and time of the birthing. It speaks to some degree to the character of the individual.

__________________
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Dilbert1234567

i'm glad my mom is not that nutty... she's into the hole 'back to nature organic thing' but when it comes to real medical things, she goes to the doc.

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Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

Dilbert1234567

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Donate Blood!

"Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

highthief

First off, I'm a father, so how I might manage to give birth to a child, I'm not quite sure - perhaps if I don't go see a doctor then I'll be able to miraculously give birth! Perhaps fatherhood is another thing you aren't in favour of?

But what I do know is that I'm honest - you keep saying you're "done" and "finished here" yet keep coming back. Is going back on your word part of this freebirthing nonsense too?

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Si vis pacem parabellum.

Cynthetiq

As I read your Natural Family website I encountered you adding some credentials to your name PhD MH, so I double checked as I recalled you didn't have any completed undergraduate, graduate, or postgraduate work.

From Jenny's Dissertation on Motherhood
After reading the above I have a hard time taking you seriously as being "educated" in the classic sense and definition. Perhaps it is as hyperbole as your "murder" definition.

Furthermore, after thoroughly reading your website and other freebirthing websites, I stand in awe. Had it just been as simple as, "This is my choice for my body and my baby" without the rhetoric of Big Pharma and Doctors more intertested in playing golf, I think your movement would have had more support from those that don't understand nor subscribe to your viewpoints. To selectively expound on why the current medical industry with respect to birthing is flawed, and then not to wholly reject the whole system seems hypocritical.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

Sticky

Here is the study that the Guardian article mentioned was covered in the New Scientist.
(I added color to highlight specifics)

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/en...&dopt=Abstract

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Sticky The Stickman

xepherys

I really can't believe this thread is still going. I guess some people like to believe their opinion is better proof than cold hard facts. Looking at post #142, It interests me that Afghanistan is #2 on the list. You see... I'm there now. Our unit does a lot of MEDCAP missions (medical relief). I've heard from people about the loss of newborn brothers, sisters, sons and daughters a LOT in the three months I've been here. Oddly enough, there is no medical care or facilities here. Women ALWAYS (outside of maybe Kabul) give birth at home, usually with the aid of a female relative. Must be a great program to have the second highest infant mortality rate IN THE WORLD. What numbers can possibly convince an intelligent, thinking human being that your opinion otherwise is rational? It seems like a great disillusion to me.

__________________
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My Homepage

Jenny Hatch

I said I THOUGHT I was finished with this thread, especially since it is obvious you are more interested in talking about medical statistics related to babies who die during the first year of life rather than freebirth and wether or not we are "nuts". As the original poster, you said:


"Am I missing something or is this concept really defensible?"

I have been trying to explain to you the various different reasons that families get in to Freebirth.

Sorry for thinking you were female, it is difficult to determine who is male and female in this forum.


Jenny


We accept the fact that some women will need c-sections. And are even grateful for the times when women really do get the true help they need during birth. I don't reject the whole system, I just reject the way that technology is god in birth.

You forgot to include the KICKER in my introduction to my dissertation.... in that portion you cut and pasted....and it is this:

What do those little letters mean?

Jenny Marie Hatch PhD MH

To get to my Dissertation simply click on this link below. This file is stored on my blog with pictures and video enhancement.



I have had mothers tell me that my Doctor in the philosophy of Motherhood line was a milk snort through the nose moment for them. Spill coffee on the keyboard, choke on breakfast laughing so loud.

It was meant to be humorous, and taken out of the humor context it does look a little silly.

Choosing to be a stay at home mother does tend to bring some condemnation from various circles in our society, and living in the one county in America that has more PhD's than any other place in the world, (Boulder County) the ivory tower is quite high and inpenetrable to those of us who have little more than a high school degree.

Whatever, I know what I am about. And now I believe we are really getting off topic talking so much about me and my sites.

Jenny Hatch

telekinetic

I don't mean to be insulting, but do you understand what perinatal means? If so, how can you insist that the perinatal statistics provided by Cynthetiq are irrelevant in judging the safety of birth? He isn't just supplying infant mortality rates, look more closely at the charts supplied.

At what point in an unsupervised unaccompanied birth attempt by an inexperienced mother trying to listen to her body do you think she would be able to determine "this isn't working, i need immediate medical attention or a c-section?" I am baffled by the logic you claim to follow.

Something you learn in higher education is that if the evidence is contrary to everything you have thus far learned, question the source. The word 'educated' means something very specific, and I find it offensive that elsewhere you have claimed that you belong to a, quote, "very educated and proactive group of mothers." This directly contradicts your statement that you have little more than a high school diploma (not a "high school degree," incidently).

Let me be very clear: I am not insulting your intelligence. You can be smart (very smart, in fact) without being educated, but you cannot be considered 'very educated' without having undergone (and completed) some sort of higher education.

I find it quite offensive that you would refer to yourself as a PhD in a deceptive manner. Claiming that you use it for anything other than to bolster yourself, and give weight to your opinion, is, in my opinion, merely creating some plausible deniability.

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twisted no more

ngdawg

In looking up prolonged gestations(over 41 weeks), I found some interesting tidbits:
There is a general increase in death rates, partially due to some prolonged pregnancies being the result of malformations. Rates are considered small, about 6 in 1,000.
There is an increased chance of the baby inhaling meconium(its first bowel movement) or passing it into the amniotic fluids. This can lead to death.
Uteral-placental circulation should be tested.
The baby starts to lose weight and body fat.
When your water breaks:
If the amniotic fluid is ruptured for more than 24 hours your risk of developing a uterine infection increases dramatically.

Several things about freebirth really bother me, specially if it's decided that neither a doctor or midwife will be part of the process:
1) Breech.
2) Multiple pregnancy(it can be that you wouldn't know you're carrying more than one-happened to my grandmother and, I'm sure, many women before the advent of prenatal testings.)
3) Large baby.
4) Malformations/congenital defects
5) Nutritional deficiencies
6) Miscalculations of time
7) Self-diagnosing

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

lurkette

Forgive me, but I think this thread might merit it:

http://internetarguing.ytmnd.com/

__________________
"If ten million people believe a foolish thing, it is still a foolish thing."

- Anatole France

Cynthetiq

Out of context is a fair statement, if again you were using it tongue in cheek. But again, you misrepresent your knowledge and credibilty by adding those designators education earned and bestowed by accredited colleges and universities. I am of the opinion that when reading something that deals with medicine and biology, designators of higher education are important factors in author credibility. There is no "kicker" to explain your choice here.

I don't see where I can purchase your books, either by small press, brick and mortar or internet sales only. I can only find electronic versions, which I assume are the only incarnation that exists as far as I can tell. Books are very specific as to what that means, and I must again state that you are stretching definitions to beyond hyperbole. I do hope that one day you can find a publisher who will actually print your manuscript. It can then be properly scrutinized and subject to peer review.

__________________
I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not.

abaya

Your self-designated PhD is not amusing, in any context, to those of us who have actually put in the time and coursework towards getting a bona fide PhD. Since graduating from high school, I have spent the last 10 years in higher education (with several more to go), and I'm not about to put up with someone who jokingly adds a PhD "MH" after her name on a public website. I don't care if you were trying to be funny; that is just total horseshit.

__________________
And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

Jinn

Seconded.

Kills your credibility.

Shows that you really AREN'T educated, so you want to pretend to be.

You're like those people who drive around in sold-at-auction police cars pretending to be a cop. Then, when someone calls you out on your bullshit, you reply with "oh, I do it to mock police officers" or other lame-brained excuse.

If you EVER hope to convince someone with MORE than half a brain, DONT PRETEND TO HAVE CREDENTIALS YOU DON'T HAVE.

Please discontinue breeding.

__________________
"I'm typing on a computer of science, which is being sent by science wires to a little science server where you can access it. I'm not typing on a computer of philosophy or religion or whatever other thing you think can be used to understand the universe because they're a poor substitute in the role of understanding the universe which exists independent from ourselves." - Willravel

Plan9

(reads thread) ... (shivers)

I'm sticking to housecats.

Humans are just all bad.

__________________
Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

analog

Yeah. It's really insulting to even jokingly self-apply a "PhD". People spend 8 - 10 years studying intensely to earn their doctorates and hone their basic skills. You have no formal education in the birthing process. Experience, and reading birthing books, do not count. I don't even get the impression that you have CPR training- [PSA]which, by the way, I recommend everyone take. It's extremely simple: it's a quick, single class but it's invaluable in case of emergency... either cardiac, or in the case of choking/airway obstruction. (PM me if you need help finding a CPR trainer in your area)[/Public Service Announcement]

The fact of the matter is, modern medicine is why neonate deaths are so low (as compared to the entirety of recorded past, and in current third-world countries). Your individual personal experience matters fuckall in the grand scheme of things. Just because you, Madame Consumer, didn't get perfect nutritional and/or prenatal care, and weren't informed that you can ALWAYS specify the level of your medical care as it pertains to medical intervention (up to where the fetus' life is in peril, meaning that you can specify that you do not get a c-section unless absolutely necessary) doesn't mean that your anti-medical-establishment rants are justified. It means your personal experience sucked ass, and you believe that it's a systemic issue rather than a specific one.

Medicaid pays for prenatal care. People with no insurance and no money in general get professional medical prenatal care and nutritional advice. This availability helps to stem trends in populations of low economic status such as premature birth, low birth weight, and complications due to malnutrition/drug habits (including alcohol and tobacco) of the mother. People with no money and/or less education have access to appropriate medical care that will help to ensure the birth of a healthy baby.

Myself personally, as someone who does have formal education in the birth process, I'm shocked and dismayed that you actively profess that modern medicine is useless and out to kill your baby. It's just asinine. Reading birthing books is all well and good. Having enough babies to qualify your vagina as a human clown car is not education. It's experience.

Your experience is meaningless when compared to formal medical education- you insist otherwise, and that's frankly insulting.

You hold no formal training in nutrition in general, prenatal nutrition and care, or the ability to diagnose any medical condition, but proclaim infallible superior knowledge without any substantiative information, let alone proof.

A consortium of midwives hell-bent on home birth? Well excuse me, but with all due respect to midwives, midwives' collective opinions on the care of pregnant women are meaningless when they buck against all established medical knowledge as practiced by doctors and without any research or data to substantiate their very contrary claims. When you're trying to effect change on a medical standard of care, you need to have lots of research and hard data to prove the benefit of changing. I have seen nothing that even glances in the direction of "research" or "data".

I hate to throw it around in this way, but in my professional opinion as a person with formal education in the field which is under discussion, which gives me credible authority to make the following statement against your debate, I have the following to say regarding your overall position:

Shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh................

warrrreagl

*closes eyes and chants*

"There's no such thing as batshit crazy. There's no such thing as batshit crazy. There's no such thing as batshit crazy. There's no such ......"

__________________
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ngdawg

This screams bumpersticker!

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Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

analog

I can't take full credit... I saw the picture below a long time ago and it was the inspiration for my continued use of the phrase:

(Pic is SFW but contains kids, so I'm not embedding it)
Vagina: It's not a clown car.

Jenny Hatch

"We consider this site to be the best of its kind. Nowhere else on the internet will you find a better assemblage of discussion, knowledge and intrigue. Feel free to browse around to get a feel for the site and see for yourself. We hope that you'll enjoy what you see and want to register and join in the fun.

If you've ever wanted a place to discuss sensitive topics with mature people, and get quality feedback on your thoughts and ideas, look no further. That's what the TFP is all about. This community was founded in 2002 on the statute of mature discourse and the tradition lives on strongly today.

At the TFP, you don't have to worry about immature flaming"



Ha ha ha ha snort, hee hee, heh, heh, ha ha ha

Jenny

ShaniFaye

you must really not frequent many message boards if you are under the impression you have endured immature flaming here.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

tecoyah

Jenny, while I and many others here understand your enthusiasm for your chosen lifestyle, one cannot expect to be protected from criticism simply because we wish it to be so. Your charges of immaturity should be tempered with the acceptance that you are not in a majority when it comes to such adamant belief in freebirthing, Hell I have been alone with my wife for two births and quite frankly would walk out of the room after you talked for 10 minutes.
While you likely took that as an immature comment as well, it was not....it was honesty. Rather than communicating your beliefs in this thread, you have done little but preach them, and few adults wish to be preached to. If you actually want people to listen to your message I would recommend a more subtle approach....as it is you come off somewhat fanatic and do more damage to your cause than good.

ngdawg

Whether you've noticed or not (and I'm betting on not), this entire discussion has been populated by mods, past and present and not once were any warnings issued or edits made.
Tec made an astute observation-that all your posts were preaching. Few, if any, questions were answered; instead, we were entertained with such 'facts' as orgasmic birth and subjected to outrageous claims of some mass OB/GYN conspiracy.... I would also go so far as to say that by offending anyone who actually does earn their PhD by 'jokingly' attaching one to yourself, you've killed any possibility of having your position respected as one of esteem.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.