The_Dude

i dont think hinduism really talks much about this. (or prolly i never looked into it)

anyway, i was raised in an atmosphere where abortion was treated as a contraceptive and society didnt look down that much.

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svt

You don't know that. You wouldn't have any idea seeing as how you didn't have the child. I know a few people who were adopted and they have had great lives. They grew up in great families. More often than not women love their children very much, so much infact that they give them up to provide a better life for them. That's true love. How often do you hear about kids being adopted and then the parents beating them? Not often, I know I never have. Not to long ago on MTV there was this show called "True Life" and this one particular episode dealt with adoption. Anyways, the woman who was giving the baby up for adoption planned in advance, found a loving family and on the day she gave birth she was sad because she was letting go of something she loved so much. I've never heard of a woman having a baby and saying "I hate you, I don't love you". Also, the whole vegetarianism thing was way off, so I won't comment further.

Killconey

Alright, I think I've got it. Abortion should be legal because morality shouldn't be legislated. Sweet!

Hey, I've got an idea! Why don't I go out and knock a girl up just for the hell of it? After all, rape is my moral decision and moral decisions shouldn't be legislated. And why on earth did we stop Hitler from ridding the world of all of those God-forsaken Jews? It as his decision as the leader of his nation and the United States shouldn't have interfered with that. Hey, while we're at it why don't we put all of those fucking niggers back to work where they belong? They're not even human, so its not like they should be allowed to do anything else. Its my moral, God-given right to own property and that's what niggers are.

Come to think about it, why the hell are all of these bitches complaining about how its their choice to have an abortion? Woman, return to the kitchen that spawned you and don't leave until its time to bear me another child! Its my moral right as a man to be the master of this house and I don't need any backtalk!

If you were offended by anything I said in those past paragraphs, perhaps you should consider that for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. Actions often cause harm and it is the purpose of society to monitor those actions.

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Mojo_PeiPei

Good Point Killconey. One of Pro-choicer's/pro-abortion biggest arguements is on the notion that the "fetus" isn't human. Hmmm that sounds familiar. Does the 3/5's act ring a bell? Black people weren't human. Jews weren't humans, however Hitler only got 6 million of them, you barbarians managed to get 40+ million.

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Lebell

Mojo_PeiPei,

Who are you calling "barbarians"?

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Mojo_PeiPei

The people that are for the slaughtering of unborn children.

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Otaku

please define human for me Mojo_PeiPei.

most people say genetics.

however, chimps have 98% of the same genes as us. Does that make them 98% human?

people with Downs syndrome have one extra chromosome. 1/26 is approx equal to 4% difference from human..

does that make people with down syndrome any less human than a chimp??

MacGnG

Mammals are +85% genetically similar to humans.

a human fetus is of course human, whether it is alive or not is the difficult question and what the abortion discussion is mostly about.

how do you define when life starts and a good reason WHY?

Killconey

Well, in order to determine when death happens a doctor looks for a heartbeat and brainwave activity. Both of these occur often before the woman even knows she's pregnant, so technically the baby would be alive before she even knew it was there.

As far as Otaku goes, that is a damn good argument! No to disputing it: the difference between chimps and humans is greater than simple genetics and has to do more with the fact that we are of two different species. People with Down Syndrome, while perhaps genetically different, are still homo sapien.

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svt

MacnG: Easy, the human fetus is living, if it wasn't it wouldn't grow. Ask yourself this: When was the last time you saw a dead thing grow? Do you ever see dead chicken in the store grow? No, of course not because they aren't living. And that's why abortion is murder, the human fetus is living. You are living until the day you die.

RatherThanWords

on a personal sidenote, I would love to take some of what Killconey said and quote it completely out of context.

MacGnG

svt, ok.

so how do you define when life starts and a good reason WHY?

svt

Mac: When the egg and sperm become one to form a zygote.

MacGnG

wow great reason why.

Vyxen

Ok, couldn't resist replying to this debate. First off, I wouldn't want to be born if I was going to have a miserable life of suffering.. or knowing one of my parents was a rapist, or violently abusive, neglegent etc. (just my opinion.. although I've had this discussion with friends and dont know anyone who would disagree yet)

With much, much thought on this issue... I don't think the answer is as simple is one OR the other only. It's not black or white.. but shades of grey. Each circumstance is different and not one solution is always the best for each one. (For a lot of issues, I'd say)

Anyway, If I have to choose one label or the other for this debate, I'd say I am pro choice. I just don't think it should be used as a form of birthcontrol instead of condoms, pill, etc. (I know a couple women who have used abortion that way a multiple times. I definately think those were unwise and irresponsible decisions).

However, I would like to add, pregnancy *prevention* information wasn't nearly as easy to obtain until recently (even today , there can be difficulty aquiring that information or the products for some folks).. so I can understand why there have been such great numbers of abortions. (Not saying that is a justification) I do believe that number will decrease respectively as more prevention information becomes readily available, which I can't fathom ever being a bad thing. (whew, beyond time for zzzz, hope this post made sense)

svt

The baby wouldn't have to know this until he or she had developed in to an adult. Even if you told the story of conception at an early age he or she wouldn't understand. Again, the baby is an unfortunate product of such a terrible crime, they had no say in the matter. Humans are a product of their environment, that is to say that if a baby that was a product of rape and was born into this world they could be a great person. They're a plenty of couples willing to adopt that could help raise that child. I can't believe you wouldn't want to live just because someone you don't even know committed a crime. If I was the child, I think I would of had a more of a hard time with the fact that my mother wanted to have me killed rather than giving me the chance to be someone.

MacGnG

true! knowledge is the most important and effective form of birth control, unfortunately, many people dont have it.

Killconey

On a sidenote, I've gotten in great trouble for giving that speech before in any context. Its fun and you all should try it whether you actually oppose abortion or not!

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Darkblack

This thread is fucked. I can't even read the entire thing. BBtB you sir have issues. It is not ok for a woman who does not want to go through the hell that is child labor but it is ok for you to kill her for it? An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.

Let me see if I get this right.... Birth control is bad to Christians because you are preventing the birth of god’s children. Christians frequent poor neighborhoods spreading the good word knowing that many of them will follow you blindly to salvation. Now not using birth control they have 5 kids but you conservatives (who are mostly Christian) think she should not have kids if she cannot afford them and should not get assistance from the government because that would be your tax dollars. She also should not have an abortion because that would be killing one of god’s children. So should she give up the children for adoption so your tax money can pay more to foster parents than they do to the welfare mothers?


For those of you that think a man should have equal say in this matter. I will agree to this once you carry a child around in your womb for 9 months. Once you have done that you have a right to equal choice. Maybe get raped by your father at 13 and pregnant with your son/brother. Or go running in the park and get raped only to carry the son of the bastard that violated you. Better yet, your wife gets pregnant with your child, and dies on the operating table along with the child because they needed to remove the unborn baby to save her.

Darkblack

She gets more of a choice becuase it is HER BODY@! What part of that do you not get? She is the one that will go through it, not YOU!


And about the laziness part. Why are you banging a lazy woman unprotected? Maybe it was your laziness that got her knocked up in the first place. Maybe she should remove your balls for it. How does that sound?

sportsrule101

I don't understand why anyone would want to kill a defenseless baby. Isn't all human life precious? How can any of us possibly think we possess the wisdom to dictate who should live and who should die? Do any of you honestly think that you can determine when life begins, when it has it's own unique value, and when it should end? The gods look down on us and weep, for the things we do out of our own hate and selfishness, just so we can do without some inconvenience!! We are so haughty, cruel, and ignorant!! As soon as we put a price on anyones life, ANY life can be bought!

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Darkblack
Most conservatives have no issue with birthcontrol. The fraction that are against it, is small, and those who don't use it and are making you not use it are nonexistant. That being said, there should never be a price but on a humans life by anybody espicially the goverment. Also most conservatives have no problem with supporting single mothers, even through welfare. The part I have the most problem with is the % of individuals who are abusing the flawed system to a point where it is costing individuals more then just money.

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Darkblack

So do you support welfare? Are you a defender of public housing for anyone who cannot afford it? How about war? Does the acts of others justify death? Death penalty?

I am sorry. No one can force me to do something against my will. I will not allow it. Some things I do even when I don't want to, but it is my choice. IF I was a woman, NO one should have the right to force me to give birth. NO ONE. You are forcing your will onto someone else and that SHOULD NOT be allowed. IF you believe in god or Jesus or what ever and feel that this is a sin, then let him deal with it after death. NOT YOU!

sportsrule101

I think welfare has been has been corrupted, and needs an overhauling. I support temporary housing and last chance houses, with programs for individuals who are stuck in a tough place. Yes certain acts deserve death, but babies have done nothing wrong, and deserve a chance to grow and succede in life.

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warrrreagl

In what may be the biggest cop-out on the whole poll, I voted "Not Sure," simply because I've never been pregnant. If I were a woman and if I had been pregnant, then I would be able to have a better opinion.

Along the same lines, I don't have much respect for people who declare that if they served on a jury they would easily give someone the death penalty. Unless you've been there, you don't know what you'll do.

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Lebell

I'm sorry to tell you that insurance companies have already decided your life is worth between $200,000 and $400,000.

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svt

Not all. By the way,lets leave religion out. This is a morality issue.

This statement is totally false and made in ignorance. You are classifying Chrisitians as /conservative/repulicans when infact a majority of Christians consider themselves democrats(especially catholics). And just to let you know, often times those women who are poor and come from the ghetto have kids PURPOSELY to get more welfare, not because she didn't use a condom or because she didn't have an abortion. Unfortunately it's very hard for those who come from the ghetto to get out, which means most stay their a majority of their lives, having children happens in all neighborhoods, it just happens to be a hell of a lot tougher when you are brought up in the ghetto.

Nobody knows biologically when life begins and that's why abortions at all levels are wrong. Since a baby is usually the outcome from the sperm meeting the egg Christians say that's when life begins. People who are advocates of abortion say first and second trimester abortions are cool, however, third trimester abortions aren't. Why is this? Let me ask you this, what is the difference between a baby the day its born and the day before its born?.. Nothing. So with this logic, it would be ok for the mother to kill her child between the ages of 1 and 3 but at the age of 4 it's illegal. That's crap. Humans are always growing, always, until the day you die. The logic behind "well the baby hasn't fully grown and therefore it's life can be terminated" is utter stupidity. Even you are still growing/developing. Would it be ok for me to terminate you? I guess it should be legal to terminate women before menopause, after all they aren't fully grown.



Again, this is false. Foster parents pay TONS of money to adopt children. Not Tax money. State system do use tax money but a majority of those kids are there who's parents neglected them or because all their family is dead or their parents went to jail. Adoption can be an expensive process depending on how you go about it, especially if the child is adopted from overseas.


I'm sorry, it still takes a man to conceive. Unless the woman is asexual a man should have part of the choice, after all it is half his biologically . Women know that they carry the baby should they become pregnant, if they don't want a kid, do what it takes not to have one.




We all know rape is an infinetly horrible thing. Nobody is arguing this point. Women can have c-sections to get the baby out rather than go through labor, its quicker and easier. If shes under sedation she won't even see the baby. The child in a rape case is an unfortunate outcome,however don't take its life, it didnt ask to be brought into the world. It deserves the right to life. Rather than taking life we can give it, giving the child a chance to become somebody, not just another abortion statistic. If the mother is going to die giving birth than have an operation to remove the child but still try to sustain its life. This is the worst case scenario. If the doctors know a woman can't go through labor they won't make her, she'll have a simple procedure to remove the child through c-section.

Darkblack

Religion plays a key roll in why you think it is moral or not.

Quote:

This statement is totally false and made in ignorance. You are classifying Chrisitians as /conservative/repulicans when infact a majority of Christians consider themselves democrats(especially catholics). And just to let you know, often times those women who are poor and come from the ghetto have kids PURPOSELY to get more welfare, not because she didn't use a condom or because she didn't have an abortion. Unfortunately it's very hard for those who come from the ghetto to get out, which means most stay their a majority of their lives, having children happens in all neighborhoods, it just happens to be a hell of a lot tougher when you are brought up in the ghetto.

Please show me a statistic on this to prove my ignorance. I live in a highly Christian area and they are all right wing republican conservatives. I call bullshit. I also was brought up in what you would consider the hood. Women do not have kids to stay on welfare. That is the stupidest most bigoted thing I have heard in a long time. You think they like not having enough money to feed their kids? Do you really think welfare pays enough to make it worth it? HELL NO it doesn't! Take that silver spoon out of your mouth and go introduce yourself to some "ghetto" people and then make your remarks. You may find that they are not trying to get over on the system like you think they are.

Quote:

Nobody knows biologically when life begins and that's why abortions at all levels are wrong. Since a baby is usually the outcome from the sperm meeting the egg Christians say that's when life begins. People who are advocates of abortion say first and second trimester abortions are cool, however, third trimester abortions aren't. Why is this? Let me ask you this, what is the difference between a baby the day its born and the day before its born?.. Nothing. So with this logic, it would be ok for the mother to kill her child between the ages of 1 and 3 but at the age of 4 it's illegal. That's crap. Humans are always growing, always, until the day you die. The logic behind "well the baby hasn't fully grown and therefore it's life can be terminated" is utter stupidity. Even you are still growing/developing. Would it be ok for me to terminate you? I guess it should be legal to terminate women before menopause, after all they aren't fully grown.

I am not dependent on my mother’s womb anymore so no; it would not be ok to terminate me. Your logic is flawed and not worth a response other than this.

Quote:

Again, this is false. Foster parents pay TONS of money to adopt children. Not Tax money. State system do use tax money but a majority of those kids are there whose parents neglected them or because all their family is dead or their parents went to jail. Adoption can be an expensive process depending on how you go about it, especially if the child is adopted from overseas.

Foster parents pay nothing for foster kids. They are paid for foster kids, which is why they do it. Most of the time the home is crappy and full of kids with little supervision. Which is why most kids are ported from foster home to foster home. I think you are thinking of adoption. With the adoption laws the way they are now adoption rate is low. If we had an increase in babies up for adoption we would have an increase in kids in government run homes and foster families, which indeed get paid more than the mother on welfare.

Quote:

I'm sorry, it still takes a man to conceive. Unless the woman is asexual a man should have part of the choice, after all it is half his biologically . Women know that they carry the baby should they become pregnant, if they don't want a kid, do what it takes not to have one.

Yeah, the man sticks in his penis. Woot way to contribute! While she carries around the extra wait and goes through the pain. Maybe men should have their nuts cut off if they get a woman pregnant and she doesn't want to be. Since she has to go through the labor you get to lose your sack.

Quote:

We all know rape is an infinetly horrible thing. Nobody is arguing this point. Women can have c-sections to get the baby out rather than go through labor, its quicker and easier. If shes under sedation she won't even see the baby. The child in a rape case is an unfortunate outcome,however don't take its life, it didnt ask to be brought into the world. It deserves the right to life. Rather than taking life we can give it, giving the child a chance to become somebody, not just another abortion statistic. If the mother is going to die giving birth than have an operation to remove the child but still try to sustain its life. This is the worst case scenario. If the doctors know a woman can't go through labor they won't make her, she'll have a simple procedure to remove the child through c-section.

Oh yeah c-sections are the answer! Please. Let me slice your stomach open. Let me give you a piece of advice. Women are not your property. They are not meat and not something you can just slice up or force birth on. Maybe in your next life you can be a "ghetto" mom with 10 kids so you can see what the other side is like.

sportsrule101

Why would you have 10 kids, you didn't get raped that many times. You choose to have that many, if you can't find a way to support you and the kids, then put them up for adoption before they are born. Anything is better than murdering them just because they are not wanted. Its not there fault there not wanted. Don't tell me your not glad your parents decided to have a child rather then have it killed.

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Darkblack

My mother wanted me. That is the difference.


Put it up for adoption!!! is that your only answer? IT is not that easy. You think every child sent to adoption gets adopted? Do you think that if every child that was aborted was put up for adoption they would all be adopted by loving parents?
Come on.

sportsrule101

Yes the adoption process is not perfect, but atleast the kid when he gets older will be able to make a decision of what he wants to do with his life. Instead of it being decided for him when he was born.

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Killconey

Man Darkblack. For a guy who whined about how the forum was too complex for him to understand, you certainly seem to have a lot to say ;-).

Now to disputing your bullshit. You claimed that you want statistics proving once and for all that all Christians are not conservative. I want to know where your statistic is that states that everything you have seen in your hometown is the way it is in the rest of the world. Have you ever considered that those living in your town might claim to be Christians while in fact not live in accordance with that claim? Have you considered that most Americans will claim to be Christian even though they have nothing to do with that religion? Wouldn't that make most Americans Republicans? I do agree with you that religion has a great deal to do with our view on morality, but your stereotyping is ridiculous.

Now I have a question for you. Why is it that the baby is a part of the woman's body? It has a completely different genetic code and can survive after being seperated. Can you say the same for a woman's arms or legs or hair? By this logic, a siamese twin should be able to kill his/her sibling because they share a body.

On a sidenote, could all women posting please mention that they are women. I'm curious as to how many people using the argument, "You don't know what its like to be a woman!" actually know what its like to be a woman.

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papermachesatan

Up until the third trimester, medically, all a baby is a clump of flesh. It doesn't think, it doesn't feel, it doesn't demonstrate any characteristics we associate with a living, thinking human being.

To assume that life begins before the brain develops requires a philosophical or religious perspective. Something that we're forbidden by the Constitution to force others to adhere to. Thus, whether abortion is okay or not is a purely up to the father/mother.

That said, I would never allow my potential son/daughter to be aborted. The potential that that clump of flesh has to become is enough for me to at least give it a chance to live.

I'm, politically, pro-choice but personally pro-life.

Darkblack

Where did I whine about the forum being too complex?

Maybe you have mistaken me for someone else. I have yet to find anything in life "too complex" to discuss.

Darkblack

link
http://www.religioustolerance.org/chr_prac2.htm

Mojo_PeiPei

Bottom line... Dating is for mating. Keep your pants on if you don't want a kid. Obviously sex feels good otherwise there would be no incentive to procreate.

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Darkblack

I agree with that Mojo.

svt

DarkBlack:

The stats on voter affiliation:religion was in a govt book I used last semester. It stated, many christians voted for democrats a majority. This is easily seen. IE(bill clinton, REV. jesse jackson,jfk(catholic),REV al sharpton, etc etc) just to name a few well known christian democrats. Statistics are changing my friend. It's also a well known fact that hispanics, many many of which are christian vote highly democrat.


Do you mean to tell me that you don't think that some women abuse the system? Open up your mind a bit, it DOES happen. I didn't say all women on welfare. You say later on "Maybe in your next life you can be a "ghetto" mom with 10 kids so you can see what the other side is like"

Let me ask you this, why do you think moms with 10 kids have 10 kids? Because she decided, I had 1 why not 9 more? As if being on welfare isn't hard enough. I'll go on to say there are more factors than welfare money that lead to large families in poor areas, but money certainly is an influence. I am an advocate for welfare, it just needs to be cleaned up, just like every other govt program. By the way, by no means was I born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I come from a large family where money was tight. Fortunately I grew up with loving parents who encouraged my education. I have alot of experience working with lesser fortunate people. I used to work at homeless shelters all the time. I realize how fortunate I am, I don't take my existance for granted.

My logic is not flawed. It's right on. You are always growing, the baby is independant of the mother. You were independant the day you were born, but yet your mother provided food and shelter for you, just like a mother who has a child in the womb. By the way, you didn't answer Killconey's questions. Are you saying foster parents only do it for the money? The money is just to help out. Do you think the states give thousands of dollars? I think not. Its going to be a small amount. Most do it out of love.

I think the others have answered on my behalf about how the man does have some say over his child. I will say this, you are partly right, a man should be responsible enough to get a vasectomy if he doesn't want kids. But it takes 2, therefore both parties are responsible.



C-sections are done painlessly all the time, everyday. I never said women were property, or my property for that matter. Putting words in my mouth doesn't help your argument. C-sections are better because the mother can be under anesthetics and not feel the baby being removed unlike an abortion. Its a very small incision and takes no time. Its the best way, the mother doesnt become attached, the baby lives and life goes on.






You are right, I did mean adoption. However, people who adopt provide many essential needs and could be considered foster parents. I know the foster system is also flawed and needs to be "cleaned up". But at least it gives kids a chance to be someone, not just another abortion stat.

MacGnG

yep

Darkblack

I already posted a link to answer this. Until you can do the same....

I am sure some do abuse the system but you stated that this is they only reason that they do it. I suggested your next life being a "ghetto" (the word that you used) mom with 10 kids so that you could see how you got those kids and realized that you were not abusing the system on purpose but because of lack of education and social programs to help you better your life.


[qoute]Let me ask you this, why do you think moms with 10 kids have 10 kids? Because she decided, I had 1 why not 9 more? As if being on welfare isn't hard enough. I'll go on to say there are more factors than welfare money that lead to large families in poor areas, but money certainly is an influence. I am an advocate for welfare, it just needs to be cleaned up, just like every other govt program. By the way, by no means was I born with a silver spoon in my mouth. I come from a large family where money was tight. Fortunately I grew up with loving parents who encouraged my education. I have alot of experience working with lesser fortunate people. I used to work at homeless shelters all the time. I realize how fortunate I am, I don't take my existance for granted.[/quote]

Mothers have 10 kids because of lack of education on issues such as birth control.
I agree welfare needs work but that is not the issue here.
I am glad you take time out to help out less fortunate. I do also and it makes us better people. Maybe you should try talking to them and getting to know them rather than looking down on them. Just a thought.

If you have a tumor in your body it is growing also. It is also a group of cells bunched together. I know there are a difference but not much at first.

As for Killconeys question I did answer it. Adoption and foster care are two different things. Foster care parents get a good amount for it. I know a foster family through a friend and trust me the get paid. I think it is around a thousand per month per child she is getting paid. Which is why she does it. She doesn't work she sits at home watching TV while the kids run wild. This is just one example. I agree that there are some that are loving people that want to help children. That is not what I was trying to say anyway. I was stating that the money that the government pays foster parents would be better spent for social education programs and welfare for the biological mothers. Now neither of you answered my question. What do you think would happen if every aborted child were put of for adoption?

I would like a doctor’s comment on this. I have not seen a c-section done since my little sister was born 25 years ago. At that time it was not such an easy get up and go thing. Even if it is a 20-minute process where the mom is eating bonbons while the doctor is cutting open her belly that is not the point. The point is the mother has to carry the child 9 1\2 months while the father watches football, hangs out with his boys, sleeps with his new girlfriend, says that’s not my baby, does all the things new fathers do these days while the mother is in hell. Wondering why her life got ruined. I don't think you are seeing my point so I will drop it.