Atheism's sudden rise
Seems like every week someone comes out and says he's an athiest. Another post here on TFP has an interview with Julia Sweeney in which she informs us that she too is an athiest. As few as 3 years ago, that would be a career ender unless your name was George Carlin.
That got me to wondering - how much of this athiesm movement is fueled by people genuinely sitting down, thinking it out, and coming to the conclusion that there is no god, and how much of it is just because it's a trendy thing to do? I recall 10 years or so ago when being bisexual was suddenly hip. Every couple of days some celebrity would get him/herself onto a TV show and tell the world they were bi. You don't really hear about bisexual celebs anymore. I'm sure it's a bit of both, but I'd be interested in knowing just how many of these newly-out-of-the-closet athiests are just hopping on the latest bandwagon. Your thoughts? |
My take on this has to do with a belief that we as humans are endlessly fascinated and preoccupied with ourselves. We have the mental ability to devise a myriad of intricate, orthodox philosophies as a means of expressing our inner thoughts and feelings. The more intricate and complete the thought - the more fullfilling and satisfying...like a long hard back massage or thunderous fart. We are driven to creating such theories, even at times perhaps more than, 1) is necessary, 2) is psychologically healthy and 3) is even possible. It is like fiddling around with a 5000-sided rubiks cube.
Atheism is one such topic that especially comes to play in people's minds, because it pertains to many intriguing and existential issues such as who or what is controlling my quest for self-knowledge, who is controlling my destiny, who is controlling my decision-making processes, who is controlling the machinery. I think there is a certain amount of trend and peer pressure and herd mentality to it especially at first, but if it remains a long-term issue its probably based on an honest journey of self-discovery although I can see how it sometimes comes off as bs. |
I am an atheist. It is due to study of various religions, anthropology, sociology, and history. I have put much thought into it. It is not because it is trendy. I don't believe that it is trendy as suggested. Atheists are viewed differently and not in a good way. It makes people uncomfortable. I don't advertise it to everyone because I realize it could have unwanted repurcussions.
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I think that a lot of people were (and still are) afraid of admitting their lack of belief in a god. Christians (and those of other religions) constantly insist that all morality and meaning in life comes from religion. And hence, anyone who is without religion must therefore be an utterly amoral nihilist. In fact even the word atheist has a kind of derogatory association with it (in The God Delusion, Richard Dawkins describes Juila Sweeney recalling in Letting Go Of God, that her mother could understand her not believing in God....but being an atheist....an atheist!?). Some atheists have even decided to create a euphemism for atheism ("Brights") though personally I find this somewhat misguided.
So there is a great fear of "coming out" and saying that you are an atheist. And doing so will often make you come up against a lot of ignorance, resentment and prejudice (and even outright hatred in some cases). Personally I have been told to my face that I deserve to be tortured for all eternity in hell for my lack of belief (despite living an otherwise moral life) and that my life is utterly pointless and that it should make no difference to me if I were to commit suicide now rather than waiting to die of other causes. (And these were my friends!. With friends like these......) But the zeitgeist seems to be thankfully changing. It is starting to become more socially acceptable to be an atheist, without so many people assuming that you eat babies. And so you hear more and more people coming out and openly stating that they are atheists. This of course has secondary effects. People seeing others stating that they are atheists, others who may be respected, or even friends, causes them to think about their own beliefs. It makes them confront the negative stereotype of atheists that they have in their heads - the bitter angry loner who resents society. It may even cause them to question their own beliefs - "do I really believe what I claim to believe? Do I have good reason to? Or is it just because I was brought up to believe that way?" |
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Are you saying that poverty drives people to religion? Or poverty drives people to atheism? |
Atheism is easier for educated people.
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I think what abaya is saying is that people who are more well-off have the luxery of reading more and learning more things beyond what they are taught in school and taught by their family/religion.
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I think the "sudden rise" in Atheism is stemming from the fact that is now acceptable to admit to being one. Back in the days of yore, when you could lose your job, lose your family, be tortured, killed, or excommunicated for saying you didn't believe in God, "out" atheists were pretty slim.
Nowadays society is coming to accept that gee golly - you can be an Athiest - a lot more people are declaring themselves as such. I don't think their numbers have changed at all, but merely their visibility. http://weirdweirdworld.com/images/b3...27da62c26d.png |
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It is clear that religeosity declines as educational standards rise - for whatever reason, free thinking and clear reasoning skills seem to tally with a fall in orthodoxy. If you look at the Europan 17th and 18th Century period of the Enlightenment, first there was the reformation, then a rise in learning, then a rise in non-conformist Christianity, then the rise in public acceptance of people admitting to Atheism. It just means that you 'mericans are catching up. Welcome to the 18th Century! :rolleyes: |
Although it's definitely worth considering, and strongly, that the privileged find it easier to arrive at atheism, I wouldn't feel it diminishes atheism. Thanks, abaya, for bringing this up.
The same thing could be said of science in general (which I feel atheism is a part of). Of course the more well-off are and ought to be leading the way in these sorts of philosophical pursuits. |
Here is a fact that the religious don't like to acknowledge. It makes them uncomfortable. Everyone is born an atheist. Atheism is the default.
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I think atheism is a result of progression. I believe the more there is to know about something, the less there is to make up. By "knowing" I mean, witnessing, observing, touching, feeling, and other forms of hard evidence. As we progress in science and society, with the sharing of knowledge, opinions, experiences and our direct effect of communicating with one another, people are starting to become demistified. Part of what faith is is being "impressed" by something beyond comprehension. As we humans are able to comprehend more and more, the less faith there is to have.
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In addiction circles, there is talk of putting belief in a power greater than the self (theism) as a means for recovery.
Because it was this reliance upon oneself (atheism) that got them into addiction to begin with. It seems to me this scenario can substitute for any case of spiritual impoverishment, be it gambling, overeating, extreme poverty, overshopping, sexual addictions, disease and sickness, eating disorders, alcoholism, neuroses, criminal behavior, sexual/physical/emotional abuse, severe depression, OCD, etc. Where is one to turn when it becomes impossible to look inward for spiritual comfort? . . . (shakran, let me know if I'm threadjacking and I'll stop here.) |
Atheism leads to addiction? Not in the least. The loss of self control leads to addiction. The use of theism in breaking addiction is about replacing one control with another, one dependence with another.
I require no spiritual comfort the same way I don't require the force from Star Wars. It's fictional. |
I think it's a mistake to equate atheism with addiction. The purpose of a "higher power" in 12 step programs is to highlight that one cannot accomplish everything by oneself. Indeed, relying only on yourself to try and kick an addiction is, generally, a very big mistake and a sure recipe for failure. Twelve step programs refer to a higher power to encourage addicts to admit that they are not all powerful and that they cannot control their addictions without outside help. There does not need to be a god for this to be true. Unless I'm mistaken, 12 step programs do not generally dictate what that higher power is, and as such I don't think atheism necessarily goes against what 12 step programs teach. The higher power, for example, may be the power of collective humanity. The power of love, generated by strong bonds between people. That's a higher power, and it certainly goes a long way toward breaking down an addict's barriers to outside help. It also doesn't require belief in any sort of god.
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In particular, consider the following from it: Quote:
Something else that confuses the issue is that many atheists I've met are disgruntled working-class people who barely had a high-school education. They didn't believe in God because if there were a God, their life wouldn't suck so much... On the other hand, there are many mega-wealthy people I read about who are devoutly religious. |
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Atheism is reserved for those strong enough to take the hard route; if you need an easier route, then by all means be religious - I won't hold it against you at all. |
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A theist accusing an atheist of self-righteousness?
http://ganjataz.com/general-bollocks...ttle-black.jpg |
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I'm not a theist, btw. Quote:
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I think we're all aware of how good it can feel to convince yourself(not you specifically) that you are better than others. All i'm saying is that there is a noticeable portion of atheists who seem to derive more pleasure from copping a holier than thou attitude towards theists than might be expected when you take into account that they're often the very same atheists who complain about holier than thou attitude given off by noticeable portions of theists. I'm not saying that all atheists are like that, just that there are many who are. |
atheism is a "harder route" how does that work? I would think it would be far easier for a person to say....blah blah blah..doesnt exist....I wont believe in anything thats not tangible...Im not accountable for anything when I die because there is nothing after death..etc
how is that "hard"? I dont see where that requires "strength" at all. |
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However, I do think Marx had a point with his "religion is the opiate of the masses" line... and since much of my theoretical foundation in my studies comes from cultural materialism (traced back to Marx, in part), I am biased towards thinking that many (not all) people who have less material resources have far less time and money to sit back and chew their spiritual cud... at least, as opposed to those of us who can afford to go to university and sit around shooting the spiritual shit over a joint with our deep-thinking buddies. This is especially true in developing and/or traditional societies, I think, where tribe and family are much more intertwined with faith and confessional identity (and thus much more rigid) than they are in the West. That is, when one lacks financial and human capital, one finds it in social capital... and where else to find social capital more regularly than at your local church, mosque, temple, what have you? Quote:
So, I guess for me, losing faith was actually MUCH more difficult than gaining it, the latter which came almost naturally to me... having faith was not hard for me, a long time ago. I lost a lot of friends by walking away from the church, and a big part of who I was. It was not easy for me, and still isn't. I wish I could run back to church and sing my favorite songs and shake everyone's hand again... but I just can't. |
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I'd say it also a little harder to be an atheist because your are on your own. Those who choose religion (regardless of which) have a road map and, if they attend services, continual guidance in the form of some sort of spiritual leader.
Being an atheist means doing the right thing because it is the right thing, not just because a book or a spiritual leader tells you you will be eternally punished if you don't. |
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On the other hand, being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean that one doesn't have a map. After all, buddhism is atheistic(correct me if i'm wrong, it's been a while), yet is incredibly prescriptive. Also, depending on the particular brand of theism in question, there isn't necessarily a map. Quote:
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I think Richard Dawkins has put atheism back in the public consciousness in a big way, which is why we're seeing people jumping aboard. Without wanting to disparage anyone's particular belief, I can't say that I think it's a bad thing, but I wished I believed they were doing it because they'd really thought about it.
Agnosticism is interesing in itself since what you're basically saying you can't prove or disprove the existence of god, so belief is impossible. But you also can't prove or disprove the existence of allsorts of other things that are nevertheless unreasonable to believe in, such as hobbits, elves, fairies, men on mars, Cthulhu, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster. So to be agnostic about god is to be agnostic about anything we don't have direct evidence for. If you, as an agnostic, accept that it's unreasonable to believe in hobbits, then why not god? If you then go on to accept that it's unreasonable to believe in god, then you're pretty much an atheist. It's also worth pointing out, I think, that absolute atheism is as much a position of 'faith' as hardline theism is, since I don't think we can honestly discount the possibility of a god. |
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And if you want to be technical the breakdown of agnostic is a - gnostic. Gnosis is an early christian term for spiritual knowledge, and therefore it is not technically possible to be agnostic about anything but a diety. Quote:
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It's also worth pointing out, I think, that absolute atheism is as much a position of 'faith' as hardline theism is, since I don't think we can honestly discount the possibility of a god.[/QUOTE] |
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we must remember that all theist, are atheist to 99.999% of all the gods that have came before. |
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but they are from the inspired word of Tolkein, who many revere as deity. |
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In any event, just because you can't say who invented God, doesn't mean that he wasn't invented. Quote:
I certainly wouldn't say angnosticism is impossible, but I would assuredly take issue with the notion that all agnostics are, by defnition, completely ambivalent about god's existence, and I'd go further to say that in the absence of better terms for their position, those who veer away from total ambivalence might as well be called atheists or theists, according to the direction they go. It would likely thin the numbers of declared 'agnostics' considerably. |
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Buddhism, while not theist is spiritual and does have a prescribed method of seeking "enlightenment". I am referring more the standard organized religion method of theism. The benefit to an organized religion is that it *is* all laid out for you. Do *this* and you will achieve *this*. I am not the sort who would deny people the right to pursue their spiritual path. I am also not the sort to say that one should always be rational. Irrational thought, to me, is when the moments of "magic" occur (and I don't mean magic like pulling rabbits out of a hat or turning water into wine). It was in search of this essence of irrationality that I did so many drugs in my 20s and spent so much time looking to break away from the rational world. Art, creativity, tangential thinking, Freudian slips, humour, etc. are all magic moments of the irrational. I embrace these moments as they occur. For me, inspiration does not come from rational thought. That said, I do not look to external forces such as deities for these moments. I see religions, at their root, as myths we, as humans, have created to explain the unexplainable. All of the other baggage that has been attached to religion... rules of diet, rules of sexual relations, rules of doctrine, etc. are all just controls on society - controls largely there to control the unruly masses. These rules were largely created (largely) thousands of years ago in a world that was a very different place. Quote:
My larger point was that being an atheist in America, in this day and age, is not an easy row to hoe. But with more discussion and more exposure, such as Sweeny and Dawkins there will come an understanding that atheists are people too. Just because they don't believe in God doesn't make them evil or immoral. |
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My thing is that i grew up in a pretty religious household (my dad is a pastor) where i was not expected to believe in god, i was not expected to act a certain way based on the threat of damnation. My dad never told me to do something because god wanted me to do it, all the rules he set forth were solidly secular. He's a christian, but you'd never know it because unless you're at church it probably wouldn't come up. My experience with christianity isn't in the majority, but it is still authentic, so when i see all christians being lumped together it doesn't sit right with me and i have to say something. Thank you for your reasonable response. I think that when it comes to dysfunctional human institutions like religion, the weak link is the human, not the ideology. |
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My experience with religion runs the gamut from child molesting church leaders to fascinating Ministers (a Canon in the Aglican Church actually) who is my person I point to when I need to come up with someone who is devout that impresses me. I may not buy into his belief system but he doesn't hold it against me. More importantly he is always full of questions. Every time I see him he has a list of questions to ask me about (anything from the television business to world politics). The guy is always thinking and always reading. I am not sure the point I am trying to make here other than, there is a vast variety of people who have bought into religion. Personally, I think they are fooling themselves but I realize that, for some anyway, they get something out of religion that they find missing in their daily life. Who am I to fuck that up for them? |
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I really don't like evangelicals of any faith being held up as the archetype for religion. |
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Sorry, Dilbert, but you're wrong there too. There are many priests, etc who are very well versed in science. I have met a fair share who have doctorates in scientific fields such as biology (and also accept and understand what they were taught in those fields). Like hagatha said, using the evangelicals as an archetype is a very bad idea. There's a reason the majority of religions actually do accept science.
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So their beliefs and understanding must be in turmoil, then. After all, you cannot very well say I believe this based on reasonable proof and then turn around and say I believe this despite a complete lack of truth. That must make their lives very difficult.
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Perhaps you could benefit from actually exposing yourself to the amount of spiritual diversity offered by christianity, rather than just your dad's church. You might actually find that you no longer feel so compelled to put yourself on a pedestal over millions of people whose beliefs you can't even be bothered to differentiate between(let alone understand). |
I guess you missed the fact that the first 20 years of my life I was submerged in the thick of fundamentalist Christianity. It wasn't just my dad's church at all. First off, my dad has not just been at one church, he has been in many spanning the US. Not only that, but I was active in the faith in that I would go to the various social functions, meetings, conventions that there are to experience. I understand faith just fine. Not only that, but but I've experienced Islam, Judaism, Buddhism, and Hinduism substantially as I searched out my own personal truth and understanding. Instead of a weak strawman, I would ask that you actually make an argument or try to poke logistical holes in mine.
Faith and reason are in turmoil. Those doctors and scientists and researchers have to ignore that they work within two opposing systems of reality. Again, that must lead to difficulties, whether it be denial, disassociation, or what have you. |
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At the very least, why not take the unknowable and use it your advantage? Leverage it however way you feel it helps you out. Make something out of nothing. Like ShaniFaye said above, the easy thing is to ignore and rebel. It seems to me that by simply casting it all off as bogus, one is rejecting a potential source of psychological and spiritual enrichment. Seems counterproductive. |
regarding the op, here is a speculation.
i dont think there is any particular movement on the ground called atheism. i am not sure whether there is any particular increase of non-belief, where it might be happening, how it might be measured. what you do have happening is an increase in the amount of discursive referencing of atheism. so let's exclude zeitgeist as an explanation. you can always exclude zeitgeist as an explanation. what is it? "spirit of the time"? what is that? the assumption that there is some animating force that sweeps through history, that unfolds progressively, in stages---something then that you or i could get an image of by looking for stages in history. what is a stage? well, this is where the problems start. a stage is what you want it to be. so if you are inclined to see atheism as a desirable end, and you see an increase in references to the word in the press, say, you could use the notion of zeitgeist to link these references to something in the world like a rise in the number of atheists. but that's circular: what is happening is that you are using a category so that you can see in the world stuff that you want to see in the world. so that's out. i think that atheism is primarily a christian category that refers to the reverse of itself. so over the past few years, we have had to endure the rise to near-legitimacy of a particular variant of christianity---rightwing extremist fundamentalist types--as an element within the rightwing extremist coalition that is responsible for the bush regime. now you are seeing the crumbling of that regime and fracturing of the coalition that is responsible for it. it follows that, for the fundamentalist protestant community that identifies itself, its interests, its theocratic political aspirations with the fortunes of the bush administration, the sky is now falling. since these groups talk about themselves as if they and they alone defined christianity (a lunatic claim, but no matter here), and since it follows from that to see in these groups folk who are wholly incapable of relativizing their own positions, you can imagine that the crumbling of the bush regime and of the coalition for which it stands can be seen as a defeat for god. the idea that there is any sudden movement toward atheism seems to me little more than a way of expressing this defeat: "we" are god's people, "we" are taking a pounding politically, "we" are loosing ground very quickly--what is left in our wake? the absence of ourselves, the reverse of ourselves. what to call that absence, that reversal? atheism. so personally, i think this rise of atheism is about as legit as the rise of those pro-smmoking organizations brought to you by philip morris, the fake grassroots mobilizations carried out by the christian coalition via its innovations in phonebank technology, etc. the spiking in usage of this term is a function of the implosion of the collapse of fundamentalist protestant political power, and is a way for those groups to speak to themselves about it and what it means. nothing else. |
Well, pc, the depends on what meaning you've assigned to everything. In my mind, evolution and positive development are meaning enough to exclude theism from society, but some people don't consider evolution and positive development as being important.
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It could be due to the rise of the internet and the ability of people to question their faith and get information on others. Science can explain the world in a way people understand more than religious dogma.
It could be that people are tired of fighting people who don't believe in the same religion. There have been a lot of wars and hatred in the past few years because of differing beliefs. It could be the catholic priest sex scandal. People questioned going to church and being led by people that would do that. It could be that atheists are becoming more outspoken and you can be non-religious in today’s world without any problem. It could be that people started to realize that religion was designed to control people and instill fear into them. They might be happier by doing what they want to do in life without judgment from the church. Maybe parents aren't indoctrinating kids into the faith the same way anymore. I know that in elementary school, I started questioning my 'faith' and religion. I always said "one nation, many states" during the pledge of allegiance instead of "one nation, under God". |
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The only reason i mentioned it was because you seem to lack the will to differentiate between different types of faith. You seem to think that all theists think the same exact things in the exact same ways. This is plainly wrong, and the fact that you claim a certain amount of exposure to theism and still seem to implicitly insist through your assertions that there is only one kind of faith doesn't make sense. Also, the idea that exposure to a lot of fundamentalist churches is a sufficient basis on which to make sweeping claims about all of christianity is as valid as the idea that eating at a lot of different mcdonald's is a sufficient basis on which to make sweeping claims about how food is prepared. Quote:
How are faith and reason opposing systems? Are algebra and geometry opposing systems? Physics and supply side economics? Please explain the means by which you came to that conclusion. As far as i can tell, being based on different assumptions isn't the same thing as being in direct opposition. |
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These people spent a number of years at mostly secular institutions earning their PhDs in hard sciences... and came out just as Christian as they were when they began, if not more so (which is the part that surprises me, personally). For them, the science they practiced only confirmed the fact that God was in charge of everything. If they had any internal conflict about the issue, they discussed the issue with their students and were very honest about it. But they were all still committed to their faith, and their science. The two are by no means mutually exclusive. Let me just say that after I graduated and went on to a secular public university to pursue my PhD, I never found any faculty or staff that I enjoyed working with more than I did with those undergraduate professors. They knew their shit and they were damn fine people, regardless of their beliefs. Or maybe because of them. Who am I to say? |
abaya, we are talking about a similar subject on my wedding board and I have a scientist on there and she has basically said the same thing about her research and confirmation of God and how science basically worked to show her further prove of God's existance
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The two big ones are where did we come from and what happens when we die. ALL religions have answers for these two questions. Most go beyond that and prescribe a way to live, a code of ethics and morality. On the whole you are right, it does seem that ignoring this is easy. Cast all of it away and follow no systemic, prescribed path. This would be true if those who leave (or never find) religion were just "rebellious" and with out any sense of morality. I don't hold that you need religion to know what is right and what is wrong. I have just *never* found religion useful. I have read the bible and I have gone to church. I have studied the new and old testament in University and spent time looking into other religions (from Mormons to Buddhist and back again). Some of them have some interesting ideas about how to live life but I could never get over their basic tenets of higher powers, afterlife, etc. I might as well believe in fairies down in the garden. So, on one hand, yes, it is easier to not choose a path to follow. I don't have to cover my head when I am outside, attended a weekly or daily service, pledge allegiance to a higher power, devote myself to a life of poverty or any of the various and sundry rules that come with all the various flavours of religious life. But to stretch the analogy further, my path isn't laid out for me. I don't have a light at the end of my journey. Heck, I don't even have a path to follow. I am figuring it out as I go along. There is no reward (or punishment) waiting for me. There is no afterlife or regeneration. I wish there was an afterlife it would be a lot easier to live with regrets if I knew that I'd get a second chance. I just cannot live my life based on a fiction. This may seem counterproductive to you but to me it's all I've got. |
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1) faith in fiction 2) faith in reason Theists always have 1 and sometimes have 2, but atheists have only 2 and never have 1. Quote:
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Faith is a belief that's not based in proof. Reason is conclusions based on proof. How do you see these as not being fundamentally opposed? Quote:
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But for some people (perhaps my professors), I honestly think they have reconciled in themselves that the Bible is not always literally true, but they still find Truth in it as a whole... and they let these facets guide their lives, instead of focusing on the minute details (e.g. creating the world in 7 days... literally vs. figuratively? doesn't matter to them). I did the same for a long time, but in the end I could not see how I was being any kind of decent Christian by adhering to some rules and not to others. I was basically picking and choosing what made sense to me, and disregarding the rest. I found it disingenuous to those who actually try to live by the letter. So, away I went from the fold... |
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I don't think that ELCA or LCMS are a particularly good example of the the uber conservative to uber liberal continuum. If the only generalization you make is that all theists believe in deities than that's fine, that's not a generalization. The places where i have a problem are when you make claims about the abilities of different theistic belief systems to absorb scientific information. Quote:
You don't need to necessarily apply faith to reason, but it helps if you want funding. You can apply reason to faith. Neither necessitates the other and there are situations where one is better than the other. For instance, can you prove that you love your family? How? You could claim that your actions are those of a person in love, but maybe you're just a latent sociopath. Quote:
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The old testament and the Torah is MUCH older than 1500 years
I would like to see physical proof of love, can you enlighten me on that? Why is it the burden is always on the believers to "prove" the existance God.....I want some one to "prove" to me he doesnt exist. Why is it so important for atheists to keep trying to disprove something they dont believe in anyway? Someone who doesnt acknowledge the existance of the holy spirt surely isnt going to understand how it fills the person of a believer and let me tell you what....I wouldnt trade that feeling for what would surely be total emptiness for anything. |
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However, that doesn't mean I have any disrespect for those who still feel the spirit, not at all. I've been there, and it was real for me at the time. I wouldn't want to take that away from anyone. But for me, I had to walk away. |
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/science/hottopics/love/ Quote:
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I don't bring it up unless people ask. Quote:
You obviously have to decide for yourself, but if you ask, expect me to answer. This thread is about atheism, and I've been addressing the subject. |
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Once upon a time in America though, circa the late 60s, rumor has it that it was the progressive liberals who were dropping all the acid and smoking all the Maui Wauwi - tuning out conservatism and the war, and tuning into the "cosmic consciousness" and transcendental grooviness of the universe, Hari Krishnas dancing in the streets and passing out religious literature - it was a veritable hippy revolution of religion and spirituality! And what about spirituality in the arts nowadays? Do we realize that great art can no longer be taken seriously because of you atheists? That there is no longer a spiritual component to a great Matisse or Chagall due to excessive religious overtone? Perhaps this isn't our father's America (or Canadastan) anymore. :orly: |
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How is theism not an honest effort at answering the question "how does this work"? Perhaps in a few centuries science will have an answer and your ghost can ride around on a ghostly high horse and hand out "i told you so's" to all the theist ghosts you come across. Quote:
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If you're trying to point out that reason and faith are opposites, well, maybe. It's a trivial observation. Just because two things could be considered opposites does not mean that they are opposed in any sort of meaningful sense. A stapler and staple remover are opposites in their functions, but to claim that the ability to use them both could only be the result of some sort of inner turmoil is ridiculous. The notion of faith and reason engaged in a death match over the future of the human race is perhaps somewhat understandable, but the general trend seems to be moving in the opposite direction. |
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OK you guys, take a quick break for a group hug.
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So theism isn't an honest effort at explaining how things got to be the way that they are? There is evidence, it just happens to be a couple thousand years old and a little too fantastic. Quote:
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It seems to me that any exclusive commitment to reason is necessarily based on faith because it cannot be proven that an exclusive commitment to reason will make you better off in the long run than a commitment to faith and reason. Quote:
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In my mind, all there really did was replace one power structure with another. And all the drugs led to was either escapism from responsibility or in the worst cases, solipsist nightmares. No thank you. As for atheism and the arts... interesting position. As you will note in my posts above, I do not subscribe to the completely rational mindset. I recognize the world is not an entirely rational place. For me, creativity comes from the irrational. I welcome these moments of pure oddness. They are what makes the world interesting. As for an appreciation of art in general... I ask this: what are aesthetics? what is beauty? what is art? Are you suggesting that a world without God (or Gods) is a world without an appreciation of these things? Or are you simply suggesting that great artworks that have religious contents should somehow be ignored because of those contents? |
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[QUOTE=filtherton]You seem to think that they're strict interpreters too? The Bible, for example, is very clear on many points. One of them is that god exists. I think that we've already agreed that all theists have one trait in common by the word's very meaning: they all believe in a god or gods. On that stance alone I can claim that they are wholly wrong. Quote:
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If science and religion are on such good terms, why do most church bodies fight against embryonic stem cell research? Bush originally fought against stem cell research because of moral reasons (coming from his religion), and only caved after California signed bill SB 253, the first US law permitting stem cell research, and the Reagans mounted a massive campaign after Ronald Reagan's deterioration and death from Alzheimer's. |
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You and dawkins can redefine the terms atheist and agnostic all you want, i don't care about those. Stay away from the rest of the words, please. Quote:
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It might be considered reasonable behavior according to the dictionary's definition of reason, though probably not according to your definition. Personally, i would find it rather quirky, but probably harmless. Quote:
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Science and religion in america are on the best terms that they have been on in a long time, probably ever. The catholic church is even warming up to evolution. Did you know that february 8th was evolution sunday, where almost six hundred churches in the u.s. emphasized the compatibility of their faith and darwinism? Remember when creationism didn't have to clothe itself in pseudoscience to have long odds to be taught in a public school? Remember when it was illegal to get a blowjob? Man, that sucked. Remember when it was illegal to get a safe abortion? Man, that sucked, though you no doubt disagree since you and the conservative christians agree on the subject of abortion. Remember when praying in school was something the christians did over the loudspeaker? Your sense of urgency about the conflict between religion and secularism is at least 10 years too late. |
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A great deal of evidence exists to support theories of the beginning of the universe, such as the big bang. Just because it cannot be proven does not put it in the same category as god. A great deal of evidence supports big bang, no evidence exists to support god. Quote:
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Science and religion in America are lagging behind Europe, Canada, and many other places in the world. |
Is this a discussion or a cage-match?
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I think people need to be careful about what they are claiming for each of the two systems (science and faith). Faith created a problem for itself by overpromising - purporting to explain too much. When some of what it claimed to explain was shown not to be correct (e.g. Galileo), that set in motion a chain of events leading up to this day that steadily constricted the sphere of what it reasonably could be said to explain, to the point that today a substantial number of people say it explains nothing.
Those who put their faith in science need to resist the lure of overexplaining as well. Bear in mind that there are "fads" in science just as surely as in clothing. Eugenics was quite popular as science 85 years ago. So was racism and social darwinism. In my adulthood, as I try to keep my weight down, I have been warned away from (in succession) fats (but complex carbs OK), complex carbohydrates (but protein OK so long as the fat was unsaturated), saturated fats (but only in red meat, not fish), etc etc etc. Look at cosmology in the last 50 years, starting with Einstein, and how much it has changed. One criticism of string theory is that it requires much to be taken on faith. Science and religion operate separately, or at least they should. Reason isn't foreign to either one (if you take the current Pope seriously -- and he is supposed to be a major intellect, from what I read -- you can't have faith without reason). But don't expect either one to bear more weight than it reasonably should. Science can't explain why we're here or how we should live. Faith can't explain how physical laws work. |
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That said, I think everyone reading or participating in this discussion would benefit from replacing theism and christians in the above quote with atheism and atheists... Quote:
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I'm really not sure what to make of this poll:<BLOCKQUOTE>A recent Gallup poll reveals that Americans are much more likely to elect a black man or a woman president than a Mormon or an old man. More interestingly, they’d rather be governed by a homosexual than an atheist.</BLOCKQUOTE>Complete article is <A HREF="http://www.outsidethebeltway.com/archives/2007/02/black_president_more_likely_than_mormon_or_atheist_/">here</A>.
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Oh - Will - I thought I'd share two pieces of insight I took from my "If you're depressed, you're a failure" thread, after I got owned by the respondents there.
In each case, the one doing the insulting looks like an insolent ass. I know from personal experience, because I looked like one after posting my thread. |
I feel like i'm pissing into my own bladder.
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I think i can see where you're going to go with this. If you really want to go in that direction you should ask yourself "Am i really giving this as much thought as i should?" Quote:
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i figure I'll throw in a couple of cents late in the ball game, not that they'll amount to much.
personally, I think it takes time for people to be "ok" with atheism. I've been in several drawn out arguments with...hell, anyone...loved ones, unloved ones, unknown ones, you name it. Its a profound waste of time. they all involve a christian telling me that I'm empty inside, followed by a few stories of bad people who changed their lives for god, and now they're happy. and I just cant accept the arguments they provide, so we go back and forth, they tell me more of the same, and ignore the points I've brought up. it usually ends with the christian giving up and telling me that I must lead a dark, lonely existence. and I definetely think that its easier to follow the religious path laid out for you by those in front. the free-market religious system has set up all sorts of groups, etc to help re-affirm your beleif... really, being atheist is fairly similar to being gay in terms of the way you are viewed by religious society and family. I can recall my christian days, when we christians would go to "jesus now" or some similar conference to sing songs, hear magical stories, and we would be led away to re-dedicate our lives to jesus (if we so chose). I always felt left out, because the only thing that I did wrong was look at porno and beat off....and I didnt figure that I was in need of a re-dedication to christ for fufilling a desire that was imprinted onto my brain by "him" I guess I am to the point now where I dont care, and if someone comes to me and asks what religion I am, Im a christian (to save time). and, for practical purposes, I am "muslim"...but thats another story. |
I wonder how easy the Jews throughout history have thought being devout was?
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Speaking for a moment as to what I'm doing about Saudi Arabia, I'm friends with several very influential imams (I am very good friends with one of their sons, who is my age and shares my affinity for driving fast cars) in Arizona who often travel back to Iran in order to preach and teach and learn. I've had several serious discussions with them about how to bring the centrists and liberals of Islam into the ME, in order to counter the dogmatic and violent situation there now. They agree that bringing a more international view of Islam into the ME could act to calm down the extremists who have no other source of true Islam, which is very much peaceful. Bringing them the Islam I'm familiar with would be like bringing Vatican 2 policy to the Spanish Inquisition. It could really serve to help. |
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jews, native americans, christians, "heretics", muslims, black people, scientists, philoshophers...the list goes on of groups that have been persecuted. Historically, it has been very difficult to disown "your people", due to language barriers, etc. it would be at a very minimum extremely difficult to disown your jewish heritage/family and become part of the dominant class. allow me to provide a hyperbole...a jewish raised man under the rule of the egyptians is no more likely to become an upstanding member of the egyptian society than a black man on a plantation was to wake up and be "white". back to reality, you cant really compare the historical journey of a race with your life today in western society. |
um, I wasnt....I was going back to the "its easier to be religous and have a path to follow than to be an atheist"
I dont see whether it be in ancient times, or in Modern (as in the holocaust) how a religious path paved for them made it exactly, espcially since they were persecuted because of their religion I dont really understand your point in relation to what my point was? |
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I also don't understand your claim that 'love' is nothing other than a bio-chemical reaction. This seems similar to the claim that pain is nothing other than C-fibers firing.* No, pain is that sensation I get when something's hurting me. While the physical mechanism is the cause of that sensation, there is more to the sensation than just the physical mechanism. Similarly, even if love is causally reducible to a physical mechanism, what love is, is the feeling that I am conscious of. To think otherwise is to just ignore the phenomenology of the whole thing. *I've heard that the physical mechanism of pain is actually not C-fibers firing. If this is wrong, just ignore it -- it's not really important to the point. |
You can scientifically prove Love? You must be joking. That is rediculous. You need to get educated because that is about the dumbest thing ive ever heard in my life.
filtherton - 1 willravel - 0 |
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Funny thing about all that education...maybe you need to get a lobotomy or somehow lower your IQ because you're wrong here. You've had too much education if you can say with a straight face that you can measure love. Think about that for a long minute: SCIENTISTS CAN MEASURE LOVE.
Hahahaha! |
Again, quote me an article, quote me an interview, quote me from a textbook. You can make fun of me all you want, but until you prove me wrong your posts remain meaningless.
I'm reminded of a time when I was out with some friends and my then girlfriend. We went to a restaurant that happened to have a piano. The next part was right out of the movie Shine. Someone went up to play the piano and screwed up Fur Elise. I chuckled under my breath. Apparently, he thought he had played it perfectly. Instead of realizing I wasn't trying to disrespect him, he gave me the old "I'd like to see you do better." What he didn't know was that I've been playing piano since I was 4. I went up and played Fur Elise (one of the most hated songs by pianists, btw) correctly and then sat back down again. He insisted that I screwed up. I went back to the piano and played the piano part from Rhapsody in Blue from beginning to end. He realized that I knew what I was doing. As I left, I told him that he was quite talented and that if he had played as long as I had I'm sure he could have shown me a thing or two. |
my my what a strange thread this is becoming.
there is a scorekeeper now and everything. something strangely mideval is taking shape--a contest between peripetetics, one of those three-round discursive boxing matches attended by the entire faculty of the local omniversity, a kind of sporting event. i am confused: what point is being pursued--not made--with reference to the curious status of love as a category? besides, i thought haddaway had already defined love. giving a general account of it is simple enough---a directing of the instinct for reproduction routed through a dense, curious linguistic category. in that way, it is not different from any other category, in that once the association is in place, you use it and so what it comes to mean gets sedimented with the history of its usage--a history of associations. if your experience is such that you have come to associate "love" with aspects of attributed to this other category "god" then--well what?---the association doesn't explain ANYTHING---except something about your personal history, your trajectory through informational environments (vector that you are)---any more than managing to equate a bundle of affect that you associate with love with a discrete sequence of biochemical responses would. in a strange way, they are the same argument: both in the end would respond to the question "what is love?" (damn it, there's haddaway again....) by saying "it happens here." which really doesn't say anything. if you say "god is love" you are only repeating an experiential loop--since there is nothing that you can say or do that would demonstrate that this loop has any hold on anything (except to other members of the same community, who would be defined in some way by internalization of this loop as if it had some explanatory power)--all you do by using it is demonstrate your membership in that particular community. besides, it is unlikely that a discrete biochemical reaction that would "explain" love would be meaningfully localized in any event--it could be part of an explanation for love as an embodied experience--but it wouldn't EXPLAIN the experience--if only because you have the mediation of language involved with the experience (without it, what shape would the experience have) and so a whole other set of factors/problems to take into account if you wanted to go this route. the idea that locating a particular chemical response in a particular place in the brain would explain love is hooked to a particular way of thinking about cognition. it is far from the only such model and there is little agreement about which model is preferable to others: each open onto different types of information, each has a function that it serves and any number of others that it doesn't. |
quote...quote...quote. Bah. Feel...feel...feel instead. Do you change your batteries every night before bedtime as well?
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I'd like to put the love thing to rest. I can provide evidence both biochemical and psychological that someone is in love or that someone has feelings of love. It can't be 100%, but I can be fairly sure (and with psychology, that's often as good as it gets). The thing is, it's all subjective. While I can present the evidence, it's easy for me to be using "love" in one way and you in another. Love, after all, isn't easy to define. The reason it was introduced into this thread was because it was being related to evidence explaining something intangible or philosophical. God, as was suggested by the point, is going to be an intangible or philosophical creature, but the Torah, Bible, and Qu'ran all make it clear that god is more than an idea. God is as real as you or I, and it's made clear when he pulls back a great body of water for Moses, or allows his own son to perform miracles, or allows an illiterate farmer to write a beautiful book. The problem is that you can't relate symptoms of an emotion with proof of a deity, not only because it's a case of apples and oranges, but because there is no evidence for the existence of god. There is some evidence, be it biochemical or psychological, for love.
For the sake of not threadjacking, I'll leave the "love" part of the discussion to end here. This is about atheism, not the nature of emotions. Quote:
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with all due respect because you're new.....As much as I disagree with just about every single thing willravel has said, your comments are not doing much to further the discussion are they?
Its interesting to see some of the names you posted willravel, because at least two of them were believers in god, Galileo and Einstein. |
things grow curiouser and curiouser...
anyway, i am not sure of much, but this is one thing i am sure of....this: Quote:
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I'd probably have spoken up if someone said that a theist scientist was atheist, too, btw. I'm interested in keeping this whole thing factual.
Also, I'll always respect you a great deal, Shani. |
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Unless y'all just like to wrestle and get dirty in the mud, then suit yourself. At least get naked first. :thumbsup: |
and I respect you too :) I dont have to agree with your thinking to do that, a person who has such faith (oh no did I use that word?!?!?!) in their convictions is not a bad thing. I have honestly enjoyed the exchange you and filtherton have been having.
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