Will -- I never said that the world was perfectly designed, only that it exhibited signs of design. And order doesn't imply lack of ruthlessness. As for never saying that theism causes injustice, what about the following:

You also make the claim that non-fundamentalist Christians just pick and choose what to believe. This is simply false. Consider the claim that God created the world in seven days. This is actually the more recent belief -- Christians at least as far back as Augustine believed that passage of Genesis to be metaphorical. An interpretation of scripture that says some passages are metaphorical isn't the same as simply picking and choosing what you believe.

roachboy -- in a nutshell, the fine-tuning argument argues that, given the extreme unlikelihood of the fundamental constants being suitable for the development of matter (not to mention life), it's more reasonable to believe in a God than to not believe in a God. The argument is, of course, a lot more sophisticated than this.

Because you offered no evidence, I had to try and guess at what you were talking about.
Religion doesn't cause the injustice, BUT it sure as hell facilitates it. Tell you what, why don't you name the worst crimes committed by atheists, then I'll list some made by theists. That would help me explain.
What about God killing millions of people for not believing in him? Was that a metaphor for getting to know yourself or being kind to strangers? What about flooding the planet? What about the slaughter of the former inhabitants of Jericho, except the young girls for the Israelites to keep for themselves ("Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.")?

This big guy in the sky killed, or caused to be killed, millions of innocent people. God ordered, or approved of, the murder of civilians, of little children, of helpless old people, defenseless women, prisoners of war, and even livestock. It tells us that God approved the instructions to soldiers to keep the virgins for yourselves. The biggest problem with the Bible, Torah and Qu'ran is that we have people claiming that not all of it should be taken literally and that it's more to give you a moral compass....but God is hardly a good moral compass by today's standards. So theists are stuck. Either they have to accept that the Bible is true and that the creator of the universe is a cold blooded killer, or (and much, much more often) they pick and choose, which is what I was talking about.

So I guess the question is: is god a murderer, or do you pick and choose what to believe?

I'm getting that sinking feeling again... :no:

I do want to say that I like what roachboy had to say about the Cloud of Unknowing. It's been many years since I read that book... but yes, I agree with you there. I'm alright with it, too.

Me too. At this point, will, i think i'm all debated out on this particular topic. I'm a busy fucker, and as much as i enjoy this whole deal i don't know if i can do it again for a while.

First off I want to apologize in advance. I have a feeling this post will ramble because I'm exhausted, and it may offend a few because it will deal with issues they would rather not see, but. . so be it.


It's important to continually challenge one's beliefs. Blind acceptance is never a good thing. That's what got us into the Iraq war. We blindly accepted the notion that they had WMD's and were harboring terrorists. Neither was true, and now we're in a mess. Had we not blindly accepted it, perhaps we would not be in this mess.

What does this have to do with religion? Well, I think it's important to question what you've been told about that as well. I'll give you an example. When I was young I was told about a guy who lived far away from me, and who I would never see, but who watched over everything I did and would judge my actions. Based on those actions, I would either get rewarded or punished. He loved me, and it was important to believe in him.

Story sounded pretty good to my 6 year old ears, but it was when the flying reindeer and the intra-chimney excursions with large objects came into play that I started having questions.

Point? Let's look at the interesting similarities between Santa Claus and God. We're told as children that both of them exist, that they watch everything you do, and judge you. We're told we have to be good or they will get angry. Santa will then give you coal or switches instead of toys, and God will send you to hell.

But look at the differences. As children we have direct evidence that Santa exists. We see him and his elves in the shopping mall. We see the presents he leaves us on Christmas. The cookies we leave him are gone in the morning. That's frankly a LOT more evidence of Santa's existance than we have of God's existance, yet we cover our chuckles with our hands as we watch our childrens' eyes glow at the thought of santa, and we think "How cute, they believe a jolly old elf gives them presents every year." Then we go pray.

The point in all this is that we really don't have any evidence that God exists. That's why it's called faith, not fact. I don't think we should be upset at the direction this thread is going just because Will states his beliefs in a no-nonsense way. I don't think he's pulling a Dawkins, and saying that all of you who do believe in god are morons, and I don't see any reason to think the thread is turning nasty.

In fact I think he has a very good point when he talks about homosexual marriage. I don't think anyone should be persecuted for their religious beliefs, whether you don't believe, you believe in God, or the Great Green Arkleseizure. Doesn't matter.

But by the same token, you should not persecute others because of your beliefs. In other words, if YOU feel homosexual relationships are sinful, then don't get into a homosexual relationship. But who are you to say what others can and cannot do, when it doesn't effect you at all. A gay couple living down the street will not turn you gay, and will not force YOU to sin.

I agree with Will that people who are religious should practice their religion in any way they see fit, but should not be allowed to impose it on those whose beliefs are different.

This is an interesting discussion. I'm interested to see where it goes from here.

Truce! :thumbsup:

Shakran, I'm not sure if you're talking to me directly, but since you quoted me directly in your response, I guess I'll reply! :)

Just to be clear: I have no problem with Will's beliefs. In fact, I agree with pretty much every single one of them. I went from being a card-carrying evangelical in my teen/college years to whatever contentedly vague and agnostic position I'm in now, precisely because I chose to question everything I was told. Most of it went out the window. So believe me, you're preaching to the choir in terms of my reaction to what Will is saying.

My only feeling was that whenever a thread starts becoming a line-by-line dissection of each other's threads... then yeah, it gets a bit tiresome to read. It's not necessarily nasty, but I find it difficult to keep interest in a topic I would otherwise love to read about. The presentation becomes more bitter/personal/backbiting, which I don't enjoy. Maybe that's just my bias and everyone else here loves threads like that... if so, I'll shut up. :)

I'm sure, Abaya, that none of us here, especially me, wants you to shut up :)

But I will say that I think a line by line dissection actually can be a sign of respect. If you make 10 points, and I only attack you on one, then that indicates I'm ignoring 90% of what you said. You're not just writing that stuff to see yourself type - you want it to be read.

But if I don't agree with that 90%, just saying "Everything Abaya just said is crap" isn't exactly the way to go about it either. So I take it line by line, explaining why I think you're incorrect in your conclusions.

True, that can lead to very long posts, but that's just a feature of the medium.

Realistically I think it's good that we write long posts and put the thought required into our posts to dissect other posts line by line. Our society these days is entirely too soundbyte driven. I'm told almost daily that if someone I interview is on camera for more than 7 seconds, the audience stops listening. 7 seconds! How are you supposed to get ideas across like that? That's why I routinely ignore this sage advice and let 'em talk, sometimes for a minute or more. And I get away with it because viewers write in and compliment us on those stories.

My point is, long posts are great! It's time we reverse the trend toward micro-attention spans. If you want to dissect my post line by line, that's excellent. I'd love to see more of that, to be honest.

Well, I agree with the other 90% of your post :lol: (no really, I do)... but I will say, I'm really not sure if everyone here "wants their words to be read." I think many of us, myself included, like to "see ourselves type," especially since we often have so much more to say, and less inhibition here, than we do in real life. And it's the attitude behind the line-by-line stuff that drives me nuts, I guess.

I hear what you're saying about it, though (the other 90%), so I see that I should give it another chance. Thanks for the insight, shakran. :thumbsup:

This is a really good thread. I also don't think that picking apart posts is a bad thing because how else are you supposed to discuss a topic on the Internet?

"A human being is a part of a whole, called by us 'universe', a part limited in time and space. He experiences himself, his thoughts and feelings as something separated from the rest... a kind of optical delusion of his consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from this prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty. "

"We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them."

"God does not care about our mathematical difficulties. He integrates empirically."

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."

"Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish. "


Albert Einstein.



It is true organized religions and rituals are not important, but it's not a reason to stop searching yourself

Okay, I'm starting to get tired of this claim. While Galileo was surely religious, Einstein was not, particularly. While he did say things like:...which would seem to imply that he's religious, he also said things like this:...which most pious people find blasphemous. He didn't stop there, either...These examples really pissed the church off, especially the last one. Now, I know you don't put much stock into organized religion, and I appreciate that, but it's an example of how unorthodox his beliefs were. He even denied divine (absolute) morality! He basically used God as a metaphor for the forces of nature and was of a religious temperment so mild that they don't even bother Richard Dawkins.

Similarly, a lot of scientists that people on this baord have claimed to be religious really were not. None of this was particularly relevant to the various conversations in which they took part but I just dislike spreading misinformation...

As an aside to all of this, it's interesting how a zeitgeist can occur. There is a lot of talk of atheism these days and the more talk there is the more we seem to notice all the other things about atheism that are being discussed, so we talk about it some more.

I am finding it interesting that the most Atheist children's books, Bill Pulman's trilogy His Dark Materials, has been made into a film and the first book, The Golden Compass, will be released in December 2007.

As the Narnia series is to Christianity, so this series is to Atheism.

Mark my words, it will unleash a shit storm of "controversy" the likes of which Harry Potter could never dream. I was surprised it was made into a film given the ultimate human secularist message of the series.

But I suppose that is the nature of a zeitgeist.

You know, I was so preoccupied by my last post that I forgot to respond to the actual thread topic! So, why don't I do that...

You know, I don't really think that Julia Sweeney has a career to end. Her "conversion" seems genuine in light of her and her brother getting cancer (her brother didn't make it) and she's now making a new niche career out of it.

As an aside, it was weird hearing her do a (possible improv) stand-up routine based on her and her brother dealing with their cancers. During the whole ordeal, she would do a weekly routine at a local comdey club. How weird is that...

I'm sure there aren't nearly as many people "coming out" as you think...

It's just a fad for me. I'm thinking that I might want to become a creationist. I've been reading up on it and I find it fascinating.

For instance, creationists actually don't object to evolution, per se. They just object to some of the details, such as people being part of this evolution and the actual mechanism for evolution...

You've demonstrated quite clearly why you do not believe in Christianity. I do not think you have addressed the existence of a god or gods, however. You seem to be working under the assumption that if god exists, god must be as religion describes it. I don't think that is the case. If god exists, it is possible that god just set things in motion and then stepped back to observe. Science allows us to comprehend the rules of the universe, but not where they came from. It is theoretically possible that god built the universe and made it work according to the physical laws that we can study. That seems like it would be a lot easier than having to consciously think about every little thing that happens -- just program in some patterns of behavior and let the program run. I don't think science necessarily negates faith. I know several scientists who are extremely religious and view science as the tool to understand the universe the way god built it. I think that the real scientific method is to take something you believe could be true, make predictions based off of it, and then see if those predictions come true. If a religious person believes in god, prays to god to get through something, and then gets through it then they've used the scientific method to support the hypothesis that faith can help people through tough times. I'm agnostic myself because I don't believe in god exactly, but I do think it's possible that god exists. In response to an earlier point in this thread, I'm the same way about mythological or superstitious things. I don't really think vampires exist, for example, but I wouldn't be too surprised if I met one someday. I'd just be like, "Oh, so they *are* real..." (and then I'd probably die :p)

An interesting idea, but not an idea based in evidence. No evidence exists at all to suggest the existence of a supernatural intelligent creator. Anyone can guess as to the nature of the dawn of existence, but without proof it's just a guess. Without evidence or proof, it's really just a flight of fancy. It's as theoretically possible that god created the universe as it is that a super-intelligent race of corn cobs created the universe, and therein lies the ultimate truth about god: there is no ultimate truth about god.
But if you undoubtedly believed in vampires, without any proof beyond myth, then you'd be considered to have a disconnect with reality. Some people who've read Ann Rice one too many times actually do believe in vampires and some even consider themselves vampires. That's delusional. I'd say it's equally delusional to think that an immortal demigod that lived 2000 years ago lives in your heart.

Sure god might exist, but so far as reason goes, god does not.

I was a closet Atheist for years. I didn’t tell anyone. I don’t know if I didn’t wanted to be judged or piss people or didn’t want to argue with them. I didn’t even tell my wife, but she knew. I just never flat out said it. She asked me one time about it but I just danced around the question.

A close friend one day told me that she was agnostic, and she was the first person I told. I gradually told more and more people. My mom was the biggest obstacle, she is really religious and I didn’t want to break her heart. She flat out asked me over thanksgiving, and I gave her the hard honest answer that I have been wanting to tell her for so long. She took it pretty well. After that the big burden was lifted, and I don’t hide it at all, and have no problem telling anyone or expressing my views when the topic come up.

I think there is two reasons why Atheism is on the rise. First, people have more information, and starting to get skeptic to the stuff that they were spoon-fed since birth. Second, I think that there is a large percentage of the population that are closet atheist like I was, and society seems to be more understanding now, in fact more than it was five years ago.

This might be a little off topic, but I’m not sure what to do about my children with this. People of faith bring their children up to believe what they believe. I’m not sure If I should bring my children to believe what I believe, that there is no God, or present both sides and let them make up their own mind. It’s something that I really struggle with.

That's an honest struggle Ample.

My wife believes in God and I am an atheist. Our kids say prayers before bed and go to church on occasion. They have a grasp of the concept of God.

When they ask me what I believe I am honest with them. When they talk to my wife, she is honest with them.

I do not go out of my way to indoctrinate them one way or the other. I know what that I hope they will see things my way but that's not my call. I am leaving it up to them.

I think a lot of it is a response to the religious right and other fanatical religious movements around the world ramping up their rhetoric. People are starting to realize that fanatical, impractical, and nonsensical beliefs can do real damage.

A return to fanaticism and fundamentalism is usually a sign of an ideology in its death throws. When any given school of thought is incapable of reconciling its central tenets with modern life or simple objective reality, its most vocal proponents usually respond by undercutting their particular ideologies' ability to incorporate any new information. This was evident in the Taliban's takeover of Afghanistan, the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and the Christian uprising in Alexandria.

In the United States in particular, mainstream Christianity has really gone off on a tangent. The religious right routinely attempts to legislate morality and pass pseudoscientific nonsense off as legitimate science. You can only expect a rational human being to suspend their cognitive dissidence for so long. Eventually, they're going to start smelling the bullshit.

That, to a certain extent, is exactly what I think is happening. People feel more comfortable standing up and saying "You know what? BULL-SHIT."

Beyond that, I wouldn't say atheism is experiencing a growth period. We're just hearing a lot more from it's most vocal proponents. The same can be said for the batshit crazy variety of fundamentalists christians. There are plenty of believers out there who are capable of practicing their faith like grown-ups, but unfortunately they tend not to be the ones in any position of religious authority.

That being said, atheists still appear to be one of the most mistrusted minorities in America. I'm glad more are speaking up. There is a lot of unmitigated horseshit out there that goes unchallenged.

We are all atheists.

More or less. The only difference between myself and any given religious person is the fact that I don't believe in the personified existence of one more supernatural entity than they do.

I've always wondered why the non-belief in god[s] needs a label at all. After all, people don't have to identify themselves as anti-astrologers or non-geocentrists.

In post-communist Europe, we are currently privy to an unprecedented rise in the number of Catholic believers. It is a reaction against a half-century of forced atheism in some pretty backward social settings. They even banned Christmas for fourty years, do you imagine?

Of course the revival is hysterical and bigotted in nature, as revivals tend to be, and there have been some pretty far-out attempts at re-confirming Europe's Christian identity (my favourite is the attempt of the Polish parliament to elect Jesus king of their country), but they are all destined to fail since religion is always purely the matter of deep-rooted tradition and communal integration, and it's primary roles in the social structure have already been replaced by secular institutions.

The pelicularity which sets the USA apart from the EU is the fact that secularization never happened in your part of the globe, which is exactly why such a harsh and intellectualy harmful cultural war is being fought out. The reason why I have thrown myself directly into religious debate on these forums is that I have only recently come to grasp the magnitude of this acrimonious split in the american nation, having believed before that the 60s revolution was as good as the many twists and turns that have brought religion in a disadvantageous position on my own continent. But in fact, undereducation combined with the length and girth of the mideast/bible belt still seem to be eroding at your society's very core. Underinformation and the deregulation of the school system are familiar methods when it comes to theists vying for power, as are forced attempts at regimentalization of society. Frankly, I can't believe that atheism is actually something NEW in the 21st century, and that professing this worldview could actually lead to ostracism as early as three years ago. Or maybe I've gotten it wrong and atheism is emerging inan environment preconditioned by agnosticism and non-practitioning theists. But it still is a culture shock for someone who has fed on (obviously biased:P) countercultural material when attempting to learn more about your fascinating culture.

Holy shit, Prodigal... welcome to TFP Philosophy in a big way. Are you a social scientist? Also, how and why have you been able to learn so much about American culture? You're right on with pretty much everything, as far as I can tell... (in my opinion). There's hope on the coasts, though. We'll see how the next election goes.

Deregulated school......Oh lord :eek: that brings back the bad memories of that year (1993) I home schooled my daughter, in rural Indiana. :crazy: It (home schooling) was all about the bible :rolleyes: ....I was such a newbie fool to not know this going in, but boy....I sure found out quickly at the monthly home school mother's support group....:dead:

Prodigal, when you had atheism shoved down your throat, the US was making sure that every god fearing American knew that the communists were 'godless', doing everything they could to associate god with good and atheism with evil. I imagine it's an equal but opposite reaction when some Americans start turning to atheism in such a recently strong way. I wonder what a discussion between a new Catholic in Eastern Europe and a new atheist in the US would be like. I'd be very interested.

A Surety: Before we made up god there were no theists.

I bet this kind of talk went on in ancient Rome.....realistic type non believers having to deal with the righteous god fearers.....Beware! Zeus and Hera are watching! :lol: ;)
I'll tell you what too.....Halloween ain't got nothin on Easter :eek: .....tortured mutilated dead guy comes back to life and floats around, giant 6 foot bunnies hiding colored eggs.... ;)

A belief in god subtly undermines everything that we value in humanity. Can integrity exist if god is always watching? Is altruism possible if all good deeds will be rewarded? Are you really moral if punishment of a Higher Power is what keeps you from doing whatever you think you can get away with?

What's easy is pretending that Big Babysitter in the Sky doesn't exist for a while so you can engage in a amoral lifestyle of hedonism and violence... and then repent once it sickens you and tell everyone how you're a "former atheist".

What's hard is, knowing there will be no punishment for wrong doing, still doing the Right Thing because of whatever reality-based ethical system you've cobbled together for yourself. Actually, just deciding what's important enough to use as a cornerstone for your morality can be pretty hard.

Not believing is easy. Replacing belief with something real is hard.

My idea of athiesm, or nihilism, and what I think it boils down to
 

I am an "out" athiest, also a nihilist of sorts. I'm not sure my take on nihilism is original, but I am a nihilist who sees nihilism as necessitating (paradoxically, I guess) a value or moral.
If all belief is unbased in absolute Truth, all beliefs are equally acceptable and valid. So with no Truth to be had, everyone may decide on their own what values and beliefs are True (or at least true for them). That is, nihilism destroys all basis for institutionalized belief, but leaves a clean slate and even playing field for each to choose one's own. (That's not the moral yet, just how I see nihilism and athiesm universally applied).

That said, this is the moral: with no absolute basis for validating personal beliefs and morals, each person should pursue their beliefs in a way that impedes as little as possible others trying to do the same thing. Mine is no better than yours, and yours is no better than mine, so if it doesn't help, it shouldn't hurt.

This sense of not hindering others should extend into all sorts of fields. Excessive consumption of resources by one impedes those who lack those resources, oil, food, water, land, everything. Institutionalized religion that forces itself upon others, preaches blind faith and indoctrinates youth before they have an opportunity to develop their own beliefs. Murder, intimidation, coercian (sp?). And beyond, to carry it even further, wonton waste of our natural resources hinders the generations of the future from pursuing their beliefs.

Waddaya think?




**I'm floating on sunshine. :thumbsup:

(GOOD LORD) Yet another who sounds like they're sane! Thanks, fishhead91

I have been reading a particular website called This I Believe based on the NPR Edward R Murrow series of the 50s.

I stumbled upon this Penn Jillette essay which you can go to the website and listen to him read it. I'm in agreement with him, yet for some reason I still believe that there is some higher power beyond my understanding.

This Penn Jillette... it sounds like he has a buddha inside him.

Well, I don't really consider myself Atheist as well. Altho I suppose it fits me a liiiiittle better than agnostic.

See, me, I just dont give a crap.

There isn't enough hours in a day for me to concern myself with such trivial things.

Trivial? but Shauk, this is the question of the ages! How are we supposed to understand our origin if we don't discuss religion?!

Well, its simple to me. I didn't believe in any higher power when I was born, I also didn't believe in Santa Claus, or the Easter Bunny, or the Tooth Fairy. These were all characters and concepts imparted upon me by my parents, who had it imparted on them from thiers, and as such, are little figments of society. Society also thinks of garbage every single day, this stuff is processed and digested every day from minds to mouths, from writing to tv. We are our own self fulfilling little prophecies.

I dunno, I don't care about the origin, nor the destination, nor having a reason to make the journey, none of that has ever, nor will ever, make me tick, its not why I put my pants on in the morning. I dont need to try and validate my existance, nor cry myself to sleep not knowing who or what was behind the grand combination of events that got me here. The journey is all that matters to me. I know my time is limited, I cherish my interactions with people beliefs or not, good and bad. because its part of the journey. whether or not I accept or reject you as a human being I wish to associate with, I still respect you as a member of the Human Race. Nothing more, nothing less. Unfortunatley, with 6 billion or more people I wont meet, nor agree with all of them, all the same, its no reason for me to have a deity, or kill in the name of one.

My mother, as religious as she was, turned me away from the path of religion without realizing it by teaching me that for every answer given, there is another question to be had, to never stop asking questions until I was satisfied that I knew what there was to be known about any given subject

but if you take religion and apply this, I'm given 100 different accounts, pointed to 100 different religions and always met with a dead end at the questions "well then where did God come from?"

I held on to this question for YEARS. then I took a simple history class. an 8th grade history class. In covering civilizations, from aztecs, the romans, the vikings, the mongolian empire, i began to realize they all had dieties, and not that THIS part matters, but often, thier deities became scapegoats or justifications for wars.

I started firmly believing that if the world stopped participating in religion, they'd probably stop being a warlike race of life. Humans, and only humans, worship dieties, and humans only have wars.


now, churches aren't totally evil, we know this, they start with thier good intentions, they impart good intentions, but people get visibly LIVID when you put down thier deity of choice, even in this day and age, its spurs them into ANGER, a primitive emotion, and its like honestly? why fucking bother participating in having such beliefs if it is prone to make you act less civilized as a human being?

honestly, we should have stopped being fucking Neanderthals ages ago. Now people are just Neanderthals with AK-47's and Carbine rifles who yell HOO HAA
or whatever.

I dont care who claims atheism as a trendy whatever, its a common sense thing to turn your back on such an outmoded and disproven belief system.

so, fuck pride, fuck religion, fuck segregation. If we all want to be members of the human race we should just stop trying so hard to be unique in contested areas.

how so utterly utopian of me.

furthermore, to not believe in a Higher Power doesn't instantly make you without moral value. You can still have a very high respect for human life. Have good manners, tastes in the arts, and not be disloyal, or a thief for example.

I flew in the face
of a certain disaster
and it laughed at me.

What's the last widespread war you can name caused as a direct result of religious differences? I was just wondering, since you believe that religion causes wars.

When I think of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit I see:

Mr. Wizard, Bill Nye the Science Guy, and Angus MacGyver.

Does that make me an atheist?

That makes you pragmatist or a realist.

Angus....hehehehe...

I thought it would be more like a product of commercial television...

I think the recent zeitgeist surrounding atheism is interesting. I have been thinking about it a bit more and I think that while it has been a quiet movement that pretty much (with few exceptions) stayed under the radar it has bubbled to the surface because of a number of recent events. But the one most important event was the President's intervention in the case of Terri Shaivo.

I think that act drew a line in the sand and many atheists (and also many theists) sat up and took note. I believe that many of us are not willing to sit by and let the theists dictate policy and determine the course of western society.

Practice what you wish but leave me and mine out of it.

I feel that we are headed for an all out confrontation between those that want a secular state and those who would rather take their direction from a supernatural source. The theists want the power back that they lost after the age of enlightenment and reason.