Willravel

Ustwo is a dentist. Together, we practically make a doctor.

filtherton

You guys should have a t.v. show- young, fairly liberal nonprofit exec and his older, conservative swinger orthodontist. There would have to be some super contrived reason for you to be stuck living together. Each episode would end with you making some remark about the effectiveness of universal healthcare or the validity of global warming followed by ustwo slowly shaking his head and tsk-ing at you while looking into the camera and shrugging, like, "whattami gonna do with this guy?"

I'd watch it.

Willravel

Fairly liberal?!

Still, I'd watch it too.

Baraka_Guru

The ages won't matter. It's all about it starring Sean Connery and Hugo Weaving.

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Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Ustwo

Actually on a side note, Einstein was at best a theist, and was berated by Christian groups for his apparent atheism. We really have nothing in the language to express the mystery and vastness of the universe without using 'god' quite a bit. He used the language but I think he was in fact an atheist.

If wills mother is hot, I have a reason

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Willravel

YOU THINK I LIVE WITH MY MOTHER?!

Ustwo

You don't?

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Willravel

Um, no... not since I was 17.

Ustwo

Willy baby, you gotta work with it man. Just like a book is just a book and it shouldn't affect the movie baby, reality is just a pishposh, you need to see it for the vision it could be.

It would be like all in the family, I'd be Archy, only with two advanced degrees, and Edith would be your hot sex crazed mom, you would be Meathead only with, well you would be Meathead, and you would be dating this hot republican mayors aid baby, its gold I say gold!

And with the writers strike, we could most likely sell it.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

asaris

Roachboy, I think, oversimplifies Kierkegaard. It's true that he speaks of the leap of faith out of the realm where human reason governs. But it's not true that that leap is something sui generis. Human reason itself points to its own limitations, and points beyond itself towards God. So I'm not sure it's really arbitrary in the way Roachboy is using that term.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

roachboy

asaris---

i was thinking of "fear and trembling" because it seemed most relevant to the discussion...and that primarily because there is this argument concerning proof in the thread, which made me think of the abraham and isaac stories, the juxtaposition of radically opposed orders, their incommensurability---so i used arbitrariness in a sense conditioned that way, in the sense that faith is not amenable to proof (a transposing of the a&i stories) and so.

you refer more to the situation of a believer (or one who wants to believe)....i take "fear and trembling" as written from the aesthetic viewpoint, and so works at a distance with reference to that situation.

it was easier to make the point that way: but sure....as a synopsis of kierkegaard it was way simplified.

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a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle
spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear

it make you sick.

-kamau brathwaite

Infinite_Loser

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I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Ourcrazymodern?

Because you need a brain to have an ism,"a" comes before "_".

...no, really! God told me!

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

n0nsensical

Considering how little we actually know about the nature of the universe, I think it's a bit premature to start writing off the concept of God entirely. If the universe is a simulation, for instance, which might never be proven one way or the other by us peons, its creator would be God by definition. It's entirely conceivable that there IS a God and He isn't even aware of humanity's existence. Now if it were possible to simulate an entire universe one would also imagine the ability to find organizations of information within it as well, but what if life and the silly little electromagnetic signals some of it produces are just not what He's looking for? Maybe He's only looking at the stars, which would make us low-level noise.

Anyway I'm not a fan of the whole concept of categorizing people based on their vote for one of Theist, Atheist, Don't Know. I'm a lot more concerned with my personal spirituality. Trying to pigeonhole people's beliefs has been responsible for more than one pointless religious war, when will we learn?

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"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

Hain

God is an Engineer... I first heard that expression from my psychology professor. He had to get those unmotivated engineers motivated in the subject.

You have obviously thought out your philosophy. The question is have others thought it out or are they just part of the crowd.

I see Atheism's motives, however I will be an agnostic until I can limit the possibilities between: Loving God, Unloving God, Something Else, Nothing Else.

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Ustwo

I would think a quick glance into a pediatric cancer ward would eliminate 'loving god'.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Baraka_Guru

Come on, Ustwo. We all know God isn't a hands-on engineer... He's the First Mover.

Please refer to post #572.

__________________
Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing?
—Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön

Humankind cannot bear very much reality.
—From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

Willravel

Don't forget SIDS. Or the fact that most of the universe is open space and is the most uninhabitable environment known to man.

Hain

@ Ustwo:
Hence why I am agnostic. I know all those, "God doesn't make suffering" lalalas and some people are just tested more and I should count my blessings...

Maybe all those people are more bets God has with Satan. Wouldn't that be interesting: God is a compulsive gambler... Where would that leave other gambling addicts? Their addiction would be divine?

@ Baraka_Guru:
You bring up a point. I am an engineer in training, and I know that I have the vision for a machine. Then it takes an industrial engineer to rain on my vision and tell me it is over budget and reworks it. If God was an engineer, does he have degrees in both universal engineering and industrial engineering? Or who was God's IE?

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n0nsensical

I think people become atheists for the same reasons they follow any religion. Atheism is just a Godless religion. I'm sure the fact that it's in vogue has more than a little to do with it, but the God people have been screwing things up for so long it makes sense that there would be a reaction to them. That's Newton's Third Law in action. Do people think about it, to a certain extent yes. Probably more so for atheists than followers of some other religions, but religion doesn't generally fit into identifiable thought processes anyway, it's more a matter of innate belief. Which isn't necessarily bad, to believe something just because you do, but many followers extend their lack of thought process in their FAITH to their ACTIONS which is what causes the real problems.

__________________
"Prohibition will work great injury to the cause of temperance. It is a species of intemperance within itself, for it goes beyond the bounds of reason in that it attempts to control a man's appetite by legislation, and makes a crime out of things that are not crimes. A Prohibition law strikes a blow at the very principles upon which our government was founded." --Abraham Lincoln

Willravel

As an atheist, I must say the following:

Hey, Mit Romney, fuck you. Freedom does not require religion you bigoted moron. You know exactly jack shit about John Adams, and you know jack shit about freedom. Church DOES NOT BELONG in government. Look for a copy of "The God Delusion" in the mail.

Sincerely,
Someone who will always be smarter than you.

Plan9

Perhaps not smarter but certainly more viable as a President.

WillRavel For President: The New Dubya

WillRavel promises to bring you his love... and like the love of God, it is cold and remote.

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Whatever you can carry.

"You should not drink... and bake."

Ustwo

Come now will, you believe in your own unprovable theories

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Hain

Never read God Delusion... it is on the list though. Personally I am against any "scientific" or "logical" arguments that prove or disprove the existence of god(s).

A book that I did enjoy reading (as it doesn't go to prove or disprove anything, only explain why man created would have god):
The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind by Julian Jaynes
I actually bought this one. Jaynes starts off with a definition of what it means to be conscious and what roles consciousness actually plays. He then explains how the modern mind evolved from a non-conscious mind where each hemisphere of the brain was an independent processing unit that spoke to one another, hence why man heard the voice of God.

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Ustwo

While I find Dawkins to be perhaps the pinnacle of Ivory tower snob and a total asshole, I'd still recommend the God Delusion not for the 'logic' side of it, that was preaching to my internal choir, but the sections on why religion seems to be part of our make up. God or no god, its obvious there is something innate in why we are so susceptible to religion and I just sort of unthinkingly accepted it from a psychological standpoint when it was really an evolutionary question.

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

ays

it's funny to me how easy it is for people to rebel against God and then when consequences happen put all the blame on the "loving God." For instance, I heavily abuse drugs for weeks and then overdose resulting in ICU and near-death. "Why is God doing this to me? Why am I in so much pain?"

All of this pain and suffering is a result of human beings thinking we know what's best for ourselves. Things WERE perfect. When we start eating cheeseburgers instead of vegetables, staring into radioactive monitors instead of books, abusing our sexual organs, etc. etc. it makes you wonder why people are overweight, have brain tumors, and give birth to children with birth defects.

I try not to get caught in the details. Either the universe was created or it wasn't. If it was created, it was out of love because He had to GIVE something for us to be here. If we wasn't created, then this thread would have absolutely no meaning whatsoever. SO FUCK ALL YOU BITCHES RANDOM FUCKING THREAD YOU SUCKK!KKKK!K!K!K!K!K haha jk.

Hain

For a minute there Ays, I thought you were going to say "Things WERE perfect. But then Eve had to eat the apple..." And I would have hit my head into the table.

Just because the universe was created doesn't mean whatever did gives a damn... maybe they had nothing to do, maybe they didn't intend us to be this way, maybe they are watching something else, maybe we aren't actually experiencing the universe the way it truly is.

As children of God, we want to grow up and be big and strong like daddy, oh well. Hopefully we'll figure out how to end the suffering and misery that we experience beyond our choices. It is my opinion that little kids dying of cancer is not caused by any of those human choices.

So, why bother calling it God, Jehovah, Santa Claus or anything else when we'll never know? Only real universal rules: be able to live with your choices... and make sure others can, too. I didn't need God or the bible to let me figure out that one... OK, so I read Kant, but I had the idea before reading him...

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Willravel

You can get cancer from the sun. god supposedly created the sun. Good job, god. Those are not "consequences" of going against god's will, they are rather simple facts of life which some people are unable or unwilling to deal with.

It has nothing to do with perfection in creation, it has everything to do with continuing adaptation and simple reality.

Here, watch this:

Dr. Neil deGrasse Tyson, astrophysicist

Ustwo

I know him, thats the guy who killed Pluto

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Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

Yeah, that was pretty messed up. "Dwarf planet". Like the astronomical version of "is it in yet?"

Hain

That was good! I disagree with Tyson's assessment of the mouth. It obviously was a design feature---people have to stop talking in order to breath, eat, and drink...

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ays

Hey that was a pretty funny video! But anywhoo, to respond to your skin cancer and sun comment. Yes, the suns rays can give skin cancer, but ONLY because of a hole in the ozone caused by OUR pollution. Our skin excretes a large amount of toxins. These toxins in our diet combined with malnurished bodies that can't break down the sun's energy as well, combined with an increase in the sun's strength due to depleting ozone can cause cancer!

I'm sure in the beginning the sun didn't BURN. It was probably more a warm caress, but over time it gets corrupted by us just like everything else. In some countries the local water gives you cancer. I'm pretty sure it didn't used to, but after the nearby plants dump all their waste into the streams you can get the idea...

Iron is good for our bodies, but too much can also cause cancer!

The only adaptation going on here is trying to survive through our own mistakes.

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Hain

OK let's keep the global warming issue somewhere in Politics. And you don't know if the sun burned way back when. It may have been cooler back then, but tanning wasn't one of those things that aristocrats did to keep pale.

A few of your points are true, but there are still plenty of other craptacular things that happen to people regardless of choice: genetic disorders, mental insanity, meteorites, the moon wandering away...

If I was directly responsible for a meteorite striking us... I'll be damned. I think this town is in need for a good natural catastrophe... However I think flood is more fitting. Still, any choices I can make to have a meteorite fall on my head?

EDIT: Let me make this more realistic: Is there any simple choice I can make to have a meteor get its title upgraded to meteorite? Something shy of actually going out into space and riding the meteor down to Earth myself (yes with my cowboy hat on, giving out loud Yee-Haws in my space suit).

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Willravel

That's not actually true, and this is symptomatic of the curious nature of creationists: they make things up. People get skin cancer in areas of no ozone depletion. While it may or may not be more common because of depletion, skin cancer can happen through our virgin atmosphere without any assistance from man or machine. You see, while the atmosphere can sheild us from most UVA and UVB radiation, it's incapable of filtering all of it and there's no evidence that it ever has. UVA radiation isn't even absorbed by the OZONE layer.

My question is this: if you don't know something, are you able to not only make up the answer to fool others, but do you in fact fool yourself?

Ustwo

Pretty much everything you said was wrong, which makes it rather hard to have a discussion.

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The_Jazz

Actually it's caused skin cancer for thousands of years. The hole in the ozone has been almost exclusivly limited to an area over Antarctica, and ozone isn't the only ultraviolet (the wavelength that causes skin cancer) blocker in the atmosphere. There's evidence of skin cancers in dinosaurs, although nothing proven at the moment.

Yeah, this is pretty much nonsense. Our skin doesn't excrete "toxins" on a regular basis. Diet has virtually nothing to do with the occurrence fo skin cancer, and as I mentioned, the "depleted" ozone layer has little to do with skin cancer in, say, northern Europe.

You're sure? Sure you're wrong? 'Cause you are. If we go back to the "beginnning", the sun's rays were felt even stronger on earth (the strength off the earth is, for our purposes, a constant). Over the last few million years, the atmosphere has changed.

As far as "nearby plants dumping waste into streams", what does water pollution have to do with the depletion of the ozone layer? That kind of conclusion is laughable.

Sorry for the threadjack, but I can't leave this kind of stuff alone...

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Willravel

Maybe this is a good example of "Atheism's sudden rise". Upon hearing this, an informed theist would think, "Wow, that's totally wrong.", and there could be a moment of doubt. Doubt is really all it takes to allow someone an exit from religion.

ays

It's cool man, I'm just conversating like the rest of yall. it's when you people start bashing me, calling me a fool, and telling me that what I'm saying is wrong or false that it becomes a problem.

Unless any of you have absolute knowledge of everything then none of you can bash me like I'm some sort of idiot. Sorry to burst you guy's bubble, but EVERYTHING is purely speculation, and that includes whatever you, me, or anybody else says.

I'm just like all of you. I do my research and I make my conclusions based on my life and experiences. I'm not just making crap up for the fun of it. I believe whatever I'm saying has truth to it or is a likely possibility. Every day my views and perceptions of life change with my spiritual, mental, and physical growth. I'm just sharing what I think with the rest of you.

now, as far as responding to some of what The_Jazz said about the skin excreting toxins - http://www.doctoryourself.com/skin_care.html (first paragraph)

Your response to the ozone layer - Yes, maybe the hole is over antartica, but that doesn't mean the rest of it is not affected at all by the pollution.

About the sun in the Beginning. See, we're talking about two different beginnings. I'm guessing, that you're referring to the beginning of existance on an evolutional/big bangist viewpoint. In that case, yeah an explosion is pretty damn hot.

The Beginning I am talking about is the beginning of mankind that was created by God. In that case, I believe God sculpted the universe to show his magnificence. He put all the stars and constalations in place, the milky way, the sun, and planets. Then created the Earth, made the sky and the sea. He made the plants and animals... He wanted things to be beautiful. He put it all together so when Adam woke up and the beginning of humanity started, it was juuuuuuust right. You see, this is because He created out of LOVE.

That's why I believe the sun was probably more of a warm carress than a BURN. because a warm carress of the sun just feels so damn good. And God is all about feeling good.

And lastly, about my laughable conclusion. i wasn't talking about the polluted waters giving them skin cancer, just cancer. - http://chinaview.wordpress.com/2007/...ges-pay-price/

I wasn't writing some paper dude. I was just making conversation. I'm sorry if I offended anyone.

Holla!

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Hain

One ought not get offended at a knowledge based forum. Either one is right or one is wrong. One just likes to read those credible sources. Ones that draw the dots between skin excreting toxins... and that causing skin cancer from the sun.

And everything is not purely speculative as you make it out to be. Yes the universe is based off observations and we make models of it... but we have observations! We didn't speculate from a set of books written thousands of years ago that: the Earth was made 4000 years ago, that God exists and loves us, etc.

Couldn't we leave the global warming out of the thread?!?!? And we all ready know that the sun still gives you cancer even when there aren't those holes in the ozone. Where is the source that states that it is only because of the toxins our skin excretes from eating the cheeseburgers? I honestly want to read some good credible sources!

I imagined he was referring to the time shortly after the Earth formed and it was a hot chaotic toxic place for a Martian to take a vacation.

OT but on philosophy: Yes, the world is fucked; you don't need to find articles from China to tell us that. You can either set aside all assumptions about what the world and the universe are and look for the truth yourself, or you can believe in the feelings a set of books give you... Personally, I'll make my own journey.

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Willravel

If what you're saying is false, and we tell you it's false, we have a problem?
We have absolute knowledge that the OZONE layer does not block UVA rays, and UVA rays now are shown to also cause skin cancer in addition to UVB rays, which the OZONE filters most of but not all. These are scientific facts. There's no speculation at all about it.
You think that UVA and UVB rays don't move in a straight line? Sorry to burst your bubble, but other than being slightly pulled off course by the immense gravity of Earth or other massive celestial bodies , the rays of the sun travel in a straight line. If you're sunbathing in Miami, you're not getting sun from Antarctica.
Somehow I doubt the former inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah would agree. Also, the entire population of the earth at the time of Noah, minus a few people. Or the other countless people who had horrible deaths as a direct result of god's wrath, according to the bible.