politicophile

two characters

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

jorgelito

That was a very well written letter by Penn, though I do disagree.

I think the main problem in discussing matters of faith is the framework in which they are constructed. To me the issue is beautifully simplistic. There is no need to get heated or judgmental.

For starters, atheists/agnostics are asking for the impossible. They are demanding proof or sources or logic in defining or defending a position of faith or belief. I think that is impossible. By the very nature or definition of faith, that is an impossibility. That is why it is called faith. Scientific methodology or critical analysis is not useful here. I believe that is where the main hang up in these discussions get bogged down.

Whether or not one believes is an entirely personal experience and unique so of course people will be sensitive to discussions about their faith.

Politico, I admire your intellectual curiosity but I think you are over thinking and over complicating this particular issue. That is not to say don't debate but rather, I am suggesting you try an alternate approach instead.

For people of faith, they aren't really interested in being persuaded out of it. Maybe the occasional challenge will be seen as a "test of faith" but as a matter of definition, faith is belief without "proof". Pretty powerful stuff and actually admirable to me.

So what occurs in discussion like these is that non-believers attack the faith and try to use all sorts of logic, science etc in arguing against something that is very personal to individuals. The believers then feel attacked and respond accordingly. The non-believer are then left with the impression that the believers freaked out or overly sensitive etc. But what actually happens is that both sides are operating in two entirely different spheres. Debate then becomes impossible.

politicophile

two characters

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The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. ~John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

filtherton

I think faith is more about finding meaning than gaining knowledge. In this context, it is no more absurd than any other means of finding meaning.

It is not as if the scientific method points to any sort of objective rationale about where the universe comes from, what kind of purpose it might serve or how one ought to live. Science fails miserably at any attempts to explain any of the more existential questions a person might have. Science can't explain what consciousness is, where it begins or where it ends. Science can't explain why the universe exists, or even that it does exist (it depends on how rigorous you like your proof). Science alone can't tell you how to live beyond the bare essentials. These are all things that theism, or even agnostic spirituality, can provide.

Ourcrazymodern?

wtf is objective rationale without science? What consciousness has is what we're attempting to deal with, and: I don't remember where it started, though I remember being in the womb; I don't know where it'll end because it hasn't done so, yet.
"God is happy, sabu, he plays with us" -OOA

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT

tiger777

I think this is the problem with mankind in general. Everyone is so caught him in themselves, too ignorant to look beyond themselves, I feel this self-centeredness is our downfall. How is it a human being can attribute a success as if it's a reward by the hand of God himself? Likewise, how can one feel a hardship is a punishment from God? This level of ignorance really makes me sad because the root of this type of thinking, selfish thought, is what causes a lot of immoral acts. Why is it a person who is infected with cancer has the audacity to refuse God's existance based on this specific case alone. On the flip side, I see a lot of professional atheletes thanking God for putting them in a position to be where they are (aka I won the genetic lottery). Would they still be thanking God if they were born paralyzed? What about everybody else? Why is it that had this same exact individual not gotten cancer he would believe in God? The fact it's simply a misfortunate event that has been randomly caused as far as we know, until we figure out how to prevent it. It boggles my mind to think an individual can go on believing or disbelieving in God based on a few events in their lives, regardless of the significance. I implore everyone to put themselves in others' situations more often and truly think about other people instead of being so self-righteous, I think that would be a small step in making this world a better place.

Here's something to think about. If you were born in the Middle East there would be a high probability you would become Muslim, and would likely worship Allah. What makes your religion more special or more right when the reason you believe in it is due to the situation you were born in? Why don't you believe in Judaism, Christianity, the Catholic church, atheism etc. This question pertains to whatever your belief is now, put yourself in other situations, because that could very well be you. Isn't it atonishing everyone thinks their religion is right? How can they all be correct? I feel all of these various religions were created by man and that anyone who believes in them are simply following trained, illogical thought and part of it it's the environment they have grown up in. I feel fortunate I was raised in a environment where I've had the ability to seek out my own beliefs, albeit I was raised in a christian setting. Noone in my family has really forced their beliefs upon me, although they often drop their religious opinions in relation to things.

Think about this for a moment. If people were completely separated from society and raised their kids with the intent of never mentioning God or any religions how do you think they would turn out? Likewise, if you told them there was a giant unicorn in the sky that set forth rules and make a list of commandments to obey how would they know any better? It's possible they would figure out it was a farce, just as people eventually did about the greek mythologies, but it's also possible they would be fooled. Better yet, let's get a bit more tricky, let's create a being that isn't bound by shape or form so that it'll make a bit more sense to us that he has created this earth, and everything in it. Now we have a being inconceivable, that we fear, that we cannot question his existance, because we cannot comprehend his perfection. I'd say their chance of being fooled would be nearly 100%. Zeus didn't work, but they finally got it right this time. The history of man has influenced many of us today to flock towards a certain religion, but why do you believe what they wrote thousands of years ago? Put aside your ingrained beliefs for awhile no matter how deeply rooted they are in your very core and question everything you have come to believe, including your religion and everything that encompasses it. Only then will you truly be yourself and not a puppet, regardless of the conclusion you come to.

tecoyah

It would seem, according to most who are devout in their beliefs (regardless of which God they prefer).....That God has no faith in ME.

I am strangely OK with that.

Cynthetiq

I recently stumbled across this, and I believe the same things that Penn states, but I still have a belief in a higher power. I don't know if it is Allah, Yahweh, God, Shiva, Bob, or any other countless names. I just know that there is something that is greater than my understanding.

Yet everything else that Penn states is congruent.

Also, when I read what Penn writes, I tend to hear his voice in my head.

I enjoyed listening to him read his This I believe...

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