Sho Nuff

Interpreting the Bible strictly as the word of God

Romans 5:12-Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For until the law sin was in the world:but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

1. Does this mean God would have tolerated Adam's commission of any sin as long as he didnt eat the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and didnt know he was sinning?


2. What is the figure?



3. Who is to come?


Please support your interpretation with Bible verses. If you cant, please keep your response short.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Sage

Technically this should be in tilted philosophy.

#1- There was no sin before Adam ate the fruit, because there was no knowledge of good or evil. Adam and Eve acted totally pure, because they were. Eating the fruit gave them the knowledge that they were different from God, and so they were punished because they did something they weren't supposed to- the original sin of doing something God said not to do (eating the fruit).

#2,3- Jesus.

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Sho Nuff

"For until the law sin was in the world:but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

To me that says that sin existed in the world before the first law which was when God told Adam not to eat the fruit. The order to eat the fruit was the beginning of the law. So If sin existed before the law then Adam would have lived in a world of sin but not been held liable for it if he hadnt broken the first law.

So if thats the case then God could accept sin in mans life as long as he was ignorant of it.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Val_1

If there was no sin before Adam ate the fruit, then eating the fruit could not have been a sin. Anything they did after could have been a sin, but not eating the fruit itself since Adam did not know that to take a bite of the apple would be a sin since there he had no knowledge of sin until after it was eaten. Or am I missing something?

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I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day.

-Frank Sinatra

Randerolf

Concerning the OP, sin existed on earth before Adam. There was the rebelion of heaven by Lucifer where he was cast from heaven to be the prince and the power of the air.

Your friendly agnostic graduate of Trinity HS,
Randy

asaris

Well, first, God couldn't be ignorant of sin, since he's omniscient.

In any case, the law spoken of in this verse is pretty clearly the law of Moses, the Torah, since Paul explicitly states that even though sin was not imputed until Moses, death still reigned.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Sho Nuff

So sin was around before the world was formed but it was not included in the plan for this world. God made the rule that if Adam disobeyed and ate the fruit of the tree sin would be brought into the world.

Fast forward a bit and God has decided to destroy the world and wants to save man before he does so he sends Himself to the world as his son Jesus to remove the sin from man so he can return to the realm of God in heaven.

I assume this means that sin is not allowed in heaven. The only sin I know of that took place in heaven was Lucifers disobediance. What did Lucifer do? Where is that in the Bible?

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Jozrael

Asaris - he meant man was ignorant of the sin.

The only sin that Adam possibly could have committed prior to eating the fruit was just that - eating the fruit (and also of the Tree of Life, since he was told not to eat that as well. He didn't, thankfully, so we're all still mortal. *Whew*).

That was the only law that had been set down, so it was the only sin that could be committed. Anything else would not only be unintentional - it wouldn't technically be wrong, because God had not forbid it and thus Adam couldn't possibly have known (all he knows at this point is what God's told him).

Once he eats the fruit, he gains his conscience, and thus the ability to sin (going against that innate conscience).

Sho Nuff: Lucifer let his pride get in the way and thought he was God's equal, when confronted he tried to lead his army of angels (1/3 of the total) against God's, lost, and was cast down.

Also, the only time God decided to destroy the world was during the Great Flood, not with the coming of Jesus - that was to save us from sin, not to destroy evil or the world or anything.

I suppose I can look up specific passages from the Bible online if you wish, since I failed to bring my to college with me (not a practicing Christian). But I have a fairly decent grasp of some of the precepts (though don't get me wrong, there are far more Christians, atheists, and who knows what with worlds more info than I).

frogza

Isaiah 14:12-17 and Revelation 12:4

Johnny Rotten

It occurs to me that Lucifer's sin did not occur on Earth -- that he was just placed there after committing a sin in Heaven. Maybe I'm just splitting hairs here.

Ourcrazymodern?

Why ask why regarding the word of god? Can it possibly shed any light?
Splitting hairs does!

dd3953

i don't think there was any sin but eating from the tree. that was the only thing God told them not to do, meaning it was the only sin, & they did it anyway.

"For until the law sin was in the world:but sin is not imputed when there is no law."

& i'm not sure if it can be a sin if you don't know you are sinning, somewhere it talks about for those who don't know God or His word, they will be judged by their conscious.


my Bible (NIV) reads "Nevertheless, death reigned from the time of Adam to the time of Moses, even over those who did not sin by breaking a command, as did Adam*, who was a pattern of the one to come" Romans 6:14.

I think that Adam was the pattern, because many who came after are following in his "footprints," adding to the pattern by breaking a command. so I guess Adam is the figure and we are the "one" to come.

someone else said 2&3 is Jesus . . . . i can't see that just because Jesus did not follow or fit into a pattern, He made His own . . .

*i think it's interesting it says Adam, but nothing about Eve, who helped cause Adam to sin.

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[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

Jozrael

Well, the Bible is heavily male-centric. Where did you hear that people would be judged by their conscious?

Pip

Interpreting the Bible strictly as the word of God

Strictly speaking, Romans is the word of Paul. :P

Romans 5:12-Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin: and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: For until the law sin was in the world:but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

The "subtitle" of this passage should clue you in. "Death through Adam, life through Christ."

Also, Paul goes on to explain. Romans 5:15-But the gift is not like the trespass. For if the many died by the trespass of the one man, how much more did God's grace and the gift that came by the grace of the one man, Jesus Christ, overflow to the many! 16Again, the gift of God is not like the result of the one man's sin: The judgment followed one sin and brought condemnation, but the gift followed many trespasses and brought justification. 17For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God's abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. 18Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. (NIV)

Adam brought death to man by eating the fruit of knowledge, Jesus brought Grace to man by dying on the cross.

1. Does this mean God would have tolerated Adam's commission of any sin as long as he didnt eat the fruit of the tree of the knowlege of good and evil and didn't know he was sinning?

Like others have said, he wouldn't have sinned because there was only one law: Don't eat that fruit! Also, before he ate of the fruit he was probably not able to even imagine or consider any action that we today would consider a sin, like, say, sodomising the sheep or murdering Eve.

2. What is the figure? 3. Who is to come?

Jesus. Adam doomed us, Jesus saved us.

Look at Ephesians 2:

1As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. 3All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath. 4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. (NIV)

"Dead" is to be understood metaphorically, as spiritually dead. Jesus and Grace made us alive again through Grace. Note that Grace (and faith) is a gift from God, given freely and unconditionally, and not something you can earn by doing good deeds.

/Atheist born (well, actually not, there's a funny story here) and raised who has just been through a crash-course in Reformed theology. Still atheist.

dd3953

i was at a Bible study. i can't remember where it is or how it is said, but it makes complete sense to me. God so loved the world, so why would he punish a large number of people just because He didn't make His word available to them, you know? people have a good sense of right and wrong, even before they pick up the Bible, so it only makes sense to me that that is how it would work if you didn't have a Bible.

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[Technically, I'm not possible, I'm made of exceptions. ]

Sho Nuff

How can you say sin was not imputed until Moses if Adam and all mankind fell from grace for breaking the law? Gods words to Adam were the first law, not the commandments of Moses.







From what we see of Adam's personality I think he would have considered all of it. Adam was easily persuaded to do anything because he had the mind of a child. He didnt have enough experiences to have a morality independent of a parents law and he was nieve about the world around him and easily manipulated.

Just like any other child, Adam would have commited many sins and just like any father God couldnt rightfully punish him for doing something he wasnt told not to do.

Sin was in the world before Adam and all around Adam. Sodomy and murder were options. Greed, wrath, envy, gluttony all of that was in the world. Adam wouldnt have been punished for any of those if he hadnt gained the knowledge of good and evil and subsuquently the rest law. That isnt to say God wouldnt have taught Adam those laws later.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

asaris

It just my interpretation of the passage. It might be interesting to think about it, but it's probably not really important at this point. The main point of Paul in bringing up the Law is usually to show how it created a consciousness of sin, and perhaps even more, of humankind's failure to live up to divine standards.

You keep saying Adam had the mind of a child. Care to explain why you think that?

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Sho Nuff

Adam was told not to eat of the tree or he would die so he didnt. His woman brought the fruit to him so he ate it. There isnt even a record of a difficult persuasion. Adam didnt have enough of his own morality or allegiance to God to resist the peer pressure. Then when he realized he was naked and heard God coming he irrationally hid himself.

Adam lacked the personal resolve to resist temptation, didnt fully consider the consequences of his actions and irrationally reacted to God's approach. All childlike qualities.

I don’t intend to cast Adam in a negative light because of that though. Adam was created and lived in a world of complete leisure and wasnt challenged to form his own morality and resolve.

Perhaps God wanted Adam to remain simple in live in leisure, but the curiosity of a child without a well developed sense of morality formed by experiencing consequences will surely lead to a fall.

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I know Nietzsche doesnt rhyme with peachy, but you sound like a pretentious prick when you correct me.

Ourcrazymodern?

I must ask you again, Sho Nuff. Why ask why? Except for science it's all fantasies and fairy tales. I wonder which title for the thing you prefer?
There was certainly no Adam, there was certainly no apple. There are those who claim to have found Eve by tracing mitochondria.
WHOA! It's a miracle, one might think, but a sperm's mitochondria are all shed once it penetrates the egg. Come back?

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BE JUST AND FEAR NOT