cj2112

(just to clarify, Kelsie is my 12 y.o. daughter, Cj is my 10 y.o. son)

So a couple of years ago Donald (yes that's his real name, and i'm not gonna change it to protect the little prick) had a crush on Kelsie. Donald behaved like the little shit he is, so Kelsie blew him off. This resulted in both Kelsie and Cj enduring several months of both verbal and physical abuse from Donald. I approached the school about this on several occasions and finally got the problem solved (or so I thought). Donald is one grade ahead of Kelsie, and moved on to middle school last year. It's the first day of school here today. Kelsie started middle school today, and the verbal abuse started the minute she got on the bus, and by lunch had escalated into him trying to trip her in the hall.

I have instructed Kelsie, just as I did last time this was an issue, to not react to him in any way, to not even acknowledge his existence. My reasoning for this is simple. If he is going to attack her, I want to be able to show that these attacks are completely unprovoked and that the kid is just an asshole. I have already spoken w/ the assistant principal about this, and about some of the history that has already taken place.

This time the school will take action and solve this problem, or I WILL go to the school board with it. I will not allow this to escalate to the point where the kid uses a weapon against her, like he did with Cj in elementary school (he was about 5 feet away from Cj and kicked a ball at him full force, hard enough to knock Cj down). If the kid physically assaults Kelsie again, I will call his parents myself. If that doesn't solve it, then I will get the police involved.

Can ya tell I'm about to let Cj kick the kids ass?

shakran

lemme give you a little education about the education system. The system is set up in such a way that the bullies are not punished, but your kid is. When I was in school I used to have kids attack me all the time. Assuming we were caught fighting we'd both get suspended even if it was obvious that the other kid started it. This sucked for me because I actually wanted to learn, and was great for the reprobate that attacked me because he got a few days vacation from school. Took me awhile but I finally figured this out

The school isn't going to do anything to help your kid. If they do attempt to help your kid, they'll either botch it or it'll backfire. If the school goes up to this Donald kid and tells him to leave your kid alone, that's just the red flag. Donald will go after your kid every time he thinks he can get away with it.

The tough lesson I learned at school is that I was in a no win situation, so I had a choice: Be in a no win situation AND go home with bruises every day, or be in a no win situation without any more physical harm. In other words, I beat the holy hell out of the next jackass that attacked me, and got suspended. But it was my last time, because the kids figured out that if they wanted to get their free vacation from school from me, they were gonna have to spend a good part of it recovering from what I did to them.

What I'm saying in a roundabout way is, make sure your kid knows HOW to fight, and then tell her that she has the right to defend herself. Make sure she understands that the consequences will be severe if she starts anything, but that she doesn't have to take being attacked AT ALL.

healer

Oh yeah.

Just last night I was at mandy's house when her baby sister Caryn (age 10 or 11) came in and told us about how she had an incident with a girl at school - Lisa van Skarwyken. Apparently she was saying goodbye to Lisa but forgot her surname and ended up saying "Goodbye, Lisa van something", to which Lisa replied "I'll get you tomorrow ".

The following day Lisa got hold of her before school started and proceeded to pull on her tie and throw her into a wall and all sorts of other crap. Now Caryn's a really sweet kid who wouldn't hurt a fly, so she didn't fight back. She did say that she defended herself though.

What struck me was the comments made by her parents after she had finished telling us about her ordeal. Her mom said to fight back, to trip or hit her back next time she had the chance. I'm not sure whether it was meant as a joke or not. Her dad OTOH, said to ignore her and not to do anything. When asked if she told her teacher about the incident, she said that she wasn't a tattle-tail.

The point of my story? I have no idea. I have no answers or advice to give. I didn't know what to tell her to do. My gut tells me that the school needs to intervene in some way - but not if it's going to cause more problems for the child already being bullied.

__________________

ngdawg

My son has been bullied one way or another since grade 1, usually from the same 3 or 4 kids. In 5th grade, he 'snapped' and beat one of the kids over the head with his full lunch bag. A teacher pulled him off and I was called into the principal's office. Mind you, the harassment had gone on for almost 5 years-NOW I get called in. The principal, in politically correct terms, felt Daniel was in the right, but expressed deep concern for his mental wellbeing.
Sixth grade: Daniel and a friend were walking home from school(now middle school) and was ambushed by two kids who knocked him down and kicked and punched him. One of these kids was an elementary school tormenter.
I called the boy's house, told his father 'your son BEAT my kid' and then, with Daniel in the car, went to their house. The father called the boy outside and I reamed his ass for a good 15 minutes-by the time I was done that kid was 6 inches high and cowering. The father didn't say a word. (I'm pretty proud of myself-not ONE curse word). I then went to the second kid's house and reamed HIS ass too, then called his mother.
I then called the school and told the asst. vice principal the whole story, including that there were witnesses and their names. The boys were put into in-school suspension and when the one was asked why, he bragged "I beat Daniel".
Here's the cool part: A boy who was also a classmate/bully in elementary school went up to this twit and told him very matter of factly "If you EVER lay a hand on Daniel again, I will kick your ass".
Take matters into your own hands. The schools do shit. Tell those parents that in no uncertain terms that the harassment will stop. Also instruct your daughter not to totally ignore, but turn around just once and very loudly yell in his face 'LEAVE ME ALONE'. And do it every time he tries anything. It brings witnesses, including teachers. It also empowers her, very very important. Trying to ignore still makes you shake inside, giving the tormenter power they simply don't deserve. I know. I was a victim of bullying all my school life.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

cj2112

Here is the deal. I need Kelsie to paint herself as an absolutely innocent victim (which in this particular case, she is). The schools policy says that the student is to immediately inform a staff member I plan to escalate this beyond the school very rapidly. I am asking her to toe the line very carefully, so that if I do have to escalate this to a higher authority, like the police or the courts, the charges that I'm making will stick. I think you are right that I should probably advise Kelsie to loudly tell him to leave her alone, but nothing further.

Bill O'Rights

Or...


There's always some hooligan that's just a little bit bigger than the bully. Chances are...he wouldn't mind earning a quick 20 bucks.

If...you get my drift.


I'm kidding, I'm kidding....

barely

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

ngdawg

By doing so, she gets witnesses and shows who is doing what. Once she yells 'LEAVE ME ALONE', she can then walk off, leaving the moron standing there and the first time she does it, I'm sure he'll be dumbfounded. He's victimizing her because he can. And rest assured, there's been witnessed harassment before, but no one ever wants to say anything for any number of dumb reasons. Her yelling that brings it out in the open in addition to giving her power and that is what she needs-power. She's not going to get it playing the helpless victim, nor is she going to get any back-up from the authorities because they are going to ask, 'well, what did she do to prevent it?'....you really want the answer to be 'nothing'?

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

Lady Sage

I was the fat smart kid in school... is there a deadlier combo?

I came home crying nearly every day for 2 years until my saintly mother went to school and told the principal that next time she had told me to fight back and he best not say a word because he had had his chance. To my suprise he looked at my mother and said "Its about time".

The next day a girl threw my chubby butt into a chalk board because I got a better score than she. I pulled back a fist and she called for the teacher. It would seem that my fabulous principal had had a chat with the teachers as well as he looked her dead in the face and said "So what if she does".

I never threw the punch, word travelled fast and no one messed with me anymore. Of course this was back when we (how did that one person put it) studied by the light of dinosaur dung.

Willravel

I had a problem with a bully once. I am now a father, earn over $100k a year, have a sense of self confidence, and am happy. Last time I checked, the bully packs meat for minimum wage (not in a gay way, in an unsuccessful way).

For now, don't wait. GO STRAIGHT TO THE PARENTS. Give them the, "I'd hate to have my lawyers get involved in something that we can simply solve here and now', speech. If that doesn't work (and I don't know why it wouldn't) either seek legal action against the parents, or seek legal action against the parents and the school. I don't understand how children are legally obligated to attend schools that can't even provide a safe environment.

If you don't have the financial means to seek legal action, then alternatives do exist.

SirLance

1. Have Kelsie keep a journal of all abuse and harrasment from Donald. Dates, names of people present, description of the incident. Have her write down what she remembers of what has already transpired, with dates, witnesses present, and descriptions of what the little shit did.

She should also document what she did in response, and how he reacted.

2. When you have 5 or so documented, make a photocopy of the journal, and arrange a meeting at school with the bully's parents. Describe the abuse and the history. Tell them that you are loathe to have a confrontation, but the next incident will precipitate a call to police.

Document the meeting. Send a copy of the memo documenting the meeting to the principal, and to the president of the school board, and the state department of education.

See what happens.

__________________
DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

robot_parade

That is damned funny. :-)

On topic, I've never figured out the 'right' way to deal with a bully. nwdawg's suggestion sounds like an interesting one. I don't think just meekly ignoring it (by itself) will 'work' - the bully *knows* it is hurting the victim, and is getting of on that. There has to be some consequence for the bully.

ngdawg

When I was being bullied, my mom told me to just 'walk away'. That just made the bully more incensed and devious. My 9th grade yearbook was ruined because she took an entire page up insulting me, calling me names, etc. Yes, this went on the entire school year, yelling at me in the halls that she was going to 'kick my ass', calling me 'pizza face'; it was a nightmare and it didn't go away because I never confronted it. She knew I was too shy to stand my ground. And the school put us in the same classes! It's over 30 years later and I still have those painful memories.
The principal, a pansyass anyway, said he couldn't do anything unless she actually hit me. It's no different now-my son and his bullies got no intervention until they beat him.
No one has the right to do this to another, but if you don't stand your ground, you are giving them the right to do it. And if you only walk away, the fear is still there and that, as I said, is giving power to someone that just doesn't deserve it.
You don't have to be a bully back-my son hitting the kid over the head was wrong, but both I and the principal silently applauded his stance. But had the bullying been stopped as it was being done and noticed, it wouldn't have gotten to that point.

__________________
Don't blame me. I didn't vote for either of'em.

analog

1. Go to school with her and find him.
2. Kick him in the balls as hard as you can.

/kidding(?)

tecoyah

Meet with the school staff, and tell them you intend to have your child study Martial arts. Then inform them that if they cannot control a bully within the school environment, as is thier responsibility, they will have no recourse when Kelsie takes these matters into her own hands.

The_Dunedan

Sadly, I must concur with a number of other posters. Your daughter may be innocent, but that won't help her. Schools do not protect victimized students. Period. I should know; like several others, I was the victim of years of harassment because I was "the nerd" all the way up into high school. In my experiance and that of most other people I know who were in the same situation, going to the teacher/principal is the worst thing you/Kelsie can do: not only is she now a "snitch" in the eyes of the bully, but she's just made it clear to the bully that there are no immidiate negative consequences to his conduct. In addition, many ( most, in my experiance ) school administrators have neither the time nor the inclination to stop such a problem. School boards are even worse. If a student complains enough of such things, the school may try to label them as suffering from some kind of psychiatric disorder; that's what they did with my little sister. If they "decide" that her complaints are the result of mental illness, they'll drug her. Then, she'll be getting bullied every day AND forced to take psychoactive drugs.

The advice they invariably give, to walk away/not react/ignore the bully, is disastrous because it usually incenses the attacker.

In my experiance/opinion, the correct response is as follows:

1: When attacked, Kelsie says at the top of her lungs "LEAVE ME ALONE!"

2: If the bully doesn't listen, she plants her foot in his balls as hard as she can. Repeat as needed until he falls over.

3: Kick him in the face as hard as she can a time or twelve while he's down there.

Yes, she'll probably be suspended. But there is, I assume, a lengthy paper-trail establishing that she's been continually harassed and attacked over an extended period; this will be useful in establishing that she reacted in self-defense. And you can be damned sure that kid will leave her alone. Bullies understand only one language; force. They understand naked, vicious, implacable ferocity and nothing else. They cannot be begged with, reasoned with, or bribed: on the contrary, they LOVE seeing their victims squirm and beg, and bribery is even better. Having their balls swell up to the size of a pair of Granny Smith apples, however, tends to get their attention.

The_Jazz

I find it interesting that so many people here are advocating violence against a child. Clearly there's a problem here, but let's all pause for a second and remember that we're talking about kids here. Having Kelsie respond with violence to verbal taunts is a fantastically bad idea for any number of reasons, the foremost of which is that she's then guilty of assault and battery. Defending herself against violence is another story altogether, but the proper response to taunts is to either ignore them and get an adult involved or respond with ridicule for the bully and get an adult involved. Clearly Kelsie is doing the right thing by talking to her mother, and cj2112, you're doing the right thing by getting the school involved.

Bullies do their thing for any number of reason, including just because they can. cj2112, you could be entirely correct that this is misdirected attention because of a crush. It could also be because the kid has issues at home. The why's don't really matter so long as the bullying stops.

All kids are bullied at one time or another. I don't care who you are or how big or tough you are, you have been bullied at one point. My brother, who played offensive line for a D-I football program, spent 3 years of high school hiding from some of his classmates. We all know what it's like, and it's very easy for all of us to think back on what we wish we had done to our bullies. Unfortunately, what we wish we had done probably might not have solved the problem, and I find it difficult to believe that a 6th grade girl is going to have an easy time beating up a 7th grade boy unless there's a serious weight and height advantage going in.

So here's my advice: continue talking to both Kelsie and the school about what's going on. If the bullying (including verbal harrassment) continues, make sure the assistant principal knows it. Document everything and send him copies. Make sure he knows that you're ready to get an attorney involved. Talk to Donald's parents if you can figure out who they are and let them know what's going on. It is entirely possible that they're not aware of what their son is doing and will take immediate corrective action. It's also entirely possible that they don't care and won't do anything. If that happens, mention that you've been documenting everything and that your attorney will be contacting them.

We are all afraid of getting sued. You need to be ready to carry through with any threats that you make and have the documentation to back it up. I promise you that a judge who sees proof that a kid is a bully and that the school and parents are doing nothing about it will have no problem either giving a protective order or remanding the case to a jury trial. I have personal knowledge of at least 3 bullying cases in the past 2 years around the country that ended up with multi-million dollar judgements against the school boards.

The_Dunedan, I don't want to pick on you, but this is an assinine statement. Bullies are children and people. I don't know of any sane person that acts in a manner anything close to what you're describing. Bullies can certainly be reasoned with, although if someone is worked up to administer a beating, the likelyhood is pretty low. The reason may be "if you don't stop, I'll tell my mom" or it may be "if you don't stop, I'll pull the trigger". Bullies understand much more than just force; just because they're bullies doesn't make them idiots.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ratbastid

Yeah, that's sweet.

Last time I ran into my middle school bully, he was working the counter at Little Caesar's Pizza. I walked on AIR out of that place.

The_Dunedan

Bullies understand sanctions. The schools are usually unwilling or unable to provide them: Suspension is just a 5-day vacation after which they kick the shit out of you again, and a "good talking to" from the principal or "guidance counselor" is just a break from class after which they kick the shit out of you again. If the school cannot or will not supply the sanction, then the victim must. And since bullies are not known for listening to reason, that sanction must come in a form they will listen to; namely instant and irresistable violence. I spent 1-10th Grade getting beaten up and harassed on a daily basis; that stopped only after I very publically thrashed three of the kids who were responsible. Involving adults had only gotten me beaten up worse; the teachers and principal did jack shit to help me or any of the other dozen or so kids I knew who were in a similar situation.
As for involving the bullies' parents, that's fine...until the parent won't admit that their precious Tommy could do such a thing, or they expess approval because your child "must have done something to deserve it" or suchlike. Worse, sometimes you encounter parents who approve of their child's bullying, because your child is "a pussy" or a member of a racial minority.
As for the sanity of bullies, I happen to agree with you; no sane person acts that way. To deliberately and maliciously torment another human being who has done you no wrong is not the act of a sane person. In my opinion, it borders on sociopathy.
Bullies may be children and people, but they're children and people who physically attack and violate their victims, people who never did them harm. Such behavior should not be met with half-measures that do nothing to discourage it.

Bill O'Rights

Usually...I agree with your level headed aproaches to these situations.
Not this time, though.
I don't know what kind of "bullies" that you are familiar with, but the ones that I knew, and have run across raising my own daughter, more closely resemble the ones described by The_Dunedan. The only thing, and I do mean the only thing, that these kids understand, or respect, is a complete and total beatdown.

I wish that were not the case, but there it is. A lot of these kids are little better than animals.

Oh...and if there is one thing that school principles hate...it's negative attention leveled at their fifedoms. Most, not all, but most, are trying to sail through to a cushy district administrator's job. They want as few waves as possible. Promise as many waves as you can deliver, and then deliver. Police, attorneys, and local news media. (that last one is very effective.) But...you'd better have all your little ducky's in a row.

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

The_Jazz

My friend, I'm beginning to think you see the world through colored glasses. Not necessarily rose-colored but colored nonetheless.

Are you honestly going to tell us that you never bullied anyone at all? Not a younger sibling or classmate? It doesn't have to be to the extent of what Kelsie or even you yourself went through, but honestly you never picked on anyone at all? It's an unfortunate part of human nature that the weak sometimes have to suffer at the hands of the strong. Christianity, Islam and Buddhism all attempt to explain and/or correct this phenomenon in one way or another. Calling someone insane because they're bullying someone is a pretty inflamatory statement that just can't be backed up by facts.

If you're getting beaten up, responding in kind is absolutely the right response. I don't think that many people familiar with real world problems would argue with you should you defend yourself. Taunts and verbal harrassment, however, should never be met with violence. It's just not the way we behave in a civilized society. If that's the way you're going to response, I'll be the first to label you a sociopath.

Obviously I don't know the details of what happened to you beyond what you shared above, but I can tell you that you responded appropriately to their violence, but not to their taunts. Clearly the violence trumps the taunts, but it's a distinction that I want to make. Visiting violence upon someone because they hurt your feelings is completely unacceptable and should be punished. Defending yourself should never be punished.

Beating someone up is rarely the answer, especially if it's virtually impossible. The whole point of this thread is how to stop the harrassment. As I said before, a 6th grade girl is going to have the hard time kicking the ass of a 7th grade boy, so we can immediately eliminate your offered solution since it would most likely either result in an even worse beating for Kelsie or an immediate suspension since she'd have to start the fight to get the drop on him. If the system isn't working to protect your child, move up the line. Get an attorney involved. It's a pretty rare bully that would violate a court order to go after another child.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ShaniFaye

like my parents always told me, and yes I was harrassed by bullies (specific gang of 4 girls from 3rd-8th grade), let them throw the first punch, then you can retaliate ( back then the person that hit BACK actually wasnt disciplined lol, it was the instigator that got IN SCHOOL suspension)

I hate bullies with a passion whether its physical or verbal....specially verbal I abhor people that think (to steal little tipplers line from another thread) they own the truth.

Do you know what it does to a girls self esteem when the bullies are so powerful they can literally force and entire busload of people to sing "How much is that doggie in the window" when she gets on in the mornings and off in the afternoons.

I wish today was a society where you could still go off on a bully and not get in trouble for it.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

The_Dunedan

I agree wholeheartedly. I'm not talking about taunting; I'm talking about physical abuse. Taunting I left alone, and so should anyone.

Not if she plants her foot or knee in his crotch.

What world do you live in, and how can I get there? People violate court orders to bully people all the time; estranged husbands beat their wives, and yes, bullies do it too. I know, because one of 'em did it to me.

Yes, I am honestly going to tell you that. I had people whom I didn't care for, but I didn't attack them, call them obscene names, threaten them and their siblings in public, etc etc etc. I left them alone, because that's what reasonable people of whatever age do about people whom they don't like.

The_Jazz

BOR, I'm really surprised that this came from you. Usually your head is just as level as mine (wait, did I just call us both flatheads? ).

One of my businesses caters almost exclusively to kids in an athletic setting. We see at least our fair share of bullies along with a few other people's shares. Any kid that is a bully is a kid first. No bully thinks of himself as a "bad guy" or an "animal". They're usually just having fun at someone else's expense. There's nothing scarier as a business owner than seeing two 12-year olds all worked up holding epee's without masks on getting ready to start whipping on each other. Or seeing a 14-year old drop a 10-year old headfirst into a bucket of parts to get a laugh from his friends. Both of those kids were dealt with immediately and severely, and parents were immediately informed. We have a policy of taking immediate action, and any school should have the same policy. If they don't, they've opened themselves up to lots of lawsuits.

Believe me, I had my share of bullies growing up, and I spent probably a cumulative 20 hours locked in a locker my freshman year of high school. Those guys were absolute assholes, and one of them tried to run me down with his car a few years later. One of them was elected class president later, so my opinion wasn't necessarily shared by everyone and goes to show my point - being a bully is by definition a bad thing, but it doesn't make you an "animal" or mean that you only understand violence.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

ShaniFaye

Why is it hard to believe there are people in the world that dont bully? Im with Dunedan...there are lots of people I dont care for and dislike immensley but the closest I get to acknowleding their drivel is to express how assinine I might think it is.

__________________
I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!

The_Dunedan

Not even remotely. All this proves is that this kid was a popular asshole; most bullies are, in my experiance. One of the things that makes them feel they can bully people is that they frequently have loads of friends...who also make conveniant witnesses should they get hauled in.
"No, David didn't hit him...he was with all of us, right guys?" is the way it usually goes.

The_Jazz

I think that we need to agree on what we're calling "bullying" because I think that my definition may be broader than what you guys are using. In bullying, I include the "stop hitting yourself" game that younger brothers everywhere fear, especially when the victim hates it. Or teasing someone because of their clothes, hair, voice, ethnic group, walk, lack of athletic skills, etc., with the caveat that it's not done to a friend and to the person's face. In my experience, everyone is guilty of it at one point or another with the most likely time being under age 10. It's not limited to "attacking (victims), call[ing] them obscene names, threaten[ing] them and their siblings in public" by any means, although it most certainly includes that. Certainly having the crap beaten out of you because you're wearing the wrong colored shirt qualifies, but doesn't being called a "fag" without the accompanying beating?

I'm sure that it's possible to go through life without ever making yourself feel superior to someone by belittling them verbally or physically, but I think its very unusual. I'm around kids all the time, and I see it constantly. The key is to keep it as friendly as possible and to make sure that no one's feelings are hurt too badly. It doesn't happen every day in our program, but it certainly happens every week. It's a fencing program so we don't have any issues with physical bullying since everyone gets a chance to fence everyone else. As a coach/judge, I have to say that there's a statistically significant number of touches disallowed for kids we think are guilty of bullying, though.

Bullying has absolutely nothing to with friends. Having friends back them up may enable them, but it certainly doesn't cause bullying or even contribute to it. I have lots of friends and I'm not a bully. My brother has no friends, and he's one of the biggest bullies I've ever met, including the guys who stuffed me in lockers. You're missing my point - while you are busy condemning bullies as subhuman and deserving of immediate inpatient psyciatric care, I'm just stating the obvious point that kids with otherwise good characters are sometimes bullies. Bullying has little to do with who the victim is and much more to do with the self-esteem of the bully.

Adult bullying is a much different story since you have the added stress of sex. I don't know if I'd call a husband beating an estranged wife a case of "bullying". I'm not sure what label I'd give it, but I'm not comfortable lumping together a husband who beats his wife into a coma and a 5-year old who pushes another kid out of the sandbox.

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

analog

That's an example of a show of force, not reasoning. Telling mom is using authority to stop you, which is force. Using a gun is, obviously, force.

No, they don't. The act of bullying someone is to (at the minimum) establish dominance. You cannot reason with a person who feels they rightfully dominate you. Why would they give up that power? It's the same reason that most serial killers continue killing until they're caught, or until the express purpose for their killing (if there is one) is done. Killing makes them feel like God, it's the ultimate dominance. They don't just give that up.

If you can reason with a "bully", then you're not dealing with a "bully", you're just dealing with a kid who has a simple propensity for violence (doesn't understand "right from wrong"). They can be reasoned with simply because they need direction and to learn that's it's bad to hit people. This type of person, however, would most likely not target specific people, or continually focus their violence on one person.

The kid's just a bully, simple as that, and there is no reasoning with them. And yes, I have never bullied someone.

A bully who constantly harassed me and hit me all through 9th grade (just single hits, not beat up) finally got his due when I called him on his bullshit "force". I had previously tried to "reason" with him on many, many, many occasions. This time, he threw a tennis ball and it hit me hard in the back of the head. I walked up to him and his two friends laughing and said that if he ever touched me again, i'd put him on the ground. Thinking I was the same "step on me" analog, he hit me square in the chest, sucker-punch style. I laid him out with a hit to the face. Not only did he never touch me again, but he was the laughing stock of the school because he got laid out by the kid he bullied for almost a whole year, in one hit. His friends did nothing, they just stood there. I laughed at them and walked away.

The_Jazz

No, both are examples of reasoning. A show of force is telling mom or pulling the trigger. You are giving the bully options with repercussions, and he can choose to continue the bullying and call your bluff or stop.



That's my whole point about bullies being more than the unthinking wrecking machines that everyone in this thread seems hellbent on calling them and the reason that I'm calling bullshit on everyone who says that they've never bullied anyone. Bullying is a short-cut to power and status in a group (a group being 2 or more people). If you've never said anything mean to anyone or made sure your younger brother/sister/cousin/neighbor didn't pass you in the pecking order, then I apologize, but since we're all human animals, I think that we're all guilty of it to some degree or another. You may have never beaten up someone smaller and weaker than you, but I am sure that you asserted your dominance in other ways. That's just the way we're all wired.

I really don't get what you mean here. Are you really saying that anyone who can be reasoned out of a violent act has a propensity for violence or is this some sort of typo? I can't believe that you actually think that since it seems completely disconnected from the real world. Someone with a propensity for violence is going to be impossible to reason with and pursues violence for violence's sake. Somebody who can be reasoned with is a rational person. They may be a bully, but the two things are mutually exclusive. A rational bully realizes that you don't pick on the wierd kid who has a gun or that you don't beat up the kid who's dad just got out of prison for assaulting a police horse. Irrational, stupid or ignorant bullies might make those mistakes, but the rational ones wouldn't.

As far as your experience with your bully, I'd say you were complete justified in your response since you defended yourself after you were hit. Let me point out yet again that the original point of this thread was verbal harrassment with some physical abuse. Throughout this thread, there's been a kneejerk reaction calling for Kelsie to bring the smackdown on Donald, and all I'm saying is that there are better ways to handle it, especially since any sort of physical response to verbal abuse is assault, pure and simple. With that kind of response, Kelsie gives away the moral high ground and opens herself up to punishment. If he hits her, I'll happily be the one who pins his arms back while she knees him, but hitting someone because they made fun of you is never acceptable.

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Willravel

Sorry, analog, but the dictionary doesn't speak to the intellectual capabilities of a 'bully', so I have to side with The_Jazz on this one.

snowy

Here is the advice my father, a high school principal, gave me to deal with nuisance kids and bullies.

Step 1: Tell them to stop.
If they don't stop, move on to step 2.

Step 2: Inform an authority. Inform the authority that if they don't do something, and the kid doesn't stop, you'll take matters into your own hands.

If the teacher/principal/whatever proves to be ineffective in getting the kid to stop, move on to step 3.

Step 3: Punch them. Right in the face. Square in the nose.

Document the first two steps.

The fact is, bullies don't stop until you speak to them in their language.

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fresnelly

As demonstrated in some of the stories above, there is a place for physical retaliation, but you have to realize that it also can also dangerously escalate the situation.

In the movies, a single glorious punch always finishes the job. But in real life, maybe the bully comes back the next day with three of his buddies. Or a knife. Or a gun.

In Kelsie's case I think Ngdawg's approach, combined with meticulous documentation and ongoing communication to the faculty is the best one.

Never consider violence naively or romantically.

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cj2112

Are some of you guys seriously suggesting that my very petite (63 lb) 12 y.o. daughter attempt to try to kick about a 3 sq inch target on a 14 y.o. boy that is almost twice her size (literally)? While it is true, that if she connects, that it will likely put him to the ground, however if she doesn't she then has placed herself in a very dangerous situation.

As usual ng has advice that is spot on, and as such I have used it. The assistant principal of the school also seems (i hope) to have gotten through to this kid. Time will tell, but he has not spoken to her at all since he met w/ the assistant principal.

analog

.....huh? I never said anything about their intellectual capabilities. "Bullies don't understand anything else but a show of force" does not mean they're mentally deficient, and I never said so. Perhaps I could have said, "Bullies don't respond to anything but..." instead, but I figured the colloquial (rather than literal) use of "bullies don't understand" would have been obvious, given the context in the conversation we're having. What I said is in the very definition you quoted, "...badgers and intimidates smaller or weaker people."

That's EXACTLY what I just said about it being about dominance.

Also, let's not rely on one line from a freakin' dictionary to explain an entire psychological/behavioral phenomena.

Indeed, that's why I told you to go do it. lol

Ample

My daughter had a problem with a bully at school but it was a female. My ex went to the school and talked to someone on the admin staff. I don't know if they did anything to the bully, but later that week she started in on my daughter again. So my ex went to the girls house and told the mother if her daughter assulted my little one again that she would call the police and press charges. The bully got straighten out, cause she never said anything to my daughter again, ever.

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ngdawg

Glad I could help. Hope it works out well for your daughter.

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SirLance

It should also be noted that while Kelsie is at school, she is in their custody (in the legal sense) and they have an obligation to protect her. Perhaps they should be reminded of that...

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getwonk'd

My son had been bullied to the point of begging me to homeschool. Here is what I did to stop the bullying. I talked to a counselor outside of the school district. I was told that I needed to start with the teacher and follow the ladder up to school counselor, principle, superintendent if nothing was done. To me that seemed like a waste of time and would take too long to solve the situation. So, I went right to the principle, told him what was happening and told him I had already spoken to a lawyer. I told him I wanted it to stop NOW or I would be following up with further legal action. Needless to say, it was addressed that same day and the bullying has stopped. Bullying is taken quite seriously by schools because of the threat of the child taking matters into their own hands and basically taking the bully out permenantly or taking themself out permenantly. Talk to your child, be there for them and you need to be the one to take the active role and stop it NOW. Talking to the other childs parents is a waste of time. The kid learned it somewhere.

krwlz

I just want to point out that 6th grade girls, and just women in general, have some of the sharpest tongues seen on this planet. The kid is going to get no sympathy from just about anyone of he hits a younger girl. Even most of his normal co-conspiritors, so I doubt it will come to that.

Instead, Kelsie really needs to learn how to embarass him in front of people. It really does work wonders. At least, it always did for me, although as a guy it might be differant.

clavus

I was the smallest, most uncoordinated, and probably smartest kid in class. So I got bullied from Kindergarten through senior Year of high school. Most of the time I was afraid of the bullies. I ignored them and trembled inside, or I hid, or I avoided them.

There were a few times when I stopped bullies. Each time it involved me punching them in the face or gut. If I had the confidence to punch more of them, I would have been bullied a lot less.

Put me in the pro-punching camp.

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SirLance

I'm in the defend yourself if your physically attacked camp. Kids should be taught to defend themselves. Mine were. Of the three, one had to, one time.

You can always walk away, it's true, but sometimes they follow and will not stop short of a physical confrontation. A punch in the nose usually cures that pretty quick.

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