Zeraph

The shirt was white (or thought/conceived of as white and then made into existence as a white shirt) but then it was sold by the merchant/maker and the new owner dyed it green. Is the shirt white or green? It came into this world as white, the preconception of its existence was white, and if bleached it would return to its whiteness. But for the current owner it is green, he wanted it that way and acted accordingly to make it so. For the memory of the merchant/maker it will always remain white, white is its roots, it is how it came into existence.

Therefore the merchant/maker would likely call the shirt white, the shirt, if it could reason would likely call itself white, but the new owner considers it green. He wears it green, he likes it green, and he made it green. Its future is likely green, presupposing that the new owner does not change his mind it likely will remain green until it is faded or torn and is discarded ending its current life with the new owner.

But as it's fading and "dieing" it slowly returns to white and will likely come to its end either white or a very light green/white color. Again ask yourself what color it is--is it its original color white? Is it only what it currently is?--in which case it will constantly be changing, thereby remaking itself every moment it exists. But it is a shirt, it can't really redefine itself, it needs a sentient human to do so. Is it what it is from one moment to the next, past irrelevent? Or does the past make the future with a steady stream of contingencies that constantly creates the future?

So if the shirt is what it is from one moment to the next regardless of past then any change to the shirt happens from a force outside the shirt itself, the human or new owner. The new owner wanted it green and made it so. It became green because he made it green. So is it the same for humans? Do we act on ourselves or does it just appear that way?

If we suppose however, that the future is created from a steady stream of contingencies then what the shirt started out as is most important, because that color decides its future color(s). Yet the shirt isn't sentient and didn't act on itself. The merchant/maker decided on its color for it, then the new owner decided on another color. And finally decay (laws of the universe, time) "decided" on its final color. It would seem then, that each "decision" did not determine the next. The laws of the universe will act on everything by definition, the owner always liked green before he bought a white a shirt. The standard for white shirts was decided before the merchant/maker made a color that would sell to the widest amount of people.

So we take these 3 arbitrary colors: white, green, faded white/green/color of original material (wool) and apply meaning to them. But the shirt was not made this way nor did it decided what color it would be, nor did its previous color really decide what color it would be. It was white because humankind "decided" it as a standard color, it was then green because an individual liked green, it was then faded because the laws of the universe apply to everything.

The shirt itself seems to have no real existence if we define existence by exerting some will to change a system. I define it this way because existence must by definition be different than nothingness. We value making a difference, that has deep meaning that we rarely think of. If we are complete automatons and make no difference in a universe that was decided from the first atom's position in time and space, then we change nothing in an already dead environment. There is no novelty, there is no life in a dead universe filled with automatons. Therefore by life, we really mean the ability to change, to make a difference. Nothingness (not the word) has no meaning, no life. To change nothingness into existence we must add an ability to change, to create so there is no longer nothingness.

Getting back to the shirt, the shirt doesn't seem to exist outside of our influence. We make it green or white, the laws of the universe only exist (matter) because we have an ability to create, to change, without this there is nothingness. We are our own cause, existence precedes essence.

So for the shirt, does it matter what color it is? Does meaning exist regardless of what it is called and what it really is?


So what color is the shirt?

robbdn

Why does this seem to me like a Zen thought experiment? The color of the shirt is irrelevent, because there is no shirt. The colors do not change, because there is no time. There is only emptiness.

Seriously though...

But did the shirt make the human want to make it green? Think about it, how often do people react to inanimate objects? If the object never existed, the human never would have made it green.
Does this mean that the absense of will is nothingness? Existence is only different from nothingness because of a will? That doesn't really make sense, much like the notion of nothingness to begin with.
Do we make it green? Or do the laws of the universe make us make it green? Just as shirts exist to be worn, perhaps we exist to make things.
It is important to see things as they are. When looking at the shirt, see it as it is in this moment, for it is by living in each and every moment that we can glimpse immortality, and eternity. The shirt is what color it is at any given moment, and for you to see clearly, with all things shining, exactly what color it is in any given moment is to understand clearings of finite eternities in a spectrum of infinitude.

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I'm swimming in the digital residue of a media-drenched world. It's too cold.

asaris

I have the funny feeling you're trying to make an analogy, but I can't quite make out what it might be. But be that as it may, it seems like you're making a category mistake. "Green" or "white" isn't what the shirt is, it's what the shirt is like.

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"Die Deutschen meinen, daß die Kraft sich in Härte und Grausamkeit offenbaren müsse, sie unterwerfen sich dann gerne und mit Bewunderung:[...]. Daß es Kraft giebt in der Milde und Stille, das glauben sie nicht leicht."

"The Germans believe that power must reveal itself in hardness and cruelty and then submit themselves gladly and with admiration[...]. They do not believe readily that there is power in meekness and calm."

-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Ch'i

Very Zen. Just think about stuff like this for about 5 min. a day; they say medetation can raise your I.Q. An object or idea is often best described by it's contrary. Understanding what "nothingness" is leads you to an understanding of what reality is. Duality, however, is an illusion. Try to understand how the two work together as one. Usually the simple ideas are the most liberating.

Daniel_

The truth is that the shirt is red.

The shirt is red, because it has the potential to be red.

It can be bleached and re-dyed.

Everything manmade is red.

Except blackcurrant Jelly Babies - they're black.

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╔═════════════════════════════════════════╗
Overhead, the Albatross hangs motionless upon the air,
And deep beneath the rolling waves,
In labyrinths of Coral Caves,
The Echo of a distant time
Comes willowing across the sand;
And everthing is Green and Submarine
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Bittertalker

I always thought how the human eye sees colour is interesting in that when one see something green, in this case, every colour except green is absorbed. So that means green is reflected and what one see is green.

Ch'i

That's also what causes color-blindness. Instead of not absorbing one color, it fails to absorb some of the more subtle colors. In essence, color-blind people can see more color.

Cynthetiq

there is no color just like there is no spoon.

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Ch'i

Exactly; the truth is that we know nothing.