tecoyah

Interesting article on the likelyhood of visitation from E.T. and his Ilk.


http://www.space.com/searchforlife/e...ds_050114.html


ET Visitors: Scientists See High Likelihood
By Leonard David
Senior Space Writer
posted: 14 January 2005
06:47 am ET

Decades ago, it was physicist Enrico Fermi who pondered the issue of extraterrestrial civilizations with fellow theorists over lunch, generating the famous quip: "Where are they?" That question later became central to debates about the cosmological census count of other star folk and possible extraterrestrial (ET) visitors from afar.

Fermi’s brooding on the topic was later labeled "Fermi’s paradox". It is a well-traveled tale from the 1950’s when the scientist broached the subject in discussions with colleagues in Los Alamos, New Mexico. Thoughts regarding the probability of earthlike planets, the rise of highly advanced civilizations "out there", and interstellar travel -- these remain fodder for trying to respond to Fermi’s paradox even today.

Now a team of American scientists note that recent astrophysical discoveries suggest that we should find ourselves in the midst of one or more extraterrestrial civilizations. Moreover, they argue it is a mistake to reject all UFO reports since some evidence for the theoretically-predicted extraterrestrial visitors might just be found there.

The researchers make their proposal in the January/February 2005 issue of the Journal of the British Interplanetary Society (JBIS).

Curious situation

Pick up any good science magazine and you’re sure to see the latest in head-scratching ideas about superstring theory, wormholes, or the stretching of spacetime itself. Meanwhile, extrasolar planetary detection is on the verge of becoming mundane.

"We are in the curious situation today that our best modern physics and astrophysics theories predict that we should be experiencing extraterrestrial visitation, yet any possible evidence of such lurking in the UFO phenomenon is scoffed at within our scientific community," contends astrophysicist Bernard Haisch.

Haisch along with physicists James Deardorff, Bruce Maccabee and Harold Puthoff make their case in the JBIS article: "Inflation-Theory Implications for Extraterrestrial Visitation".

The scientists point to two key discoveries made by Australian astronomers and reported last year that there is a "galactic habitable zone" in our Milky Way Galaxy. And more importantly that Earth’s own star, the Sun, is relatively young in comparison to the average star in this zone -- by as much as a billion years.

Therefore, the researchers explain in their JBIS article that an average alien civilization would be far more advanced and have long since discovered Earth. Additionally, other research work on the supposition underlying the Big Bang -- known as the theory of inflation -- shores up the prospect, they advise, that our world is immersed in a much larger extraterrestrial civilization.

Point-to-point distances

Given billion-year advanced physics, might not buzzing around the galaxy be possible?

Even today superstring theory hypothesizes other dimensions... which could be habitable Universes adjacent to our own, the researchers speculate. It might even be possible to get around the speed of light limit by moving in and out of these dimensions.

"What we have done is somewhat of a breakthrough," Haisch told SPACE.com. "We have pulled together various recent discoveries and theoretical issues that collectively point to the strong probability that we should be in the midst of one or more huge extraterrestrial civilizations," he said.

Haisch said that superstring dimensions and wormhole and spacetime stretching possibilities address the "can't get here from there" objection often argued in view of the interstellar, point-to-point distances involved. Also, diffusion models predict that even a single civilization could spread across the Galaxy in a tiny fraction of the age of the Galaxy - even at sub-light speeds, he said.

ET signature in the data

Can the scientific community bring itself to consider any evidence coming from mysterious sightings of strange things by the public?

In large measure, the scientific community seemingly has eyed ET visitation as far from being serious stuff to cogitate over. Why so?

"The dismissal has several causes, all reinforcing each other," Haisch responded. "Most of
the observations are probably misinterpretations, delusions and hoaxes. I have seen people get confused by Venus or even Sirius when it is flashing colors low in the sky under the right conditions. Having been turned off by this, most scientists never bother to look any further, and so are simply blissfully ignorant that there may be more to it," he said.

Deardorff, the lead author of the JBIS article, points out in a press statement: "It would take some humility for the scientific community to suspend its judgment and take at least some of the high quality reports seriously enough to investigate…but I hope we can bring ourselves to do that."

According to Haisch, there is a motivation not just for scientific tolerance of the UFO issue, but a strong scientific prediction that there ought to be some genuine ET signature in the data.

"This potentially changes the relationship of the UFO phenomenon to science in a significant way. It takes away the ‘not invented here’ prejudice, pointing out that a ‘yes’ to ET visitation is exactly what side our current physics and astrophysics theories would come down on as the most likely situation," Haisch concluded.

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Willravel

That is very interesting. I never thought to combine those two thoughts. Alien life probably exists, and we may be seeing evidence right now of alien or extra terrestrial intelligence. The reason, as far as I can remember, why UFOs were discounted is because they were thought to be either experimental aircraft or the ravings of lunatics who wanted attention (thanks a lot, psychology), because it seemed too fantastic to be true. I would like to see a private (non-governmental) scientific group study this with an open mind. It is posssible that there is something to a lot of this "paranormal phenomenon". Too bad hollywood has trivialized extra terrestrials for a lot of people.

TexanAvenger

There's an interesting idea that never occured to me... I've always believed that there are extra-terrestrials, and that they would be farther advanced than us because of the age of our Sol in comparison to the rest of the galaxy, but the idea never really occured to me that we could be in the middle of a galactic civilization and not recognize the fact. If that were true, it'd probably be very humbling to know that we're probably nothing much more than a backwater planet to everything around us.

Now how does one explain the anal probes...? Is it some kind of billion-year anal fixation on the part of the extra-terrestrials, or just another crazy human thing?

zen_tom

There's one thing for life on a distant planet to evolve and achieve intelligence and even civilisation, possibly to leave its planet and populate the planets in the immediate vicinity, but it is something else entirely to traverse the vast gulfs of space, either using vast amounts of energy and resources to do so at speeds faster than light, or spending hundreds, or even thousands of years entombed in their flying saucers, with little hope of ever returning, for the sole purpose of buzzing Americans and putting probes up their anuses.

Willravel

zen_tom, consider humans for a moment. We have economies that thrive with a diverse range of goods that we trade, purchase, and sell. Assuming that a species of higher intelligence works the same way, I would assume interstelar trade is a reality, as the universe is likely diverse. We may simply be on a given trade route, or we may simply be something for their scientists to learn from. We may be a link to their past, as they were likely once at our level.

Imagine if we (humans) were given the opportunity to study a species that is evolving along the same path we evolved. It would give us insight to our past, and also to where we are going next.

zen_tom

Hold on - if interstellar travel is possible it is either
a) possible at speeds faster than light or
b) it is not
If b) is the case, then to travel from one star to the next would likely take generations, and no matter how exciting the scientific prospect, or lucrative the trade run, I can't see visitors coming over for any other reason than that they have nowhere else to go - which, considering the size of the universe is equally unlikely.

If a) if the case, it is still no small undertaking - and the energies involved would likely show up on our monitoring equipment - you can't just bend space without anyone noticing. If it is possible, then it can only be achieved by the most advanced of races, who would also have such an in-depth knowledge of the universe that they should be able to simply create anything imaginable making interstellar trade unnecessary.

TexanAvenger

Maybe you're giving us too much credit here... We're talking about them being something like a billion years farther ahead than us. And not necessarily just one race. For all we know they could use energies and methods we haven't even concieved of. And who's to say they're bending space? There're theories out there that are saying it's theoretically possible to pop in and out of this universe in order to travel great distances essentially instantaneously. We jumped from our first powered flight to a moon landing in sixty-six years, god knows where we'll be in a billion years.

As for the trade issue, I don't know that I really buy that. However, why wouldn't they go out and expore the galaxy and universe as they wish? Should they, with whatever technology they have, just stay at home and stagnate? I should hope that a billion years from now the human race isn't reduced to something like that. I would hope that we're still out there, in whatever from we are by then, moving, changing, learning about, and researching the universe around us.

hulk

Look at how far we've come in 50 years of space travel. A thousand, a million years more, it's conceivable that they would have figured out a way? In any case, scientists have accelerated light particles to, get this, faster than the speed of light. They left the specially made chamber before they entered, that's physics for you.

Anyways, there's been too much crazy shit around for it all to be crackpots, hm?

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zen_tom

Texan, how much credit should I give us or the aliens? They are either so technologically advanced to be able to pop themselves into or out of existance in the blink of an eye (without anyone noticing), but they are not yet advanced enough to be able to make simple artifacts/trade goods etc using replication devices and have an interest in what we do on our parochial little planet. Doesn't sound likely to me.

I do accept the potential for scientific curiosity getting these godlike creatures to come and have a cursory glance at what we're up to, but if they really are that advanced, we are going to be of very little interest to them.

So we need an alien race that's capable of faster-than-light travel, yet not quite advanced enough for the journey to be a complete waste of time. It's just a very very unlikely proposition - and, as the title of this thread suggests, if it were remotely likely it should have happened by now.

No they haven't - or if they have and I missed it, could you tell me more please?

There are always plenty of crackpots.

flstf

From the Speed of Light thread in the Knowledge Forum:

tecoyah

as requested

Faster than a speeding light wave
space
What chance of a faster-than-light starship?
By BBC News Online science editor Dr David Whitehouse

New experiments show that some things can travel faster than the speed of light.

But the Universe always manages to ensure that we can never use the effect for anything useful, like building a faster-than-light starship or travelling back in time.

It is a fundamental law of physics, a fact that is built into the architecture of the Universe and taught to every student, that nothing can travel faster than light which is roughly 300,000 km a second (186,000 miles).

Well not exactly. The Universe does have this speed limit but recent experiments would seem to suggest that in certain circumstances something can travel a bit quicker.

According to Einstein's special theory of relativity, a faster-than-light signal would violate the "causality principle," which states that "causes" always precede "effects."

The recent experiments are not especially new. Physicists have been making light pulses that travel faster than c (the speed of light in a vacuum) for years. They key point however, is that none of the experiments could be used to send information faster than c.

Difficult experiments

In one experiment, led by Anedio Ranfagni, of the Italian National Research Council, microwaves were sent through a narrow, ring-shaped opening onto a large mirror, sent the waves back to and behind the source. The arrival times of these pulses showed that they travelled at speeds 5% above c.

The work is described in a recent issue of the Physical Review Letters.

But some researchers say the effect may be an illusion caused by light taking a shorter route through the optical system than expected. However, the Italian researchers do not believe this and say there is a "a shadow of a doubt" about faster than light effects.

In the other experiment, a pulse of light that enters a transparent chamber filled with caesium gas reaches speeds 300 times the normal speed of light.

According to the researchers, the main part of the light pulse leaves the far side of the chamber even before it enters at the near side!

A research paper on the experiment, by Lijun Wang of the NEC Research Institute in Princeton, US, is reported to have been submitted to a major science journal, though it remains to be seen how far it will get.

Flashing lights

There is some debate about these type of experiments because they are very difficult to do and could be plagued by many unknown errors. Most physicists would say they are interesting but that in every case there will be a loophole that will allow nature to protect the causality effect.

For years, scientists have been gathering evidence of faster than light, so-called superluminal, phenomenon.

On a simple level, a flashing row of lights can display signals that move from one end of the row to the other end faster than c if the lights flash on and off in time.

But scientists point out that the effect is an illusion and that nothing physical is travelling faster than c.

In space, some 20 years ago, astronomers were puzzled, briefly, by distant objects that appeared to go faster than c.

The explanation was that when an explosion occurs at speeds comparable to c then it can appear from the outside that the lightspeed limit is being violated.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/781199.stm

__________________
Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

TexanAvenger

Like I said, I don't buy the whole idea of trade. I agree that if they could move like that, they can make their own goods. But why wouldn't they be interested in our planet and its people? Don't we constantly observe people we believe to be more primitive than us here on earth? If we find life on, say, Europa that's bacterial or invertebrate, wouldn't we study it intensely just to see how and why it works? Just because they would be incredibly advanced wouldn't mean that they are omniscient or omnipotent, though they would probably seem it. I'm not saying that we're the most interesting thing in the universe. Far from it, I'm sure. But the fact that we are here and alive and sentient is amazing by itself and worth some notice.

zen_tom

Wow - thanks tecoyah - though there does seem to be more than a little controversy over the results of the experiment.

That being said, the idea that if massless particles can be accelarated to super-luminal speeds, it is only a matter of time before tons of organised matter can be made to do the same doesn't necessarily hold true. FTL travel, even the idea that information can be sent FTL allows you to break the laws of causality, allowing you to complete tasks before you initiate them.

If you were able to set up a string of processes that completed before they began, you have the beginnings of an unlimited power-source, unlimited computing power (your calculations could be completed before they were entered) and as such, the option of rebuilding the entire universe for your own amusement.

The flight > jet-planes > moon landing argument does not mean we can change the fabric of the universe. True FTL travel would change the way we operate in the universe so radically, that location, time and matter would become immaterial.

If the aliens have access to these technologies, and if they are interested in our fate, then they walk among us as gods, and will allow us to know their presence as and when it suits them.

For us yes, life in other parts of the universe is an exciting prospect - but if we found any (intelligent) life outside our solar system, it would be so far away that a simple exchange of hello's would take more than 4 years (assuming Alpha Centurai was capable of supporting life) but the estimate at the closest extra-solar system life is at a much greater distance - a mere hello might take 200-5000 years to complete.

Mounting a mission to greet such cosmic neighbours in person would take far longer using even the most outlandish technology currently in development.

Willravel

This is all really speculation. We base our assumptions on the way we act and what we observe. They could be completly different in their goals and tactics.

Trade relies on the individual ability of different cultures creating uniqe goods. Let's say one species is espically good at making musical instruments, and another is good at making music. In order for the process of music to work, one species would need to travel to the other.

America is one of the best economies on the planet. We still don't make chocolate as good as northern europeans (with the possible exception of ghirardelli, of course). Our great worth makes it difficult to produce cheap products like clothing or toys here. We have to outsource the work to asian and central American workers to go around labor and minimum wage laws.

A great amount of the American econemy is based on war and slavery. The same has been true of most of the great civilizations throughout history. It could be the same with another species (that are greedy and sell out their morals for cash).

What if an alien civilization has goals like converting us all to their religion? Or exchanging produce? What if they reproduce by infecting other species with a parasite that changes the other species into their own (see Star Trek:TNG Episode 92 "Identity Crisis")? Our best speculation is perhaps best left with science fiction writers. The possibilities are so vast that our guesses at placing limitations and understanding are meaningless. Until we make contact, we have no context.

L.A. Kief

We do the same thing to animals, who are lower speices, and to them we are the lower speices.

AllDrewsFault

Wrong wrong wrong, they are all wrong, the answer is right where you least expect it right here. It is us, it was always us, humans from the FUTURE.

theburner

I am a firm believer that there are other forms of life in the universe. Before you non-believers get all worked up, I don't think it is little green men that travel around the universe anal probing people.

It could be microbes in the soil on Mars, it could be cockroaches on Titan.. You get my drift. I think the chances of finding sentient beings on other planets is slimmer than just finding "life".

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killeena

If there is intelligent extra-terrestial life, maybe they think it is a better idea to just not communicate with us for a while, as we are still pretty backward. How can we get along with people from other planets, if we can't get along with people on our own?

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