what happened on 911 - Page 8 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Dilbert1234567 · 07-21-2006, 12:47 AM

I always love people claim thermite was used but don’t understand thermite, termite burns Down and only Down, thermite is to hot to control and it only burns Down, you can not cut a vertical beam with thermite because it burns Down not across, it is to hot to channel, it is a gravity driven, self fueled, unstoppable beast. I can’t stress Down hard enough. Down, Down, Down.

A shaped charge could cut a vertical bean cleanly, but not thermite, seriously folks, learn your facts before you start talking about thermite

And for all of you that can use Google, yes there are ways to shape the direction of thermite, but not good ones, nothing to the scale that would be needed, as shown in this http://www.itep.ws/pdf/FOI_Rapport.pdf experiment to use thermite to detonate military ordinance. And it still dribbles out of the holder and can not make an angled cut such as that picture shows; thermite in 9/11 is Bunk.

Debunking the thermite myth:
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/thermite.htm
Thermite in general:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite
Thermite in specific:
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chemica...mite_synthesis

FYI, thermite is DANGEROUS, please don’t experiment with it your self.

ASU2003 · 07-22-2006, 04:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

On the drills thing, what if the actual attacks were part of the planned drills?
The people that got flown into the buildings are sworn to secrecy now.

The CIA officers & agents in WTC 7 aren't talking either. A few more dead people would raise any suspicion.

And lots of people will go along with a plan if they think it is a drill. They might try to stop it if they knew what they were doing was real.

fastom · 07-22-2006, 12:52 PM

Quote:

thermite in 9/11 is Bunk.

Then you post a link that show this?
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/capture7.jpg

How is that one explained? Are the rescue workers up there cutting the debris already? Is there a smelter in the WTC?

Dilbert1234567 · 07-22-2006, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

Then you post a link that show this?
http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/capture7.jpg

How is that one explained? Are the rescue workers up there cutting the debris already? Is there a smelter in the WTC?

Maybe reading the link and not just looking at the pictures would help you understand it. And when you’re done reading the last link, read this one specifically on the flowing metal:

http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/moltensteel.htm

Remember to read the article, not just the pictures.

By your logic, there is thermite in the roof of this car:
http://www.car.co.nz/images/performa...ey-crash-2.jpg

And thermite in this cars trunk:
http://www.ljworld.com/art/apps/penn...ocacola600.jpg

fastom · 07-23-2006, 09:50 PM

The stuff on the energy of the falling building creating enough heat to have steel chunks glowing hot weeks later is bizarre.

Certainly materials that were already on fire dropping into a big pit and the fire being fed by more flammables already down there could make it a big barbeque, that is logical.

The flowing metal out the 78th floor window would require pressurized oxygen or something similar before a jet fuel fire could be intense enough to melt it to a flowing condition. A simple fuel fire alone will not do that.

I work with melting aluminum and steel every day. I don't have a Spin Doctorate degree in it but throw the textbooks in that aluminum fire and observe it in actual practice.

Dilbert1234567 · 07-23-2006, 10:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

The stuff on the energy of the falling building creating enough heat to have steel chunks glowing hot weeks later is bizarre.

to see this effect on a smaller scale, take a piece of metal, like a coat hanger and bend it back and forth in the same point until it breaks, then feel the tips, they will be very hot, when metal gets stressed, it heats up. Further, the debris would insolate the heat in the ground

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

The flowing metal out the 78th floor window would require pressurized oxygen or something similar before a jet fuel fire could be intense enough to melt it to a flowing condition. A simple fuel fire alone will not do that.

There are plenty of exotic metals in an office building to start a nasty fire like we see falling from the window. Magnesium has a low ignition point, and burns extremely hot, hot enough to light aluminum and several other exotic metals. My computer case is magnesium aluminum alloy, when I was modding one of the face plates with a dremmel, it lit up, luckily I had a bucket of sand near and I was able to smother it. I think it could have come from a large UPS, large batteries contain loads of exotic metals. Lithium Ion batteries will ignite and explode when heated past 180C (lithium’s melting point) in a gorgeous display. Alkaline batteries contain magnesium, point is, and there are plenty of things that could cause that drip, besides thermite, which can’t be used to sever vertical beams anyways.

fastom · 07-24-2006, 11:45 PM

I would say it's really doubtful from that picture . Magnesium isn't pouring out of the WTC, it gets consumed, think fireworks. Looks like aluminum or lead or similar. Even if magnesium started it i can't imagine it making a fire getting to the point of flowing glowing metal out a window.

Dilbert1234567 · 07-25-2006, 02:26 AM

I don’t think magnesium is pouring either, I think I was a bit unclear. I am trying to show a method of generating the heat necessary to melt metal to such a degree that it can pour out of the building by showing that there are an abundance of reactive metals in a building that could ignite and melt other metals in a building such as lead or another metal with a low melting point, causing that flow, all without the need for thermite on vertical support beams.

As a side note, the ingredients for thermite are readily available in an office building too. But I want to show that thermite can not be used to sever vertical support beams, which was my initial objective.

fastom · 07-26-2006, 07:53 PM

On the other hand who's to say that cut beam behind the firefighter is still in it's original position? Maybe it was a horizontal or angled beam? The building did collapse.

Thermite is a more logical explanation for the collapse than the other theories... and i say 'theories' since it doesn't appear anybody knows the truth.

Dilbert1234567 · 07-26-2006, 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

On the other hand who's to say that cut beam behind the firefighter is still in it's original position? Maybe it was a horizontal or angled beam? The building did collapse.

Thermite is a more logical explanation for the collapse than the other theories... and i say 'theories' since it doesn't appear anybody knows the truth.

thermite is the lamest 'theory' if you are going to collapse a building. Personally I do think the fire from the planes caused the collapse, but even if I was to bring a building down, thermite is not the way. a shaped charges is the way to go. thermite is very random, its hard to use and it only burns down, making it useless for severing virtical support girders. A shaped charge would be able to cut through the girder as shown, and be set off with control. In my younger and foolish years I played with thermite, aluminum powder, rust, and Sulpher to bind it. It is chaotic and uncontrollable, once set it burns straight down.

I don’t understand your fascination with thermite, it’s not what you think it is. If this was a huge setup, they would use industry standards to collapse it, not thermite.

fastom · 07-27-2006, 10:37 PM

I wouldn't say it was thermite, i only think it wasn't the fire that collapsed it.

samcol · 07-28-2006, 06:53 AM

Tomorrow, Saturday July 29th at 8 PM EST, C-span will be airing the American Scholars Symposium 9/11 truth conference that was held in L.A. I think it is great news that C-span is actually covering a topic like this. One of the highlights of the show that I hope they air was William Rodriguez's speech. He was one of the last people pulled from the buildings and still has one of a couple master keys to the complex. Here's a couple more of the speakers: James Fetzer, BYU Physics Professor Steven Jones, President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret., Filmmaker and Radio Broadcaster Alex Jones, and Terrorism Expert Webster Tarpley, and actor Charlie Sheen.

Here's an article about it C-Span Airing Of L.A. Conference Shows Mainstreaming Of 9/11 Truth

Anyway, thought I'd pass that along.

Willravel · 07-28-2006, 07:21 AM

Thank you samcol!! I admit I've been taking a break from this for a bit, but I will watch with great interest!

Ustwo · 07-28-2006, 07:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

Tomorrow, Saturday July 29th at 8 PM EST, C-span will be airing the American Scholars Symposium 9/11 truth conference that was held in L.A. I think it is great news that C-span is actually covering a topic like this. One of the highlights of the show that I hope they air was William Rodriguez's speech. He was one of the last people pulled from the buildings and still has one of a couple master keys to the complex. Here's a couple more of the speakers: James Fetzer, BYU Physics Professor Steven Jones, President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret., Filmmaker and Radio Broadcaster Alex Jones, and Terrorism Expert Webster Tarpley, and actor Charlie Sheen.

Here's an article about it C-Span Airing Of L.A. Conference Shows Mainstreaming Of 9/11 Truth

Anyway, thought I'd pass that along.

Terrorism Expert.... Webster Tarpley

As I often do, I check a random person in such 'events'

Quote:

Co-author of The Unauthorized Biography of George Bush (1992), Tarpley was a speaker at the 9-11 Inquiry (phase one) in San Francisco. He says that our "overriding political priority is to dismantle, to critique, to deconstruct the 9-11 myth which has become the basis of the US government." Tarpley says the survival of the myth "is key to the re-usurping campaign of the current tenants of the White House." Tarpley explicates, e.g., the role of the mole: government officials loyal to "a private network of operatives who have penetrated the government who are not loyal to the Constitutional chain of command but in fact to the orders that are coming from some command center outside."

Everything I found on this guy pointed to 'batshit insane' not 'terrorism expert', unless you think the terrorists are some secret organization that has taken over the US government. In that case I refer you to the 'batshit insane' observation.

Without looking at anyone else I am going to assume all these people are moonbats, and there will be no real debate or debunking, just batshit insane people with their personal illogical theories.

samcol · 07-28-2006, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Terrorism Expert.... Webster Tarpley

As I often do, I check a random person in such 'events'

Everything I found on this guy pointed to 'batshit insane' not 'terrorism expert', unless you think the terrorists are some secret organization that has taken over the US government. In that case I refer you to the 'batshit insane' observation.

Without looking at anyone else I am going to assume all these people are moonbats, and there will be no real debate or debunking, just batshit insane people with their personal illogical theories.

You sound as though these people are personally endangering your life by simply gathering and discussing 9/11.

Willravel · 07-28-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

You sound as though these people are personally endangering your life by simply gathering and discussing 9/11.

You should see what was said in this thread's counterpart in Politics. People were doing everything they could to get the thing closed or moved to Paranoia.

Ustwo · 07-28-2006, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

You sound as though these people are personally endangering your life by simply gathering and discussing 9/11.

Well I can't see how you would gather that from my statement. Of course I might be an agent such as Tarpley states, and I have been accused of by another member of TFP. If I am exposed I will executed as a precaution by my superiors to ensure I do not expose the New World Order (tm), so perhaps you are not too far off base.

samcol · 07-28-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

You should see what was said in this thread's counterpart in Politics. People were doing everything they could to get the thing closed or moved to Paranoia.

'AHHHHHHH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT 9/11!!!!!!1111'

That almost seems like the mentality sometimes when trying to rationally discuss the topic, which is why having the conference shown on c-span is so great. We can get the other 9/11 views on the table in a public format without a Shawn Hannity or O'rly shouting 'SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP, YOU"RE INSANE' for 15 minutes while the 9/11 guest is just sitting their calmly trying to get their points across.

I give Ustwo credit though, at least he's in these kinds of threads discussing the topics and looking at the alternative information even if he doesn't come to the same conclustion as you or I do.

Ustwo · 07-28-2006, 10:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by samcol

'AHHHHHHH RUN FOR YOUR LIVES, PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT 9/11!!!!!!1111'

That almost seems like the mentality sometimes when trying to rationally discuss the topic, which is why having the conference shown on c-span is so great. We can get the other 9/11 views on the table in a public format without a Shawn Hannity or O'rly shouting 'SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP, YOU"RE INSANE' for 15 minutes while the 9/11 guest is just sitting their calmly trying to get their points across.

I give Ustwo credit though, at least he's in these kinds of threads discussing the topics and looking at the alternative information even if he doesn't come to the same conclustion as you or I do.

Note the highlighted word. I am all for rational discussion, but this is in paranoia for a reason. No amount of rational or scientific information will sway a 9/11 conspiracy theorist. Its one unsupported and then refuted claim after another. Its comical when I see this about crop circles, its depressing when I see it about something that cost so many lives and will cost more in the future. Focusing energy on shadows when the enemy is already known is foolhardy and weakens our ability to prevent future attacks.

fastom · 07-28-2006, 11:48 PM

You consider yourself rational because you believe the party line? I don't find it rational at all to believe even half of those very unlikely scenarios that played out that day.

Willravel · 07-29-2006, 07:02 AM

DAMN IT!!!! Some idiot at work screwed up a bulk order and I had to stay until like 11. Will they be replaying the American Scholars Symposium 9/11 truth conference?

samcol · 07-29-2006, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

DAMN IT!!!! Some idiot at work screwed up a bulk order and I had to stay until like 11. Will they be replaying the American Scholars Symposium 9/11 truth conference?

Actually yes, it will be playing again at 11 EST for the west coast.

Ustwo · 07-29-2006, 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

You consider yourself rational because you believe the party line? I don't find it rational at all to believe even half of those very unlikely scenarios that played out that day.

Because you may not like an explanation does not make it false. When you think of the 100's of people who would have to be 'in' on 9/11 if the conspiracy theories were true and yet all we have are theories from people who are not experts but in fact unqualified to make their assumptions, the rational mind must assume that the rational and unrefuted explanation is the valid one. Event the theories don't support each other, its more of a shotgun approach where someone hopes something will stick.

Willravel · 07-29-2006, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Because you may not like an explanation does not make it false. When you think of the 100's of people who would have to be 'in' on 9/11 if the conspiracy theories were true and yet all we have are theories from people who are not experts but in fact unqualified to make their assumptions, the rational mind must assume that the rational and unrefuted explanation is the valid one. Event the theories don't support each other, its more of a shotgun approach where someone hopes something will stick.

So the amount of people in on a conspiracy is a good measure of it's likelyhood? How many people do you suppose knew about Watergate? How many people do you suppose knew or even know about the Kennedy assasination? For that matter, how many people know the difference between bites and bytes? 8 Mb per second download is about .95 MB per second download. That's a conspiracy to cover up the real download speed of your internet, btw.

Experts have come foraward from both sides (like global warming about 20 years ago) and some have been discredited - on both sides. The problem with the 9/11 truth movement is that there is no one explaination, and there never will be one until the ultimate truth is revealed. Some of us think that thermite charges were used, others don't. Some of us think the planes that crashed were drones, some of us don't. Some of us think that the passengers were real and some don't. There will be no concensus until more facts are uncovered. Remember, most of the stuff we have to go on is 5 years old, and new information on the subject, besides a few lame hollywood movies, is rare to say the least.

Dilbert1234567 · 07-29-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

You consider yourself rational because you believe the party line? I don't find it rational at all to believe even half of those very unlikely scenarios that played out that day.

I consider my self rational because I have looked at both sides and found which makes sense to me, with my understanding of science, politics, and conspiracy theories. It just so happens that my views closely consider with the major majority of everyone else in the world.

I still fail to see which scenarios you find unlikely. I find it irrational to look for spooky men when it’s so obvious what happens when you hit a building with a plane full of fuel.

Willravel · 07-29-2006, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dilbert1234567

I consider my self rational because I have looked at both sides and found which makes sense to me, with my understanding of science, politics, and conspiracy theories. It just so happens that my views closely consider with the major majority of everyone else in the world.

I still fail to see which scenarios you find unlikely. I find it irrational to look for spooky men when it’s so obvious what happens when you hit a building with a plane full of fuel.

I think he was talking about Ustwo, who hasn't invested the time and energy examining both sides as you have.

ASU2003 · 07-30-2006, 08:09 AM

If you have realplayer, you can go to www.cspan.org and replay the entire 1 hour and 45 minute show when ever you feel like it (or if you don't have cable).

I like C-Span, it is the way TV stations should work.

Ustwo · 07-30-2006, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

I think he was talking about Ustwo, who hasn't invested the time and energy examining both sides as you have.

Oh really? Will just because I think you are delusional doesn't mean I didn't give the devil his due and check out all the senerios. I have looked at it quite deeply as 9/11 effected me personally, so you can take your assumptions and stick it under your reynolds wrap coif.

Willravel · 07-30-2006, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Oh really? Will just because I think you are delusional doesn't mean I didn't give the devil his due and check out all the senerios. I have looked at it quite deeply as 9/11 effected me personally, so you can take your assumptions and stick it under your reynolds wrap coif.

Oh, I'm sorry. I was confused by the content of the posts you've made on the subject here on TFP.

fastom · 07-30-2006, 09:25 PM

So the first ever collapse of a skyscraper by fire happens three times in one day, hasn't happened since... that's rational. A group of students takes over several planes with only desktop weaponry, and we take a third party's word on that... rational. The entire air force is like the Keystone cops when they are most needed... rational. Screw the evidence, lets get that steel to the recyclers right away to make room... totally rational.

So , away from 9-11 and back to real life, if the cops find a dead body they cremate it right away, no need to investigate, it isn't gonna bring the victim back to life... duh!

Dilbert1234567 · 07-30-2006, 11:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

So the first ever collapse of a skyscraper by fire happens three times in one day, hasn't happened since... that's rational. A group of students takes over several planes with only desktop weaponry, and we take a third party's word on that... rational. The entire air force is like the Keystone cops when they are most needed... rational. Screw the evidence, lets get that steel to the recyclers right away to make room... totally rational.

So , away from 9-11 and back to real life, if the cops find a dead body they cremate it right away, no need to investigate, it isn't gonna bring the victim back to life... duh!

Never before has a building been hit with a plane that large and that full of fuel, or has since, its ignorant to say its never happened before therefore it can never happen ever, just plain ignorant. One of the major reasons that no fire has collapse a steel building be for the WTC, is all previous fires have struck old steel structures, WTC was one of the first to be designed with the help of computers, so if a beam needed to support 3 tons, it could support 3 tons, no more, no less, in the past, with out the aid of computers to get it right, building were designed huge redundancies, if it should need to support 3 tons, it could hold 10 tons. Hijackings occur infrequently, and before 9/11 no one thought they would ever crash a plane into a building, it was always the same drill, 'we want ____ or we kill everyone, meet our demands and they all survive'. So no one fought back, the passengers figured that if they did not resist, they'd get a free trip to some god forsaken country with out extradition rights, but they would live. If the passengers knew what was going to happen, the hijackings would not have succeeded, the passengers could have overpowered the hijackers with injuries, but overpowered nun the less. Flight 93 may have been proof of this, but what happened on flight 93 is spotty at best, and now polluted with that damn movie. As for the air force, there would have been hell to pay if they had just started shooting planes down, to sit here and say they should have done more with no one knowing what was going to happen is again ignorant of how the world really works, if they had shot down the planes, everyone would be up in arms about how are own military killed our own citizens with out trying for a peaceful solution.

pan6467 · 07-31-2006, 12:28 PM

There is, I am sure, a portion of our officials who knew something about 9/11 long before it happened, and they may have been involved. But we will never know the truth.

Even if the truth does come out it has been long enough and people set enough in their beliefs that it won't change a damn thing.

What do you think the "truth" will come out and we'll be able to prosecute the people? Do you think the people involved are going to stand up, admit everything and voluntarily face the consequences?

Personally, I believe that after the first WTC bombing and the USS Cole whoever wanted war in the Middle East saw that it would take something horrific to get Americans to want to go to war.

I think OKC may well have been part of their plot but they hired idiots and it fell apart before they could truly say it was "muslim" terrorists. Is there any proff of this? Nope, that's what made them (TPTB) so cunning, 100% deniability and nothing traceable to them. If you do enough research what will you find? That these "right winged, radical, white supremecists, were actually funded and had weapons sold to them by Arabs. But then again.... you have to read the right sources and not believe the mainstream press.

So is my knowing and believing this changing anything in the world? Nope. TPTB are still playing their power games and still deciding who shall live and who shall die, via war, starvation, cureable diseases, drug use, who gets rich who doesn't.... etc.

And there will always be people fighting to know the truth.

And TPTB will always have that power. The names and their purposes and what they want to do with the world will most definately change over time, but but the power will always be there and shared by a very select few. Because even after a revolution, man needs leadership and unfortunately, history has always proven the people who take that leadership, no matter how pure their heart, eventually power corrupts. May take time but it is always going to happen..... just as man revolting and fighting the power when it gets to that point.

Dilbert1234567 · 07-31-2006, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

There is, I am sure, a portion of our officials who knew something about 9/11 long before it happened, and they may have been involved. But we will never know the truth.

I agree, things were known, I’d even venture to say that the relative date was known (sometime in September) how ever I don’t think the extent was known, hijacking, sure, crashing planes into the towers, not a chance.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

Personally, I believe that after the first WTC bombing and the USS Cole whoever wanted war in the Middle East saw that it would take something horrific to get Americans to want to go to war.

I think that the current administration wanted war from the start; however, I don’t think they allowed the Cole to happen, quite frankly, if the sailors had felt threatened by the water craft, they would have shot it as it approached; the administration has absolutely no control over the sailors defending them selves. As for the first WTC attack, that happened during Clintons administration, who had no desire to go to war with the middle east.

Quote:

Originally Posted by pan6467

I think OKC may well have been part of their plot but they hired idiots and it fell apart before they could truly say it was "muslim" terrorists. Is there any proff of this? Nope, that's what made them (TPTB) so cunning, 100% deniability and nothing traceable to them. If you do enough research what will you find? That these "right winged, radical, white supremecists, were actually funded and had weapons sold to them by Arabs. But then again.... you have to read the right sources and not believe the mainstream press.

Originally the media blamed middle easterners for the bombing, in response to the first WTC attack, how ever it was later determined to be Timothy McVeigh and Terry Nichols. They had motives, all there life they had been anti government, and the happenings at Waco and ruby ridge pushed them over the edge, from pissed off to activist. As for your 'sources' please produce some so we may also read them, which are the right sources and which are wrong.

Willravel · 07-31-2006, 09:12 PM

Well I finally got a hold of a decent structural engineer. Who would have guessed...he figures that 9/11 is fishy. He explained how the WTC would have had a static ratio of 5:1. In other words, if it was rated to hold 100 tons, it could theoretically support 500 tons. I keep hearing how the WTC was reduced to roughtly 60% of it's rated strength. So that's 20% strength loss. Even if the steel had been heated to 550 C, or about 1022 F, the towers would have stood. "Not only the fact that they fell, but the fact that they fell so fast is highly suspect", is what the reponse I've gotten from this engineer. He won't speculate as to how the towers fell, but suggested that the planes simply could not have been responsible.

I also found a really good page for steelwork fire resistance for anyone who's interested. http://web.archive.org/web/200308181...fire/fr006.htm

I've found that studies on parking garages could be relevant to the current discussion.

Quote:

Steel-framed car parks have been rigorously fire tested in a number of countries (Table 3). These tests demonstrate that most unprotected steel in open sided steel-framed car parks has sufficient inherent resistance to withstand the effects of any fires that are likely to occur. Table 3 lists the maximum temperatures reached in open sided car park tests in four countries. These can be compared with the characteristic failure temperatures for beams carrying insulating floor slabs and columns of 620 [degrees] C and 550 [degrees] C respectively.

http://web.archive.org/web/200308181...arks/cp006.htm

Please note that parking garages do not have thermal insulation, like that found in the WTC. Also, parking garages do not have a fraction of the support and steel found in the WTC. The fires in the parking garages would be fueled by gas, diesel, tires, engine oil, engine tar, hydraulic fluids, and the like can burn at a very similar temperature to airline fuel (diesel and kerosene have almost identical burning temperatures), espically over a very long period.

I still do not see how the relatively minor damage and fires could have completly demolished two of the best built, steel reinfirced buildings in the world. Maybe I'm just crazy.

Dilbert1234567 · 07-31-2006, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by willravel

Well I finally got a hold of a decent structural engineer. Who would have guessed...he figures that 9/11 is fishy. He explained how the WTC would have had a static ratio of 5:1. In other words, if it was rated to hold 100 tons, it could theoretically support 500 tons. I keep hearing how the WTC was reduced to roughtly 60% of it's rated strength. So that's 20% strength loss. Even if the steel had been heated to 550 C, or about 1022 F, the towers would have stood. "Not only the fact that they fell, but the fact that they fell so fast is highly suspect", is what the reponse I've gotten from this engineer. He won't speculate as to how the towers fell, but suggested that the planes simply could not have been responsible.

I also found a really good page for steelwork fire resistance for anyone who's interested. http://web.archive.org/web/200308181...fire/fr006.htm

I've found that studies on parking garages could be relevant to the current discussion.

http://web.archive.org/web/200308181...arks/cp006.htm

Please note that parking garages do not have thermal insulation, like that found in the WTC. Also, parking garages do not have a fraction of the support and steel found in the WTC. The fires in the parking garages would be fueled by gas, diesel, tires, engine oil, engine tar, hydraulic fluids, and the like can burn at a very similar temperature to airline fuel (diesel and kerosene have almost identical burning temperatures), espically over a very long period.

I still do not see how the relatively minor damage and fires could have completly demolished two of the best built, steel reinfirced buildings in the world. Maybe I'm just crazy.

your expert is missing one big part of the equation, the steel was weakened structurally like he said, however, he forgot about the thermal expansion of the metal as the horizontal beams expanded, the pushed the vertical beams out of alignment causing the collapse. think of it this way, you can stand on an empty can of soda, if you do it carefully, but one slight deformation to the side will cause the entire can to collapse under your weight.

This is an article about thermal expansion; the picture shows railroad tracks that warped from the heat on a hot day in July.

http://www.upscale.utoronto.ca/IYear...malExpans.html

fastom · 08-01-2006, 12:03 AM

You are just guessing at all that stuff. Even if the fire was on the ground floor with 100 floors bearing down on top of it it'd be standing today if not for some trigger happy idiot at the helm.

As a guy who's been awfully close to many fuel fires i have my own ideas of how hot they get and what will and won't melt or weaken. The ideas you have would mean fire is simply not containable. Barbeques, fire places, gas and diesel engines, Bic lighters and candles would all be like bombs. It would be impossible to design a building that wouldn't collapse if your wild theories are right.

I'm off for a week, so the comebacks need not be too snappy.

Dilbert1234567 · 08-01-2006, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fastom

You are just guessing at all that stuff. Even if the fire was on the ground floor with 100 floors bearing down on top of it it'd be standing today if not for some trigger happy idiot at the helm.

As a guy who's been awfully close to many fuel fires i have my own ideas of how hot they get and what will and won't melt or weaken. The ideas you have would mean fire is simply not containable. Barbeques, fire places, gas and diesel engines, Bic lighters and candles would all be like bombs. It would be impossible to design a building that wouldn't collapse if your wild theories are right.

I'm off for a week, so the comebacks need not be too snappy.

Thermal expansion is not a wild theory of mine; it’s empirically shown time and time again in a controlled lab setting. Did you even bother to read the article about thermal expansion? If you can not even accept the simple, proven concept of thermal expansion, there is no since of discussing this with you, I guess this is why this topic has gone back into the paranoia. Please take the time and enroll in a physics class at your local community college, maybe then you will start to understand the wonderful scientific world we live in.

Willravel it’s been a pleasure discussing this with you, but I’m tired of defending simple scientific concepts here, I’d like to continue this discussion with you, if your interested, PM me

Pulling the ripcord on my Para shoot on this thread.

~Dilbert

fastom · 08-01-2006, 04:08 PM

One more before i take off ( just for a few days)

Thermal expansion? We aren't talking a steam engine here, the amount the steel beams in a building would grow is insignificant. Wind sway would move the building far more than heat.
Ever wonder why your car still fits in a parking spot when it's running and the exhaust is hot?

host · 08-02-2006, 03:19 AM

Very entertaining, 5 minute long video exchnage between Hannity & Colmes, vs.
Wisconsin PHD, Barrett:

Quote:

("I don't think this [teaching] is a proper forum for guys who hold extremist views like yourself," asserted Sean Hannity. Retorted Barrett, "No, you?? guys are extremists. Fox News is the biggest bunch of extremists on the planet.")

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-hIe8...n%20hannity%20

Quote:

http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/topst...=92026&ntpid=0
What makes Kevin Barrett tick?
UW lecturer just doesn't believe the government
By Aaron Nathans

.........Barrett has recently emerged from obscurity to gain worldwide attention for his belief that some top U.S. government officials orchestrated the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11, 2001. He works to punch holes in the government's official version of the attacks from the second floor of the Lone Rock cabin.

Here he runs the Muslim-Jewish-Christian Alliance for 9/11 Truth. Members of his alliance have various opinions about this nation's level of complicity in the attacks, but all say they want a review more thorough than the one the 9/11 Commission provided in 2004, Barrett said.

Barrett, a UW lecturer on Islam, personally believes the World Trade Center towers were brought down by a controlled demolition.

He also believes that the story of the hijacked plane that hit the Pentagon is "preposterous."

"Their agenda goes way beyond Iraq. They want 50 years of war at least," Barrett said of the U.S. government, sitting barefoot in a soft chair in the cabin. The government wants to gain power over the Middle East and Central Asia, he said. "They'll be able to use the psychological impact of 9/11 for another 50 years."............

......Barrett eventually concluded that the attacks were intended as a spark to rally the support of the American people behind war in the Middle East......

.......The galvanizing moment, Barrett said, came when he invited Griffin, the author, to speak at UW. About 450 people attended the speech at Bascom Hall in April 2005, and it was rebroadcast on C-SPAN. The broadcast and publicity around the event attracted people from around the world to Barrett's cause, helping make the alliance a leader in the movement, with about 1,000 supporters.........

.....In recent weeks, politicians have sought Barrett's ouster as a University of Wisconsin-Madison lecturer on Islam in an elective, four-credit course. Provost Patrick Farrell last week reaffirmed the university's offer for him to teach a class this fall, citing the university's tradition of academic freedom.

Barrett, who has taught folklore at UW-Madison and Islam at Edgewood College, says he may apply for a tenure-track position at UW-Madison, if the right job becomes available.

Now that he's famous, Barrett's views have many people calling him crazy, but Leder, his old friend, insists that he is not.

"Kevin has always explored," Leder said. "He's never taken anything at face value."

....And this is an interesting presentation that encompasses the "theme" in almost all of my posts on TFP: (From the Psychology of 9/11 Perception)

Quote:

20 - 911 BRAIN QUESTIONS:

....12) How is our perception of reality formed by external influences?
a) Social Conditioning and Education
b) Authority figures
c) Media like TV, radio, newspapers
d) Peer pressure
e) INTERNAL pain/pleasure brain systems
f) Habit

Quote:

http://www.neilslade.com/Papers/911brain.html
THE PSYCHOLOGY of 9/11 Perception

.......... Facts are not always enough, and have never been enough. I can't tell you how many times I've shown people the OBVIOUS facts-- and they still reject the truth.

Why?

There are two basic reasons, both are related to negative emotion.

911=PAIN

So, people instinctively want to avoid pain.

"I don't wanna hear it. I don't believe. You're crazy." They pull their hand out of perceived fire.

We have to create a new model in which
911 Truth= Pleasure/Survival/Peace

Currently, 9/11 has been used to motivate the agenda of aggression and war (and the resultant power and profit) through the 911=pain equation.

Here's the conventional 911 Sales Pitch:
"We must fight the never ending war against terrorism, or THIS will happen to YOU.

....It is critical that 911 Truth must supplant and replace this sales pitch with a MORE ATTRACTIVE Sales Pitch:

911 Truth will bring you and future generations true peace and freedom out of knowledge.

Quote:

......Truth = Justice = Freedom

Then one can go into the how, why, when, where and all the details that point to the advantages of truth and logic over non-sense.

Otherwise people remain deaf and blind, and the war machine just marches on.

From a behavior standpoint, is has to do with the way we
process information-

Humans are NOT taught to think critically, or for themselves.

Why?

The comfort of BIG DADDY.

We are taught at the earliest age that Big Daddy will protect us and make us safe.

We are conditioned by the "education" system, i.e. social conformity, to simple absorb directions from authority figures- BIG DADDY, and everything else is SECONDARY.

SO, the ultimate question has to do with
MOTIVATING people to LOOK at and grasp the truth.

This is not an easy problem-- it is as difficult as getting a child to admit that they are the victims of parental child abuse. THAT is what we are really up against.

America has been raped by Daddy- 9/11.

At the very least, Daddy has allowed the rape of son/daughter to occur by forces not honestly identified.

That's a really hard one to overcome.
It is the most traumatic thing anyone can face. .......

Seaver · 08-04-2006, 08:07 AM

http://www.neilslade.com/

The Amazing Brain Music Adventure... sounds reputable.

Moving on to http://www.madison.com/tct/mad/topst...=92026&ntpid=0...

Quote:

During the speech, Griffin made the case that it was implausible the Pentagon could be hit by an airplane, since it is "surely the best defended building on the planet." The U.S. military has the best radar systems in the world and "does not miss anything occurring in North American airspace," he added.

Wow, sounds great to a person who's never been in flight control, aviation, or the military. Unforunately aside from weather radars, and military training/testing, there are no active radar stations in the US. They use the IFF system, turn it off and the ground control simply is blind to your presence.

Besides one only has to visit the Pentagon to realize *gasp* it has no SAMs in the area.

So, he's Mystic Muslim and he had a respectable grandfather... what makes him an expert?

07-21-2006, 12:47 AM	#281 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	I always love people claim thermite was used but don’t understand thermite, termite burns Down and only Down, thermite is to hot to control and it only burns Down, you can not cut a vertical beam with thermite because it burns Down not across, it is to hot to channel, it is a gravity driven, self fueled, unstoppable beast. I can’t stress Down hard enough. Down, Down, Down. A shaped charge could cut a vertical bean cleanly, but not thermite, seriously folks, learn your facts before you start talking about thermite And for all of you that can use Google, yes there are ways to shape the direction of thermite, but not good ones, nothing to the scale that would be needed, as shown in this http://www.itep.ws/pdf/FOI_Rapport.pdf experiment to use thermite to detonate military ordinance. And it still dribbles out of the holder and can not make an angled cut such as that picture shows; thermite in 9/11 is Bunk. Debunking the thermite myth: http://www.geocities.com/debunking911/thermite.htm Thermite in general: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thermite Thermite in specific: http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Chemica...mite_synthesis FYI, thermite is DANGEROUS, please don’t experiment with it your self. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

07-25-2006, 02:26 AM	#288 (permalink)
Dilbert1234567 Devils Cabana Boy Location: Central Coast CA	I don’t think magnesium is pouring either, I think I was a bit unclear. I am trying to show a method of generating the heat necessary to melt metal to such a degree that it can pour out of the building by showing that there are an abundance of reactive metals in a building that could ignite and melt other metals in a building such as lead or another metal with a low melting point, causing that flow, all without the need for thermite on vertical support beams. As a side note, the ingredients for thermite are readily available in an office building too. But I want to show that thermite can not be used to sever vertical support beams, which was my initial objective. __________________ Donate Blood! "Love is not finding the perfect person, but learning to see an imperfect person perfectly." -Sam Keen

07-28-2006, 06:53 AM	#292 (permalink)
samcol Junkie Location: Indiana	Tomorrow, Saturday July 29th at 8 PM EST, C-span will be airing the American Scholars Symposium 9/11 truth conference that was held in L.A. I think it is great news that C-span is actually covering a topic like this. One of the highlights of the show that I hope they air was William Rodriguez's speech. He was one of the last people pulled from the buildings and still has one of a couple master keys to the complex. Here's a couple more of the speakers: James Fetzer, BYU Physics Professor Steven Jones, President of the Institute for Space and Security Studies Dr. Robert M. Bowman, Lt. Col., USAF, ret., Filmmaker and Radio Broadcaster Alex Jones, and Terrorism Expert Webster Tarpley, and actor Charlie Sheen. Here's an article about it C-Span Airing Of L.A. Conference Shows Mainstreaming Of 9/11 Truth Anyway, thought I'd pass that along. Last edited by samcol; 07-28-2006 at 06:58 AM..

07-30-2006, 09:25 PM	#310 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	So the first ever collapse of a skyscraper by fire happens three times in one day, hasn't happened since... that's rational. A group of students takes over several planes with only desktop weaponry, and we take a third party's word on that... rational. The entire air force is like the Keystone cops when they are most needed... rational. Screw the evidence, lets get that steel to the recyclers right away to make room... totally rational. So , away from 9-11 and back to real life, if the cops find a dead body they cremate it right away, no need to investigate, it isn't gonna bring the victim back to life... duh! Last edited by fastom; 07-30-2006 at 09:28 PM..

07-31-2006, 12:28 PM	#312 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	There is, I am sure, a portion of our officials who knew something about 9/11 long before it happened, and they may have been involved. But we will never know the truth. Even if the truth does come out it has been long enough and people set enough in their beliefs that it won't change a damn thing. What do you think the "truth" will come out and we'll be able to prosecute the people? Do you think the people involved are going to stand up, admit everything and voluntarily face the consequences? Personally, I believe that after the first WTC bombing and the USS Cole whoever wanted war in the Middle East saw that it would take something horrific to get Americans to want to go to war. I think OKC may well have been part of their plot but they hired idiots and it fell apart before they could truly say it was "muslim" terrorists. Is there any proff of this? Nope, that's what made them (TPTB) so cunning, 100% deniability and nothing traceable to them. If you do enough research what will you find? That these "right winged, radical, white supremecists, were actually funded and had weapons sold to them by Arabs. But then again.... you have to read the right sources and not believe the mainstream press. So is my knowing and believing this changing anything in the world? Nope. TPTB are still playing their power games and still deciding who shall live and who shall die, via war, starvation, cureable diseases, drug use, who gets rich who doesn't.... etc. And there will always be people fighting to know the truth. And TPTB will always have that power. The names and their purposes and what they want to do with the world will most definately change over time, but but the power will always be there and shared by a very select few. Because even after a revolution, man needs leadership and unfortunately, history has always proven the people who take that leadership, no matter how pure their heart, eventually power corrupts. May take time but it is always going to happen..... just as man revolting and fighting the power when it gets to that point. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?" Last edited by pan6467; 07-31-2006 at 12:32 PM..

07-23-2006, 09:50 PM	#285 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	The stuff on the energy of the falling building creating enough heat to have steel chunks glowing hot weeks later is bizarre. Certainly materials that were already on fire dropping into a big pit and the fire being fed by more flammables already down there could make it a big barbeque, that is logical. The flowing metal out the 78th floor window would require pressurized oxygen or something similar before a jet fuel fire could be intense enough to melt it to a flowing condition. A simple fuel fire alone will not do that. I work with melting aluminum and steel every day. I don't have a Spin Doctorate degree in it but throw the textbooks in that aluminum fire and observe it in actual practice.

07-24-2006, 11:45 PM	#287 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	I would say it's really doubtful from that picture . Magnesium isn't pouring out of the WTC, it gets consumed, think fireworks. Looks like aluminum or lead or similar. Even if magnesium started it i can't imagine it making a fire getting to the point of flowing glowing metal out a window.

07-26-2006, 07:53 PM	#289 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	On the other hand who's to say that cut beam behind the firefighter is still in it's original position? Maybe it was a horizontal or angled beam? The building did collapse. Thermite is a more logical explanation for the collapse than the other theories... and i say 'theories' since it doesn't appear anybody knows the truth.

07-27-2006, 10:37 PM	#291 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	I wouldn't say it was thermite, i only think it wasn't the fire that collapsed it.

07-28-2006, 07:21 AM	#293 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	Thank you samcol!! I admit I've been taking a break from this for a bit, but I will watch with great interest!

07-28-2006, 11:48 PM	#300 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	You consider yourself rational because you believe the party line? I don't find it rational at all to believe even half of those very unlikely scenarios that played out that day.

07-29-2006, 07:02 AM	#301 (permalink)
Willravel ... a sort of licensed troubleshooter.	DAMN IT!!!! Some idiot at work screwed up a bulk order and I had to stay until like 11. Will they be replaying the American Scholars Symposium 9/11 truth conference?

07-30-2006, 08:09 AM	#307 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	If you have realplayer, you can go to www.cspan.org and replay the entire 1 hour and 45 minute show when ever you feel like it (or if you don't have cable). I like C-Span, it is the way TV stations should work.

08-01-2006, 12:03 AM	#316 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	You are just guessing at all that stuff. Even if the fire was on the ground floor with 100 floors bearing down on top of it it'd be standing today if not for some trigger happy idiot at the helm. As a guy who's been awfully close to many fuel fires i have my own ideas of how hot they get and what will and won't melt or weaken. The ideas you have would mean fire is simply not containable. Barbeques, fire places, gas and diesel engines, Bic lighters and candles would all be like bombs. It would be impossible to design a building that wouldn't collapse if your wild theories are right. I'm off for a week, so the comebacks need not be too snappy.

08-01-2006, 04:08 PM	#318 (permalink)
fastom Psycho Location: way out west	One more before i take off ( just for a few days) Thermal expansion? We aren't talking a steam engine here, the amount the steel beams in a building would grow is insignificant. Wind sway would move the building far more than heat. Ever wonder why your car still fits in a parking spot when it's running and the exhaust is hot?