Man in coma for 23 years actually conscious whole time...or was he? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

telekinetic · 11-25-2009, 01:32 PM

Anyone who reads news sites or watches the news on TV has probably heard about the 'horrible' story of the man trapped in a coma for 23 years who was actually conscious the whole time:

Man says emergence from coma like rebirth - More health news- msnbc.com

Quote:

BRUSSELS - A Belgian man wrongly diagnosed as vegetative for 23 years told The Associated Press Tuesday that the discovery he was fully conscious brought him a feeling of rebirth after decades of loneliness and frustration.

Car-crash victim Rom Houben was diagnosed as being in a vegetative state but appears to have been conscious the whole time. An expert using a specialized type of brain scan that was not available in the 1980s finally realized it and provided him with the equipment to communicate.

I saw the original clip on the news, and was extremely dubious, so looked it up and found that article, which mentions briefly that this could all be a scam, although the rest of the article basically seems to gloss over this fact:

Quote:

Arthur Caplan, a bioethics professor at the University of Pennsylvania, said he is skeptical of Houben's ability to communicate after seeing video of his hand being moved along the keyboard.

"That's called 'facilitated communication,'" Caplan said. "That is ouija board stuff. It's been discredited time and time again. When people look at it, it's usually the person doing the pointing who's doing the messages, not the person they claim they are helping."

Caplan also said the statements Houben allegedly made with the computer seem unnatural for someone with such a profound injury and an inability to communicate for decades.

James Randi weighs in pretty heavily on the "This is total crap" side:

Quote:

This is yet another obvious example of abysmal, practiced, purposeful ignorance by medical personnel - including Dr. Snyderman and her staff who prepared this piece. I cannot understand how anyone, professional medical person or layman, can continue to believe that the farce known as "Facilitated Communication" [FC] represents anything other than a fantasy that was begun back in 1977

This Cruel Farce Has To Stop!

What do you guys think? Has this guy actually been trapped in a coma for 23 years and is now communicating? Is the 'facilitated communications' person perpetrating a malicious scam, honestly facilitating communicating, or just subject to some sort of Ouiji board effect, where she believes on some level he actually is communicating through her?

SecretMethod70 · 11-25-2009, 01:58 PM

Here's the full article from Dr. Arthur Caplan.

Coherent after coma? Not so sure - Breaking Bioethics- msnbc.com

It's possible this guy was misdiagnosed, but once I found out how he's "communicating," I'm not inclined to believe it.

robot_parade · 11-25-2009, 09:14 PM

Well, to pile on to the 'this is crap' side, here's another link: Science-Based Medicine Man in Coma 23 Years – Is He Really Conscious?

Charlatan · 11-25-2009, 10:33 PM

I with James Randi... facilitated communications is a pile of bunk. If it wasn't someone would have claimed his prize.

raging moderate · 11-28-2009, 11:08 PM

I think I saw this on "House"

MSD · 11-29-2009, 09:02 AM

This is the same FC bullshit that set autism research back by years and ruined the lives of innocent people with accusations of abuse.

There's no way a patient in a first-world country went 23 years without anyone thinking to try something more precise than the Glasgow Coma Scale.

hunnychile · 11-29-2009, 02:29 PM

This post freaks me out.

I'm ready to sign papers on my Advance Directives & Will this week and I'm going to state that I don't want to be in a vegatative/coma state for more than a month. Since I believe life after death is way better than life on earth. I feel ok moving forward with my will and AD etc.

Those who know me and love me will know if I'm conscious or not. But they also know I'm not one to stick around living a subhuman existence.

Then I read this post & links and I'm blown away. So/Gonna go get my AD and not worry or obsess/

Salem · 11-29-2009, 06:20 PM

I agree with Hunny. Whether this is true or false, I don't ever want to be in a coma. Sure some people wake up years later, but half of them have no recolection of anything, their families have moved on and they're left with nothing. Or they wake up feeling like no time has passed but it's been years. I couldnt do it. Coma's freak me out.

snowy · 11-30-2009, 12:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

This is the same FC bullshit that set autism research back by years and ruined the lives of innocent people with accusations of abuse.

There's no way a patient in a first-world country went 23 years without anyone thinking to try something more precise than the Glasgow Coma Scale.

I'm glad you mentioned this.

FC is bunk. It comes up in my classes from time to time, usually brought up by curious students who vaguely remember the incidents MSD mentioned. It is EXACTLY like a Ouija board--that is the example used more often than not by professors addressing this. I have yet to meet a human development professor who takes it seriously; by and large, they think it's a load of crap, and I have to agree.

Reese · 12-06-2009, 02:04 AM

FC.. haha.. oh man.. That video..

I read the story before watching the video. I'm glad I actually came back and watched it because I almost believed it when I read it. I was wondering what kind of weird shit he'd seen or if he had any "Kill Bill" moments he'd like to forget. Now that I've seen the video though, I don't know why doctors would even entertain the idea of FC. It's complete nonsense.

IMO, of course.

SecretMethod70 · 02-17-2010, 02:28 AM

Doubts about 'coma man' were spot on - Short Sharp Science - New Scientist

Quote:

Doubts about 'coma man' were spot on
Andy Coghlan, reporter

Remember Rom Houben, the man thought to be in a vegetative state, who turned out to have been fully conscious and "locked in" for more than 20 years? It has now emerged that doubts that he was really communicating using residual movement in his finger and a touchscreen were spot on.

"Powerlessness. Utter powerlessness. At first I was angry, then I learned to live with it."

That's what Houben, brain damaged in a car accident in 1983, apparently told the world by communicating via a computer touch-screen, at least according to the original report of Houben's story in Der Spiegel in November 2009.
The story attracted huge media attention, which quickly turned sour when several videos of Houben typing at the screen prompted commentators to cry foul. They pointed out that the speed of the typing, and the fact that Houben is not even looking at the keyboard at various points in the footage, suggested it was in fact the person holding his finger who was behind the messages.

Now, according to a follow-up article in Der Spiegel, it seems these suspicions have been borne out. The magazine reports that Steven Laureys of the University of Liège in Belgium, who first diagnosed Houben as conscious, but dissociated himself from the communication fiasco, has carried out subsequent tests to see if Houben is capable of this kind of communication. He concludes that the speech therapist holding Houben's finger was in fact the source of the messages.

Quote:

"The tests determined that he doesn't have enough strength and muscle control in his right arm to operate the keyboard. In her effort to help the patient express himself, it would seem that the speech therapist had unwittingly assumed control. This kind of self-deception happens all the time when this method -- known as 'facilitated communication' -- is used."

According to Der Spiegel, Houben failed to pass a 15-item test administered by Laureys. As Houben saw or heard reference to 15 items, he was asked to use his single, incompletely paralysed finger to press the corresponding word on the touch screen - without the help of the speech therapist. But he failed on every item. To make sure the test was fair, Laureys gave the same test to another, impaired patient, who successfully completed the test.

Where does this leave Houben? According to Der Spiegel, because of images taken of his brain activity that reveal it is behaving only slightly differently from that of a healthy brain, "researchers are fairly certain that Houben is conscious".

How to communicate with him is another matter. Earlier this month, Laureys, together with researchers at the University of Cambridge revealed a brain imaging technique that allowed them to converse with a paralysed man previously thought to be in a vegetative state. But Der Spiegel reports that the procedure is "entirely unsuitable" for Houben: "One attempt ended without usable results because spasms make it nearly impossible for Houben to hold his head still."

MSD · 02-17-2010, 10:52 AM

Give him some Ambien, see if it wakes him up like it seems to have done for other PVS patients.

Jinn · 02-17-2010, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MSD

This is the same FC bullshit that set autism research back by years and ruined the lives of innocent people with accusations of abuse.

There's no way a patient in a first-world country went 23 years without anyone thinking to try something more precise than the Glasgow Coma Scale.

Spot-on summation of FC and it's effects.

Another article on Houben:

http://skepticblog.org/2010/02/15/dr...ation-failure/

11-25-2009, 01:58 PM	#2 (permalink)
SecretMethod70 Human Administrator Location: Chicago	Here's the full article from Dr. Arthur Caplan. Coherent after coma? Not so sure - Breaking Bioethics- msnbc.com It's possible this guy was misdiagnosed, but once I found out how he's "communicating," I'm not inclined to believe it. __________________ Le temps détruit tout "Musicians are the carriers and communicators of spirit in the most immediate sense." - Kurt Elling

11-25-2009, 10:33 PM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I with James Randi... facilitated communications is a pile of bunk. If it wasn't someone would have claimed his prize. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

11-28-2009, 11:08 PM	#5 (permalink)
raging moderate Insane Location: Whatever house my keys can get me into	I think I saw this on "House" __________________ These are the good old days... formerly Murp0434

11-29-2009, 02:29 PM	#7 (permalink)
hunnychile Alien Anthropologist Location: Between Boredom and Nirvana	This post freaks me out. I'm ready to sign papers on my Advance Directives & Will this week and I'm going to state that I don't want to be in a vegatative/coma state for more than a month. Since I believe life after death is way better than life on earth. I feel ok moving forward with my will and AD etc. Those who know me and love me will know if I'm conscious or not. But they also know I'm not one to stick around living a subhuman existence. Then I read this post & links and I'm blown away. So/Gonna go get my AD and not worry or obsess/ __________________ "I need compassion, understanding and chocolate." - NJB

12-06-2009, 02:04 AM	#10 (permalink)
Reese Delicious	FC.. haha.. oh man.. That video.. I read the story before watching the video. I'm glad I actually came back and watched it because I almost believed it when I read it. I was wondering what kind of weird shit he'd seen or if he had any "Kill Bill" moments he'd like to forget. Now that I've seen the video though, I don't know why doctors would even entertain the idea of FC. It's complete nonsense. IMO, of course. __________________ “It is better to be rich and healthy than poor and sick” - Dave Barry

11-25-2009, 09:14 PM	#3 (permalink)
robot_parade Junkie Location: San Antonio, TX	Well, to pile on to the 'this is crap' side, here's another link: Science-Based Medicine Man in Coma 23 Years – Is He Really Conscious?

11-29-2009, 09:02 AM	#6 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	This is the same FC bullshit that set autism research back by years and ruined the lives of innocent people with accusations of abuse. There's no way a patient in a first-world country went 23 years without anyone thinking to try something more precise than the Glasgow Coma Scale.

11-29-2009, 06:20 PM	#8 (permalink)
Salem Psycho Location: Canada	I agree with Hunny. Whether this is true or false, I don't ever want to be in a coma. Sure some people wake up years later, but half of them have no recolection of anything, their families have moved on and they're left with nothing. Or they wake up feeling like no time has passed but it's been years. I couldnt do it. Coma's freak me out.

02-17-2010, 10:52 AM	#12 (permalink)
MSD The sky calls to us ... Super Moderator Location: CT	Give him some Ambien, see if it wakes him up like it seems to have done for other PVS patients.