If the Air France crash was a terrorist attack, would they tell us? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

ASU2003 · 06-02-2009, 08:52 AM

This wouldn't be a good time economically for the airlines to suffer from terrorism fears now would it? Now, I am only speculating that it could be a reason for a plane to go down over the ocean, there could also be a catastrophic mechanical failure, a major electric failure, ice/weather, or a terrorist attack.

I haven't heard or seen any groups claiming responsibility (even if they are lying), but I am wondering how they already know it was weather related, and can rule out a terrorist bomb already. Did they hear any communication from the pilots prior to the crash?

Am I paranoid since I think the truth is what they want it to be?

Bill O'Rights · 06-02-2009, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Am I paranoid since I think the truth is what they want it to be?

Nope. Not at all. It makes you intuitive.

Although...in this case, I have no reason to doubt that this is anything other that what it appears to be. A tragic event caused by circumstance and not design.

The_Jazz · 06-02-2009, 09:02 AM

I've actually heard that they have NOT ruled out a bomb or other kind of attack. As I've read it, weather is just the most likely suspect at the moment, given that they were flying into a pretty massive storm. That makes a missle attack unlikely, which just leaves the bomb theory. Which is the one that really worries me since the Shoe Bomber intended to do something very similar - crash a plane in the deep ocean.

Baraka_Guru · 06-02-2009, 09:27 AM

If a storm wasn't a factor, then it would increase the likelihood. Turbulence alone isn't a heck of a lot to bring a plane down. It would have to be a combination of other issues, such as mechanical failure, pilot error, etc., if not terrorism.

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 09:40 AM

I might be stupid, but if it were a terrorist attack wouldnt it be done in such a way that there really wasnt a chance of blaming a storm so they could get the credit? Terrorist rarely doing anything without wanting all the credit for it that they can get

Tully Mars · 06-02-2009, 09:47 AM

Has anyone taken credit for it? Seems like even when it's accident some whack job groups jump up to claim "we did it!" I think it's a good fund rising move in certain parts of the world.

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 01:48 PM

I know this is off topic but there isnt another thread going about this so I figured I'd just put it here

I was wondering about this on my drive home from work....with today's advanced technology....(and given the fact that flights are now letting passengers have wireless service) would it be that difficult to have the black box and cockpit voice recorders, gps tracking whatevers etc set to where while they are recording data, its simultaneously transmitting wirelessly to "somewhere" on the other end to be recorded as well? At least until the system that controlled it failed? I know it wouldnt replace finding those things, but wouldnt it help in situations like this where they have NO clue what happened?

biznatch · 06-02-2009, 02:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I know this is off topic but there isnt another thread going about this so I figured I'd just put it here

I was wondering about this on my drive home from work....with today's advanced technology....(and given the fact that flights are now letting passengers have wireless service) would it be that difficult to have the black box and cockpit voice recorders, gps tracking whatevers etc set to where while they are recording data, its simultaneously transmitting wirelessly to "somewhere" on the other end to be recorded as well? At least until the system that controlled it failed? I know it wouldnt replace finding those things, but wouldnt it help in situations like this where they have NO clue what happened?

I think that certainly could be done, technologically, and for a while now.
My guess is that it could become more of a concern for security purposes, people listening in to what they're not supposed to. So interception would probably be really hard to avoid.

If people could intercept a plane's GPS coordinates in real time, that would be very scary.

ShaniFaye · 06-02-2009, 02:15 PM

I know but surely there would be a work around for it. If I can get online and track any flight Dave is on within 10 minutes of real time (and thats pretty darn close for me) there has to be a way for them to securely transmit the data to whatever agency is tracking them at the time

Somebody help me invent this so we can be rich lol

Slims · 06-02-2009, 02:56 PM

Even if it were a terrorist attack, since the plane apparently experienced an event so catastrophic the pilots didn't have time to put out a mayday we may not know for a long time (if ever) why the plane sank, either way.

But if it is discovered to be terrorism, I don't think the odds of keeping that a secret are very good...someone involved will leak it and then the government would be embarrassed by trying to cover it up. Even if the government were not motivated by the public good, they would release the information in order to avoid the inevitable scandal that would follow a concealment.

Martian · 06-02-2009, 03:00 PM

The big problem I see with something like that isn't technological, but logistical. The kind of device you're talking about could be assembled by a half-way competent electronics geek using off-the-shelf components from your local Radio Shack. The problem is that there's only so many satellites in the sky, and only so many frequencies they can use to communicate. I don't pretend to know how many commercial aircraft circle the globe on a daily basis, so let's just rough it and say a fucking lot. Each one would need bandwidth allocated for all the data. If we're talking co-ordinates, that's one thing. CVR, that's a big chunk more. Telemetry, things start to get crazy. I'm not doing the numbers here so I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem terribly likely to me that there's enough bandwidth available to support this for every plane in the sky, which defeats the purpose.

Regarding the Air France crash, though, I think you're right. The whole point of terrorist attacks is to inspire terror; hence the name. A freak storm bringing down a plane might make some people afraid to fly, but it doesn't have the same impact as a deliberate attack. The very fact that nobody's claimed this seems to be evidence that it wasn't a man made disaster.

Charlatan · 06-02-2009, 03:40 PM

If this was a terrorist attack, you wouldn't have to wait for the government to release anything. There would be terrorists jumping up and down saying, "That was me! I did that!"

Which would beg the question, why would you blow up a plane in the middle of the Ocean when you could do it over a populated centre for greater impact?

They found the debris this morning so I am sure we will eventually get some sort of answer on this.

inBOIL · 06-02-2009, 05:05 PM

If this were a terrorist attack, it would just be more support for the existence of the war on terror. I don't think the government would be reluctant to publicize it.

biznatch · 06-02-2009, 05:06 PM

Charlatan put it in the right words, it just doesn't make sense for a terrorist to do it this way and without gloating about it.

Tully Mars · 06-02-2009, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

I know but surely there would be a work around for it. If I can get online and track any flight Dave is on within 10 minutes of real time (and thats pretty darn close for me) there has to be a way for them to securely transmit the data to whatever agency is tracking them at the time

Somebody help me invent this so we can be rich lol

I think the problem with what you're talking about at the moment is there are huge black out spots for sat. coverage in the mid to South Atlantic, Indian Ocean and to a lesser extent the South Pacific. No sat coverage, no GPS.

---------- Post added at 09:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:53 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

If this was a terrorist attack, you wouldn't have to wait for the government to release anything. There would be terrorists jumping up and down saying, "That was me! I did that!"

Which would beg the question, why would you blow up a plane in the middle of the Ocean when you could do it over a populated centre for greater impact?

They found the debris this morning so I am sure we will eventually get some sort of answer on this.

I agree. If some terrorist group did this they'd take credit asap.

As for answers I think they may be slow in coming. Most of the reports I've read have the plane going down in waters somewhere between 6500-10,000ft. That's freaking deep water. The Titanic sits at about 12,000ft., so a little deeper. But really anything even close to that depth and you're talking maybe 6-8 (basing this number on conversations on a dive site I use, don't really know for sure) vessels in the world with diving capability like that. The weather on the surface is an issue. The weather there right now sucks and I don't think they'd try a dive to recover anything in it. Could be months before that changes. Then there's the issue of finding the black box. It has a "ping" device attached but they have no idea, as of the last report I read, whether it's working and won't know if it's still attached to the actually box until they retrieve it. The Brazilian Navy has the tech to find the pinging unit but not to recover it.

Long and short is this isn't going to be like TWA 800 that went down in a few hundred feet of water off the coast of Long island NY. Where they were able to literally recover and rebuild the craft. This planes in the middle of no where at a serious depth.

Snowgirl · 06-02-2009, 07:38 PM

So, what I find strange is, we are a culture enamored with the cell phones. And not a one person on board had a chance to turn on the phone and call a relative or a friend like in the 9/11 hijacking of that plane. Not one person? Not one distress call from any of the three experienced pilots? I realize it was night and several passengers were likely asleep, but the type of turbulence. Loss of cabin pressure wakes me up. I don't get it.

dippin · 06-02-2009, 07:48 PM

As many people have mentioned, a terrorist organization would have claimed it already. After all, if something is a terrorist attack and no one knows it, it doesnt terrorize anyone.

Furthermore, the two countries involved, Brazil and France, have been fairly critical of the war on terror, so I guess the US and Britain would actually have more of a vested interest to make it known publicly as quickly as possible if this was the case.

---------- Post added at 07:48 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:46 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowgirl

So, what I find strange is, we are a culture enamored with the cell phones. And not a one person on board had a chance to turn on the phone and call a relative or a friend like in the 9/11 hijacking of that plane. Not one person? Not one distress call from any of the three experienced pilots? I realize it was night and several passengers were likely asleep, but the type of turbulence. Loss of cabin pressure wakes me up. I don't get it.

The problem with that is that this airplane was over 700 miles away from any coast. No signal for a cell, etc.

ASU2003 · 06-02-2009, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dippin

As many people have mentioned, a terrorist organization would have claimed it already. After all, if something is a terrorist attack and no one knows it, it doesnt terrorize anyone.

Maybe the terrorists are getting smarter, if planes start dropping out of the sky once a week, and no one knows how or who is behind it, it puts a different twist on things. It would definitely start to terrorize people if you don't know if your plane might be next.

But, what I worry about is that if they do find explosive residue somehow, then they would cover it up since there would be nothing to gain from confirming that terrorists blew up a plane at this stage.

dippin · 06-02-2009, 09:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ASU2003

Maybe the terrorists are getting smarter, if planes start dropping out of the sky once a week, and no one knows how or who is behind it, it puts a different twist on things. It would definitely start to terrorize people if you don't know if your plane might be next.

But, what I worry about is that if they do find explosive residue somehow, then they would cover it up since there would be nothing to gain from confirming that terrorists blew up a plane at this stage.

but terrorism is done with a goal in mind. Not to claim authorship or make demands would simply make no sense.

Charlatan · 06-02-2009, 11:14 PM

If the terrorists don't take credit for something how can they brag about their accomplishments at the pub during happy hour?

Tully Mars · 06-03-2009, 04:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowgirl

So, what I find strange is, we are a culture enamored with the cell phones. And not a one person on board had a chance to turn on the phone and call a relative or a friend like in the 9/11 hijacking of that plane. Not one person? Not one distress call from any of the three experienced pilots? I realize it was night and several passengers were likely asleep, but the type of turbulence. Loss of cabin pressure wakes me up. I don't get it.

I seriously doubt there's cell coverage where the plane went down.

Pilots may have not had a chance to do a thing. Any number of reasons could have caused the plane to fall apart in mid air. TWA 800 had an explosion that blew the plane into two pieces and sent to the ocean in short order. No distress call, if I remember.

Where's also loss of pressure and complete loss of pressure. You can have a small hole that lead to a whirling sound and you slowly lose pressure or you can have a huge hole that causes sudden and complete loss of pressure. A jet near the Hawaiian Islands lost part of top fuselage. Rip off in mid air, think three of four people flew out of the plane straight out of their seats. That happened in nice weather and near a safe place to land. The Air France plane was in really bad weather and in the middle of no where.

I don't think there anyway to know what happened. This morning they're saying they are not optimistic they'll ever find the black boxes.

Here's an article talking about the difficulties-

Quote:

French officials said today there were no signs of problems with Air France Flight 447 before takeoff and it was unclear whether the chief pilot was at the controls when the plane plunged into the Atlantic Ocean.

The head of France's accident investigation agency, Paul-Louis Arslanian, also said he was "not optimistic" that rescuers would recover the plane's black boxes miles underwater.

Pilots on long-haul flights often take turns at the controls to remain alert. Asked whether the chief pilot was in the cockpit when the plane went down, Arslanian told a news conference in France that there was no information either way.

"We don't even know the exact time of the accident," he said.

But Arslanian said there was no indication of problems with the plane before it left Rio de Janeiro on Sunday night en route to Paris.

At the search scene Brazilian navy divers rushed to reach the wreckage and start retrieving debris from the Atlantic.

Four navy ships with recovery equipment and a tanker were heading to a three mile (5km) strip of water strewn with plane seats, an orange buoy, wiring, metal pieces and jet fuel stains about 745 miles north-east of the coastal city of Recife.

As the navy battled rough weather, officials warned of the difficulty in finding the flight data and voice recorders – the black boxes – that hold clues to why the plane crashed during a severe storm in the middle of the night.

Officials said the recorders needed to identify the causes of the mysterious crash could be on the ocean floor at a depth of 6,600 to 9,800 feet (2,000 to 3,000 metres).

The recorders are designed to send homing signals for up to 30 days when they hit water.

One expert said it could be among the hardest recoveries since the decades-long search to find the Titanic.

"If you think how long it took to find the Titanic and that the debris would be smaller, you are looking for a needle in haystack," said Derek Clarke, joint managing director of Aberdeen-based Divex, which designs and builds military and commercial diving equipment.

However, the Brazilian president, Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, said he was confident that the black boxes – two separate devices containing cockpit voice recordings and instrument data – offer the best chance of finding out why the Airbus jetliner vanished. .

"I think a country that can find oil 6,000 metres under the ocean can find a plane 2,000 metres down," he told reporters yesterday in Guatemala, referring to recent oil finds by Brazil's state energy company in ultra-deep waters.

Officials from the US National Transportation Safety Board and from Eurocontrol say that investigators have many ways to begin investigating the accident even before they recover any wreckage or the black boxes.

"Investigators will have to do a forensic analysis, by piecing together all available information as best they can," said Jim Hall, a former chairman of the NTSB.

They will review the maintenance records of the aircraft, interview the crews who flew the plane in the last few weeks and go to the locations where recent maintenance was done to interview mechanics.

They will also study the personal histories of the crew members and reconstruct what they did in the last 36 hours before the crash.

"In other words, they'll be compiling as much background information as they can to compensate for the lack of other data," Hall said

Deltona Couple · 06-03-2009, 11:38 AM

Another thing to consider, is that even if they DO find the "black box" (which is actually yellow, go figure!) There is no guarantee that it will be in condition to do anything with. These boxes, while air tight, have just that, air in them. At a depth of 10k feet, the pressures that the ocean waters make at that depth could easily crush it, allowing salt water inside. Most everyone knows that electronic devices and salt water do NOT get along well. Let's just hope that they DO recover it, and find out what happened.

telekinetic · 06-03-2009, 11:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by inBOIL

If this were a terrorist attack, it would just be more support for the existence of the war on terror. I don't think the government would be reluctant to publicize it.

QFT...The people who would be in the position to know are the same ones pushing for more TSA funding, why would they suppress?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snowgirl

So, what I find strange is, we are a culture enamored with the cell phones. And not a one person on board had a chance to turn on the phone and call a relative or a friend like in the 9/11 hijacking of that plane. Not one person? Not one distress call from any of the three experienced pilots? I realize it was night and several passengers were likely asleep, but the type of turbulence. Loss of cabin pressure wakes me up. I don't get it.

Cell phones: *Not* magic communicator boxes.

Regarding telemetry information: if the FAA is leery of me having an ipod on, I think the amount of testing and cost to add a couple megawatt transmitter would be pretty prohibitive.

The technology for that kind of data linkup isn't even CLOSE to new...what exactly do you think flies the UAV's? And that's TWO way!

fresnelly · 06-03-2009, 11:55 AM

Back to the OP, I do think the assorted agencies will suppress wildly bogus claims of responsibility if intelligence classifies them as such.

No sense in fomenting (my $$ word for the day) panic.

ShaniFaye · 06-03-2009, 04:44 PM

has anyone else picked up on this?

More debris found from Air France plane crash - CNN.com

Quote:

Some investigators have noted that the plane flew through a severe lightning storm. Foul play has not been ruled out.

Air France had received a bomb threat May 27 for a flight from Buenos Aires, Argentina, to Paris, sources in the Argentine military and police told CNN on Wednesday.

According to the officials, who had been briefed on the incident and declined to be identified because of the ongoing investigation, the Air France office in Buenos Aires received the threat from a man speaking Spanish.

Authorities checked the Boeing 777 and did not find anything. Security was tightened during check-in for Flight 415, which left on time and without incident, the officials said.

Charlatan · 06-03-2009, 05:23 PM

I just found out that a student who attended my wife's school last year was on the flight. He was flying as an unaccompanied minor at the time.

Tully Mars · 06-03-2009, 06:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Deltona Couple

Another thing to consider, is that even if they DO find the "black box" (which is actually yellow, go figure!) There is no guarantee that it will be in condition to do anything with. These boxes, while air tight, have just that, air in them. At a depth of 10k feet, the pressures that the ocean waters make at that depth could easily crush it, allowing salt water inside. Most everyone knows that electronic devices and salt water do NOT get along well. Let's just hope that they DO recover it, and find out what happened.

I think you mean they're orange.

Other that that I agree completely with your comments. That deep water, that's a lot pressure. It's completely possible they locate the "pingers' and find them detached from the data recorders. Then the odds of finding the data is near zip.

---------- Post added at 09:00 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by ShaniFaye

has anyone else picked up on this?

More debris found from Air France plane crash - CNN.com

Wow that's creepy.

---------- Post added at 09:01 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:00 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

I just found out that a student who attended my wife's school last year was on the flight. He was flying as an unaccompanied minor at the time.

How sad. Did she know him well? Is she doing alright?

ShaniFaye · 06-03-2009, 06:10 PM

Im so sorry to hear that Charlatan.....give her a hug from us

Charlatan · 06-03-2009, 07:44 PM

She's OK, the school is in a bit of shock. I just can't help but think of the kids parents. I've sent my own son on flights as an unaccompanied minor. Just to know that your child would be alone in that sort of situation. Horrible to contemplate.

Tully Mars · 06-03-2009, 08:13 PM

I knew a lady, Susan Hill, who went down with TWA 800. By knew I mean I'd met her at several meetings and trainings. She was a detective out of Portland. I, as well almost everyone I worked with, followed the investigation. When it turned out to be a freak gas tank thing (likely) it was almost a let down. Like if she gone down in an attack things would have been better? I can't explain why we felt the way we felt. Maybe we would would have been unhappy with any results?

dippin · 06-03-2009, 08:26 PM

the latest from Brazilian and French authorities is that evidence points to the plane breaking apart in the air, but that given the amount of fuel spread on the water it is unlikely that there was an explosion or fire.

Apparently, there have been known instances of electric malfunction in this type of airbus, and that the plane is designed to automatically do certain maneuvers in certain situations, and the pilot has no ability to override it. In two Qantas incidents, the A330 suddenly pointed its nose down, but the crew reversed it (not before injuring several people). A move like that in the middle of the storm could have sent the airplane out of control.

---------- Post added at 08:26 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:18 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

I knew a lady, Susan Hill, who went down with TWA 800. By knew I mean I'd met her at several meetings and trainings. She was a detective out of Portland. I, as well almost everyone I worked with, followed the investigation. When it turned out to be a freak gas tank thing (likely) it was almost a let down. Like if she gone down in an attack things would have been better? I can't explain why we felt the way we felt. Maybe we would would have been unhappy with any results?

Not to derail the thread, but I think people simply have a problem accepting random events. We can't deal with major catastrophe caused by minor events, it's as is the equation is unbalanced.

Charlatan · 06-04-2009, 05:21 PM

I just read that some of the debris they found did not come from the Air France flight.

Just random stuff floating in the sea, or perhaps indication of a mid-air collision? Don't know yet.

ShaniFaye · 06-04-2009, 05:38 PM

Yeah I was just sitting here wondering how many parts of different planes could you find in the same area they thought it went down....its kinda in the middle of NO WHERE, but wouldnt we know if there was another plane missing?

Tully Mars · 06-05-2009, 02:20 AM

CNN was just saying that what they found was stuff like wooden pallets, stuff that planes just wouldn't carry. But there's like there debris fields. I don't think they've recovered stuff from all of them. I still think one's got to be the planes.

biznatch · 06-05-2009, 11:19 AM

This seriously a freaky accident. I can't even imagine how the victims' families must feel at this point, with all these unanswered questions.

Tully Mars · 06-06-2009, 03:47 PM

Looks like they actual found stuff now, including a few victims.

Story here

Tully Mars · 06-07-2009, 11:42 AM

More victims and more "stuff."

Story here

Cynthetiq · 06-07-2009, 11:44 AM

I find this quite interesting that they are finally finding things.

I'm reminded of the Bermuda Triangle and it seems very possible that all those mysterious disappearances are more normal than anything else. With all the technology and resources we have we're only getting what we've gotten in this current crisis.

Charlatan · 06-07-2009, 03:45 PM

The latest theory is that there was something wrong with the air speed sensors. One of the automated messages that was received indicated that there was an issue with airspeed. The sensors were slated to be replaced.

One article I read suggested that without proper knowledge of airspeed it could be disastrous... if too slow, the plane risks a stall, if too fast the plane risks breaking up as it gets closer to the speed of sound (the skin of the plane is not engineered to withstand that speed).

Yikes.

Tully Mars · 06-07-2009, 04:43 PM

Vne. Speed a pilot is never to exceed in an aircraft. Every craft has a different set of V speeds.

V Speeds

I know jack shit about flying anything other then single engine prop planes. But I'd hazard a guess there no way that Airbus could get anywhere near Mach 1. Well, maybe vertically headed down.

---------- Post added at 07:43 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:25 PM ----------

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tully Mars

Vne. Speed a pilot is never to exceed in an aircraft. Every craft has a different set of V speeds.

V Speeds

I know jack shit about flying anything other then single engine prop planes. But I'd hazard a guess there no way that Airbus could get anywhere near Mach 1. Well, maybe vertically headed down.

Edit: Looks like max airspeed for the Airbus is 615. Mach 1 is 750, I think I'm not looking it up. That's a little closer then I thought. With a throttles full open and a tail wind maybe it could get damn close to the speed of sound.

06-02-2009, 08:52 AM	#1 (permalink)
ASU2003 immoral minority Location: Back in Ohio	If the Air France crash was a terrorist attack, would they tell us? This wouldn't be a good time economically for the airlines to suffer from terrorism fears now would it? Now, I am only speculating that it could be a reason for a plane to go down over the ocean, there could also be a catastrophic mechanical failure, a major electric failure, ice/weather, or a terrorist attack. I haven't heard or seen any groups claiming responsibility (even if they are lying), but I am wondering how they already know it was weather related, and can rule out a terrorist bomb already. Did they hear any communication from the pilots prior to the crash? Am I paranoid since I think the truth is what they want it to be?

06-02-2009, 09:02 AM	#3 (permalink)
The_Jazz Asshole Administrator Location: Chicago	I've actually heard that they have NOT ruled out a bomb or other kind of attack. As I've read it, weather is just the most likely suspect at the moment, given that they were flying into a pretty massive storm. That makes a missle attack unlikely, which just leaves the bomb theory. Which is the one that really worries me since the Shoe Bomber intended to do something very similar - crash a plane in the deep ocean. __________________ "They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin "There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush "We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

06-02-2009, 09:27 AM	#4 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	If a storm wasn't a factor, then it would increase the likelihood. Turbulence alone isn't a heck of a lot to bring a plane down. It would have to be a combination of other issues, such as mechanical failure, pilot error, etc., if not terrorism. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

06-02-2009, 09:40 AM	#5 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I might be stupid, but if it were a terrorist attack wouldnt it be done in such a way that there really wasnt a chance of blaming a storm so they could get the credit? Terrorist rarely doing anything without wanting all the credit for it that they can get __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-02-2009, 09:47 AM	#6 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Has anyone taken credit for it? Seems like even when it's accident some whack job groups jump up to claim "we did it!" I think it's a good fund rising move in certain parts of the world. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

06-02-2009, 01:48 PM	#7 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I know this is off topic but there isnt another thread going about this so I figured I'd just put it here I was wondering about this on my drive home from work....with today's advanced technology....(and given the fact that flights are now letting passengers have wireless service) would it be that difficult to have the black box and cockpit voice recorders, gps tracking whatevers etc set to where while they are recording data, its simultaneously transmitting wirelessly to "somewhere" on the other end to be recorded as well? At least until the system that controlled it failed? I know it wouldnt replace finding those things, but wouldnt it help in situations like this where they have NO clue what happened? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-02-2009, 02:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	I know but surely there would be a work around for it. If I can get online and track any flight Dave is on within 10 minutes of real time (and thats pretty darn close for me) there has to be a way for them to securely transmit the data to whatever agency is tracking them at the time Somebody help me invent this so we can be rich lol __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-02-2009, 02:56 PM	#10 (permalink)
Slims Eccentric insomniac Location: North Carolina	Even if it were a terrorist attack, since the plane apparently experienced an event so catastrophic the pilots didn't have time to put out a mayday we may not know for a long time (if ever) why the plane sank, either way. But if it is discovered to be terrorism, I don't think the odds of keeping that a secret are very good...someone involved will leak it and then the government would be embarrassed by trying to cover it up. Even if the government were not motivated by the public good, they would release the information in order to avoid the inevitable scandal that would follow a concealment. __________________ "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery." - Winston Churchill "All men dream: but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity: but the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act out their dream with open eyes, to make it possible." Seven Pillars of Wisdom, T.E. Lawrence

06-02-2009, 03:00 PM	#11 (permalink)
Martian Young Crumudgeon Location: Canada	The big problem I see with something like that isn't technological, but logistical. The kind of device you're talking about could be assembled by a half-way competent electronics geek using off-the-shelf components from your local Radio Shack. The problem is that there's only so many satellites in the sky, and only so many frequencies they can use to communicate. I don't pretend to know how many commercial aircraft circle the globe on a daily basis, so let's just rough it and say a fucking lot. Each one would need bandwidth allocated for all the data. If we're talking co-ordinates, that's one thing. CVR, that's a big chunk more. Telemetry, things start to get crazy. I'm not doing the numbers here so I could be wrong, but it just doesn't seem terribly likely to me that there's enough bandwidth available to support this for every plane in the sky, which defeats the purpose. Regarding the Air France crash, though, I think you're right. The whole point of terrorist attacks is to inspire terror; hence the name. A freak storm bringing down a plane might make some people afraid to fly, but it doesn't have the same impact as a deliberate attack. The very fact that nobody's claimed this seems to be evidence that it wasn't a man made disaster. __________________ I wake up in the morning more tired than before I slept I get through cryin' and I'm sadder than before I wept I get through thinkin' now, and the thoughts have left my head I get through speakin' and I can't remember, not a word that I said - Ben Harper, Show Me A Little Shame

06-02-2009, 03:40 PM	#12 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	If this was a terrorist attack, you wouldn't have to wait for the government to release anything. There would be terrorists jumping up and down saying, "That was me! I did that!" Which would beg the question, why would you blow up a plane in the middle of the Ocean when you could do it over a populated centre for greater impact? They found the debris this morning so I am sure we will eventually get some sort of answer on this. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-02-2009, 05:05 PM	#13 (permalink)
inBOIL I have eaten the slaw	If this were a terrorist attack, it would just be more support for the existence of the war on terror. I don't think the government would be reluctant to publicize it. __________________ And you believe Bush and the liberals and divorced parents and gays and blacks and the Christian right and fossil fuels and Xbox are all to blame, meanwhile you yourselves create an ad where your kid hits you in the head with a baseball and you don't understand the message that the problem is you.

06-02-2009, 05:06 PM	#14 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	Charlatan put it in the right words, it just doesn't make sense for a terrorist to do it this way and without gloating about it. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

06-02-2009, 07:38 PM	#16 (permalink)
Snowgirl Upright	So, what I find strange is, we are a culture enamored with the cell phones. And not a one person on board had a chance to turn on the phone and call a relative or a friend like in the 9/11 hijacking of that plane. Not one person? Not one distress call from any of the three experienced pilots? I realize it was night and several passengers were likely asleep, but the type of turbulence. Loss of cabin pressure wakes me up. I don't get it.

06-02-2009, 11:14 PM	#20 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	If the terrorists don't take credit for something how can they brag about their accomplishments at the pub during happy hour? __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-03-2009, 11:38 AM	#22 (permalink)
Deltona Couple Addict Location: Spring, Texas	Another thing to consider, is that even if they DO find the "black box" (which is actually yellow, go figure!) There is no guarantee that it will be in condition to do anything with. These boxes, while air tight, have just that, air in them. At a depth of 10k feet, the pressures that the ocean waters make at that depth could easily crush it, allowing salt water inside. Most everyone knows that electronic devices and salt water do NOT get along well. Let's just hope that they DO recover it, and find out what happened. __________________ "It is not that I have failed, but that I have found 10,000 ways that it DOESN'T work!" --Thomas Edison

06-03-2009, 11:55 AM	#24 (permalink)
fresnelly Functionally Appropriate Location: Toronto	Back to the OP, I do think the assorted agencies will suppress wildly bogus claims of responsibility if intelligence classifies them as such. No sense in fomenting (my $$ word for the day) panic. __________________ Building an artificial intelligence that appreciates Mozart is easy. Building an A.I. that appreciates a theme restaurant is the real challenge - Kit Roebuck - Nine Planets Without Intelligent Life

06-03-2009, 05:23 PM	#26 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I just found out that a student who attended my wife's school last year was on the flight. He was flying as an unaccompanied minor at the time. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-03-2009, 06:10 PM	#28 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Im so sorry to hear that Charlatan.....give her a hug from us __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-03-2009, 07:44 PM	#29 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	She's OK, the school is in a bit of shock. I just can't help but think of the kids parents. I've sent my own son on flights as an unaccompanied minor. Just to know that your child would be alone in that sort of situation. Horrible to contemplate. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-03-2009, 08:13 PM	#30 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	I knew a lady, Susan Hill, who went down with TWA 800. By knew I mean I'd met her at several meetings and trainings. She was a detective out of Portland. I, as well almost everyone I worked with, followed the investigation. When it turned out to be a freak gas tank thing (likely) it was almost a let down. Like if she gone down in an attack things would have been better? I can't explain why we felt the way we felt. Maybe we would would have been unhappy with any results? __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

06-04-2009, 05:21 PM	#32 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	I just read that some of the debris they found did not come from the Air France flight. Just random stuff floating in the sea, or perhaps indication of a mid-air collision? Don't know yet. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

06-04-2009, 05:38 PM	#33 (permalink)
ShaniFaye Submit to me, you know you want to Location: Lilburn, Ga	Yeah I was just sitting here wondering how many parts of different planes could you find in the same area they thought it went down....its kinda in the middle of NO WHERE, but wouldnt we know if there was another plane missing? __________________ *I want the diabetic plan that comes with rollover carbs. I dont like the unused one expiring at midnite!!*

06-05-2009, 02:20 AM	#34 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	CNN was just saying that what they found was stuff like wooden pallets, stuff that planes just wouldn't carry. But there's like there debris fields. I don't think they've recovered stuff from all of them. I still think one's got to be the planes. __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

06-05-2009, 11:19 AM	#35 (permalink)
biznatch Junkie Location: France	This seriously a freaky accident. I can't even imagine how the victims' families must feel at this point, with all these unanswered questions. __________________ Check it out: The Open Source/Freeware/Gratis Software Thread

06-06-2009, 03:47 PM	#36 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	Looks like they actual found stuff now, including a few victims. Story here __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

06-07-2009, 11:42 AM	#37 (permalink)
Tully Mars Living in a Warmer Insanity Super Moderator Location: Yucatan, Mexico	More victims and more "stuff." Story here __________________ I used to drink to drown my sorrows, but the damned things have learned how to swim- Frida Kahlo Vice President Starkizzer Fan Club

06-07-2009, 11:44 AM	#38 (permalink)
Cynthetiq Tilted Cat Head Administrator Location: Manhattan, NY	I find this quite interesting that they are finally finding things. I'm reminded of the Bermuda Triangle and it seems very possible that all those mysterious disappearances are more normal than anything else. With all the technology and resources we have we're only getting what we've gotten in this current crisis. __________________ I don't care if you are black, white, purple, green, Chinese, Japanese, Korean, hippie, cop, bum, admin, user, English, Irish, French, Catholic, Protestant, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, indian, cowboy, tall, short, fat, skinny, emo, punk, mod, rocker, straight, gay, lesbian, jock, nerd, geek, Democrat, Republican, Libertarian, Independent, driver, pedestrian, or bicyclist, either you're an asshole or you're not. What's the best nation in the world? DO-NATION!

06-07-2009, 03:45 PM	#39 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	The latest theory is that there was something wrong with the air speed sensors. One of the automated messages that was received indicated that there was an issue with airspeed. The sensors were slated to be replaced. One article I read suggested that without proper knowledge of airspeed it could be disastrous... if too slow, the plane risks a stall, if too fast the plane risks breaking up as it gets closer to the speed of sound (the skin of the plane is not engineered to withstand that speed). Yikes. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke