That's extremely insulting to people of the Muslim faith. We have members of this forum who are Muslim. I wouldn't let them call Jesus a pedophile any more then I will allow you to make such unsupported claims regarding Islamic teachings.

Consider this your one warning.

Jews worship Jesus?

they do. those assholes loves little boys just a little less than priests.

its ironic that you think that christians that commit atrocities in the name of their religion are not christians, but muslims who do are fulfilling their their religious obligation.

if god didnt create homosexuality, then why are these muslims and priests boy-lovers then?

surely jesus, a loving, compassionate god, lord and saviour came to save all humanity and not just christians and jews. did he not?

Buddy you need to go Read the Constitution and obey it.
Gun control is Anti Human Rights. Gun control lead to the slaughter of the Jews/Christians/NonAyrans and Non Muslims. Dictators world wide love gun control.
China has gun control and has run down students with tanks who were protesting for freedom of speech. Now China has banned tv shows with the time travel theme.
Gun control helped Syria gun down protestors.
Hitler and KKK both loved gun control. gun control made it easy for the kkk to lynch people who were not blond haired and blue eyed But its just Hope and Change.

---------- Post added at 09:34 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:31 PM ----------

Its ironic you back gun control aka Jew/black control but you have a picture of a person with a gun in your avatar.

i can only assume he's talking about Jews for Jesus.

Jews for Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

but then again, you cant assume anything here in this argument.

i love when liberals Attack America and defend Islam but hey i cant wait to post these comments on Youtube

You might find a larger audience over on youtube for your nonsense... I suggest you go there now. You could even stay there. Just a thought.

longliveusa, I thought you worshiped Jesus.... Don't you follow his teachings?

the teaching of Jesus do not say be a slave

firstly im not your buddy.

secondly, im not an american so im not bound by your constitution. i have no reason to obey it. nor will i.

thirdly have you even been to Syria? or even know how it's government works and why things that are happening are happening? have you travelled outside of your state?

fourthly, if you really wanted security and safety, you should go live in the middle east. you have no idea what you're talking about. thats the safest area ive ever travelled to...and guess what? no guns!

fifthly, you shouldnt assume that im a pro or anti gun control because i enlighted you on a fact. GWB did some great work too. It doesnt mean i agree with everything he did.

Ok I'll bite... where did he say that?

Tully Mars why do you Mexicans let the government ban guns yet let all the violence go on? Why is the Mexican Government trying to sue US Gun Manufactures but not fighting against the drug cartels

Since I'm not Mexican, yet another conclusion you jumped to in error, I really can't answer that question.

Going tell me where and how "the teaching of Jesus do not say be a slave?"

Gun control is slavery you are the one who need to go study History.
they had gun control at Va Tech and 32 students + a Jewish Professor as well as a survivor of the Holocaust died yep those gun free zones sure do work
Dad who split up fight MacDonald's shot dead - in UK
Dad who split up fight in McDonald's shot dead - mirror.co.uk More gun control
America has 20,000 Plus gun control laws and the most violent cities are the ones with gun control laws
Prohibition was supposed to stop crime and but it only increased crime and shootouts which killed police and civilians.
Swiss just recently had a Referendum about putting gun control in place and it totally failed
Japanese Admiral Stated you can not invade America cause behind every blade of grass their would be a gun
Canada has a Multi Billion gun registration program but its failing and the Canadians are Pi**ed off about the control freaks

---------- Post added at 09:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 PM ----------

Funny your Profile Location says you are in Mexico
Super Moderator
Location: Yucatan, Mexico

Jesus was about freedom from slavery

i think he said it here

James 1:1 "...a SLAVE of God and of the Lord JESUS CHRIST...".

and here

Romans 1:1 "From Paul, a bond SLAVE of JESUS CHRIST (the Messiah)..."

and here

Ephesians 6:6 "..but as servants (SLAVES) of CHRIST, doing the will of God heartily and with your whole soul."

and here

Deuteronomy 23:15-16: "Thou shalt not deliver unto his master the servant which is escaped from his master unto thee."

and here

Luke 12:45-48: "The lord [owner] of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes. But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more."

Ok I get it... It's opposite day! Yeah! Could explain why you need to the learn and follow the US Constitution and I'm Mexican.

More liberal lies

and here

Ephesians 6:5-9: "Servants, be obedient to them that are your masters according to the flesh, with fear and trembling, in singleness of your heart, as unto Christ; Not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but as the servants of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart; With good will doing service, as to the Lord, and not to men: Knowing that whatsoever good thing any man doeth, the same shall he receive of the Lord, whether he be bond or free. And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him."

the way i see it, jesus is telling his followers to BE slaves. make up yor mind longliveusa

i could go on, but knit-picking textural references is asinine.

I've also lived in Japan, Hong Kong, Africa, Korea, Indonesia and have spent considerable time in several other countries. Doesn't make me Asian, African or Mexican.

So if Jesus was about freedom from slavery, being all knowing about history and religions, you should have no problem finding some quotes to source.

Poor liberal who hates freedom and loves White Power started gun control

More ill informed, uneducated conservative misinformation.

no that's liberal misinformation.
Buy Liberals loved Racist gun control laws Like Robert Byrd/Ted Kennedy but he also loved abusing women. But that's not a shocker a kennedy was booted out of England for aiding Hitler.
Gun control really works so well in fact that All Dictators started with the aid of gun control. And the Swiss loved gun control much they voted against the recent Proposal to control guns

---

-+-{Important TFP Staff Message}-+- longliveusa, you're bordering on flaming other members, which is against the rules of this community. If you're not able to have a polite discussion, then you will find that you're unwelcome to make your argument here. Those are our rules, and we enforce them consistently.

I think Jesus would disagree with your position on Islam, loveliveusa.....

But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

—Matthew 5:44

For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

—Matthew 7:2

Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

—Matthew 7:12

An ambulance rolled up - a state trooper close behind
Tweeter took his gun away and messed up his mind...

Elvis has left the building.

Night all.

how am i flaming people?????? explain

---------- Post added at 10:25 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:20 PM ----------

well its apparent this forum hates freedom why waste time on this topic when the people have already formed their opinion from the liberal media!!!!

Thus far you haven't -that's why I said you're bordering on it. But you've gotten close. You've made derogatory comments that are close to the line but don't cross it. So long as you continue to stay on the right side, you'll be able to continue the discussion. Fail in that task and you'll quickly find yourself outside.

wasnt jesus a muslim? i could have sworn they taught you that in Quran sunday school in the Madrassas of Rajastan

longliveusa, the aim isnt to win people over to 'your side'..we're not the lost sheep of the house of Israel that jesus refers to. its all about discussion and an exchange of ideas. if you have another topic we would be happy to discuss

I like to think if Jesus existed he was a Buddhist, but that's not important.

Getting back on track, the NRA has to bear some serious responsibility for the unnecessary armament of American conservatives by scaring up paranoia every time a Democrat gets elected president. Despite evidence to the contrary, they insist that fundamental changes in gun control, perhaps even outright bans, are just around the corner (and insinuate that following the gun control, the government will do something terrible like interning citizens or political killings), and so gun culture people go out and buy a ton of ammo and guns. It's likely amazing for arms traders and retailers, but for the rest of us, the people who aren't in gun culture, it's disconcerting.

Beyond that, there's revolutionary talk in the dialog that comes and goes. Because lunatics like Beck and his ilk that have a lot of attention, we're hearing a lot about armed resistance against some vague oppressor. Obama getting elected coincided with a massive increase in American militia activity, take from that what you will. We have people showing up to town hall meetings heavily armed. Politically motivated crimes, including domestic terrorism, are up.

There's an element of paranoia to the threat topic, but it's not entirely disconnected from reality.

You mean like this, Will?

NRA chief says Obama re-election threatens guns rights|Arkansas News(Emphases mine)

Jesus, owning guns doesn't automatically equate to 'red-neck-rise-up-against-oppressor-with-my-kalashnikov-ness'

The Constitution reflects a healthy distrust against the concentration of power. The Second Amendment is just a further reflection of that.

And I'm not okay with random diplomats 5,000 miles away agreeing to take away my small arms over some vague notion of 'guns are bad.' Just like how the First Amendment must entail assholes like the Westboro Baptist Church poo-pooing over peoples' funerals, the Second Amendment also comes with its costs. There is also yet to be a conclusive study of gun bans and decrease in violent crime.

Many gun owners are moderates who won't scream 'hitler,' but realize injustices when they see one.

I'd also like to add that the right of self-defense transcends all this hoopla, and is supported by the UN Charter.

Finally, I'm disappointed that people will use such imprecise thinking as to equate guns = 'Right Wing Nutjob.'

I mean exactly like that. It's baseless fearmongering in an attempt to scare people into voting Republican and buying more guns and more ammunition. I find it deplorable, dishonest, and most of all, entirely dishonorable.

Which post(s) are you referring to, KirStang?

Sorta. The "Trinity" thing causes problems as does JC's death.

My point was, basically, if Jews and Christians believe in the same God so do Muslims. I think you're right to some degree but those issues arise after God creates everything. Stuff like who is the chosen messenger of God et el come in at later dates depending on the religion. And the "Trinity" thing is really only a Christian thing.

for what it's worth, i hardly think it's fair to assume that responses to a sequence of kinda wacky posts about from someone who appears to write from deep within the strange lands inhabited by the black helicopter set was intended--by anyone---to refer to all gun owners.

at the same time, it's also not correct to assume that simply because most folk who are in favor of few-to-no limits on gun rights are not of the black helicopter set that therefore there is no black helicopter set.

conservatives are stuck with the black helicopter set in the way others of us are stuck with the sparts.


and this is not to even begin talking about the unfortunate decision on the part of the nra to shift hard to the right for fundraising and mobilization purposes, which folk who are interested in gun ownership and belong for that reason to the nra are also stuck with.

unless you quit. which seems to me only sensible. i mean, if you want to distance yourselves from the far right. but i digress.

as for the theological questions of the differences between islam christianity and judiasm with respect to the prophet vs hypostasis question---one line is that islam came later and was able to learn quite a bit from theological incoherences of post-nicean christianity. it's closer to some of the more logically consistent "alternative" versions of christianity like pelagianism, which dispatched with all the original sin foolishness which, in turn, undercut the need for that incoherent business of the incarnation. so human beings are in control and can shape their own destinies by playing by the rules and atoning when they fuck up. not a whole lot different.

the nicean thing resulted in a conception of human beings as well-and-truly fucked because they carried around with them this nasty adam-chip and so were somehow or another responsible for original sin as a matter of essence. of course, there was no philosophy of essence without plato at the least and, as time went on, aristotle as well. the problem there is that they were also well-and-truly fucked and were therefore burning in hell. whence the harrowing, which is still my favorite little story of the easter season.

compare the versions of the fall story in the qu'ran and old testament. the former is more interesting. things follow in a straight line from there, theologically.

of course, this says little about the ways in which any of the main three book-religions have been made over culturally in order to hold together normative systems of varying degrees of repressive Achievement. but to talk about that would be, again, to digress.

Agreed. I didn't mean to nitpick. I just had the sudden urge to contribute something to the thread without feeding the troll.

Thanks for not taking a baseball to my nieghors new Vette.

Disclaimer: i love guns and everything about them

if gun control begets violence, how is it that the US has 11,000+ gun deaths every year as opposed to Japan, which has single if not barely double digit gun deaths every year?

I really don't want to debate gun control but... everything can't just be about numbers. There are cultural differences too. Plus the Japanese, not to mention many, many other countries do not have the right to bear arms written in their constitution.

I seriously think we'd be better off focusing our efforts on factors leading to violence rather the choice of tool people choose to use when acting violently.

I'm hoping that's the last time I feel like posting on this subject here.

availability isn't a factor?

In the words of a British actor pretending to be an American doctor: "numbers don't lie" -House

EDIT: to put a quote from the good doctor

I'll admit I haven't read the whole thread, but I think there's something very important to consider here.

It is too late to ban guns in America. There are already waaaay too many in circulation to do so successfully. This is not the UK, which has had some measure of success with a gun ban. The US is much, much larger, and is not an island.

This is unfortunate for Mexico, where the US drug market and US gun market are driving the drug wars and arming their footsoldiers.

The ban thing is a bit of a strawman. The vast majority of the left want gun control, not an outright ban. We're a bit concerned about the ease with which people, particularly criminals, can get guns. I'm not a fan of private gun sales, for example. I like background checks.

actually, now that i think about it, i'm surprised that christian-types oppose state bailouts. i augustine is correct about original sin, the whole jesus thing was a bailout.
without it, the business model of being-human could lead to nothing but failure.

That's actually one of the biggest myths being propagated by Mexico and the media...

Mexico's Gun Supply and the 90 Percent Myth | STRATFOR

http://nssf.org/share/images/MexicoChartBlog.gif

And looky here: Grenades hurled at police and security forces:

Gang gun battles, street blockades in Mexico

Grenades are tightly controlled in the US, along with other explosives. What's likely happening is that weapons are flowing in from sources other than the US. While it's true that *some* weapons are moving from the USA to Mexico, the large majority come from other sources--perhaps even from corrupt security forces and the like.

Take this for what it's worth, I've gotten in to a heated debate about this before and would rather not argue it again.

Why are only ~1 out of 10 of those guns coming out of the U.S.? You'd think it would be higher.

The chart is based on guns seized, might be an issue.

Right. Maybe it's more difficult to seize guns originating from the U.S. because the border is larger and likely more porous than others.

Or it could be what guns are favored by the gangs. If they don't want long guns and pistols and are opting for automatic weapons, those are going to be much more difficult to secure in the US.

or the neat pie graphic kirstang posted could sit on studies so methodologically problematic as to be disinformation. but it's cool in paranoia.

Baraka, with all due respect....Mexico's bordered on the South by Guatemala, which has a murder rate twice as high as Mexico's (Source: Central America: The tormented isthmus | The Economist)

Indeed, the 3 states south of Mexico (Guatemala, Honduras and Nicaragua) are mired in a drug war, with over 50% of their inhabitants living in poverty.

It's incredible that, so much murder and violence are happening in the Countries south of Mexico (Panama's murder rate has also doubled in the past 3 years), yet, for all of the Isthmus's lawlessnes and drugs and violence (including many light aircraft using Guatemala as a backwater airport of sorts), it must be the AMERICAN border that's shifting guns south.

Also don't forget the porous Mexican Guatemalan Border.

Mexico's Other Border - National Geographic Magazine

I didn't know the GAO was involved in stuff like that.

I think if I were plotting revolution, it wouldn't hinge on a governmentally protected right.

Perhaps. But with automatic weapons and explosives tightly controlled in the USA, it just seems unlikely that automatic weapons and explosives are originating from the United States.

---------- Post added at 12:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:51 PM ----------

Yea. As cited before in this 10 page thread....Americans aren't nearly as destitute as other countries which fell to civil war. Thankfully, our institutions modulate grievances, and citizens aren't 'disappeared' for questioning the government.

i spent a while fiddling about the the sirpi small arms transfers database

SIPRI Arms Transfers Database — www.sipri.org

but found the interface to be less that intuitive...maybe someone else who's done more work in researching international traffic in small arms for real has better insight into how to access and organize this data?

if no, i'll leave it here for now and maybe return to the question should another occasion arise in a different thread...

Yet nearly all the black market cash and the most recent focus of the Mexican government is US 100 bill. Do you also find it hard to believe they come from the US?

---------- Post added at 12:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:29 PM ----------

Also BK look at this graph again-

http://nssf.org/share/images/MexicoChartBlog.gif

What exactly are the "other sources" mentioned?

I'd also contend that the total number of "seized" weapons seems awfully low. My guess is there are two reasons for this- first, a lot of seized weapons never make it to any official location. They're either sold or kept by the seizing officials. Second, so many LEO here are on the drug lords payroll I'd guess the % of gun seized as compared to the number of guns in the country is extremely low.

I'm just guessing but I base those guesses on newspaper and other news reports here in Mexico.

Yea, but unlike U.S. $100 bills, Russia, Bulgaria, S. Africa, China, Brazil and a host of other countries make guns.

but not at anywhere near the scale the united states does.

it's implausible that the united states is not a primary source of these weapons, just as it's implausible that the love canal is the cleanest spot in the united states.

that said, at this point, i've nothing more to go on than a sense of implausibility. and frankly i've no idea how a coherent inventory would be taken.

I'm a little skeptical of your claim, given the 55 million of foreign made AKs flowing around in the world...

But if you're sure and can back up the small arms claim with concrete numbers and a semi-legitimate source, I'd gladly say you're right.

There's also a whole body of ITAR laws for the exportation US made small arms, too.

well, the sirpi database is pretty definitive, but like i said i haven't the time at the moment to fight through the counter-intuitive interface to access the data.

To be fair, a great many guns were submitted for tracing that weren't successfully traced, and many guns weren't submitted for tracing at all.
If the tracing failed, it could be for a number of reasons, including that the guns were not of US origin.
The number could be higher in practice, but it's rather difficult to survey these things.

Of course, that's 3,500 guns that aren't particularly helping Mexico.

I am curious, though; do you have similar data about the drug markets?

Well, I guess that was my subtle point: the data doesn't paint a full picture. It tells us something specific and rather narrow.

It isn't very useful.

So you think they drug cartels smuggle in truck loads of cash from the US and use massive amounts of other resources to get guns from places like China and the Middle East? Exactly how plausible does that honestly sound? I honestly don't think I've read one story where they've intercepted a cash shipment that didn't included and stockpile of weapons including many illegal in the US weapons. At some point Occam's razor kicks in, doesn't it? The drugs go north and the cash and weapons go south. Not exactly a huge secret here south of the border.

So where do hand grenades come from?

i haven't any hand grenade data, but i am confused about the relation between a question concerning small arms traffic and a question concerning hand grenades. how is this not like having a conversation about where hats come from and you insisting on talking about gloves?

Simple. Most of you insist guns and weapons are coming from the USA, since civilians can possess guns.

However, civilians cannot possess handgrenades, which seem to be used extensively by Mexican drug cartels.

So, hand grenades aren't flowing from the North to the South, but most likely through other means--i.e. the Southern Border, or, even, the two masses of water bordering Mexico. If also follows then, that if its easier to smuggle things through the south or through the oceans, then, it's probably easier to smuggle small arms and other explosives through these other routes.

If you don't mind, Id also love to see the cash smuggling articles you've read, Tully.

and what's at stake for you in this question?
what's your commitment to one answer as over against another?

Well there in Spanish and there not on-line so... I have one around here I saved for a friend let me find it and scan it in.

As for hand grenades some really could come from the us and many could come from other countries. I have read stories about drug lords having solid gold automatic rilfes made and they do come from Asia.

I don't argue all guns/weapons come for the US just a vast majority

---------- Post added at 03:57 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:50 PM ----------

Wait, exactly how many and how often do you think grenades are being used down here? And you do realize a lot of what gets reported as a hand grenade in the foreign press gets reported here as a home made explosive device. Sort like IEDs.

I'm just trying to cast legitimate doubt on an oft-cited statistic (90% of guns used in Crimes in Mexico are traceable) in support of stricter US gun laws. With respect to what's my stake, you know I'm a gun nut, so I'm personally invested in dispelling stereotypical claims about guns and gun owners.

Tully, I don't know if I agree with the 'vast majority' claim, but I suppose we'll agree to disagree.

I'm going to bow out now, since I probably spent 2 hours today digging up sources and writing on this topic. Good discussion, though. :)

---------- Post added at 05:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:59 PM ----------

According to WAPO, 72 grenade attacks in 2009-2010, apparently from the Cold War Era.

ah--i wasn't working off that statistic. and now that you note it, i can't imagine how it'd be established one way or another. as for tracking down data, it's kind of difficult to just pull numbers pertaining to these flows out of the air that are legit---the most accurate numbers track flows from specific firms to specific endpoints and so cannot account for the---um---informal traffic. the sources for that would likely be various agencies on both sides of the border concerned with interdiction or dealing with the consequences of all these people who are strapped. and that' s spotty affair, those numbers, by necessity. i suppose there could be some clandestine statistical database but i've never heard of such a thing---just because most folk who want to participate in clandestine networks and/or activities have a kind of commitment to the whole being-clandestine thing.

so one's left with intuitions, really.

i don't have a particular iron in this fire. were i to argue for stricted gun control, it wouldn't be on these grounds anyway.

interesting to see nonetheless. it's like running into a rearguard action from another battle film.

What the Wapo?

Here's an article to muddy the waters for you-

Read the whole thing

I doubt it's 90% and I doubt it's 17%. My guess is it's somewhere in between and we'll never know that number or an accurate number regarding the amount of drugs headed north.

For the record I like guns too. But I think most of the weapons being used come from the US. Rocket launch attacked and military grade weapons are no that common here, pistols and rifles are. But them again "los Zetas' the current biggest player prefers to cut heads off and hang bodies from building and bridges. Don't need a gun for that. Just a good knife and some rope.

Yea, I hate misinformation (even though both sides to the statistic may have their agenda, thus casting doubt on their veracity). Sorry to derail the thread.

Here's a recent example where "Crude explosive device" ends up being reported as a grenade-

Grenade?

And now, for some humor:

http://www.mwilliams.info/images/gunchart.jpg

Only problem I see is the car is actually an HK.

My head hurts.

Of course there's guns there. What there isn't is many guns legally in private hands. I'm also going to guess you're only talking about certain parts of the Middle East.

OK, I found a point I can agree with you on. The history of gun control is racist. Other than that...you're making the rest of us look bad.

Uh, that was correct. They were referring to SCOTUS appointments, and if you remember, Heller was decided with a single vote majority.

The NRA isn't even close to the most potent or even right-leaning gun rights group in the US. JPFO, GOA, SAF, and others have done much more to make changes to the gun laws that favor private gun ownership than the NRA. Charlton Heston supported the Gun Control Act of 1968.

It's playing with numbers. Suicides are what tips that scale. About half the suicides in the US are done with guns, and are often lumped in with the "gun violence" numbers. Japan has a much higher suicide rate than the US, just with means other than guns.

If you compare CDC numbers with the Brady Campaign "kids killed by guns" numbers (a gunrights group did the side by side, I forget who, it;s online somewhere) they include "children" up to age 19 (the age that captures the 1st 3 years of the males aged 16-25 involvement in violent crime in the US), and include people shot by the police, shot by citizens defending themselves, shot by other young criminals, etc. It's a numbers game, about who can lie the most with statistics.

I'm assuming you're referring to guns used inside the US? No, legal availability isn't a factor. The people obtaining them aren't legally allowed to possess or carry them in the first place due to young age, criminal record, lack of license, and so on. They aren't being obtained legally in almost 100% of the circumstances.

Ha. The cartels are recruiting Mexican soldiers who happily drive off their base with all of the guns, training and equipment provided by their military.

The laws only affect the people who obey them. Career criminals don't get jobs as software engineers because they failed a NICS check. A huge number of the crime guns in the US are stolen, but the vast majority of them aren't traced at all. Of the ones that are traced, ATF only reports the data for the ones traced successfully, meaning ones legally brought into the US, with legible numbers, where the manufacturer/FFL files were kept current and available.

Not really. You can get a semi-auto AK in the US for $400-600 retail, with a legal papertrail and attention from ATF if you buy in bulk. You can get full auto whatever you want on the international black market at wholesale cost. More gun for less money, with no one putting your driver's license number on a 4473.

:no: The chart is based on guns seized, submitted to US law enforcement for tracing (meaning someone said "Hey, this gun looks like it came from the US"), and successfully traced by US law enforcement, who only have access to databases of info compiled in the US. This is a very narrow window.

I bet if we went to a busy shopping mall and started writing down VIN numbers of every car we saw, then contacted Ford to trace all of them, they'd only be able to trace some of them...because Ford doesn't keep track of Chevy's VIN's, just Ford's. And naturally, a large percentage of the cars successfully traced in such a manner would come back to Ford, because...Ford had those records. The same circular logic is being applied here.

Also, notice how they only specify that guns "originated" in the US. That could mean manufactured, exported, made for the military, etc. What it's being interpreted as is "guns originally bought in the US at a gun store by a private individual who turned around and gave it to the cartels as part of a scheme." That's just not the case. Most of the legally available guns popular in the US aren't popular with vicious cartel hitmen.

Huh? These numbers are on guns seized in Mexico by notoriously corrupt Mexican law enforcement. Then they ask the US to tell them where guns came from based on records maintained in the US.

The US buys tons of drugs, that's no secret. Obviously American's will pay for coke and weed with dollar bills, not Yen or Euros.

Every other source. The cottage industry of copyright infringing copies of guns made in Asia without serial numbers, guns bought or stolen internationally outside of the channels that care about paperwork and laws, all kinds of other sources. Out of fear that the Germans were bound to invade the UK, large stashes of guns were hidden all over the place with no records kept of their locations for fear of the German's finding them. No one went and rounded them up later. After WW2 ended the US sold off many of the machines they'd used to make all manner of small arms, at auction, not enough questions asked, and they all sold. We're talking about people who don't have to go to a store to buy what they want, they don't have to buy it at all, they can just take it. How many conflicts have been fought around the world in the past 30-40 years?

Exactly. They're also not telling us how the guns were recovered. A stash of AR-15's with sequential serial numbers found in a drug raid is different than pulling a pistol here and there over the past 10 years from every petty criminal and honest citizen looking to defend themselves in a country that's gone to sh**.

Yes. Probably for the same reasons that the US military doesn't send it's cooks to the local grocery store to buy food. It's not cost effective, you get better prices buying in bulk, and more importantly, you get guns that are can't be traced. You think 18 wheelers full of guns just pull up in front of Bubba's gun shop in Arizona, then cruise on down to Mexico after filling out 20,000 background check forms? Or that some cartel employee goes through local classifieds to buy a few dozen dozen mis-matched used guns at a time to slowly trickle across the border?

They have billions of dollars, and people from their own government who control things like import/export unrelated to the US border in their pocket. Why make thousands of little transactions when they can make one massive transaction from a cooperating entity on the other side of the planet? If Walmart can get cheap toasters to the US from China by sending them in bulk, don't you think others can do the exact same thing with weapons?

I don't doubt that you read it, but it's false. Gold is too malleable and soft to make a functioning gun. It would blow up in your face on the 1st shot, assuming you could cycle the action the 1st time. Gold plating is an exotic fun thing for display guns, and can be done anywhere really.

The Zetas don't run around with long scissors and twine. They mutilate the bodies of people that they've shot to death, with guns and training obtained through the Mexican military and it's US advisors. Many of those guns probably come from the US, but likely from large scale exports of arms that civilians already cannot possess legally in the US, the kinds used by soldiers. The reason most of the killings down there don't involve high grade weapons is because most incidents are on a small scale, many are planned murders, not gunfights where both evenly matched sides exchange JHP's.

The US sells old missile technology to other countries. If those exact systems start turning up in Mexican cartel's hands, are we going to start pushing for laws that make it illegal for Best Buy to sell home computers to everyday Americans? That's what this is akin to in gun terms. Sure both are computers, both plug into some power source and churn out code, but they only appear the same to people who don't know the difference. If my analogy sucks it's because I'm not a computer guy and I don't really know the difference there either. :)

Placing more restrictions on channels that aren't used by the people doing most of the violence, based on incomplete data that's not being published, is a piss poor idea.

I'm too wore out from weeks of dealing with some family issues to address the many, many falsehoods in your responses to me. Maybe at a later time I'll go by point to address them but for now let me just say in regards of the guns made of gold they absolutely exist, but are merely status symbols and never intended to function.

Everything okay, Tully?

I hope all is well with your family, come on back when you have the time. :)

Thanks for asking. After a very long illness (pretty much all his life, he contracted polio at age 2 in 1927) my father passed away. I'm currently in the US staying with my mother trying to help her through all this. Again thanks for your thoughts.

My condolences.

and mine, tully

You're just a troll. You're not even trying for a serious discussion.

---------- Post added at 05:28 PM ---------- Previous post was at 05:20 PM ----------

You're just a troll. You're not even trying for a serious discussion.

Duh. Twice.