Astrology and TFP
 

Hmmm. I'm not really sure if this is posted in the right place, but I figured it fits here well enough.

Just wondering how astrology is generally received here on TFP, so what are your thoughts about it?

Well this pretty much sums up my opinion on it.




After watching that zietgeist video I now know that it had allot more influence on that writing of the Bible than I first thought.

Its unfortunate that anything without a solid basis in science is not well received on this board. I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either. Strangely enough I've had a lion avatar for years, because I'm a Leo, and only recently changed to the machine gun doggie.

Even though I'm not a devout believer, I still check my horoscope from time to time.....they are vague, but often seem to fit. :orly:

It would be one thing if it were a matter of trying to explore astrology if the signs matched up to what everyone thought they were. Thats the whole point you are not a Leo (or at least you werent born under the sign of a Leo).


I have an open mind, but did you watch the video?

I didn't watch the video, but I am aware that the signs no longer match up correctly.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zodiac

None the less I am still a Leo and always will be. Its not scientifically accurate, but I want be changing signs due to the precession of equinoxes. :)

Much like most aspects of pseudo science, its fun to think about...and likely has some merit..somewhere.

I am not a firm believer in astrology, but pretty close.
Most Leo's I know are the same, Scorpio's are the same in general, as are Virgo's.Every Leo I ever dated and every Leo friend but one has destroyed the trust I had in them. Every Scorpio had strong take-charge behaviors with higher than average intelligence and every Virgo is optimistic, has definite unwaivering opinions and is creative. I've had my birthsign correctly guessed on numerous ocassions.
When I worked at the middle school, I noticed a little fact: every year's class had its own 'personality'; one was boisterous and prideful, another was full of loners and angry kids, yet another was quiet but friendly. Teachers noticed it too and we wondered if birth years had some sort of astrological influence on general behavior/personality. It wasn't just their group age-they came in the same way they left.

I don't beleive that the position of the sun relative to random patterns of stars in our galactic neighborhood has any relavance to anything, but I have noticed as ngdawg has that people born during certain times of the year seem to have certain personality traits. I tend to be drawn to people who happend to be certain signs, most of the women I've dated (or at least my favorites) have been certain signs.

I regularly read two horoscope columns published in the two alternative weekloes in Seattle. Their horoscopes for myy sign often don't match well, but both authors seem to be wise insightful people and I find it worth my time (a total of about a minute each week), to read their pearls of wisdom as applied to people with my personality traits who happen to be born about the same time of year as me.

I understand that Chinese astrology is based on the year someone is born in rather than the month. You might do sme research on that and see if there's any corrolation between the personality profiles of these classes and what Chinese astrology would predict for them.

Astrology is a very complex form of divination. No, I do not have a degree in astrology, I have, however, been reading charts with a superior degree of accuracy for over 8 years. I have taught classes on the subject and been asked to do psychic fairs because of my accuracy on the subject.

Astrology can not tell you the name of the person you are going to marry, it can not tell you if your marriage will last forever.

What it CAN do is tell you what careers you would be best suited to, what challenges you will have, what personality defects a person may have... what blessings the person will have, what things will cause them much joy.

One of the last charts I have read was for a very closed mouthed friend of mine who was a non-believer. I looked at her chart(a circle with symbols and colorful lines) and told her of her childhood, what it was like for her as a young adult. How one of her husbands beat her and about that little(ok big) hellacious streak she went through when her give-a-damn was beyond busted.

She was awestruck. In all the years I had known her she never told me any of that. I also told her before looking at her chart- do not have someone you do not trust read your chart. You will likely be ashamed at some of the things one will see.

News paper horoscopes are bullshit. You can show me 3 people born on the same day in the same year, each only hours apart from the next. Their horoscopes will be different. Every day, different.

As the minutes pass the circle of a chart turns. When someone is born, it forms a chart. Even twins wont be the same. A new sign on the horison, a trine turns into a sextile- a conjunct becomes a square. Small changes such as that can pull twins in totally opposite directions.

Enough ramblings. You will either believe or you will not. It is not my job to pull you in either direction.

I guess my point is- it is easy to disprove something one knows little or nothing about. It is harder to believe in something that challenges your current beliefs.

Good luck to anyone who hopes to engage me in an argument of right/wrong on this topic. You are entitled to your opinion. I know what the facts are. I have been there and lived that. Each one of us has seen something that no one else could possibly believe. Refer to the first two lines of my signature if you hope to try.

Over a year ago, I and another TFP'er had our charts done by a member of another forum. He hadn't read his(they were posted), but I did and was dumbstruck-it was so spot on, it could have been written by his mother! When he finally read it, he too was very impressed. Mine, on the other hand, hit about 50%. Career was completely off, as were many observations in lines of thought. Not sure why, as I gave my date and time of birth-I think the actual time makes a difference, no?
The most accurate astrology I've ever read was in an ancient Hebrew astrology book.(the book wasn't ancient, the contents were). The book, as I recall, did not refer to Kabala at all, but in reading it(I was a teen), I began to think there's something to this and it affirmed my beliefs of interconnections to our universe.

I can't prove there is not a invisible tea cup that is causing me to type this right now, but that doesn't mean its a valid topic of discussion.

The human brain has evolved to see patterns, and sometimes we see them where there is not merit. There is a difference between being open minded and being naive.

Examples: People see lights 'go dim' when they go by. Answer: Obviously they are 'causing' the light to go dim. (Yes this very topic was on this board).

Example: I keep looking at the clock when its 11:11 Answer: Obviously there is something mystical about 11:11. (This one is amusing to me because AFTER I read about those 11:11 nuts I now notice every time I see its 11:11)

Astrology only makes 'sense' in hindsight. You look at the 'prediction' and then see what happened, and then connect the dots yourself. It has no value as a prediction but because your brain can connect some aspects of it to what happened you assume it must have seen a future.

Astrologers themselves I'd move into two categories, charlatans and larpers.

The charlatans are easy, if I were an astrologer I'd be a charlatan and a damn good one. I'd also throw in my knowledge of astronomy in general to really 'sex up' my 'reports' (I'd call them reports at any rate). Using basic psychology, minimal investigation of the person I'm writing my 'report' for, and then throwing in my own advice for what I thought was good for them, I'd be able to really have fun with it. Only I have enough respect for others to not use people like that.

Larpers are those who believe it, study it, read it like I used to read my D&D manual, know all the rules and sub rules, and whos' rules they like to follow, and then come up with something that follows those rules, only the end result is no more real then my old flaming sword +3. Some seem to try to be 'scientific' others more mystical, but regardless its garbage in garbage out. Of course I can't 'prove' its garbage, but you can never prove something is false scientifically only that its not a strong hypothesis.

So am I suppose to respect and accept everyones unprovable fantasy? Treat it special? We already do that with religion, which I think is the wrong approach, there is nothing sacred in my book, but I'm not going to just smile politely to anyone who thinks they can tell something about you based on where the planets and hydrogen balls are.

I believe that those who tie their lives to, or believe that they are predestined to go a certain path based on what their horroscope says (or from other sources) are making a serious mistake.... If I read what Lady Sage wrote correctly, it is more of an informational thing.....

It is the menu, it ai'nt the meal.... don't eat the menu, cook and eat the meal....

I personally see astrology as a throwback to earlier beliefs and, um, somewhat of a rip-off.

But I don't have much urge to push my view here. People believe different things.

What makes something science is not whether it can be proved right, it's whether it can be proved wrong. If a theory can't be proved wrong then it's not science. I'm talking about any science that has an experimental component. Math, for example, could be called a science without an experimental component. When one comes up with a theorem in mathematics no one goes out to perform an experiment to see if it's correct. Everything is proven true based, ultimately, on a set of axioms.

Thanks Ustwo & albania. We've all heard the scientific rhetoric a million times on this board, we all know all about it. With that being said, maybe we should give the OPer, ngdawg, LadySage and others a little respect, and a chance to post, even though we don't agree with their views. Bringing up the same old tired scientific axiom argument or the completely useless invisible tea cup analogy isnt helpful, tactful or needed in this thread, IMO. If you dont think this is a valid topic, find another topic that you think is.

I didn't say anything about astrology I was commenting on what you wrote. Obviously in my opinion astrology wouldn't fit that definition of science. But, how does the fact that you're tired of hearing something make it inappropriate for the thread, and how does my not believing the same thing as someone else equate to me not showing respect?

I'm sorry I won't use that 'logic' thing anymore, its offensive.'

Edit: You know this requires a bit more explanation.

Lets say you want to believe some unprovable thing, hell lets say you want to have it somehow decide what you want to do in life, thats fine. What you do or believe is your own problem.

Astrology doesn't work like that though. Its not what someone does for themselves, but for others. The more society is polite and accepts this kind of thing as somehow worthy of at least respect, the more will assume there must be 'something' to it.

I'd rather not have someone taking their kid to an astrologer to give them career counseling. I'd also guess the most common questions revolve around love and money and do we really want demonstrably unqualifiedly people giving that sort of advice?

We live at a time when scientists are really discovering the stuff of the universe and what life is made of, and yet more people believe in ghosts and astrology than they did in the 60's. Something is very wrong with that.

At what point do we say enough is enough and its great that you have this 'belief' but I am not going to be polite about it, its false, its silly, and its at best a waste of time and at worst harmful?

You know my guess is some people have gotten good advice from astrologers, but its not based on some long flawed star chart but just normal human interaction. Why should we coat in some mystic fluff and not just state it for what it was?

And finally, astrology isn't something that is done for free by a lot of these people. Its a money making venture. If someone is selling snake oil you want that known, if a drug doesn't do what it says it may make the national news, and astrology does not do what it advertises. That makes it a scam in my book and worthy of public scrutiny at a 'scientific' level.

Yes I'm not being 'nice', but I am being honest, I'm not going to pretend I find anything of value in astrology, nor do I want someone else to think 'hey maybe I should look into that'.

Theres your answer wheelhomies, I thought I'd play devils advocate for you. I didnt read the last post, wasnt worth the effort, but thats how it goes around here, whether its astrology, UFO's, ESP, or anything without a solid basis in science, as I said before.

Dave... Ustwo is absolutely in his rights to state his position (and I am not saying that just because I happen to agree with him). If others wish to carry on a discussion about Astrology and the like, please carry on. If their belief is that strong, it should be able to stand up to the positions and beliefs of others.

At the worst, choose to ignore Ustwo's words and carry on. At best, engage and take him on in his position. That is the nature of discussion. It is the nature of Internet Forums.

Of course he's within his rights, that wasnt the point. Wheelhomies asked how astrology would be received on this board, and I gave her the quick low down on how all such things are received here.

I've said this before too, science cant answer the really interesting questions, some things are simply beyond that. It serves a useful purpose but isnt the end all, for every discussion. Many members would rather avoid discussing anything on the fringe of logic because of the overwhelming need of other members to post a calculated scientific retort to all such inquiries.

I don't know what else to say but, that is their loss. If you believe in something or wish to discuss something, I don't see why anyone else having an opposing opinion (regardless of how passionate) should effect your belief system (unless your belief is just that shaky to begin with).

The point is, people are not always going to understand or believe in the same things you will (that's the universal you). To seek out only those who share your point of view is limitation to personal growth and probably one of the more nasty sides to a conservative mind set (nasty in that most don't see it as conservative... or see that they have such a lazy way of interacting with a difference of opinion).

But perhaps that's just me.

(and yes, I think this should go both ways in a discussion)

Its not the opposing viewpoint thats the problem, its the way that point is verbalized. If you read the thread then you saw ladysage state that she believes in astrology. Along comes Ustwo and says there are 2 kinds of astrologists, charlatans & larpers, basically calling ladysage either of the 2. I personally don't think name calling is appropriate, thats usually the result of a 'holier then thou' attitude, and only encourages unneeded confrontations on an other wise peaceful thread. I will apologize to albania, his post wasn't disrespectful, he just got caught in the middle.

It is important (in my opinion) to understand that while some people feel the pull of eclectic, or "new age" thoughts, others will never try to consider it. In the case of Ustwo, he is adamantly opposed to accepting anything outside his frame of reference in my experience, and though he can be gruff at times has much to share in the opposing spectrum. I doubt he was intentionally trying to be cruel, or disrespectful....it simply the way he communicates in this medium. Just wear the heavy leather coat while reading his replies, very few have a thick enough skin.

Ahh, it has been reduced to name calling has it? Alas, I am not suprised. I expect certain things from certain people. As I have come to know that nothing will be done about it.

I, for one, have N E V E R charged to do a chart reading. Hell, I have never even charged to read tarot. It matters not, I am still any number of interesting names. Yay.

Personally, I believe that people expect too much from astrology. It is a tool. It can be used to guide, it can be used to catch a glimpse of something. It seems to me that it could be compared to people expecting a screwdriver to make coffee. A tool can not do tricks.

Kind of like tarot. The most common misconception being that what the cards say is set in stone. No. You have the ability to change the outcome. The cards tell you what will happen if you continue on your current path and choose not to change. You dont want the tragedy in the cards to befall you? Change the behaviors that would make it so.

You have glass windows? Stop throwing rocks. You will end up breaking one of your own windows. I will laugh. :D

Astrology has fascinated me since I was a preteen. The more I've gotten into it, and the deeper I've gone with it (getting my chart done, etc), the more my fascination grows. The chart I had done was eerily accurate, especially the portions related to my personality. My chart told me things about myself that I never tell anyone about or show to anyone.

And I have been meaning to teach myself to read tarot cards. Do you have any good book suggestions, LS? I'd also like to hear more about your astrology work.

yeah, i noticed the paranoia section is perceivably less popular than almost any other. :)

edit: and ngdawg, i am very sorry to hear about all those leos screwing you. over.

There's no need to apologize for anything. This is the internet, I wouldn't think to take anything personally.

I dont apologize often, but when I do, I'm certainly sure I have done something to apologize for. Although this is the net, a certain amount of respect should go out to each and every member. I should'nt have included you in a post specifically designed for the master of scientific rhetoric & belittling others.

BTW, to answer your question, this has been on on going debate. Much like the threads about whether or not the existence of God can proven or not. IMO, neither side has given credible evidence, and it eventually ends in a stalemate. Many such things are beyond science, for example I know for a fact that my dog has ESP. She starts her little 'someones coming dance' 10-15 minutes before my daughter or friends get here, and theres no possible way she could see, smell, or hear them that soon. So she obviously has something else going on, that science has yet to explain. This has been well documented by other per owners, so I'm not alone in this view. How much more are we, than dogs??????? Thats for another thread................:)

touché, matrix. touché...

I would also like to hear more, and would be more than willing for Lady Sage to do my chart, scary as that may be.....:) I am also fascinated by a member with such keen insights. My mom was the same way, except she never used astrology, or tarot cards, she was just scary period. Call it insight, intuition, clairvoyance, or ESP, but she had it......BTW, Do Not dis my mom, that would be a very big mistake. No shit.

Astrology is generally received the way all things are here. By that I mean that people apply the standards of reason to it which they use for other things. You'll find that the majority - perhaps even the vast majority - of TFPers are rationalists and have no appreciation for astrology. However, there is a vocal minority who will be receptive to ideas regarding the paranormal.

Regarding posts after the OP, I can say this:

This site is expressly interested in the evolution of human thought and interaction.

Some people may think that means gaining an enhanced appreciation for and facility with nonrational thought. Others think it means eliminating the unquantifiable and unverifiable from human expression. When they come together, there is friction - and that's the evidence of the conditions necessary for evolution. I can't think of why either side should get a free pass. Evolution isn't about coexistence - it's about selection.

That isn't meant to endorse one side over the other in an official way (though I have my opinion). It's just to say that this forum is an arena in which these modes of thought can compete. If that wasn't the case, what is evolving would simply be a foregone conclusion.

To be explicitly clear, I don't see anything wrong with ustwo's posts, passive-aggressive complaints about them notwithstanding. His evaluation of the paranormal is what it is, and it comes with a judgment of its practitioners and adherents. The only way to eliminate the latter is to prohibit the former - and that's not evolution.

Yes and yes, I would love to speak with you or anyone else interested in private about it. :) No negativity there.

Dave let me explain what you did that prompted me to post in this thread.

That one word. Normally I'll let people who believe in something like this be, I know I wont' make any inroads with a forum post with that type of person, but, when someone claims that its unfortunate that this board doesn't just accept anything without a solid scientific basis I can't just let that go. Perhaps the one thing that keeps me thinking about tfp now and then even when I'm taking a long break is that there are people here willing to use their heads now and then and bring a bit of rational thought into their lives.

Sometimes tfp gets a bit nutty, but I've been pleasently surprised as well. When someone was going to a quack of a chiropractor doing some 'new-age' eastern medicine BS there were a lot of voices willing to express it as such. In the past I've run into a lot of brick walls when it comes to chiropractors and eastern medicine (you know the guys who are driving species to extinction thinking it will help their erections), so when they combined I figured it would be the prefect shit storm of irrational new age thought. Instead TFP came threw.

Its not unfortunate that so many TFPers require at least some verifiable proof before they believe something, but extremely refreshing.

Who are you to judge whats rational or not??? I said what I did because I've seen way to many threads go down in flames, because of an outpouring of someones elses ideals, quickly followed by the piling on effect. Then that threads dead jed.....:)

I dont agree with Charlatan either...

I think its human nature to seek out those with a similar viewpoint, your friends aren't usually completely dissimilar, they often share at least some of your beliefs. I dont see how that limits your personal growth at all. Is growth based on a difference of opinion with others??? Accepting others even though they are different & and adding a modicum of respect may be a form of growth.

dave:

if you want acceptance and dialogue about something that a segment of the population finds outmoded on scientific grounds--and there's nothing you can do about that--but you want to talk about it anyway because you find it interesting, then it seems to me the way to go about having that conversation is to shift the grounds. there's no particular reason why ustwo's positions regarding astrology and more contemporary cosmology should end the discussion--his posts simply exclude a particular direction.


like others i doubt there is a single tfp consensus on astrology.
but it is not obvious that you have to accept the cosmology built into the astrological game to find that game interesting.

cosmology at this point is a scientific enterprise, dominated in large part by astronomer/physicists and so the discourse is that of science.
so if one were required to accept the assumptions in order to find astrology interesting (or to find it uninteresting as the case may be) and the terms across which those assumptions have to be debated are scientific, then what ustwo is saying would effectively end the conversation.

but there is an obvious split between one's immediate experience and the way in which that experience is framed by metagames like cosmology--so for example we might know at many levels that constellations are only coherent objects from a particular viewpoint, but we still refer to constellations. and i can imagine (as i am sure you can) a range of situations in which you can find yourself running through different relations to the notion of constellation--think pointing out patterns in the stars for a child as over against laying on a hill having a stoned "what's it all about, man?" conversation with an astrophysicist....

you can see astrology as a kind of predictive system that may be based on assumptions no longer in force from particular viewpoints, but which nonetheless corresponds to naive perception (this term only to distinguish it from institutionally circumscribed perception)....and it's not as though the fact that the science that once subtended or was of a piece with astrology has shifted means that astrology therefore does nothing except demonstrate to dysfunctionality of all views of the world that are not ours.

by which i mean a pretty obvious thing: we are here, now, in part because previous generations muddled through and reproduced using systems to understand and make predictions about their world. at the very least atrology is an element of that history. if it works in certain ways to predict dispositions in someone born in a certain place at a certain time, then fine. and if casting charts is something that folk like doing, then fine.

so shift the grounds of the discussion and keep having it.
there's no reason for you to argue that dialogue and respect and its attending virtues require that folk accept as scientific in 2007 the assumptions around which astrology is built.
it aint gonna happen.
but this is not the only conversation possible.
so make a different one.

Trying to reconcile the rift between science and the paranormal isnt easy, it think that science hasn't required the correct means of understanding all dimensions. If string theory is correct, there may be 10,11, or 26 dimensions, yet we can only detect 4, height, width, depth, and time. Thats a narrow view if this is even close to true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/String_theory

I find it inherently ridiculous that the date of my birth would be a determinant of any aspect of the course of my life. I find astrology's successes to be a combination of happenstance, client disposition, and cold reading. The very fact that I'm supposed to have an open mind in order for it to work well is a strong indicator; an indicator that the method cannot succeed unless the client is already susceptible to suggestion. To me, it is a system of wishful thinking that employs non-verbal communication and educated guesswork. I believe the potential of the human mind is too beautiful to let itself be limited by formalized superstition.

I remember a chart I did once for a man... he swore everything I said had never happened- or he wasnt like that at all and never had been. Later, the person he was with came back and told me I was spot on. One has to be open-minded in what they are and have been. One can deny all one likes that one is, say, stubborn as a mule. Doesnt change the fact that they are or they are not. Despite the fact that the person just proved it. :D

To answer the OP, the only thing sthat the collective "we" of TFP have in common are (as I see it):

1) we all possess at least rudimentary computer skills
2) we all speak English reasonably well
3) we all know how to join this website

Beyond that, there aren't any other commonalities I can think of. To be honest, that's what's great about this place. There are folks here that I vehemently disagree with on lots of issues, but they leaven the bread. Honestly, that's why I'm still here after 4+ years, not because I found a bunch of like-minded folks.

As for astrology, I don't really believe in it. I'm with you, Johnny Rotten. I don't see how my time and place of birth by themselves are going to influence my life. Now my father, who is the epitome of rational and logical (so much so that my high school friends called him "Spock"), is very much into astrology. One of his first gifts to Max as a complex astrology chart of the type I expect that Lady Sage can create. It should be interesting, if nothing else, although I don't expect that it will prove or disprove anything.

We are human, we breathe oxygen, we are carbon based...

Sorry, gotta be a smartass.

Bad llama!

Thanks for the compliment, Lady Sage! I always thought you considered me sub-human!

/smartass threadjacks

For what its worth, I consider you sub-human....:wave:

Right. Why rebut the points of my argument when you can just pat the poor unbeliever on the head and lament his lack of vision. Look, with the right anecdote, I could shoot down any argument in this thread -- even my own. Instead, I rely on logical deduction and empirical evidence. I believe that astrology, however, relies on subjective interpretation.

You claim that astrology is real, and you challenged anyone to debate you on this topic. In case there's any doubt that you made this claim, let me refresh:

(Emphasis mine)

But when I told you that it's a stretch of claim and explained why, you implied that I'm just not spiritual enough? Come on now.

I believe aliens are here. I find ESP, clairvoyance, ghosts and remote viewing to be plausible, if only explained through an aspect of the natural world that we do not yet understand. Natal horoscopic astrology, however, cannot be explained through scientific means. It is a system of prediction based on the day I was born. This is, functionally, no more indicative than the lines on my hand or the distribution of tarot cards on a table. At best, I believe it is only a catalyst of vaguely understood mental behavior.

I'd be more open to the idea that a person was psychic and thought there was meaning in the astrological signs they use as tools to tell a person about their past, present, and future.

I'm not some hick in the sticks. Nor am I an uptight, button-down WASP. I live in San Francisco, and I had two gay roommates. I smoke pot as a matter of course, philosphize endlessly on the meaning of the life, and struggle every day with the possibility of the existence of a god, goddess, or sacred tree stump hidden away in the Himalayas that whispers the secrets of the Earth to those who have the ears to listen. I make mistakes, I have regrets, but I think long and hard about controversial topics before I wade into a discussion. And everything I know about life and everything I've read about other peoples' lives leads away from formalized superstition.

Masculine, feminine, air, fire, water, earth, cardinal, fixed, mutable, angular, succedent, Grand Trine, Grand Cross, hemispheres, Jones patterns -- there is enough in an individual dice roll to address everyone who's lived who's ever lived and ever will live. And in the event that it does not, the person either did not live long enough to fulfill their pre-ordained potential or were cut down in their prime before the stars could line the path of their life.

Because I do not buy all this does not make me stubborn. Because I do not ascribe to a particular mystical analysis does not make me philistine. Everyone has a spectrum of beliefs -- and a point at which they draw the line. To go beyond an individual's personal line, point back, and say to them, "You go no further because you are just not strong enough to believe" is wholly arbitrary and entirely unsupportable.

In fact, astrology is a leap of faith. In order to accept it as real, you have to accept that it contains forces that are not understood nor perhaps even explainable. It is insubstantially different from accepting Jesus as my Lord and personal savior. If you disagree, perhaps you are not familiar with the astrological roots of Christianity.

I choose not to make that leap of faith. Does that make me difficult or close-minded?

I wouldn't have brought any of this up if you didn't claim that rejecting a leap of faith (positioned as a fact, no less) was an act of philistine stubbornness. If you find my position disrespectful, perhaps you should take a closer look at your own.

Actually I was the one that brought up disrespect, which wasn't aimed at you, but a particular member who wasn't able to verbalize his opinion without resorting to name calling. Your opinion seems concise, and comprehensible without being obnoxious. Its often not what you say, but how you say it.

Wait, weren't YOU the one who called ME "sub-human"?

nevermind....

I was only joking, thats why I included the :wave:

Dave, at the risk of making this even less funny than it actually is,

DUH!

If you knew I was joking, then you could have placed a smiley face on your post, so I'd know that you knew I was only joking. Otherwise I wouldn't know that you knew, I might think you were serious, I might have a nervous breakdown and foam at the mouth, like a stark raving mad lunatic. Wait......that already happened....:wave: (smiley included)

...it sounds like someone's ruling planet is Mars....:hmm:

lol...the mars thing actually kind of fits. point proven?


anyway, ustwo, get a chart done. have lady sage do yours for free.

Because of things like this...


I'd also recommend this one


Heheh this one is the best of them all


The good part starts just before the middle.

I think that astrology has some interesting historical and cultural value. I see a lot of beauty in the texts and visual components. I cannot say I really believe much in it, though I must say that I have never really taken it seriously.

Everything considered, I place astrology in the same category as other such noble attempts at understanding the universe and ourselves, including alchemy, the Four Temperaments, and the Atkins diet.

(Dave wonders if there really is intelligent life on Earth. Doubts it.......)

lady sage, if you haven't already abandoned this thread, would you mind taking a guess at my sign? and just so there's no confusion i'm not asking for any purpose other than curiosity. just wondering what kind of impression i give.

The difference between Astrology and the Atkins diet is the Atkins diet works and is backed up by physiology (aka science).

How healthy it is, is up to debate, but the results are reproducible.

(and yes I know you were making a joke :thumbsup: )

Oh, good. I was half-expecting to get someone all riled up, and an Atkins debate would ensue. I suppose it isn't too late for that.

Yeah, I know it works (so does liposuction), but I'd sooner submit myself to an Ayurvedic diet than the Atkins diet. I think the Ayurveda system includes everything except astrology, so it still stands a chance with me.

What this says to me is that astrology and tarot make vague predictions that a person can either allow to come true, or can refuse to allow to become the truth. It's easy to make a guess based on a cold reading and allow that to consciously or subconsciously influence what you read as their past and future.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and the logical burden of proof is on those who make fantastical claims. Scientific proof is not an absolute, it is simply the confidence in the extreme likelihood that a solution to a problem is the one that can be reproduced consistently under identical conditions.

I encourage people to have those who practice astrology do a reading for them. If Lady Sage is willing to do readings for members, especially new members with which she has had no personal contact and does not know from the board (reducing the chance that what she knows about them will influence her,) and those members make an honest comparison of the reading to reality, we can make a small effort to judge it, albeit with a small sample of the general public that is not particularly representative of that public.

One of the criticisms of astrology is that it's predictions/readings are sufficiently vague that they could apply to everyone, regardless of sign. If this is the case, the method you describe above might not adequately test astrology.

IMO it has the same kind of broadness as a fortune cookie reading.

It also has plenty of elements of "cold reading"

Watch that last Youtube link I posted and tell me if you feel the same way.

I'll summarize for you though. Basically four or five people (I forget) in 3 different countries (so 15 total, or 12 or whatever) were given the exact same 'reading' only they didn't know they all got the same reading. Originally they were told to give birth date, a hand drawing, and something personal and put in an envelope. They then said how accurate the reading was. Most said 80+% one said 99% and the one male that seemed to be heterosexual said 40%. At any rate they were all shocked (except for the one male) when they read everyone else's readings and found they were identical, and it woke them all up to what the reality is. The first youtube video is of he same phenomena.

One of those personal 'touches' was something about wanting to write a novel but them not taking the time to do so because they didn't feel they could. I found this to be amusing because I started doing something like that a few years ago, figured out writing was really 'work' and never followed up. My guess is among people over a certain education level, the desire to write is pretty common.

Now in the videos these were skeptics out to prove how easy people are fooled by astrologers and the like, but even an honest but vague 'reading' would produce a number of hits. We are all human, we all have the same issues to some extent, and even if something isn't spot on, its not hard to wiggle it until you can see how it fits in hindsight.

I'd be far more impressed if you took 20 astrologers and could find some sort of consensus in method or results. Then I'd elevate it to something like phrenology. Still not valid but at least reproducible.

That's pretty much what I'm expecting; that's why I want to see comparisons between the reading and reality, so we can see that it all applies to most of us if we want or expect it to. I've researched it and my mind is made up on astrology; it would take mountains of evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise. What I hope to accomplish is to let others see for themselves what readings are like, analyze personal readings and those done for others, and come to their own conclusion about whether it is legitimate or not.

And you really think LadySage will go for this??? :) Damned if I'm not actually Laughing Out Loud now....http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p...y-faces-38.gif
You guys are too funny......

Charts are not that vague. We aren't talking about the astrology predictions you read in the newspaper. We're talking about calculations based on something that varies from person to person--their precise birth date and birthplace. Those calculations are then interpreted into a reading, and if the astrologer is a competent one, the accuracy increases.

This reminds me...I ought to send Lady Sage a pm about getting my chart done. I've lost the copy of the one I had. Trust me--the accuracies were spooky, especially in describing my personality. I have some very conflicting elements to my personality that few people catch, and surprise even those who know me well, yet a chart was able to pick up on it right away--and the chart I had done was via the Internet, by someone I didn't know from Adam, based only on my birthdate, time, and place.

they aren't vague because they are words about very specific things. it is as I stated, "it is the subject who provides the meaning."

So you can find meaning in anything put to you and how much meaning that may or may not be. Thus the target moves from left to right, forward to backward. Only you are the one who can say whether or not it is accurate or not. At that point one dismisses it as being a bad reader and one goes to find another one.

so again, validity would have to be posited via an external verification, meaning someone besides the subject. which seems impossible to me....

I don't see why someone claiming absolute proof of the extraordinary should refuse a chance to present evidence in their favor ... unless there is no proof and the claim is invalid.

I knew you'd say that.....:thumbsup:

From what I recall there is a million dollar prize out for anyone who can prove any paranormal abilities, and I would think Astrology would qualify.

Oddly no one has claimed that prize.

I posted on the "skeptics forum" briefly, didn't stay, I hated it. No matter what the topic, there was always a band of naysayers out to spoil the fun. They don't even believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa, sad really. :sad:

You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just inexplicable & cant be categorized, labeled, or dissected.

Let me do the internet thing for you and fix that...

You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just false & are based on lies, superstition and people being easily fooled.

Radical Honesty FTW ;)

At least to me, there is very little reason to express personal experience, or belief in most of the things people term as paranormal, spritual, or new age. It would seem to me a no lose situation to just remain quiet and continue to explore the benefits of using these things without trying to explain it to people who will never accept the good they might do, whether mental or physical.
Seriously, think about it. What do you have to gain by exposing yourself to the massive negativity projected by detractors of these things you use to become a better person?

That reminded me of this:

i dont understand why this thread is still stuck where it is.

it is pretty clear that there is a range of approaches to astrology, and that the weakest of them is that which would require that you accept its premises as still factual (the geocentric universe)--the debate with ustwo here has remained stuck within the assumption that this is the only way to think about astrology---and insofar as that is how the conversation has gone, i dont understand why folk are arguing with him as he is right--the problem is that this is not the only grounds on which one can approach it. historically, astrolgy is quite interesting. and it is not the case that a few thousand years of human interaction with astrology as one of a range of divination practices suddenly disappeared with kepler, copernicus and galileo...or is it the case that a thousand years of human activity suddenly became entirely stupid because there was a sequence of paradigm shifts in cosmology.

dave's main argument in response seems to be that there are things tht scientific descriptions cannot explain--well obviously--there is a shit-ton of things that scientific descriptions cannot explain, just as there is an enormous range of human experience that canot be jammed into sentence form without basically altering its logic. temporal experience, for example. simultaneous phenomena for another.

but the conclusion--that therefore astrology actually might have a scientific basis--doesnt follow. the arguments run more in the direction of generating conceptual problems for how scientific descriptions (and descriptions mor generally) operate, what they do (as over against what they say)--and so are of an entirely different order. you cant just say "scientific knowledge is limited because its descriptive powers are circumscribed" an then say "so astrology could be a science" as if b follows from a.

on the other hand
you can find alchemy interesting without necessarily accepting the assumptions that shaped--you can find it interesting as an exploration of the problems of categorization, of a logic that follows from the category of "noun"--if 1, 34, 108 are all names or nouns, then there is a way in which they are rendered equivalent as names or nouns--so logically it can follow that therefore one should be able to shift 34 into 108 without adding elements but rather by locating and sliding along this metaphysical space generated by the term "equivalent"....its metaphysics, sure, but that doesnt mean its not of some interest.

similar arguments could be made about magick.
i have done alot of work with magicians in generating sound environments--i think ritual is a device for focussing attention and that focus can generate very interesting outcomes--i dont have to share the assumptions that the magicians bring to bear on their own practice to find that practice interesting or generative. one of the main reasons why this sort of work has been important to me is the sense that i have and that the magicians have that we are working in parallel, even though i do not in the main find the devices they use to shape their attention to be aesthetically compelling, and they do not necessarily find the totally abstract way in which i see things to be so either. but in the doing, other things can unfold, so it hardly matters.

And you wonder why the space aliens won't make contact. :lol:

They wont make contact because you wont stop sending them all those pm's...:)

True dat. I did throw in the string theory argument, which is theoretical & still unprovable, as a prime example of how strange the universe may actually be. Our understanding hasnt evolved sufficiently to properly explain our own planet, let alone the complexities of a multidimensional/multi universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensions

So what exactly lies beyond the fourth dimension??? Perhaps there are invisble links that tie the universe together at the subatomic level, and since we're all a part of this universe its conceivable that we're linked to it too. Is is possible to key into all this??? I have no freakin idea....

The difference is that while string theory does fit mathematical models it can't be tested and therefore is just a theory to be investigated, its not accepted as true.

Astrology has been tested and comes up lacking each time.

The only people saying Astrology is beyond testing tend to be astrologers. If you would like some experimental examples I'll be happy to provide them.

i would like to see them.

I'm tired of beating this dead horse, could we start a sub-topic about Vaginal, Clitoral, and Multiple Orgasms???

Someone remind me how I ended up arguing for astrology when my first post in this thread said....

Some people will back it up. Some people won't. A lot of people will wander by, look at the thread and not post anything.

And DaveMatrix will somehow end up arguing for what he was neutral on at the start.

Does that answer your question?

Oh I think her question was answered long ago in this thread.

Mmmm now I get to be paranoid as I've had two posts in this thread disappear, one was a few days ago I thought was maybe and now one today.

First one wasn't worth reposting at the time, it was to dave, but the second was to wheelhomies request so I'll have to dig that up again.

Karma is a bitch huh??? I've also noticed that Lady Sage hasn't been around for awhile, just now saw a comment about her in another thread. I'm not up on all the TFP gossip & I'm surely out of the Loop, but does anyone know why she's gone??? Pan too it seems........

She has irreconcilable differences with certain members and does not wish to coexist with those members.

If by karma you mean 'high privacy browser settings' and bitch you mean 'short lived cookies', you would be correct.

pls don't forget about those experiments.

Yea, this thread really is dead jed, not only that but we seem to have lost a wonderfully talented member because of it. Thanks must go out to those 'certain members' for their ability to post with tact, respect, & consideration for another members position.

Please don't give me the 'thick skin' speech, we've all heard it a thousand times before.

You're really making a ton of assumptions with this post.

I wouldn't put those out there if I wasn't dead certain I knew what I was talking about.

Now we've seen a gross misinterpretation of the idea of karma in an open thread about astrology categorized as paranoia.

It is entirely possible the thread is dead.


The only hope of salvaging anything is to read roachboy's last post and go for another approach.

I'd actually be interested in reading some of the studies ustwo mentioned.

*EDIT*

I found this blog post which recaps and summarizes one of the major studies done on astrology. The study was originally published in Nature. There's also a list of other studies done. I haven't yet found the original text of these articles, but I'm still digging.

hehe...i really didn't mean to "categorize" astrology as paranoia. this section is just not as active as most of the others, so i thought i'd add a little something to it.

i would like to discuss it more and from a different angle, but i want to see ustwo's experiments beforehand. i'm curious to see what specifically they addressed in astrology.

and i am truly sorry if the posts in this topic caused lady sage to leave.

I found this great site that does a birthchart for free:

http://www.0800-horoscope.com/birthchart.php

It's fun, I run birthdays through there for most of the people I know. So for, most people agree that it's accurate. Give it a try, and let us know how you like it.

Werewolves, zombies, vamp... !

Whoa, what the fuck happened in THIS thread?

Dude, shut up. There's a thread in progress :p

Don't make me sic my Taurus on your Pisces!

I was simply going by this....

Since LadySage left when this thread was evolving, I did assume they were related. I may be wrong, but then again......

Yes Baraka, I know what the 'correct' interpretation of Karma is, but it is also used as a reference to 'what goes around comes around'. While that may not be the correct Buddhist interpretation, the meaning isn't lost on anyone.

Fair enough, Dave. But what about my advice for rescuing the thread?

Hey, take it and run with it. Its just one thread in an ocean of threads, they go where they will.......:wave:

It had nothing to do with this thread, but it's a private matter and I'm not going any further into it.

That was one of the studies I was talking about but I admit I haven't put any effort to repost after my little cookies problem ate my last one.

I am amazed at how a place that works for and claims to be "the evolution of humanity, sexuality and philosophy", can put this topic in Paranoia or have so many trying to debunk it and call those who practice it names.

I find it sad really to find so many small minded, individuals that are wanting to preach their views as being "well documented, well researched and they are far more knowledgeable than anyone else" in a forum that is supposed to be open minded, fun, educational and accepting of people's beliefs.

I can understand if this were politics where tempers run high (mature of the beast) or sports, where pride and devotion are the mainstays, but this isn't even "spirituality" this is a belief in an art form that people have practiced for 1000's of years. I also see that the "debunkers" "don't have the time to back up their "proof". That they believe in one thing and since in their small minds that is the "only truth" then someone else's truth must be wrong.

As Shakespeare (arguably) wrote: "there are more things in heaven and hell than are dreamt of in your philosophy."

Readings are what you make them, they can be very accurate or they can be drivel. In the end it is up to whomever has the reading to decide and get from it what they choose to.

I'll say it again: evolution works through selection, not inclusion. We can discuss anything here, but that doesn't mean that we can't have honest conversations about the quality of the ideas. That was the beauty of the 9/11 thread.

In other words, you aren't helping your ideas get selected if the best defense you can mount is complaining about the other side and a few anecdotes. Surely astrology's supporters have produced more convincing arguments and evidence than have been presented in this thread?

And Pan, you know as well as I do that "the forum" didn't put this thread in Paranoia. The OP did.