Astrology and TFP - Page 2 - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

The_Jazz · 09-21-2007, 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

We are human, we breathe oxygen, we are carbon based...

Sorry, gotta be a smartass.

Bad llama!

Thanks for the compliment, Lady Sage! I always thought you considered me sub-human!

/smartass threadjacks

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Thanks for the compliment, Lady Sage! I always thought you considered me sub-human!

/smartass threadjacks

For what its worth, I consider you sub-human....

Johnny Rotten · 09-21-2007, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

I remember a chart I did once for a man... he swore everything I said had never happened- or he wasnt like that at all and never had been. Later, the person he was with came back and told me I was spot on. One has to be open-minded in what they are and have been. One can deny all one likes that one is, say, stubborn as a mule. Doesnt change the fact that they are or they are not. Despite the fact that the person just proved it.

Right. Why rebut the points of my argument when you can just pat the poor unbeliever on the head and lament his lack of vision. Look, with the right anecdote, I could shoot down any argument in this thread -- even my own. Instead, I rely on logical deduction and empirical evidence. I believe that astrology, however, relies on subjective interpretation.

You claim that astrology is real, and you challenged anyone to debate you on this topic. In case there's any doubt that you made this claim, let me refresh:

Quote:

Good luck to anyone who hopes to engage me in an argument of right/wrong on this topic. You are entitled to your opinion. I know what the facts are.

(Emphasis mine)

But when I told you that it's a stretch of claim and explained why, you implied that I'm just not spiritual enough? Come on now.

I believe aliens are here. I find ESP, clairvoyance, ghosts and remote viewing to be plausible, if only explained through an aspect of the natural world that we do not yet understand. Natal horoscopic astrology, however, cannot be explained through scientific means. It is a system of prediction based on the day I was born. This is, functionally, no more indicative than the lines on my hand or the distribution of tarot cards on a table. At best, I believe it is only a catalyst of vaguely understood mental behavior.

I'd be more open to the idea that a person was psychic and thought there was meaning in the astrological signs they use as tools to tell a person about their past, present, and future.

I'm not some hick in the sticks. Nor am I an uptight, button-down WASP. I live in San Francisco, and I had two gay roommates. I smoke pot as a matter of course, philosphize endlessly on the meaning of the life, and struggle every day with the possibility of the existence of a god, goddess, or sacred tree stump hidden away in the Himalayas that whispers the secrets of the Earth to those who have the ears to listen. I make mistakes, I have regrets, but I think long and hard about controversial topics before I wade into a discussion. And everything I know about life and everything I've read about other peoples' lives leads away from formalized superstition.

Masculine, feminine, air, fire, water, earth, cardinal, fixed, mutable, angular, succedent, Grand Trine, Grand Cross, hemispheres, Jones patterns -- there is enough in an individual dice roll to address everyone who's lived who's ever lived and ever will live. And in the event that it does not, the person either did not live long enough to fulfill their pre-ordained potential or were cut down in their prime before the stars could line the path of their life.

Because I do not buy all this does not make me stubborn. Because I do not ascribe to a particular mystical analysis does not make me philistine. Everyone has a spectrum of beliefs -- and a point at which they draw the line. To go beyond an individual's personal line, point back, and say to them, "You go no further because you are just not strong enough to believe" is wholly arbitrary and entirely unsupportable.

In fact, astrology is a leap of faith. In order to accept it as real, you have to accept that it contains forces that are not understood nor perhaps even explainable. It is insubstantially different from accepting Jesus as my Lord and personal savior. If you disagree, perhaps you are not familiar with the astrological roots of Christianity.

I choose not to make that leap of faith. Does that make me difficult or close-minded?

I wouldn't have brought any of this up if you didn't claim that rejecting a leap of faith (positioned as a fact, no less) was an act of philistine stubbornness. If you find my position disrespectful, perhaps you should take a closer look at your own.

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 11:29 AM

Actually I was the one that brought up disrespect, which wasn't aimed at you, but a particular member who wasn't able to verbalize his opinion without resorting to name calling. Your opinion seems concise, and comprehensible without being obnoxious. Its often not what you say, but how you say it.

The_Jazz · 09-21-2007, 04:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

Actually I was the one that brought up disrespect, which wasn't aimed at you, but a particular member who wasn't able to verbalize his opinion without resorting to name calling. Your opinion seems concise, and comprehensible without being obnoxious. Its often not what you say, but how you say it.

Wait, weren't YOU the one who called ME "sub-human"?

nevermind....

DaveOrion · 09-21-2007, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Wait, weren't YOU the one who called ME "sub-human"?

nevermind....

I was only joking, thats why I included the

The_Jazz · 09-22-2007, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I was only joking, thats why I included the

Dave, at the risk of making this even less funny than it actually is,

DUH!

DaveOrion · 09-22-2007, 09:55 AM

If you knew I was joking, then you could have placed a smiley face on your post, so I'd know that you knew I was only joking. Otherwise I wouldn't know that you knew, I might think you were serious, I might have a nervous breakdown and foam at the mouth, like a stark raving mad lunatic. Wait......that already happened....

(smiley included)

Baraka_Guru · 09-22-2007, 10:49 AM

...it sounds like someone's ruling planet is Mars....

wheelhomies · 09-22-2007, 08:28 PM

lol...the mars thing actually kind of fits. point proven?

anyway, ustwo, get a chart done. have lady sage do yours for free.

Ustwo · 09-22-2007, 10:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelhomies

lol...the mars thing actually kind of fits. point proven?

anyway, ustwo, get a chart done. have lady sage do yours for free.

Because of things like this...

YouTube - James Randi on Astrology

I'd also recommend this one

YouTube - Carl Sagan on Astrology

Heheh this one is the best of them all

YouTube - Derren Brown Astrology

The good part starts just before the middle.

Baraka_Guru · 09-22-2007, 11:07 PM

I think that astrology has some interesting historical and cultural value. I see a lot of beauty in the texts and visual components. I cannot say I really believe much in it, though I must say that I have never really taken it seriously.

Everything considered, I place astrology in the same category as other such noble attempts at understanding the universe and ourselves, including alchemy, the Four Temperaments, and the Atkins diet.

DaveOrion · 09-23-2007, 05:19 AM

(Dave wonders if there really is intelligent life on Earth. Doubts it.......)

wheelhomies · 09-23-2007, 02:48 PM

lady sage, if you haven't already abandoned this thread, would you mind taking a guess at my sign? and just so there's no confusion i'm not asking for any purpose other than curiosity. just wondering what kind of impression i give.

Ustwo · 09-24-2007, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baraka_Guru

... and the Atkins diet.

The difference between Astrology and the Atkins diet is the Atkins diet works and is backed up by physiology (aka science).

How healthy it is, is up to debate, but the results are reproducible.

(and yes I know you were making a joke

)

Baraka_Guru · 09-24-2007, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

(and yes I know you were making a joke

)

Oh, good. I was half-expecting to get someone all riled up, and an Atkins debate would ensue. I suppose it isn't too late for that.

Yeah, I know it works (so does liposuction), but I'd sooner submit myself to an Ayurvedic diet than the Atkins diet. I think the Ayurveda system includes everything except astrology, so it still stands a chance with me.

MSD · 09-24-2007, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lady Sage

Personally, I believe that people expect too much from astrology. It is a tool. It can be used to guide, it can be used to catch a glimpse of something. It seems to me that it could be compared to people expecting a screwdriver to make coffee. A tool can not do tricks.

Kind of like tarot. The most common misconception being that what the cards say is set in stone. No. You have the ability to change the outcome. The cards tell you what will happen if you continue on your current path and choose not to change. You dont want the tragedy in the cards to befall you? Change the behaviors that would make it so.

What this says to me is that astrology and tarot make vague predictions that a person can either allow to come true, or can refuse to allow to become the truth. It's easy to make a guess based on a cold reading and allow that to consciously or subconsciously influence what you read as their past and future.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Its not unfortunate that so many TFPers require at least some verifiable proof before they believe something, but extremely refreshing.

It is impossible to prove a negative, and the logical burden of proof is on those who make fantastical claims. Scientific proof is not an absolute, it is simply the confidence in the extreme likelihood that a solution to a problem is the one that can be reproduced consistently under identical conditions.

I encourage people to have those who practice astrology do a reading for them. If Lady Sage is willing to do readings for members, especially new members with which she has had no personal contact and does not know from the board (reducing the chance that what she knows about them will influence her,) and those members make an honest comparison of the reading to reality, we can make a small effort to judge it, albeit with a small sample of the general public that is not particularly representative of that public.

sapiens · 09-25-2007, 06:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

I encourage people to have those who practice astrology do a reading for them. If Lady Sage is willing to do readings for members, especially new members with which she has had no personal contact and does not know from the board (reducing the chance that what she knows about them will influence her,) and those members make an honest comparison of the reading to reality, we can make a small effort to judge it, albeit with a small sample of the general public that is not particularly representative of that public.

One of the criticisms of astrology is that it's predictions/readings are sufficiently vague that they could apply to everyone, regardless of sign. If this is the case, the method you describe above might not adequately test astrology.

Cynthetiq · 09-25-2007, 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

One of the criticisms of astrology is that it's predictions/readings are sufficiently vague that they could apply to everyone, regardless of sign. If this is the case, the method you describe above might not adequately test astrology.

IMO it has the same kind of broadness as a fortune cookie reading.

It also has plenty of elements of "cold reading"

Quote:

One of the most crucial elements of a convincing cold reading is a credulous subject eager to make connections or reinterpret vague statements in any way that will help the reader appear to have made specific predictions or intuitions. While the reader will do most of the talking, it is the subject who provides the meaning.

Ustwo · 09-25-2007, 06:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

I encourage people to have those who practice astrology do a reading for them. If Lady Sage is willing to do readings for members, especially new members with which she has had no personal contact and does not know from the board (reducing the chance that what she knows about them will influence her,) and those members make an honest comparison of the reading to reality, we can make a small effort to judge it, albeit with a small sample of the general public that is not particularly representative of that public.

Watch that last Youtube link I posted and tell me if you feel the same way.

I'll summarize for you though. Basically four or five people (I forget) in 3 different countries (so 15 total, or 12 or whatever) were given the exact same 'reading' only they didn't know they all got the same reading. Originally they were told to give birth date, a hand drawing, and something personal and put in an envelope. They then said how accurate the reading was. Most said 80+% one said 99% and the one male that seemed to be heterosexual said 40%. At any rate they were all shocked (except for the one male) when they read everyone else's readings and found they were identical, and it woke them all up to what the reality is. The first youtube video is of he same phenomena.

One of those personal 'touches' was something about wanting to write a novel but them not taking the time to do so because they didn't feel they could. I found this to be amusing because I started doing something like that a few years ago, figured out writing was really 'work' and never followed up. My guess is among people over a certain education level, the desire to write is pretty common.

Now in the videos these were skeptics out to prove how easy people are fooled by astrologers and the like, but even an honest but vague 'reading' would produce a number of hits. We are all human, we all have the same issues to some extent, and even if something isn't spot on, its not hard to wiggle it until you can see how it fits in hindsight.

I'd be far more impressed if you took 20 astrologers and could find some sort of consensus in method or results. Then I'd elevate it to something like phrenology. Still not valid but at least reproducible.

MSD · 09-25-2007, 07:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Watch that last Youtube link I posted and tell me if you feel the same way.

I'll summarize for you though. Basically four or five people (I forget) in 3 different countries (so 15 total, or 12 or whatever) were given the exact same 'reading' only they didn't know they all got the same reading. Originally they were told to give birth date, a hand drawing, and something personal and put in an envelope. They then said how accurate the reading was. Most said 80+% one said 99% and the one male that seemed to be heterosexual said 40%. At any rate they were all shocked (except for the one male) when they read everyone else's readings and found they were identical, and it woke them all up to what the reality is. The first youtube video is of he same phenomena.

That's pretty much what I'm expecting; that's why I want to see comparisons between the reading and reality, so we can see that it all applies to most of us if we want or expect it to. I've researched it and my mind is made up on astrology; it would take mountains of evidence to the contrary to convince me otherwise. What I hope to accomplish is to let others see for themselves what readings are like, analyze personal readings and those done for others, and come to their own conclusion about whether it is legitimate or not.

DaveOrion · 09-25-2007, 07:56 AM

And you really think LadySage will go for this???

Damned if I'm not actually Laughing Out Loud now....

You guys are too funny......

snowy · 09-25-2007, 09:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sapiens

One of the criticisms of astrology is that it's predictions/readings are sufficiently vague that they could apply to everyone, regardless of sign. If this is the case, the method you describe above might not adequately test astrology.

Charts are not that vague. We aren't talking about the astrology predictions you read in the newspaper. We're talking about calculations based on something that varies from person to person--their precise birth date and birthplace. Those calculations are then interpreted into a reading, and if the astrologer is a competent one, the accuracy increases.

This reminds me...I ought to send Lady Sage a pm about getting my chart done. I've lost the copy of the one I had. Trust me--the accuracies were spooky, especially in describing my personality. I have some very conflicting elements to my personality that few people catch, and surprise even those who know me well, yet a chart was able to pick up on it right away--and the chart I had done was via the Internet, by someone I didn't know from Adam, based only on my birthdate, time, and place.

Cynthetiq · 09-25-2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by onesnowyowl

Charts are not that vague. We aren't talking about the astrology predictions you read in the newspaper. We're talking about calculations based on something that varies from person to person--their precise birth date and birthplace. Those calculations are then interpreted into a reading, and if the astrologer is a competent one, the accuracy increases.

This reminds me...I ought to send Lady Sage a pm about getting my chart done. I've lost the copy of the one I had. Trust me--the accuracies were spooky, especially in describing my personality. I have some very conflicting elements to my personality that few people catch, and surprise even those who know me well, yet a chart was able to pick up on it right away--and the chart I had done was via the Internet, by someone I didn't know from Adam, based only on my birthdate, time, and place.

they aren't vague because they are words about very specific things. it is as I stated, "it is the subject who provides the meaning."

So you can find meaning in anything put to you and how much meaning that may or may not be. Thus the target moves from left to right, forward to backward. Only you are the one who can say whether or not it is accurate or not. At that point one dismisses it as being a bad reader and one goes to find another one.

so again, validity would have to be posited via an external verification, meaning someone besides the subject. which seems impossible to me....

MSD · 09-25-2007, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

And you really think LadySage will go for this???

Damned if I'm not actually Laughing Out Loud now....

You guys are too funny......

I don't see why someone claiming absolute proof of the extraordinary should refuse a chance to present evidence in their favor ... unless there is no proof and the claim is invalid.

DaveOrion · 09-25-2007, 10:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSelfDestruct

I don't see why someone claiming absolute proof of the extraordinary should refuse a chance to present evidence in their favor ... unless there is no proof and the claim is invalid.

I knew you'd say that.....

Ustwo · 09-26-2007, 06:39 AM

From what I recall there is a million dollar prize out for anyone who can prove any paranormal abilities, and I would think Astrology would qualify.

Oddly no one has claimed that prize.

DaveOrion · 09-26-2007, 06:58 AM

I posted on the "skeptics forum" briefly, didn't stay, I hated it. No matter what the topic, there was always a band of naysayers out to spoil the fun. They don't even believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa, sad really.

You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just inexplicable & cant be categorized, labeled, or dissected.

Ustwo · 09-26-2007, 07:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just inexplicable & cant be categorized, labeled, or dissected.

Let me do the internet thing for you and fix that...

You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just false & are based on lies, superstition and people being easily fooled.

Radical Honesty FTW

tecoyah · 09-26-2007, 07:45 AM

At least to me, there is very little reason to express personal experience, or belief in most of the things people term as paranormal, spritual, or new age. It would seem to me a no lose situation to just remain quiet and continue to explore the benefits of using these things without trying to explain it to people who will never accept the good they might do, whether mental or physical.
Seriously, think about it. What do you have to gain by exposing yourself to the massive negativity projected by detractors of these things you use to become a better person?

Cynthetiq · 09-26-2007, 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ustwo

Let me do the internet thing for you and fix that...

You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just false & are based on lies, superstition and people being easily fooled.

Radical Honesty FTW

That reminded me of this:

Quote:

Let's imagine that I tell you the following story:

There is a man who lives at the North Pole.

He lives there with his wife and a bunch of elves.

During the year, he and the elves build toys.

Then, on Christmas Eve, he loads up a sack with all the toys.

He puts the sack in his sleigh.

He hitches up eight (or possibly nine) flying reindeer.

He then flies from house to house, landing on the rooftops of each one.

He gets out with his sack and climbs down the chimney.

He leaves toys for the children of the household.

He climbs back up the chimney, gets back in his sleigh, and flies to the next house.

He does this all around the world in one night.

Then he flies back to the North Pole to repeat the cycle next year.

This, of course, is the story of Santa Claus.

But let's say that I am an adult, and I am your friend, and I reveal to you that I believe that this story is true. I believe it with all my heart. And I try to talk about it with you and convert you to believe it as I do.

What would you think of me? You would think that I am delusional, and rightly so.

Why do you think that I am delusional? It is because you know that Santa is imaginary. The story is a total fairy tale. No matter how much I talk to you about Santa, you are not going to believe that Santa is real. Flying reindeer, for example, are make-believe. The dictionary defines delusion as, "A false belief strongly held in spite of invalidating evidence." That definition fits perfectly.

Since you are my friend, you might try to help me realize that my belief in Santa is delusional. The way that you would try to shake me from my delusion is to ask me some questions. For example, you might say to me:

"But how can the sleigh carry enough toys for everyone in the world?" I say to you that the sleigh is magical. It has the ability to do this intrinsically.

"How does Santa get into houses and apartments that don't have chimneys?" I say that Santa can make chimneys appear, as shown to all of us in the movie The Santa Clause.

"How does Santa get down the chimney if there's a fire in the fireplace?" I say that Santa has a special flame-resistant suit, and it cleans itself too.

"Why doesn't the security system detect Santa?" Santa is invisible to security systems.

"How can Santa travel fast enough to visit every child in one night?" Santa is timeless.

"How can Santa know whether every child has been bad or good?" Santa is omniscient.

"Why are the toys distributed so unevenly? Why does Santa deliver more toys to rich kids, even if they are bad, than he ever gives to poor kids?" There is no way for us to understand the mysteries of Santa because we are mere mortals, but Santa has his reasons. For example, perhaps poor children would be unable to handle a flood of expensive electronic toys. How would they afford the batteries? So Santa spares them this burden.

These are all quite logical questions that you have asked. I have answered all of them for you. I am wondering why you can't see what I see, and you are wondering how I can be so insane.

Why didn't my answers satisfy you? Why do you still know that I am delusional? It is because my answers have done nothing but confirm my delusion. My answers are ridiculous. In order to answer your questions, I invented, completely out of thin air, a magical sleigh, a magical self-cleaning suit, magical chimneys, "timelessness" and magical invisibility. You don't believe my answers because you know that I am making this stuff up. The invalidating evidence is voluminous.

roachboy · 09-26-2007, 08:20 AM

i dont understand why this thread is still stuck where it is.

it is pretty clear that there is a range of approaches to astrology, and that the weakest of them is that which would require that you accept its premises as still factual (the geocentric universe)--the debate with ustwo here has remained stuck within the assumption that this is the only way to think about astrology---and insofar as that is how the conversation has gone, i dont understand why folk are arguing with him as he is right--the problem is that this is not the only grounds on which one can approach it. historically, astrolgy is quite interesting. and it is not the case that a few thousand years of human interaction with astrology as one of a range of divination practices suddenly disappeared with kepler, copernicus and galileo...or is it the case that a thousand years of human activity suddenly became entirely stupid because there was a sequence of paradigm shifts in cosmology.

dave's main argument in response seems to be that there are things tht scientific descriptions cannot explain--well obviously--there is a shit-ton of things that scientific descriptions cannot explain, just as there is an enormous range of human experience that canot be jammed into sentence form without basically altering its logic. temporal experience, for example. simultaneous phenomena for another.

but the conclusion--that therefore astrology actually might have a scientific basis--doesnt follow. the arguments run more in the direction of generating conceptual problems for how scientific descriptions (and descriptions mor generally) operate, what they do (as over against what they say)--and so are of an entirely different order. you cant just say "scientific knowledge is limited because its descriptive powers are circumscribed" an then say "so astrology could be a science" as if b follows from a.

on the other hand
you can find alchemy interesting without necessarily accepting the assumptions that shaped--you can find it interesting as an exploration of the problems of categorization, of a logic that follows from the category of "noun"--if 1, 34, 108 are all names or nouns, then there is a way in which they are rendered equivalent as names or nouns--so logically it can follow that therefore one should be able to shift 34 into 108 without adding elements but rather by locating and sliding along this metaphysical space generated by the term "equivalent"....its metaphysics, sure, but that doesnt mean its not of some interest.

similar arguments could be made about magick.
i have done alot of work with magicians in generating sound environments--i think ritual is a device for focussing attention and that focus can generate very interesting outcomes--i dont have to share the assumptions that the magicians bring to bear on their own practice to find that practice interesting or generative. one of the main reasons why this sort of work has been important to me is the sense that i have and that the magicians have that we are working in parallel, even though i do not in the main find the devices they use to shape their attention to be aesthetically compelling, and they do not necessarily find the totally abstract way in which i see things to be so either. but in the doing, other things can unfold, so it hardly matters.

Bill O'Rights · 09-26-2007, 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

(Dave wonders if there really is intelligent life on Earth. Doubts it.......)

And you wonder why the space aliens won't make contact.

DaveOrion · 09-26-2007, 09:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill O'Rights

And you wonder why the space aliens won't make contact.

They wont make contact because you wont stop sending them all those pm's...

Quote:

Originally Posted by roachboy

dave's main argument in response seems to be that there are things that scientific descriptions cannot explain

True dat. I did throw in the string theory argument, which is theoretical & still unprovable, as a prime example of how strange the universe may actually be. Our understanding hasnt evolved sufficiently to properly explain our own planet, let alone the complexities of a multidimensional/multi universe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dimensions

Quote:

Theories such as string theory and M-theory predict that the space in general has in fact 10 or 11 dimensions, respectively, but that the universe, when measured along these additional dimensions, is subatomic in size. As a result, we perceive only the three spatial dimensions that have macroscopic size. We as humans can only perceive up to the third dimension while we have knowledge of our travel through the fourth. We cannot, however, see anything past the fourth.

So what exactly lies beyond the fourth dimension??? Perhaps there are invisble links that tie the universe together at the subatomic level, and since we're all a part of this universe its conceivable that we're linked to it too. Is is possible to key into all this??? I have no freakin idea....

Ustwo · 09-26-2007, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

True dat. I did throw in the string theory argument, which is theoretical & still unprovable, as a prime example of how strange the universe may actually be. Our understanding hasnt evolved sufficiently to properly explain our own planet, let alone the complexities of a multidimensional/multi universe.

The difference is that while string theory does fit mathematical models it can't be tested and therefore is just a theory to be investigated, its not accepted as true.

Astrology has been tested and comes up lacking each time.

The only people saying Astrology is beyond testing tend to be astrologers. If you would like some experimental examples I'll be happy to provide them.

wheelhomies · 09-26-2007, 11:41 AM

i would like to see them.

DaveOrion · 09-26-2007, 09:24 PM

I'm tired of beating this dead horse, could we start a sub-topic about Vaginal, Clitoral, and Multiple Orgasms???

Someone remind me how I ended up arguing for astrology when my first post in this thread said....

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaveMatrix

I personally don't think that planets or stars billions of miles away can actually affect you, but I cant prove they don't either.

The_Jazz · 09-27-2007, 04:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelhomies

Hmmm. I'm not really sure if this is posted in the right place, but I figured it fits here well enough.

Just wondering how astrology is generally received here on TFP, so what are your thoughts about it?

Some people will back it up. Some people won't. A lot of people will wander by, look at the thread and not post anything.

And DaveMatrix will somehow end up arguing for what he was neutral on at the start.

Does that answer your question?

DaveOrion · 09-27-2007, 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The_Jazz

Some people will back it up. Some people won't. A lot of people will wander by, look at the thread and not post anything.

And DaveMatrix will somehow end up arguing for what he was neutral on at the start.

Does that answer your question?

Oh I think her question was answered long ago in this thread.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wheelhomies

yeah, i noticed the paranoia section is perceivably less popular than almost any other.

Ustwo · 09-27-2007, 01:25 PM

Mmmm now I get to be paranoid as I've had two posts in this thread disappear, one was a few days ago I thought was maybe and now one today.

First one wasn't worth reposting at the time, it was to dave, but the second was to wheelhomies request so I'll have to dig that up again.

09-21-2007, 11:29 AM	#44 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	Actually I was the one that brought up disrespect, which wasn't aimed at you, but a particular member who wasn't able to verbalize his opinion without resorting to name calling. Your opinion seems concise, and comprehensible without being obnoxious. Its often not what you say, but how you say it. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-22-2007, 09:55 AM	#48 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	If you knew I was joking, then you could have placed a smiley face on your post, so I'd know that you knew I was only joking. Otherwise I wouldn't know that you knew, I might think you were serious, I might have a nervous breakdown and foam at the mouth, like a stark raving mad lunatic. Wait......that already happened.... (smiley included) __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-22-2007, 10:49 AM	#49 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	...it sounds like someone's ruling planet is Mars.... __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot

09-22-2007, 08:28 PM	#50 (permalink)
wheelhomies Upright Location: New York	lol...the mars thing actually kind of fits. point proven? anyway, ustwo, get a chart done. have lady sage do yours for free. __________________ "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

09-22-2007, 11:07 PM	#52 (permalink)
Baraka_Guru warrior bodhisattva Super Moderator Location: East-central Canada	I think that astrology has some interesting historical and cultural value. I see a lot of beauty in the texts and visual components. I cannot say I really believe much in it, though I must say that I have never really taken it seriously. Everything considered, I place astrology in the same category as other such noble attempts at understanding the universe and ourselves, including alchemy, the Four Temperaments, and the Atkins diet. __________________ Knowing that death is certain and that the time of death is uncertain, what's the most important thing? —Bhikkhuni Pema Chödrön Humankind cannot bear very much reality. —From "Burnt Norton," Four Quartets (1936), T. S. Eliot Last edited by Baraka_Guru; 09-22-2007 at 11:09 PM..

09-23-2007, 05:19 AM	#53 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	(Dave wonders if there really is intelligent life on Earth. Doubts it.......) __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-23-2007, 02:48 PM	#54 (permalink)
wheelhomies Upright Location: New York	lady sage, if you haven't already abandoned this thread, would you mind taking a guess at my sign? and just so there's no confusion i'm not asking for any purpose other than curiosity. just wondering what kind of impression i give. __________________ "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

09-25-2007, 07:56 AM	#62 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	And you really think LadySage will go for this??? Damned if I'm not actually Laughing Out Loud now.... You guys are too funny...... __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-26-2007, 06:39 AM	#67 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	From what I recall there is a million dollar prize out for anyone who can prove any paranormal abilities, and I would think Astrology would qualify. Oddly no one has claimed that prize. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

09-26-2007, 06:58 AM	#68 (permalink)
DaveOrion Playing With Fire Location: Disaster Area	I posted on the "skeptics forum" briefly, didn't stay, I hated it. No matter what the topic, there was always a band of naysayers out to spoil the fun. They don't even believe in the Easter Bunny or Santa, sad really. You're right, the million dollar prize remains unclaimed. Possibly because some things are just inexplicable & cant be categorized, labeled, or dissected. __________________ *Syriana*...have you ever tried liquid MDMA?....Liquid MDMA? No....Arash, when you wanna do this?.....After prayer...

09-26-2007, 07:45 AM	#70 (permalink)
tecoyah Illusionary	At least to me, there is very little reason to express personal experience, or belief in most of the things people term as paranormal, spritual, or new age. It would seem to me a no lose situation to just remain quiet and continue to explore the benefits of using these things without trying to explain it to people who will never accept the good they might do, whether mental or physical. Seriously, think about it. What do you have to gain by exposing yourself to the massive negativity projected by detractors of these things you use to become a better person? __________________ Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

09-26-2007, 08:20 AM	#72 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i dont understand why this thread is still stuck where it is. it is pretty clear that there is a range of approaches to astrology, and that the weakest of them is that which would require that you accept its premises as still factual (the geocentric universe)--the debate with ustwo here has remained stuck within the assumption that this is the only way to think about astrology---and insofar as that is how the conversation has gone, i dont understand why folk are arguing with him as he is right--the problem is that this is not the only grounds on which one can approach it. historically, astrolgy is quite interesting. and it is not the case that a few thousand years of human interaction with astrology as one of a range of divination practices suddenly disappeared with kepler, copernicus and galileo...or is it the case that a thousand years of human activity suddenly became entirely stupid because there was a sequence of paradigm shifts in cosmology. dave's main argument in response seems to be that there are things tht scientific descriptions cannot explain--well obviously--there is a shit-ton of things that scientific descriptions cannot explain, just as there is an enormous range of human experience that canot be jammed into sentence form without basically altering its logic. temporal experience, for example. simultaneous phenomena for another. but the conclusion--that therefore astrology actually might have a scientific basis--doesnt follow. the arguments run more in the direction of generating conceptual problems for how scientific descriptions (and descriptions mor generally) operate, what they do (as over against what they say)--and so are of an entirely different order. you cant just say "scientific knowledge is limited because its descriptive powers are circumscribed" an then say "so astrology could be a science" as if b follows from a. on the other hand you can find alchemy interesting without necessarily accepting the assumptions that shaped--you can find it interesting as an exploration of the problems of categorization, of a logic that follows from the category of "noun"--if 1, 34, 108 are all names or nouns, then there is a way in which they are rendered equivalent as names or nouns--so logically it can follow that therefore one should be able to shift 34 into 108 without adding elements but rather by locating and sliding along this metaphysical space generated by the term "equivalent"....its metaphysics, sure, but that doesnt mean its not of some interest. similar arguments could be made about magick. i have done alot of work with magicians in generating sound environments--i think ritual is a device for focussing attention and that focus can generate very interesting outcomes--i dont have to share the assumptions that the magicians bring to bear on their own practice to find that practice interesting or generative. one of the main reasons why this sort of work has been important to me is the sense that i have and that the magicians have that we are working in parallel, even though i do not in the main find the devices they use to shape their attention to be aesthetically compelling, and they do not necessarily find the totally abstract way in which i see things to be so either. but in the doing, other things can unfold, so it hardly matters. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

09-26-2007, 11:41 AM	#76 (permalink)
wheelhomies Upright Location: New York	i would like to see them. __________________ "All men dream, but not equally. Those who dream by night in the dusty recesses of their minds wake in the day to find that it was vanity. But the dreamers of the day are dangerous men, for they may act on their dreams with open eyes to make it possible." - T.E. Lawrence

09-27-2007, 01:25 PM	#80 (permalink)
Ustwo Pissing in the cornflakes	Mmmm now I get to be paranoid as I've had two posts in this thread disappear, one was a few days ago I thought was maybe and now one today. First one wasn't worth reposting at the time, it was to dave, but the second was to wheelhomies request so I'll have to dig that up again. __________________ Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.