pan6467

I have been wondering this of late and the more I think about it the more I realize this could be something. I'd appreciate a debate from a "true Christian" that would disagree with the following theory.

Ok, so Revelations said the Beast will come and 144,000 souls will vanish leaving the rest here. Those that stay have to stay with Jesus, starve, get beheaded and so on or accept the number and be damned to Hell.

Jesus, in the Sermon on the Mount, warned of false prophets and men that stated they knew him but didn't.

So...... today we see the likes of Falwell, Robertson, the Pope and a vast majority of the denominational leaders from Baptist to Evangelical to even the Mormons and 7th Day Adventists (Both of whom have pretty much changed from their founders visions to a more "mainstream, follow the others type"), more or less siding with one political viewpoint (primarily the GOP and Right)... what if these leaders are not truly teaching the word of Jesus but teaching their own agendas.

What if these leaders and our political leaders start telling us in order to fight "terrorism", "illegal alien", etc. we need to accept numbers, micrdot implants, etc.?

Now mind you your own church leaders are saying this....... what do you do?

I already see massive hypocrasy in true Christianity and what is passed for it today. The vast majority of these "Christians" do whatever they want, and use the whole "I've been saved and accept Jesus as my Savior" as they raise rents in their slums, as they vote down education levies, as they pass judgement on others, as they get divorced, as they down drinks and drive, as they try to own and gain all they can on Earth and basically live as hypocrites and don't live by what Jesus taught.

The people actually living closest to the true teachings of Christ are the Amish.

Anyway, I digress..... so...... tell me Christians who follow your leaders.... what would you do or what will you do when your own leaders start telling you to take the number and that in doing so you will reach Heaven... that all of a sudden they have come to some realization that the Bible meant those who don't take the number are destined to Hell..... or some such rubbish.

P.S. this truly isn't meant as a rant against "Christianity", it is my wanting to understand how you have allowed your churches, your leaders to become so political and power hunger and yet you follow them and question nothing.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

byesman

I am a Baptist, and I do not believe or follow any of the people you mentioned. My church is an Independent Baptist Church, believing that the minister serves the deacons, and the deacons serve the congregation, which is the church. I do understand what you are saying, and I do agree with you about the hypocrisy. The men you mentioned are not church leaders to me.
In fact, I think that some of them, if not most of them, use the guise of Christianity to advance their own agenda of power and glory.

As for me, I have historically only listened to a couple of people, my parents, my siblings and now my wife. I do not believe in these men. I believe in God, but not in some of his self-proclaimed "profits".

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If after I depart this vale you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost,
forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl.

H.L. Mencken

Bill O'Rights

Pan, I don't think that you're going to find to many followers of Falwell and Robertson here. Even among the "believers", they are viewed as somewhat of a lunatic fringe.
Be that as it may, even if there were one or two that happen to frequent the TFP, I feel that the verbage of your OP would rightfully inhibit them from stepping forward. You seem to be arming for battle...not debate. Just my opinion, for what it's worth. That'll be 2 cents, please

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"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

pan6467

Very good points Bill, I didn't mean it to come off that way. I just had heard the Pat Robertson news clip and finally decided to post the question, it just seems to me he and his ilk tend to repel people against Christianity. I don't think they are so dumb not to know this...... so if they know this and they know that isn't how Christ taught, why do they continue down that road? Is it to keep repeling people from Christ, is it a hidden agenda to eventually make way for my theory that they actually tell their followers to take the number?

It's something that interests me.

I appreciate your honesty and it sounds like you come from a very good church system, wish there were more like that and like you, perhaps we wouldn't be in such weird times.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

ShaniFaye

can I interject here a few things that I see "wrong" with the OP? (keep in mind this is the way I was taught)

The 144000 that are "going" are from the 12 original tribes (thought to be the orthodox jews) they do not have to accept christ to go, they are taken because of their steadfastness in their faith...they didnt believe Jesus was the son of god, but as they have not wavered in their faith they are the first ones up.

Next you have those that are saved, this is where things like people just disappearing come into play. We will hear the horn blow and we will be gone in the twinkling of an eye.

Then the people left will suffer the tribulation, getting one more chance to turn to god before the "end"

this is also dependant which tribulation theory you believe (whether its before, during or after....Im a before believer)


that said.....I truly believe people like falwell and robertson in their early lives were good people....I think years of being put on a pedestal have corrupted them and God is going to laugh in their face come judgment day

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Emergency Exit

Actually, most churches are set up like that where I live. At least, the protestant churches are. I'm a protestant, and every church I've been to is actually fairly democratic. The pastor doesn't get to just go off and say whatever he wants. He answers to the elders or deacons, and they answer to the people of the church. Like Bill's church.

I think you're thinking of more extremist fundamentalist Christianity. Remember, what you hear and see in the news is far different from the mainstream. News about how some guy goes to church every Sunday, loves his Muslim neighbor as much as himself and gives regularly to charity isn't going to sell. Just keep in mind that on the news you're always hearing the more extremist version of a belief system whether it be Christianity, Islam, conservatism or liberalism. It's always the more extremist version. I'm not saying there aren't people like that that exist. There just aren't as many of them as you think. They're the ones that are always going around shouting about all the wrong in the world so you miss all the mainstream, moderate people who don't really need to say anything because they're complacent.

But yes, people who do not practice what they teach do not deserve to be listened to nor do they deserve respect. I have a feeling it's like what Shani says. They started out meaning for the best, and later down the road they've gotten a bit misguided.

Also, there's a lot of people who are hypocrites in their belief system but remember that in America, a majority of the population says they are Christian. That means statistically, the majority of the hypocrites you come across will be Christian, too. In a more Muslim dominated country, the majority of the hypocrites would be Muslim. In Israel, they'd be Jewish. And so on.

SirLance

I have been struggling with my membership in the Roman Catholic Church (see this thread for my comments on my formal defection from the Church). Ultimately, I left. I did this for a variety of reasons, but mostly because I don't find God in the dogma and ritual.

I think the only real authority on Christianity is the canon of the new testament. If you want to know Christ's teachings, read the Gospels, and if you want to learn what the first Christians did to follow him, read the various epistles and letters.

Revelation is prophetic and apocryphal, and must be read in that light. Much of what is in Revelation is symbolic, and actually speaks of the Christian persecution at the hands of the Romans. In other words, the events Revelation speaks of are actually contemporary to it.

But, like anything subject to interpretation, the best course is to read, understand the context (which means you must understand the customs and practices of first century Judea). Also, you have to remember that you are reading a translation and some nuances may be lost. The best is the Oxford annotated study bible, because it covers these areas.

That said, I'm just as competent as Pat Robertson, and really am not willing to take his word for it. Oh, I'll listen to what a minister says, but if I'm not familiar with that particular teaching, I'm going to go see for myself, and I think that true faith requires the effort to understand these things.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

byesman

Exactly. I was raised in this church, and although our preacher isn't the greatest "minister", in my opinion, I can still respect the message he brings every Sunday. But when/if he goes off on a tangent, like a couple of months ago, when he even got confused trying to make a point, I do not hesitate to call him out. I think we need to look at preachers as those who preach the word of God, but also we need to understand that each of us is responsibile for following that word and if we don't understand how it meets the teachings of the Bible, we need to ask how it does.

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If after I depart this vale you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost,
forgive some sinner, and wink your eye at some homely girl.

H.L. Mencken

mixedmedia

I think media figures like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell and the like are engaged in the production of theater for those who need that extra rush of drama in their lives. The adrenaline of extreme thought. Personally, I don't think they believe most of the things they say, they are feeding their audience just like any other television show.

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PESSIMISM, n. A philosophy forced upon the convictions of the observer by the disheartening prevalence of the optimist with his scarecrow hope and his unsightly smile. - Ambrose Bierce

Willravel

Why would God allow these religious people to be in power, perverting His words and using them to control his flock? It's not like Christians have a tough enough time trying derperately to believe that God created the universe when no evidence exists to support that, now they have to worry about their own leadership? It's ridiculous. I'd ask God if He'd do something about it, but he can't take a direct role in our world anymore for some reason, so it'd be wasted breath.

SirLance

In other words, a Christian should follow Christ. Not Pat Robertson or Jerry Fallwell.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

pan6467

I respect what you say SirL and it is damned powerful, but the fact is Robertson gets millions of viewers, he can influence elections in some parts of the country and shift a few %age points in the rest, BILLIONS are donated to him, Falwell, Roberts, and the "Jesus" Mafia they have going.

See what puzzles me is every time I talk to a Christian about these televangelists, surprisingly, NOONE claims to follow them, except for my aunt, who was one of Pat's leading people in his animation department in the late 80's early 90's.

So, then the questions of "If noone follows them how and where do they get all this money?" and "If noone is proud enough to say they follow what he (or Falwell, or Roberts, or Angley) says, then shouldn't that say something right there, if you have to hide, lie and deny that fact, then it isn't good for your religious beliefs, is it?"

I don't know, like has been said elsewhere, here on TFP finding followers of these men are probably rare.

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

abaya

I think you make some excellent points here. I was a protestant evangelical for many years, and I knew (and still know) some very good people in quite a few different denominations, including Catholics. I think that these folks really do not get enough attention at all. We are all human. Instead, they are slotted into the same box as Falwell and the rest, which is too bad for those who are actually trying to live a good life and imitate Christ. Some Christians deserve a very bad rap. Many others do not.

That said, I have stopped calling myself a Christian because I was no longer walking the walk, and I did not want to be considered a hypocrite. I was at the point where it was no longer real for me, and to go on pretending that I was still a part of the club, even as a "sinner," would have been disingenuous.

Anyway, I want to call attention to your second good point: that most of the moderates you mention are complacent. This is what I find to be the most interesting dynamic of American Christianity. What is with the "silent majority?" Are they so subdivided into their denominations and churches and leaders that they cannot come together and overcome their noisy, irksome brethren?

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And think not you can direct the course of Love;
for Love, if it finds you worthy, directs your course.
--Khalil Gibran

SirLance

Maybe nobody's willing to admit it....

To your point, they clearly have followers. Where else can the money come from? Perhaps they are not thinking "I follow Pat Robertson," so much as "Pat Robertson is doing God's work, and deserves my support."

Even though I don't think he's doing God's work, enough people do that he has a healthy income.

Abe Lincoln said, "You can fool some of the people some of the time..." If his average contribution is $50, he only needs to fool one million people into contributing, and he has $50,000,000. That's less than 1% of the workforce.

Hey... I think I need to be a televangelist...

To expand a little, that $50 mil might represent a small percentage of the population, it is certainly enough bread to buy influence, and to affect the outcome of an election.

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DEMOCRACY is where your vote counts, FEUDALISM is where your count votes.

pan6467

I will say in his defense Billy Graham does not need to be labelled in the above groupings. He always seemed truly wanting to help people and teach by example. I do think Robert Schuller and his "Hour of Power" is another, who deserves some good mentionings. They bring forth positive messages, they don't play political hyenas and they don't sit there acting better, holier, smarter and say they "talk to God and he says, send me millions".

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I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

Lady Sage

I agree with some of the above... for instance.

I dont recall christianity requiring a membership fee. Donations should be used to pay the bills of the church and then fund a soup kitchen or help out the needy in the community. Not squander it into multi million dollar CD's like I see them do where I work.

I honestly do not care what religion one is or what ones beliefs are in that religion. So long as they walk the walk instead of being a hypocrite.

Amish? Yes, Amish are fabulous. If the world went to hell tomorrow(nuclear or otherwise) they would keep on doing what they have done all along and probably not give our passing more consideration than a prayer.

__________________
If only closed minds came with closed mouths.
Minds are like parachutes, they function best when open.
It`s Easier to Change a Condom Than a Diaper
Yes, the rumors are true... I actually AM a Witch.

Elphaba

Great topic, Pan. I read something recently that probably applies to the Falwell et al group of teleevangelists. Some people require a very strong leadership figure that brings them comfort in their worldview and silences the doubts and questions that challenge that view. The members of tfp are unlikely to have social relationships with this type of mindset because for the most part we are not fearful of a contradictory belief and may even seek to understand what lies behind that 'other' belief.

Also, there is the false Christian that others have already mentioned, who prey upon the faithful for their own advancement. They are the ones that are most visable to us and it is easy to slip into the belief that the few getting attention represent the whole. I believe there are far more "humble shephards" than grandstanders in the Christian world.

In answer to your OP, I am not a Christian as normally understood. My values have been derived by the New Testament so in that regard it can be said that I follow the teachings of Jesus to the best that I can. I do not follow those who claim to speak for Jesus or that Jesus speaks through them. My relationship to my maker is a private one and is not a part of any doctrine of organized religion of any sect. Does that make any sense?

JustDisGuy

I was raised in the United Church, and quit when they started ordaining homosexuals. I have not found a church since then that actually practises what the Bible preaches, therefore I do not attend a church or follow any mortal leader.

My very simplistic view of the New Testament pretty much boils down to what I'm told are called the two beatitudes: Love thy God, and love thy neighbor. If you do those two things, you can't really go far wrong. Revelations is a book that is not meant to be understood except by those for whom it is written. And yes, there are certainly many "false prophets" leading people astray, even today.

Now, because I suspect I would hear a return post regarding my decision to leave the church I was raised in, I must say that loving your neighbor and being preached to by your neighbor who refuses to repent of his sin are not the same thing at all. We're all sinners, and we're all saved by grace, and I guess if it's a sin to hold my opinions about homosexuality I'll have to face the music when my time comes, too.

As for those televangelists whose avarice you have noted - I do not donate, but neither is it for me to judge them on their actions. They'll have to be responsible for their actions themselves, when the time comes. The people who are misled are unlikely to value my opinion on the matter, so there's little that I can do about that.

Interesting thread - thanks.

pan6467

Some very good points Elph and Just..... Thank you for sharing.

__________________
I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

hambone

Ok, first, forgive me if my attempt to say what I mean is less than eloquent.

I want to say that I belong to a church that is committed to following the teachings of the Bible without all the politics and whatnot intertwined. In fact, although I know my pastor's views on certain political issues (this only because we are also friends) he refuses to bring any of this into a sermon or any capacity in which is seen as the 'leader' of a group of people. Yes, there will be teachings on things that could be deemed political I guess, but only when backed by Scriptures.

Also, our church has a variety of pastor's and boards that meet to discuss the decisions that the church makes and the image it conveys. This is too help guard against the fact that the pastor is simply a man, he makes mistakes, and most importantly, he can be wrong.

Prayer is a term thrown around very loosely as well, but my belief is that any corporate action of a church or televangelist or whatever, should be questioned by the individuals that hear it and then be prayed about. I do believe in a personal God that will answer your prayers. Why listen to pastor tell you what God says, when you can ask yourself. (this is not to say I believe followers of Christ shoudl not attend churches, but that is a different discussion)

Back to the point though, I would still claim that I am a Christian that does follow my 'leaders' as you put it. However, I do not do so blindly. I follow my pastor often because I believe he is in line with God's will most of the time, and he proves it to me the best he can with Scripture, but MOST importantly, consistently stresses the importance of seeking God's will personally as individuals. If I do so and find him in the wrong, he encourages me to come to him and tell him why. Just because he has the title of Pastor, doesn't mean he cannot misinterpret something.

Finally, just touching on the rampant hypocracy of self proclaimed Christians:
I somewhat agree. I believe this is a huge problem and it shows that the worst enemy of a follower of Christ is fellow Christians who fail. It's the whole if you talk the talk, walk the walk thing. This is a messy area though. There are categories of this:
1. People who do contrary to what they preach to others....and are not repentant/remorseful. This is hypocracy, no if ands or buts. This is completely wrong.

2. People who do contrary to what they preach....and repent. They screwed up. Just because you know what God desires of you and make your mind up to not do the things God does not desire, does not mean the temptation to commit such acts is gone. Or that you lack maturity in what you believe. That is the whole beauty of Christ though. Jesus was sent to be an eternal sacrifice to 'pay' for the sins of the followers of God. You can read in the old testament of all the situations and the specific ritual sacrifices that the people would make to atone for their sins. When Jesus was crucified, He became the new covenant of God, deeming the other sacrifices unecessary in that his blood was sufficient to cover all sin.

Those who do whatever they feel and hide behind the veil that they know Christ and therefore are forgiven are in the wrong. I do believe that they are forgiven, I do not believe that they are in line with God's will AT ALL when this occurs.



**

I am sorry if this is segmented or unclear or seems to lapse into classic 'christian-ese' speech. I am at work at the moment and trying to multi-task

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"Like liquid white from fallen glass,
Nothing to cry over"