RonRyan85

If you listen to ART BELL on late night radio you will
hear lots of stories of people seeing big black triangles,
shiney saucer ships,crashes of space ships near the ROSWELL
ARMY AIR BASE in July of 1947 and how our government in
Washington,D.C. knows about all this and has kept it a
secret for over 50 years. Some people like writer WHITNEY
STREIBER thinks he has had visits from alien bio-robotic
beings called "GREYS" and has been observed and watched by
them for many years. Some people claim they have been taken
aboard "Space Ships" and had their sperm(Males) and eggs
(Females)taken from them and then returned to where they
were abducted. DO YOU BELIEVE any or all of this? It does
sound weird.....but could all of these people be telling
lies? Air Force people,Police and other persons with nothing
to gain claim to have seen UFOs and many claim to have had
taken pictures of them. GORDON COOPER,former AIR FORCE Officer
and ASTRONAUT said he and others filmed a saucer land on a
air force runway in EDWARDS AIR BASE around 1975 and they
gave the film to the Air Force and never saw or heard from
it again. Some reports of saucers put 8 or 9 of the COLD
WAR MINUTEMAN rockets out of service for several hours in
a time when nothing was believed to do that to the missile
complex. IS any or ALL of the reports TRUE? IS OUR government
keeping the ALIENS a SECRET because there is NOTHING they
can do to prevent the ALIENS from their plans for us?

darens42

i am paranoid of people that stay up & listen to Art Bell & actually believe what they hear...

ever hear of the Weekly World News ? ( http://www.weeklyworldnews.com/ )

Art Bell is the radio version of that...

I want to believe too - but come on... Art Bell?

__________________
I'm not superstitious - it's bad luck to be superstitious

Ch'i

It would take alot of evidence to prove to me that there is other life in the universe; It would take alot more evidence to prove to me that this life was intelligent; It would take an abundance of evidence to prove to me that this intelligent life actually comes into contact with us.

genuinegirly

Nope. I don't think they're out there. They could be. I don't want to meet them if they are, and I don't want to live my life with the fear that they might just take me, too.

__________________
"Sometimes I have to remember that things are brought to me for a reason, either for my own lessons or for the benefit of others." Cynthetiq

"violence is no more or less real than non-violence." roachboy

Lady Sage

I feel about aliens the same way I feel about the space program... If we can put a man on the moon or aliens can fly here from far far away... why cant they invent (or bring us) a toothpaste that doesnt taste rancid with orange juice?

The world may never know...

Willravel

It'd be cool if intelligent extra terrestrial life existed, but I haven't seen any proof yet. All I've seen is the same old "there are billions of stars many with planets, so therefore there must be life" argument. That argument is fundamentally flawed, and shame on anyone who makes it.

Mojo_PeiPei

What is so fundamentally flawed with that arguement will? In the context of this discussion it is seemingly the most viable. Have you heard of the Drake equation? X amount of planets in our solar system. X amount has stars similar to our own. X amount are in similar proximity as earth is to her sun. X amount has/had the basic starting conditions. X amount of planets fostered tie foundation of life. X amount of life took. X amount grew. X amount grew intelligent. I am forgetful of the exact equation, but the point remains. IN our galaxy of some 200 billion stars, it is seemingly mathimatically improbable (impossible being to strong a word) for there to no intelligent life else where.

That being said, the issue is of space travel is where you would get no argument from me. That whole light barrier space travel thing is pretty overwhelming. Then again, we haven't even been a techincal civilization for a century (radio and such), so we are wholly ignorant on the issue.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Willravel

I know all about the Drake equation. It calculates the number of technological civilizations we should expect to find in our galaxy by multiplying a small amount of estimated quantities and probabilities. Good old SETI scientists assume so much that it makes my head spin. The funniest thing is that I saw all sorts of students passing their astro classes by applying DE to the Martian Meteroite. Guess what students and teachers: they have not proven that meteor was a meteor at all, they certianly have not proven that it was from Mars, and they haven't proven that the critters in it were actually critters at all.

Let me put it this way: our understanding of the universe is insignificant. Our understanding of the variables that can create life (note: I don't just mean life here on Earth, but life et all) is basically nothing. Could hydrogen based life forms exist? No one on Earth has any idea. Could life forms life on solar waves? Pfft, we have no idea. Could life exist in a vaccume? You tell me. We don't have life from other planets to compare to our own, so therefore we have nothing to compare our planet to. Because there are no numbers to put in the equation when it comes to actual life, there is no way that anyone - scientist or not - can say with any credibility that there is intelligent life elsewhere. Sure there could be, but based on what we know now, there is no way to say yes or no. Bottom line: life exists on Earth, however that fact does not give us any likelyhood of life elsewhere. It is entirely possible that life is a fluke that only developed on one planet, in one solar system, in one galaxy, and in one universe. It could be that the variables needed to make life are so unlikely that our existence is a fluke. There is no way to know because we only have a tiny part of the whole picture. To assume that small part of the picture has all the answers is quite an assumption.

I can't tell you how many times I've said this to people. I suspect that the "math says" explaination is more based in hope than math.

Edit: I'm not a fan of the Fermi Paradox aswell, as it generalizes and assumes just as much as DE.

freeload

Sorry to go OT, but there IS a toothpaste I buy at my pharmacy called Zendium without all the soap and stuff regular toothpaste has. I was given a sample tube and ordered to go home, brush and then enjoy a glass of orange juice....tasted like OJ

At my highschool there's a projec named "The Hessdalen project", trying to uncover mystic UFO-like events at a place called Hessdalen (This is in Norway).

I don't believe in aliens visiting us, but I believe we have a lot more left to discover about our own surroundings and the forces of nature.

Regarding assumptions in "science", I one read: "Assumption is the mother of all screw ups"

__________________
The future ain't what it used to be.

Infinite_Loser

I reckon they're probably having this same conversation on a distant planet somewhere...

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

The_Jazz

I wonder if the alien version of me is also being an asshole for threadjacking?

__________________
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety." - B. Franklin
"There ought to be limits to freedom." - George W. Bush
"We have met the enemy and he is us." - Pogo

opus123

Aliens in my head are telling me to post more so I can get an avatar. *jk*

Actually my dad and gma (rip) believe(d) in alien life. But I have seen no proof. Their proof was in the late 60's when my dad was a pilot in the navy and was learning to fly everything the Navy had, he and my gma saw something in the sky in southern California. He told me that it accellerated up and turned too fast for a human to survive the g forces. Anyway, I was only 1 or 2 years old so it is possible his eyes did not see correctly. But his eyes at 62 are now at 20/20 vision and the main reason he got to be a Navy pilot was that his eyes were 3 steps better than 20/20. Anyway, I am more inclined to believe that all alien sightings are actually us earthling from the future when we have time travel and such. That seem more plausible since the faster than light space travel would prohibit super distant aliens from visiting. *shrug*

One odd quote a friend told me...."Ants don't really know much about humanity in any real complex way, so aliens, that are way advanced, would not really care or want to meet humanity, since we are so below them in every way."

Jonathan

__________________
"We are sure to be losers when we quarrel with
ourselves. It is a civil war, and in all such
contentions, triumphs are defeats." Mr Colton
==================================

balderdash111

In fairness to the Drake EQUATION, those who understand it do not use it as PROOF of life on other planets. It is, instead a TOOL to show that, given a very large number of stars, even if the individual circumstances that allow life to exist on EARTH are improbable, you are LIKELY to have a reasonable number of OTHER "HITS".

(odd capitalization in tribute to original post)

Here is a link to the equation, courtesy of Nova: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/origins/drake.html

Will, you allude to a question that I have always pondered - why do we assume that certain conditions must exist for life (e.g., water)? Is it not possible for life to exist without it?

Actually, a quick google showed a thread in another board on this subject, which you may find interesting:

http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=7865

Contrary to Will, however, I would expect the possibility that life could arise in other forms to significantly increase the likelihood of there being life on other planets.

__________________
A little silliness now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -- Willy Wonka

Bill O'Rights

Now, I'm not sayin' they're not...but if space aliens are visiting Earth and taking people...then why do they only abduct backwoods country hicks that are drunk off their asses on "corn squeezin's? (no offense intended to drunken backwoods country hicks )

Why aren't they trying to get their hands on some prime specimens, like Denise Richards or Halle Berry or someone along those lines?

Think about it. If these "beings" are intelligent enough to traverse the universe, then why aren't they intelligent enough to recognize that they ain't exactly scooping off the cream of the crop here?

__________________
"I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." - Susan B. Anthony

"Hedonism with rules isn't hedonism at all, it's the Republican party." - JumpinJesus

It is indisputable that true beauty lies within...but a nice rack sure doesn't hurt.

balderdash111

ah, but that is part of their insidious plan, isn't it? Take people that nobody will believe and/or that, frankly, will not cause society to spend a lot of resources trying to find. If Denise Richards were to disappear one day, I would expect a pretty big hunt - even if only by the press.

Them aliens are super smart....

__________________
A little silliness now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -- Willy Wonka

Willravel

You've illustrated my point exactly. Because we have no idea what life looks like, acts like, or requires elsewhere, it's absurd to try and create equations about extraterrestrial life. Imagine if I were to say, "Well, there is life on 1 out of 8 planets in our solar system, therefore every 1 out of 8 planets in the universe has life". That's how I see the Drake Equation. It's massively simplistic, assumes a great deal, and only has the tiny perspective of our little planet and solar system. It's like asking a 2 year old who just learned basic math (1+1=2) to explain advanced calculus.

Ustwo

While the Drake equation is nothing but educated guess + assumptions = make believe number, it really doesn't matter. Based on the pervasiveness of life on Earth, its in ever nook and cranny, under great pressure, in high heat, deep in the rocks, locked in crystals etc, I'm willing to make the assumption that life is more common than uncommon if the conditions are favorable. In this the Drake Equation, while still make believe, can give a hint at the number of favorable planets to have life evolve. I'd say the only big question isn't is if there is life out there, but if there is intelligent life out there. I've seen nothing to show that intelligent life is more favorable to survival, and may be a hindrance. Many species on earth have been around unchanged for eons, when we get there, we can decide.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

balderdash111

One point adding to the difficulty of the search is that the currently available search methods will only find intelligent life that happened to be broadcasting signals into space during the very small window we have been around (so far) to receive them (taking into account the time that must pass while the signals travel to us - so they could be long dead by the time we hear them)

That's not to say they don't exist, but it makes them less likely to be found by us (short of interstellar archaeology - how cool would that be??)

Again, in fairness to the Drake equation - I don't think many would argue that it can accurately predict the number of planets with intelligent life. Rather it is a tool to show how even low probability events - given a broad enough sample size - will result in significant numbers of hits.

As to being simplistic and assuming a great deal, that is probably true. However, I would suggest you look at the variables in the equation. Again, not looking at it as a predictive tool, I am hard pressed to add variables they did not think of. If anything, I would be deleting variables (e.g., it is based on an assumption that life must arise on planets, which may not be true, if I know my Star Trek ).

Obviously, each individual variable itself has dozens of underlying variables. For example, in order to reach the variable for the number of planets capable of sustaining life you would technically need to come up with an equation solving for the number of planets that would have whatever you think it necessary to sustain life. They "skip to the end" by asking you to plug in the answer rather than try to actually work out how you get there.

__________________
A little silliness now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -- Willy Wonka

Willravel

In my mind it matter quite a bit that the DE is 99.99% based in assumptions. While I'd love to believe that some day we'll meet Spock (or, more importantly, T'Pol), I still have to say there there is no information to base that on. I see extra terrestrial life as being similar to religion. It may very well be true (and it would be facinating if it could be proven), but it's not true just yet.

OH MAN, I'd be all over that career.
But, as you stated before, why do we assume that certain conditions must exist for life? The equasion is radically simplistic if it only draws on our understanding of life on one planet out of trillions in the universe. How do we even know if the circumstances that lead to our existence would even work elsewhere? Because we have nothing to compare to offworld, any guesswork is a waste of time. Imagine that instead of thousands of households, there was only one nielsen box attached to one TV? Would that be an accurate rating for the nation?
Hey, knowing your Star Trek puts you a notch up on my list. Gomtuu (a.k.a. Tin Man, from ST: TNG) was supposedly birthed in space. Yeah, I'm a nerd. Neeways, Star Trek is a good example of two things: 1) life can be more varied than we can possibly imagine, or 2) people love the idea that there is extraterrestrial life out there, espically really hot Orion slave girls. Number 1 is something that can be eternally debated, but until we actually shake hands with ET there will be no certianty. Number 2 is a big problem, because the idea of extraterrestrial life is beamed into our heads from a very young age. I don't know about you, but I was raised by Roddenberry, Lucas, Verne, Wells, Bradbury, Clark, Asimov, and Herbert. My blood runs green (5 points for the first person who names what species that makes me). It is difficult for me to admit that there may not be extraterrestrial life, espically considering my upgbringing, but I have to keep an open mind, even if that open mind includes honest pecimism.

ratbastid

Are aliens abducting people? It's a perfectly valid question, the answer to which is "no".

Infinite_Loser

I have a theory I'd like to share with everyone.

Technologically speaking, humans are the most advanced species in the universe by a few thousand years. The reason we haven't come into contact with other species from other planets is because they haven't yet discovered space travel (In other words, they're all underdeveloped when compared to Earth). Therefore, the only way we're going to discover life elsewhere in the universe is to:

1.) Actively seek out and make contact with such planets and its peoples or
2.) Wait for said species to evolve to the point where they branch out into space in hopes of making contact with extraterrestrial life.

__________________
I believe in equality; Everyone is equally inferior to me.

Willravel

I think WE have some evolving left to do before meeting a hypothetical extraterrestrial civilization. I'd be kinda embarassed at this point.

Ustwo

I've seen life, but I've not met this god fellow as far as I can tell.

I'd put the odds of extra terrestrial life being higher than anything religious.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Willravel

I was referring specifically to extra terrestrial life in comparison to God. I'm fully aware that life exists on Earth. While one might be more likely that the other, I suppose, they do represent something similar in my mind: they both teach us about our potential, and they both take on a mythic presence.

balderdash111

Will, we're saying the same thing here. The Drake equation makes certain assumptions about the conditions for life which may not be valid. To me, though, that increases the odds of there being life elsewhere. Like most, I don't have any idea whether there actually are any ETs, but the odds seem pretty good that there are/were/will be, somewhere, sometime.

It's as good a theory as any, but seems unlikely to me as a simple matter of statistics.

If, over the lifetime of the universe, there are more than handful of intelligent species (including us, at least by our own standards), we can plot their existince - or at least their creation - over time on a simple x-y graph.

Let's make X (the bottom line) a measure of time from the beginning to the end of the universe, going from left to right (*EDIT: whoops - mixed those up the first time*).

Let's make Y (the line going up on the left hand side) a measure of the number of intelligent civilizations created in any given year.

Once you plot out all the data (of course, we have no data yet, but work with me here), I would expect one of two shapes to emerge:

1) A line moving up from left to right - indicating that as the universe ages, more and more civilizations emerge until the end of time.

2) A classic bell curve (low on the left, curves up to a peak in the middle, then curves back down to nothing on the right) - indicating that as the universe ages, more and more civilizations emerge until something happens that inhibits new civilizations from forming. (I guess that would not be a classic bell curve, as the right hand side may not be symmetrical with the left, but you get the idea)

In either case, it seems very unlikely that human civilization shows up at the very beginning (at the far left of the graph), rather than somewhere in the middle. It's possible, of course (someone has to be first, just like someone has to win a raffle) but the odds seem very low.

__________________
A little silliness now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -- Willy Wonka

Willravel

We're looking at the same data and coming up with two slightly different conclusions. Where you say "there might be", I say "there might not be". Your glass is half full. Optimism is a good thing to have.

RonRyan85

While most replies to my questions were "NO I do not
think SPACE ALIENS exist" or are they taking people" and a
few guys tried to give funny answers ...you people are
not siding with Most Americans, according to the following
research report :


National UFO Reporting Center Special Feature
NPR Interview with Madeleine Brand concerning Alien Abductions



NUFORC Home Page




-----------------------------------------------------------------



The following is the partial text of an interview, conducted by Madeleine Brand, hostess of National Public Radio’s “Day to Day” program, of Susan Clancy, psychologist at Harvard University, and author of “Abducted: How People Come to Believe that They were Kidnapped by Aliens.” The interview was first broadcast over NPR stations on November 9, 2005.



This interview does NOT represent the opinions of the National UFO Reporting Center.

"Despite any credible scientific evidence, most Americans believe
that space aliens have visited this planet and some of them
believe that they were actually abducted by aliens."

balderdash111

And?

Most americans think Sadaam Hussein had something to do with 9/11 (or at least that used to be true - I'm not sure anymore), that doesn't make it true.

(Of course, I also have no idea if her data is correct, but I've heard similar survey results before so will give her the benefit of the doubt. The lowest figure I've heard is still in the 40% range)

I don't think I see your point here....

__________________
A little silliness now and then is cherished by the wisest men. -- Willy Wonka

Willravel

So studies done by the National UFO Reporting Center declair that most Americans believe that space aliens have visited this planet? That's like reading "Bush wins third election, voted sexiest man alive!" on the GOP website. Consider the source. Now if the BBC came out with a study or something, I might be more inclined to believe that.

Getting back to the OP: aliens might exist, but crazy people definately exist.

kurtisj

i would highly doubt that there are beings from another universe coming to earth and blah blah blah. Fact of the matter is that through the information we have, there is no other planet than our humble earth capable of supporting life in our solar system. The nearest star to our solar system is about 4 light years away. So assuming this star is even supporting a life bearing planet, the beings their would have to travel an 8 year round trip, also assuming that they can possibly travel at light speed. I would guess the government are testing their own equipment and they keep it secret because if they let the United States public know, the whole world would know in about 5 minutes.

__________________
Marvin the Mountie Always Gets His Kurtisj.

Ustwo

This statement is not quite true, thermal vents changed everything. We can not rely on crude surface observations to determine if there is life.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

kurtisj

could you elaborate a little more about the thermal vents? what planet(s) would this open up the possibility for?

__________________
Marvin the Mountie Always Gets His Kurtisj.

Willravel

I would say that kurtisj's statement is true as of right this minute. No one has proven life exists on other planets, asteroids, other heavenly bodies, or in the vaccume of space. Until we find an amino acid or protien (or talking monkeys....wait....it was Earth!!!) out there, we simply don't know.

Ustwo

We have found amino acids in meteorites.

Guess I just changed your view of the cosmos eh?

On a side note I didn't get into the concept that microbes live FAR below the earths surface, but I figure thermal vents are far more spectacular if no more valid an example.

If you wish to argue there is no other life until you see it, so be it, but I think the odds of there not being like conditions out there that match some habitat that life is found on earth is so small as to not needing to be considered.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.

Mojo_PeiPei

I think this discussion is stiffled by our limited knowledge. The problem is that for all intents and purposes we have existed as a technical civilization for a mere century give or take. On top of that by classifications of civilizations, we exist as a type 0, we cannot harness our owns planet resources efficently, space travel is pathetic in our own solar system, let alone galaxy. Anything we say is effectivly moot, theory which holds true by reason is impractical. If our current mold of math and science withholds, space travel is impractical, if not impossible for anything effective. But if we look at the various theories there are ways to skirt our boundaries. In theory tons of shit is possible, such as the warping of space as a means of travel; sure the nearest star is 4 light years away, but if you can manipulate space time there is no need to travel that distance, all you need do is cross the fold that was manipulated. Infusing all of those Einstein-Rosen bridges and worm holes is interesting. All I'm saying for us is this subject is by and large grey, seems to hold as a false-positive situation; we cannot really disprove anything, at the same time there is no way of proving anything. All of this comes at the behest of my limited research, research that comes from various books I have in my bathroom for toilet reading.

Anybody here read Chariot of the Gods? I thought the book put forth some interesting points and ideas, don't know how well the book has stood up to scrutiny in the last 30 years though.

__________________
To win a war you must serve no master but your ambition.

Ch'i

I think that there could be life out there. I also think that the odds of us ever running into each other are extreemly improbable.

Interesting about the amino acids on asteroids UsTwo, do you have a source for that so I can read more? (not meant as confrontational)

Sorry for the thread-jack RonRyan85; this is just alot more interesting

stevo

I have proof. Well proof enough for me that won't mean a squat to anyone else.

My father-in-law was friends with a man named Wayne Van Bibber back in the day. Van Bibber had many famous friends. Elvis was one, Jackie Gleason was another friend of Van Bibber's. Gleason had a relationship with Nixon (sorry, don't know the details). One day Nixon was thanking Gleason and told Jackie, "Ask me anything, just one question, I'll give you an answer." Gleason asked, "I want to know about the space aliens." Nixon nodded, "Yep, they're real."

__________________
"If I am such a genius why am I drunk, lost in the desert, with a bullet in my ass?" -Otto Mannkusser

Willravel

Was Nixon recording the conversation?


They could be real, but as Mojo said above, we really can't know yet because of limited information.

tecoyah

Chances are, its out there....probablity points towards this. Chances of a multibillion year timeframe allowing any two of these civilizations to meet?....not so good. Chances that it just happens, to happen right now....uh....Not.

Ustwo

There are geo-thermal vents deep in the oceans which release hot water and chemicals from the earth. An entire ecosystem has been found living off these vents under extreme heat and pressure. In what should be a lifeless area, unable to get energy from the sun, it was discovered that that sun was not needed for complex biology to survive. Bacteria live off the chemical energy, and the food chain goes up from there.

There has also been life found in areas with hydrocarbon concentrations, and worms that live on methane hydrate.

Life is VERY persistent. Its foolish to assume that somewhere out there, even in our own solar system, there are not conditions that are like one of the earths many habitats. There may not be life, but the conditions which favor it, even if the conditions don't favor us, are going to be there.

There is also proof that once the world was completely covered with ice, yet life persisted and continued to evolve. These conditions are believed to be found on Jupiters moon Europa, which is ice covered and shows signs of liquid water underneath. Many put the best chance for life outside of the earth in this possible ocean, though I think they underestimate the potential of other environments.

Either way it will be a long long time before we know, any probes are just speculation, plus the probes themselves would need to be able to pierce the ice, not an easy task to make a lander for.

__________________
Agents of the enemies who hold office in our own government, who attempt to eliminate our "freedoms" and our "right to know" are posting among us, I fear.....on this very forum. - host

Obama - Know a Man by the friends he keeps.