Genesis, why did they go pop? - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Wyodiver33 · 10-02-2005, 07:05 AM

Hi all. I just listened to a few Genesis songs from the early 80's. Abacab, as an example. Why did they pussifie their music after that? I understand that Peter Gabriel left the group and Phil Collins took over lead vocals, but damn, it was still a good band. At some point they totaly sold out. Fucking waste of talent.

Derwood · 10-02-2005, 08:41 AM

they wanted to lay the groundwork for Goo Goo Dolls, Sugar Ray and Liz Phair...

ratbastid · 10-02-2005, 12:43 PM

You're absolutely right. They should have left Phil on drums.

Chicago was the same way. Kick ass stuff until Peter Fucking Cetera came along.

Charlatan · 10-02-2005, 01:26 PM

You have your time line a little mixed up.

Phil was already on vocals by the time they did Abacab... I think that was his fifth album (Gabriel's last album with Genesis was The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and they did A Trick of the Tail, Wind and the Wuthering, And Then there Were Three and Duke after that and before Abacab).

Duke and Abacab are a couple of their best albums post Peter Gabriel. They just went in different direction and I don't think it can all be blamed on Collins. Face Value was an awesome solo album by Collins...

Honestly, I think they just grew up and got interested in different things.

quadro2000 · 10-03-2005, 09:36 AM

Thank you, Charlatan, for a bit of insight. Let's clear some stuff up here.

Genesis started as a prog-rock outfit, and gradually became a pop group. The blame surely cannot be placed on Phil Collins. Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks were equal parts of Genesis during this transition - Phil tends to get all the focus because he was the lead singer.

While I appreciate your technical term "pussifie," I think one would say it's a matter of opinion. I appreciate post 1980-Genesis for what it is, and I don't compare it to their earlier output. They went on to something different.

As for "selling out," I HATE it when people use that term. What does it mean, exactly? They went in a different direction and it happened to catch. So how did they sell out? Unless you can prove to me that they purposely went in that direction because a) their record company wanted them to, or b) they did it purely so they could sell more records.

And Ratbastid...I'm surprised at your lack of research. Peter Cetera was a founding member of Chicago back in 1967 AND sang lead on a lot of their earlier, more rocking songs like "25 or 6 to 4." Also, Chicago was doing more light-hearted fare since the mid-70s, like "Baby What A Big Surprise," "Saturday In The Park" and "If You Leave Me Now." Again, they went in a different direction in the 1980s...but that has more to do with a few members of the band either dying or leaving, and adding David Foster as contributing writer and producer. And some of Chicago's biggest "pop" hits ("Look Away," "What Kind of Man Would I Be") were recorded after Cetera left the band.

I'm just saying.

Charlatan · 10-03-2005, 09:52 AM

Besides... Genesis didn't sell out... they sold England by the Pound... :P

quadro2000 · 10-03-2005, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

Besides... Genesis didn't sell out... they sold England by the Pound... :P

...which, btw, is one of my favorite Genesis albums. I love "Firth of Fifth." But I also love "That's All."

BTW, I didn't intend for my message to come out as harsh as it did. But I hate the term "selling out" when it doesn't appear to be accurate.

I was harsh on Ratbastid too, but that's because I just loooove Peter Cetera.

Charlatan · 10-03-2005, 10:05 AM

My favourite Genesis album is probably Duke... can't say I like Chicago all that much... not that that prevents their songs from permeating my consciousness.

ratbastid · 10-03-2005, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by quadro2000

I was harsh on Ratbastid too, but that's because I just loooove Peter Cetera.

No comment. But I still love you!

pan6467 · 10-03-2005, 12:10 PM

There was a behind the scenes or something in that order about Genesis and 3 things pop out:

1) Peter Gabriel was a complete lunatic and total controlling ass

2) Phil Collins did not want vocals

3) Mike and Tony have final say over every song.

Really, quite interesting the show, I highly recommend it.

trickyy · 10-03-2005, 03:37 PM

i never liked their early stuff. too arty.

had to do it.

Craven Morehead · 10-03-2005, 07:04 PM

As mentioned, it wasn't Peter Cetera joining Chicago that changed their sound, he was there from the beginning. It was the loss of lead guitarist Terry Kath that pussified the group. The first few albums were full of gritty earthy blues oriented rock. Like South California Purples. Chicago becam a pop band in its later years. Just like Genesis did after Steve Hackett and Peter Gabriel left.

Val_1 · 10-04-2005, 05:59 PM

And another thing ... (he says jokingly) progressive rock was going out of vogue at the time. It wasn't just Genesis that was heading in more of a pop direction. I love prog rock, but also appreciate pop as well. Well played, well written pop (latter day Genesis in a nut shell) is just as enjoyable as well played prog. The Lamb is probably my favorite Genesis album, followed by "Genesis" from "83. I am glad Gabriel left the group, his solo stuff is just too good. Nice to know there's some others around with a knowledge of early Genesis. Cool.

Craven Morehead · 10-04-2005, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Val_1

And another thing ... (he says jokingly) progressive rock was going out of vogue at the time.

great point

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 04:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Val_1

progressive rock was going out of vogue at the time.

I was thinking the same thing on the way into work this morning...

I also agree about Peter Gabriel's solo work. I don't think I would like a world where he never had a solo career.

Daoust · 10-05-2005, 05:39 AM

Edit. I thought you were bashing him.

I hate his stuff. Absolutely hate it.

Charlatan · 10-05-2005, 06:06 AM

You hate Peter Gabriel? Wow.

Shock the Monkey, Don't Give Up, San Jacinto, Shanking the Tree, Solsbury Hill, Sledgehammer, Biko, Red Rain, Games Without Frontiers, I Don't Remember, Blood of Eden, Lay Your Hands on Me...

All just amazing songs... and that's just off the top of my head. Chacun son gout...

Val_1 · 10-05-2005, 05:43 PM

So, Charlatan, exactly how does one go about "Shanking" a tree :-) . I know it's a typo, but it made me laugh. BTW, excellent choice of songs. Definitely some of Gabriels best. I've really been getting into "Don't Give Up" lately. Excellent piece of music.

Charlatan · 10-06-2005, 05:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Val_1

So, Charlatan, exactly how does one go about "Shanking" a tree :-) .

It's from Peter Gabriel's lesser known, "Music for Prison".

Val_1 · 11-12-2005, 01:28 PM

Hey did anyone see this?

Phil Collins:

Quote:

"Collins, 54, said he is "open" to the idea of drumming and letting Peter Gabriel take over vocal duties if the original line-up were to reform."link

Then

Peter Gabriel:

Quote:

"The odds [of a Genesis reunion] are better now than before. We're going to have the conversation." link

Wow!

Leto · 11-21-2005, 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlatan

You hate Peter Gabriel? Wow.

Shock the Monkey, Don't Give Up, San Jacinto, Shanking the Tree, Solsbury Hill, Sledgehammer, Biko, Red Rain, Games Without Frontiers, I Don't Remember, Blood of Eden, Lay Your Hands on Me...

All just amazing songs... and that's just off the top of my head. Chacun son gout...

Yes, I was thinking that myself (that prog rock went out of style at that point) while my son was asking me who did 'Roundabout' as we were listening to it on the radio last night. This would explane the slow demise of Focus (note to self, check for a Focus thread...)

I really loved Gabriel's solo effort, with the noted exceptions of his harsher sounding songs such as Shock the Monkey, Sledgehammer (ugggh hated it) but really loved Salsbury Hill, Jeux Sans Frontieres, I Don't Remember, and really really like Biko.

As for Genesis, Lamb was my fav album followed by Duke...

10-02-2005, 07:05 AM	#1 (permalink)
Wyodiver33 Just here for the beer. Location: Ft. Lauderdale, Floriduh	Genesis, why did they go pop? Hi all. I just listened to a few Genesis songs from the early 80's. Abacab, as an example. Why did they pussifie their music after that? I understand that Peter Gabriel left the group and Phil Collins took over lead vocals, but damn, it was still a good band. At some point they totaly sold out. Fucking waste of talent. __________________ I like stuff.

10-02-2005, 08:41 AM	#2 (permalink)
Derwood Who You Crappin? Location: Everywhere and Nowhere	they wanted to lay the groundwork for Goo Goo Dolls, Sugar Ray and Liz Phair... __________________ "You can't shoot a country until it becomes a democracy." - Willravel

10-02-2005, 01:26 PM	#4 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	You have your time line a little mixed up. Phil was already on vocals by the time they did Abacab... I think that was his fifth album (Gabriel's last album with Genesis was The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway and they did A Trick of the Tail, Wind and the Wuthering, And Then there Were Three and Duke after that and before Abacab). Duke and Abacab are a couple of their best albums post Peter Gabriel. They just went in different direction and I don't think it can all be blamed on Collins. Face Value was an awesome solo album by Collins... Honestly, I think they just grew up and got interested in different things. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke Last edited by Charlatan; 10-03-2005 at 06:00 PM.. Reason: discography edit

10-03-2005, 09:36 AM	#5 (permalink)
quadro2000 All Possibility, Made Of Custard Location: New York, NY	Thank you, Charlatan, for a bit of insight. Let's clear some stuff up here. Genesis started as a prog-rock outfit, and gradually became a pop group. The blame surely cannot be placed on Phil Collins. Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks were equal parts of Genesis during this transition - Phil tends to get all the focus because he was the lead singer. While I appreciate your technical term "pussifie," I think one would say it's a matter of opinion. I appreciate post 1980-Genesis for what it is, and I don't compare it to their earlier output. They went on to something different. As for "selling out," I HATE it when people use that term. What does it mean, exactly? They went in a different direction and it happened to catch. So how did they sell out? Unless you can prove to me that they purposely went in that direction because a) their record company wanted them to, or b) they did it purely so they could sell more records. And Ratbastid...I'm surprised at your lack of research. Peter Cetera was a founding member of Chicago back in 1967 AND sang lead on a lot of their earlier, more rocking songs like "25 or 6 to 4." Also, Chicago was doing more light-hearted fare since the mid-70s, like "Baby What A Big Surprise," "Saturday In The Park" and "If You Leave Me Now." Again, they went in a different direction in the 1980s...but that has more to do with a few members of the band either dying or leaving, and adding David Foster as contributing writer and producer. And some of Chicago's biggest "pop" hits ("Look Away," "What Kind of Man Would I Be") were recorded after Cetera left the band. I'm just saying. __________________ You have to laugh at yourself...because you'd cry your eyes out if you didn't. - Emily Saliers

10-03-2005, 09:52 AM	#6 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	Besides... Genesis didn't sell out... they sold England by the Pound... :P __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-02-2005, 12:43 PM	#3 (permalink)
ratbastid Darth Papa Location: Yonder	You're absolutely right. They should have left Phil on drums. Chicago was the same way. Kick ass stuff until Peter Fucking Cetera came along.

10-03-2005, 10:05 AM	#8 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	My favourite Genesis album is probably Duke... can't say I like Chicago all that much... not that that prevents their songs from permeating my consciousness. __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-03-2005, 12:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
pan6467 Lennonite Priest Location: Mansfield, Ohio USA	There was a behind the scenes or something in that order about Genesis and 3 things pop out: 1) Peter Gabriel was a complete lunatic and total controlling ass 2) Phil Collins did not want vocals 3) Mike and Tony have final say over every song. Really, quite interesting the show, I highly recommend it. __________________ I just love people who use the excuse "I use/do this because I LOVE the feeling/joy/happiness it brings me" and expect you to be ok with that as you watch them destroy their life blindly following. My response is, "I like to put forks in an eletrical socket, just LOVE that feeling, can't ever get enough of it, so will you let me put this copper fork in that electric socket?"

10-03-2005, 03:37 PM	#11 (permalink)
trickyy ►	i never liked their early stuff. too arty. had to do it.

10-03-2005, 07:04 PM	#12 (permalink)
Craven Morehead Custom User Title	As mentioned, it wasn't Peter Cetera joining Chicago that changed their sound, he was there from the beginning. It was the loss of lead guitarist Terry Kath that pussified the group. The first few albums were full of gritty earthy blues oriented rock. Like South California Purples. Chicago becam a pop band in its later years. Just like Genesis did after Steve Hackett and Peter Gabriel left.

10-04-2005, 05:59 PM	#13 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	And another thing ... (he says jokingly) progressive rock was going out of vogue at the time. It wasn't just Genesis that was heading in more of a pop direction. I love prog rock, but also appreciate pop as well. Well played, well written pop (latter day Genesis in a nut shell) is just as enjoyable as well played prog. The Lamb is probably my favorite Genesis album, followed by "Genesis" from "83. I am glad Gabriel left the group, his solo stuff is just too good. Nice to know there's some others around with a knowledge of early Genesis. Cool. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra

10-05-2005, 05:39 AM	#16 (permalink)
Daoust "I'm sorry. What was the question?" Location: Paradise Regained	Edit. I thought you were bashing him. I hate his stuff. Absolutely hate it. __________________ I have faith in a few things - divinity and grace But even when I'm on my knees I know the devil preys

10-05-2005, 06:06 AM	#17 (permalink)
Charlatan Getting it. Super Moderator Location: Lion City	You hate Peter Gabriel? Wow. Shock the Monkey, Don't Give Up, San Jacinto, Shanking the Tree, Solsbury Hill, Sledgehammer, Biko, Red Rain, Games Without Frontiers, I Don't Remember, Blood of Eden, Lay Your Hands on Me... All just amazing songs... and that's just off the top of my head. Chacun son gout... __________________ "My hands are on fire. Hands are on fire. Ain't got no more time for all you charlatans and liars." - Old Man Luedecke

10-05-2005, 05:43 PM	#18 (permalink)
Val_1 Addict Location: In a State of Denial	So, Charlatan, exactly how does one go about "Shanking" a tree :-) . I know it's a typo, but it made me laugh. BTW, excellent choice of songs. Definitely some of Gabriels best. I've really been getting into "Don't Give Up" lately. Excellent piece of music. __________________ I feel sorry for people who don't drink. When they wake up in the morning, that's as good as they're going to feel all day. -Frank Sinatra