Val_1

When I was younger (late teens, early 20's) Zep was my all time favorite band. Studio work, live recordings. I loved it all. I love the guitar work, the compositions, Plants soaring vocals. Nowadays, not so much. I rarely listen to them. I did pick up the live DVD that came out last year. Some of it still impresses me, but Page;s endless improvising leaves me cold. The parts that impress me the most about Zeppelin now (after I've been playing music myself for a few years) is Bonzo's fantastic drumming, Jones's bass playing, and the arrangements. I saw JPJ when he opened up for King Crimson a couple of years ago and he impressed the hell out of me. Fantastic musician. He and Bonzo really formed the core of Zep as far as I'm concerned. Zep wouldn't have been the same without them.

I'd have to say my favorite musician/group now is Peter Gabriel (both solo and early Genesis).

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Ace_O_Spades

kinda hard for a reunion with the key part of the band dead and buried

poor bonzo

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Stompy

I think a reunion would be good with someone like his son, Jason. It'd be acceptable then.. but to replace him w/ a random whoever, nah.

The Doors are doing this crap with the "Doors of the 21st Century" with goddamn Ian Astbury (singer for The Cult) taking the place of Morrison. What a fuckin joke..

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sailor

Agreed. Unfortunately, I dont think itll ever happen

But yeah, definitely my favorite band.

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tspikes51

Zep is like Hendrix or the Stones: good, but not as great or influential as people make them out to be. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Led Zeppelin, but they definately aren't the best band ever (nor is anybody for that matter). True, they were innovative a little bit, but saying Page is the best guitarist ever is going a bit to far. Same with Hendrix. I really just don't get how he is a "great." He didn't have outstanding skill like Vaughan or Beck, expression like Clapton, nor songwriting capabilities like Satriani.

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OFKU0

Sorry tspikes51, but that made me laugh out loud. If you think Satriani even comes close to the songwriting accomplishments of Page, you really need a hearing test and a history lesson.

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tspikes51

You are right there, I was thinking about Hendrix while I was writing that little bit. Page I can more compare to Curt Cobain (although Page is a MUCH better player than Cobain was): okay player, great songwriter.

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braindamage351

He isn't a Page level songwriter, but Satriani is the most innovative soloer of all time. He invented so many techniques on Surfing with the Alien. Steve Vai would probably be in some shitty band if it wasn't for him.

Tusko

"Zep is like Hendrix or the Stones: good, but not as great or influential as people make them out to be. Don't get me wrong, I enjoy Led Zeppelin, but they definately aren't the best band ever (nor is anybody for that matter). True, they were innovative a little bit, but saying Page is the best guitarist ever is going a bit to far. Same with Hendrix. I really just don't get how he is a "great." He didn't have outstanding skill like Vaughan or Beck, expression like Clapton, nor songwriting capabilities like Satriani."

i disagree with everything said in this paragraph.


Zeppelin were not only one of the most influential bands ever, they deserve every ounce of respect thrown at them.

Jimmy Page is single handedly responsible for the sound that continued on into rock and roll for 30 years, through not JUST his guitar playing. He was a master in the studio and pioneered many techniques for recording, everyone one of which is seen as small potatoes now.

Similarly, as far as skill, when he was on the ball (and off the blow/crank/sour mash) his skill surpassed his friend Jeff Beck. Hands down. And he wipes the floor with Clapton. Since I've Been Loving You/Rain Song blows away any "tears in heaven".

and SRV? Well, that was decades later, so, no comparison.


And as for satch, creativity? Long lasting influence? Yes, he is definately influential to the world of shred, but that's pretty much it. Very very few people have ever heard of Yngwie/Satch/Vai/Stump/Angelo etc outside of "guitar player" circles.


and hendrix, well, let's not get into hendrix. That would deserve a whole nother thread about his skill.

tspikes51

Counter-responses:

1st paragraph: You're entitled to your opinion, but what recording techniques did Page invent??? Weren't there other members of Zep???

2nd p: Have you seen any live Beck??? Obviously not, especially the Beck/BB King special. You need an education on non-radio Clapton. Listen to Me and Mr. Johnson, From the Cradle, all of Unplugged, all of his stuff with Cream, Pilgrim, and One More Car, One More Rider.

3rd p: Wrong. His releases can be traced back to '73.

4th: Surfing With the Alien is cert. Platinum.

5th: Nope. He sucks.

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Tusko

"1st paragraph: You're entitled to your opinion, but what recording techniques did Page invent??? Weren't there other members of Zep???"

Multi tracking, ambient micing, modern drum micing, tape echo/delay, non tape echo. You name it.

"2nd p: Have you seen any live Beck??? Obviously not, especially the Beck/BB King special. "

I have, and i own nearly every Beck album pre 1990.

"You need an education on non-radio Clapton. Listen to Me and Mr. Johnson, From the Cradle, all of Unplugged, all of his stuff with Cream, Pilgrim, and One More Car, One More Rider."

Same goes for clapton. Anything Clapton did, Pagey could do. Of course, Clapton's best work being a note-for-note copy of Freddie King's Hideaway.

"3rd p: Wrong. His releases can be traced back to '73."

And Page's can be traced to well before 66. So what? SRV was nowhere near his prime until Texas Flood/Weather or his performance on ACL. His speed and technicality surpasses Page's, but his writing does not. I have yet to hear anything with the diversity of Jimmy page. It's like comparing Yngwie to B.B. King.

"4th: Surfing With the Alien is cert. Platinum."

And how many people have heard of surfing with the alien? The most well none "shred" guy would probably be Yngwie, or Vai, because of his appearance in Crossroads.

"5th: Nope. He sucks."

Well, i can see why you have gone wrong in those other replies, you obviously have a huge lapse in judgement.

tspikes51

I just had a revelation: music sucked, in general, when Zep made their music, save maybe Molly Hatchet. I guess that's why they are so well-known and "influential." I just think they're overrated.

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Tusko

haha, that made me rofl... you're kidding right?

tspikes51

Okay. Here's the last shot I'm gonna take. Zeppelin was good. I've already said that. They wrote good songs, they were unique, and they had an above average skill level; but then again there are plenty of other bands that possess those same qualities. To say that Led Zeppelin was better than any other rock band ever is simply an overstatement. You said that Page invented recording techniques. Actually, I believe (having been briefly involved with studio recording myself) that almost all recording artists have almost nothing to do with running studio equipment. They did stand out in a time where rock music in general was, in my opinion, lackluster (mid-60s to early-70s).

There is one thing that I would like to point out about that is just plain wrong: How dare you say that nobody has had the diversity of Page (although I agree he is diverse), or even the success of Page at doing different stuff??? Page ONLY played rock, no matter how different his songs sounded. Then you have people like (I hate to say it again, but its true) Clapton have shown a mastery of a number of styles (ska, rock, blues, emo, country, reggae, and gospel to list a few). Garth Brooks (even though you've probably never listened to him) has mastered both rock and country. Beck (not Jeff) has mastered both rap and rock. Smash Mouth mastered ska, grunge, and pop. Pink Floyd was diverse within rock (even though I don't like them much). Ray Charles did pop, rock 'n' roll, and pop. Just because Page played a double neck, and Bonzo has a timpani and gong on his set doesn't mean that they were more diverse than anybody ever. Since you don't seem to listen to any music from the 90s on, you obviously need a lesson on the extremely short history of recording art.

By the way, Johan Sebastian Bach invented metal more than Zep did (listen to any of his fugues if you don't believe me). It just took the invention of compression and the discovery of excess gain to have it catch on, and in fact, you can hear a lot of Bach in Zeppelin's music.

*edit

Let's stop fighting. That's my last shot, you take yours, and let us hear no more about it. I said they were good, I just refuse to say that they were the best anything ever. Let's just stop it.

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Tusko

"Actually, I believe (having been briefly involved with studio recording myself) that almost all recording artists have almost nothing to do with running studio equipment. They did stand out in a time where rock music in general was, in my opinion, lackluster (mid-60s to early-70s)."


but jimmy page did. he took care of the majority of the mastering and recording.

the immense drum tone on When The Levee Breaks? Jimmy's idea

the wailing echo of You Shook Me, Jimbo's idea.

Pretty much the entire "Presence Album" - page.


"Page ONLY played rock"

then you clearly havent heard enough zeppelin.


You Shook me, the rain song, bron yr aur, dancing days, no quarter, gallow's pole, kashmir, (playing the Gizmotron) on in the evening, white summer, the wah wah song, d'yer mak'er. These are all entirely different styles.

He did not come from blues roots, in fact, NONE of the band came from blues roots, like Clapton. Plant was mostly an R&B guy, Page a folk guy, JPJ a jazz-pop guy and Bonzo, well, no one knows where he came from.


and then you go on to say that Beck (who rocks) and Smash Mouth "mastered" some styles?

Then in that case; Dredg, Pearl Jam, Talib Kwali, Sage Francis, Mos Allison, The Haunted, Primus,Queens of the Stone Age, Fantomas, Les Savy Fav and a littany of other artists are all equally as credible. Don't put a skinny kid with a guitar and some turntables, and a bunch of post-grunge sellouts in that category.




"Since you don't seem to listen to any music from the 90s on, you obviously need a lesson on the extremely short history of recording art."


omg. please, go away. your ignorance is stiffling.


"By the way, Johan Sebastian Bach invented metal more than Zep did (listen to any of his fugues if you don't believe me). It just took the invention of compression and the discovery of excess gain to have it catch on, and in fact, you can hear a lot of Bach in Zeppelin's music."

i dunno. i'd hand that credit over to Wagner. Bach was pretty heavy, but Wagner kicks you in the nuts.

tspikes51

With Bach I was referring to his heavy use of the minor pentatonic scales and his subsequent pretty much inventing of the metal solo, which, if you know much about theory, together with some dorians, m6 and a couple other scales, make up almost all metal scales..

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HeLLVieW96

even if your not a fan of them, you must give them credit for what they made and their musical talent.
theyre not my cup of tea. but they still rock at what they did.

Stompy

tspikes51, Led Zeppelin is not overrated.

There's just no way. Their style is exponentially beyond just "rock".. the foundation of their music is based on SO many different styles of music, it's not even funny.

There aren't very many artists that have used as much diversity in their music as Zeppelin. Well, no, some do, but they aren't very good at it. They aren't able to take each individual style and morph it into something unique and original. It's usually a blend of "here's a Zulu Tribal beat on top of some 80's German industrial". It's not a "I am well knowledgable and trained in the foundations of folk/blues/r&b/etc.. and I wanna take these and make it into a style that has never before been heard."

To prove the point, they're still relevant today. Their status is legendary and their place (and importance) in music history is equally as legendary... based on that alone, they can't be overrated. I said this in another thread, but you can personally dislike them all you want, but to say they're overrated is a gross misjudgement on your part.

I guarantee you that every modern band you enjoy has been influenced by Zeppelin in some way.

You got it all wrong though... you can't "master" music. Style exist to simply try and categorize the music that people create to express what they need to create. Some create truly unique and original music while others take what has already been established and simply build upon that. You can be good and proficient at that style, yes, but master? Not so much.

Garth Brooks (?) hasn't (and isn't) proficient in anything rock. I'm not a fan of country at all, so I won't comment beyond that. Beck mastering rap and rock? Eh... not really. He's awesome, yes, but he's not ROCK and most certainly isn't RAP. He's experimental. Smash Mouth? Hahaha... did you throw that in there for laughs? They haven't really mastered anything except how to sell well in the bubble-gum pop world. A prime example of a band that wont' be remembered 20 years from now

The music you hear today was essentially created by Zeppelin (amongst others, like Sabbath and the Beatles). You simply can't discredit that as "overrated".

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tspikes51

Dude, you quite obviously haven't listened to Smash Mouth's first album, Fush Yu Mang, which was released towards the end of the grunge movement. Not pop at all.

Garth Brooks, being more knowledgable on his music than most people on the board, has shown true knowledge of rock and country music and has blended them together to create his own unique style, which is why he is the best-selling solo artist in recording history. Statistic alone: according to the RIAA, who gives out gold/platinum certifications, Garth Brooks had 99 gold/platinum albums/singles, and Led Zeppelin has had 81. Zep had 13 Diamond albums/singles (sell over 10 million copies), Brooks has 14. That has to mean something. He is truly a bona-fide artist.

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balderdash111

{threadjack}
Garth Brooks is very popular, yes, but comparing RIAA sales records of bands in the 90s and 00s to bands in the 60s and 70s just isn't proper. It's also not necessarily an indicator of superior talent

Sales of current records are generally much higher than they were in the 60s and 70s, and, of course, there is a larger population making the purchases. The fact is that Brooks has a massive marketing arm behind him that dwarfs the efforts in Zeppelin's day (yes, Zeppelin had marketing, and lots of it, but not on this scale.)

Brooks also writes more easily accessible music (not a flaw, IMO), so he gets a bigger mass appeal than other bands, including Zeppelin.

Anyway, my point is that Brooks having more gold/platinum records is a huge accomplishment of course, but doesn't actually prove anything germane to this thread.
{/threadjack}

And IMO, Garth Brooks is not rock. He's country with more of a rock feel, but he's not rock (unless you count the Chris Gaines fiasco)

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tspikes51

Brooks actually has influenced my, and modern country's music a lot more than Zeppelin has, even though I started listening to Zep before Garth. What I am trying to say, and have been trying to say is that to say that Led Zeppelin is the most influential band ever is an overstatement.

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OFKU0

Having had something to do with the recording industry and as someone knowledgeable of music, my only comment is that recording industry stats regarding album sales is an estimation. In other words, no one really knows exactly how many albums are sold mainly because it is impossible to track. Record companies often inflate sales to promote more sales. Retailers inflate/advertise to bring in people. Magazines pump the hottest thing to sell magazines and sometimes their estimates are off. You want to really see how many records are sold? Talk to the artists, they'll tell you just by looking at financial statements.

One thing of note also. Album sales also include singles. Dan Hill who wrote, "Sometimes when we Touch" was a huge single that sold millions. The rest of the album,...nothing. The single sold, the album didn't. Garth Brooks released single after single after single which naturally is going to push up record sales. Led Zeppelin didn't release singles. If they had, for "Stairway" alone, they would have probably doubled their total sales.

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Jerron36

One of my all time favorite bands, and I would love to see them back together as well.

balderdash111

Ok, you just changed the debate, you realize that right? Nobody is saying Led Zeppelin had a greater influence on country music than Garth Brooks. What people are saying is that Zep had a huge influence on rock music. You may disagree (though you have an awfully "I'm smarter than you" attitude about it, which you may need to work on), but please try to argue the points that are actually in contention.

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Stompy

Hm, people tend to change that statistic for some reason. Best selling solo-artist in history? I've heard that about this person, that person... madonna, Britney, Usher, you name it, they've said, "They're the best selling artist".

Record sales don't mean anything in today's music industry. Tons of horrible artists that won't even be remembered 5 years from now who aren't even ... a fraction of a percent as influential as Zeppelin sell millions of records. 10 years ago you could've compared sales, but not so much these days. Your stats on Brooks' sales are WAY off.

Go ahead, compare Led Zeppelin's sales to Brooks any time (even though it's irrelevant) What's funny is, I see a few Zep CDs that have sold double diamond (20 million +) [nevermind, just one].

http://www.riaa.com/gp/database/default.asp

Sorry, I can't stop laughing at Smash Mouth. Nothing against you, I'm just still trying to figure out why they've been brough up as opposed to a more relevant and talented band such as Alice in Chains or even Nirvana. I have a VERY hard time believing that Smash Mouth will influence good bands in the future.

Brooks? Sure. I don't listen to country, but I'm certain Brooks will influence more people than, say, Billy Ray Cyrus.

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inharmony

Zeppelin without a doubt 'one' of the best bands ever. imho

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Harry Cox

Are you tryng to say that Garth Brooks has influenced more people than Zeppelin?! You're nucking futs. Led Zeppelin changed the face of rock music. They created music the likes of which had never been heard before. Brooks just churns out the same old country crap that makes true country legends like Johnny Cash puke.

merkerguitars

My fav led zep songs

Hot Dog
Whole Lotta Love
Hearbreaker
Fool in the rain
hey hey what can i do
the ocean
babe i'm gonna leave you

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dbc

I don't like reunions and they are one of my favorite bands. Probably my album is Led Zeppelin IV.

OFKU0

Was just clearing out some of my bookmarks and came across this site. Don't know if this was in the thread but has lots of stuff for the Zep fan here.

http://www.buckeye-web.com/

Almost forgot. For Plant fans, I believe he is starting his tour March 11 in Tulsa (?) then going on from there

Also Zep are getting a lifetime achievement award at the Grammy's if anyone is interested. Don't think they will play though and that's a shame.

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Harry Cox

Plant is playing a small venue here in Dallas on March 14th. I can't wait for that show.

Coppertop

Excellent choices. Kashmir is just so... well, you all know already.

Coppertop

And I cannot believe that Garth Brooks has been invoked in a Led Zep thread. Priceless.

Arroe

the smash mouth is even better....

god, smash mouth and zeppelin being compared, that's sad.

loonatic8her

I was too young to see the Original Zep... but I did see Page and Plant on tour... Mind you Zep was never my favorite band just one of my top 10 or so and I mean absolutely ZERO disrespect by that statement. I thought the Page/Plant concert was one of my top 5 concerts of all time... And yes they are one of the most influentual and important bands in the Rock genre.... long live the Gods of Heavy Metal!!

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The Loonatic

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Do you now miss them and the things they said?

Dbass

Before I begin, I would like to emphasize heavily that I adore Led Zeppelin, and I would stake my...I don't know what...here we go with the Devil's Advocate:
Firstly, I saw Plant opening for the Who in 2000 - his voice is shot. Very very far from the screaming golden god we all love. I would suggest that this is from his early singing habits, which were sort of uncontrolled. I love his voice in the early days but that kind of singing kills your voice, the muscles aren't really set up to take that strain.
A reunion therefore would probably not work out, and my concern would be that the performance Plant delivered on "Rock and Roll" and the Who show would be the one he delivered in the reunion.
Nextly, Page is an amazing guitarist. I as a guitarist bow to him, and I cannot even begin to pick apart his solos. But, I must say that his technique live is very very sloppy. His ideas are coherent and awesome, but there must be like 10% more solo in all those flubbed notes. On the other hand, his Bach style solos are immaculate and the same with the Arabic type solos in Black Mountain Side/White...something, and the live breakdown of Heartbreaker - so maybe sometimes his mind works faster than his fingers
Jones and Bonham - I have no complaints, the two are one of the most solid rhythm sections ever, seriously ever!!!
As far as Clapton, I was able to master his solos in the first 5 years of my playing. All of them, without tabs. That doesn't mean he sucks, but as I still can't do that with some Zep solos, I have to tip my hat to Page.
Also, Page is a lot less sloppy than Hendrix.
Songwriting wise, I think Zep songs are about the best I've heard. And the knowledge they had of other genres is astounding and very clear. That being said, I think they would have gone in an artistic direction we all dislike at some point - case in point Puff Daddy's "Come With Me".

thats all for me

skinnymofo

i must be the only one who enjoyed Puffys come with me.
i felt it was refreshing to add stuff to an old classic, although i tend to skip kashmir when i listen to their music as it never really goes anywhere for 8 minutes while a lot of the other longer pieces build up and take off

daidai

what about the rumors of some world tour with Page/plant John Paul Johnes and the son of bonham!??

georges

Page is a brilliant guitarist, but that doesn't necessarily constitute innovative - doing 5minute long solos at a live show gets boring for me. I would be inclined to say that Jimi Hendrix is much more innovative although (maybe) less technically proficient.
(I'm not saying that Led Zep are a bad band, I do like a bit to relax to, and have all of their albums etc, but I just would have to say I think Hendrix is more innovative)

Tusko

page was QUITE innovative. reading up on his recording and studio process shows you that.

one of the pioneers of mulit-tracking, and made many modern micing techniques.

as well as a very very diverse player...