Help a self taught seven year guitarist improve. - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

Phaenx · 06-15-2004, 06:16 PM

Hey kids,

By now you should have the gist of my intentions, but I'll go over it again and tell you a bit about myself.

I started playing guitar at the age of thirteen. I had a book my uncle gave me that showed me the basics (coords, tablature, etc) and a lot of time. I practiced with my book and built up finger strength, developed rhythm and soon began feeling comfortable with a guitar. For the next few years I would play a bit every night, improving slightly but not enough to be impressive.

And that's where I am. I have the finger strength and accuracy slower rythmic songs gives me but little else besides. I can play part of the classical lead from crossroads at a slow tempo, but it's only "put finger there, then there" kind of a thing. I don't understand what I'm doing so much as my fingers remember what I told them to after 800 attempts.

So what do you think? Should I get a video or a program or something? Get an instructor to show me arpeggios and scales and such (I don't know any)? Or is it just hours and hours of practice from here on out?

OFKU0 · 06-15-2004, 08:15 PM

Try to understand chords and chord progressions paying special attention to 3rds and 7ths.

Understand as much theory as possible ie,...modulation, substitute chords, note selection, alterations of chords, etc,..

First thought, learn the notes on your finger board. Then learn about triads. And on and on and on.

Try this for starters. More than enough..,..http://www.wholenote.com/

To bad your in Ohio. You'd learn with me teaching you.

redarrow · 06-15-2004, 08:23 PM

I would get a teacher.
Its so much easier when learning stuff.
Plus youve already been playing for years so he doesnt have to show you how to strum or what way you hold the guitar.

Phaenx · 06-16-2004, 04:37 PM

I had them once before. Even so I still say I'm self taught because the fucking wierdo would show up drunk or high or both and give me some tab of like pink floyd or poison and go somewhere else for half an hour.

That went well. He apparently only went to school for "the chicks." I reported him to the department of redundancy department later because he had already made that evident from the moment he stumbled into the little 8 ft^2 room.

noahfor · 06-16-2004, 09:19 PM

off topic but whatever, i took sax lessons for like a month and for the entire month there was a french fry underneath my chair, and there was nothing in the room except two chairs and the french fry.

miggity99 · 06-17-2004, 06:00 AM

Try learning classical guitar. I just recently took a classical guitar class and it's helped me out a lot with my playing. Plus I can read music now and play along with sheet music rather than just tabs.

OFKU0 · 06-17-2004, 07:41 AM

As per my first post, try and play what you hear in your head at the same time as playing the guitar. Start with single note lines, and sing them too so as to match the pitch.

As you progress try and play chordal progressions of what you hear. This will develop your individual style without getting into ruts or sounding like anyone else. Remember that theory is only a tool. Once you grasp theory, use it to suit you.

Some say you have to know the theory rules before you break them. Fair enough. But music is a creative outlet that the mind generates. To get to involved in theory will sound to prescribed. Learn it then use it to your advantage. Hope that helps.

roachboy · 06-17-2004, 08:48 AM

i agree in general with ofkuo
here's what i have figured out so far, in summary version:

1. whatever you do, do not take the claims made about theory seriously--learn it, but use it for your own purposes.

2. improvise. improvisation requires a full arsenal of techniques--i have never been sure about the mythology that everyone who makes structures hears them in their head before they play--it seems to me a way to transpose a notion that music has to be scored from paper to a psychological level--i have been playing piano for 30 years and rarely hear things that i might do away from the instrument--but i would not worry about it either way. most of the music that happens is a direct function of the immediate relation to the instrument--sitting in front of it, moving into a curious kind of mental space, etc....

3. i find that it is important to fool around with conventional voicings in order to open up space for thinking in terms of lines rather than in terms of riffs--it started with dropping the thirds, building chords out of fourths, then onto more dissonant intervals. straight chords force you into thinking in terms of riffs or scales. since there are thousands of players who are straightjacketed by thinking in these terms--particularly guitarists--why would you want to go down that road if you are at a place where it is still a choice (rather than a habit)?

4. copying stuff that you hear might be good for ear training, but why would you want to make imitation into the center of your relationship to your instrument?

5. listen listen listen. what you can imagine is a function of what you understand as possible.

6. co-ordination will come with practice, which requires more a relationship with the instrument that makes it seem as though your are learning how to talk with and through it in a different language than one where you have some idea of a right way to play that you fail to manage. the second route makes practice seem like drudgery.

OFKU0 · 06-17-2004, 07:20 PM

Quote:

[i]

5. listen listen listen. what you can imagine is a function of what you understand as possible.

[/B]

That is great advice. I've been a professional guitarist and teacher for 20 years and that statement hit the nail on the head.

The biggest problem I have encountered with people trying to learn to play an instrument, or even better those trying to make the leap from intermediate to advanced musician, is that they get bogged down in what they think is expected or how they should play or what level they should be at compared to others.

Miles Davis, John Coltrane, Jimi Hendrix, Lenny Breau, Johnny Cash etc,..they didn't worry about it. They did it. This is why they are legends, not otherwise.

Sun Tzu · 06-23-2004, 11:17 AM

If you learned how to read music early on I would recommend getting Julio Sagrera's first 2 classical guitar books. It will strengthen your reading and help you develop that area of playing.

My own personal experience: In junior high (way back when) I first heard Yngwie I became obsessed by that type of technique. Because I was so burnt on Rush, Zepplin, VH, etc all I listened to was that Neoclassical fusion. (Vinnie Moore, Tony Macalpine, Paul Gilbert- 2 of my still favorites Marty Friedman and Jason Becker) plus Al Dimeola and a few Jazz Fusion players. Anyway I practiced alternate picking, sweeps, and the fret hand hammer ons for about 5-6 hours a day. About 2 of that was spent using a steel string acoustic. To make a long story short; it eventually seemed like I was working out then playing music, so that "playing form the heart" may have suffered; but technically the results were amazing.

That's probably my own personal experience though. My overall advice is to develop you ear training (aural perception) and further develop your technical chops. I understand that to some that kind of playing sounds too mathematical but having that type of clean technique opens the pathways to multiple areas that may have not been developed otherwise.

Tusko · 07-09-2004, 11:33 AM

www.guitar.com

one of my stomping grounds. good resource. some VERY knowledgable people there.

brinkn1 · 07-12-2004, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by roachboy
i agree in general with ofkuo
here's what i have figured out so far, in summary version:

1. whatever you do, do not take the claims made about theory seriously--learn it, but use it for your own purposes.

2. improvise. improvisation requires a full arsenal of techniques--i have never been sure about the mythology that everyone who makes structures hears them in their head before they play--it seems to me a way to transpose a notion that music has to be scored from paper to a psychological level--i have been playing piano for 30 years and rarely hear things that i might do away from the instrument--but i would not worry about it either way. most of the music that happens is a direct function of the immediate relation to the instrument--sitting in front of it, moving into a curious kind of mental space, etc....

3. i find that it is important to fool around with conventional voicings in order to open up space for thinking in terms of lines rather than in terms of riffs--it started with dropping the thirds, building chords out of fourths, then onto more dissonant intervals. straight chords force you into thinking in terms of riffs or scales. since there are thousands of players who are straightjacketed by thinking in these terms--particularly guitarists--why would you want to go down that road if you are at a place where it is still a choice (rather than a habit)?

4. copying stuff that you hear might be good for ear training, but why would you want to make imitation into the center of your relationship to your instrument?

5. listen listen listen. what you can imagine is a function of what you understand as possible.

6. co-ordination will come with practice, which requires more a relationship with the instrument that makes it seem as though your are learning how to talk with and through it in a different language than one where you have some idea of a right way to play that you fail to manage. the second route makes practice seem like drudgery.

Spoken by a true musician. ESPECIALLY #4.

ForwardtoDeath · 07-14-2004, 04:03 PM

I've been playing guitar for a four or five years now and i definitely second everyones suggestions of learning music theory. While it may be boring at first, it will definitely increase your skills as a both a guitarist and a musician. It is also helpful if you are looking to play in a band, as it allows you to communicate better with people playing other instruments. Also, start writing your own music and work on songwriting. And finally, play music the way it sounds good to you, dont worry about what others think.

06-15-2004, 06:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	Help a self taught seven year guitarist improve. Hey kids, By now you should have the gist of my intentions, but I'll go over it again and tell you a bit about myself. I started playing guitar at the age of thirteen. I had a book my uncle gave me that showed me the basics (coords, tablature, etc) and a lot of time. I practiced with my book and built up finger strength, developed rhythm and soon began feeling comfortable with a guitar. For the next few years I would play a bit every night, improving slightly but not enough to be impressive. And that's where I am. I have the finger strength and accuracy slower rythmic songs gives me but little else besides. I can play part of the classical lead from crossroads at a slow tempo, but it's only "put finger there, then there" kind of a thing. I don't understand what I'm doing so much as my fingers remember what I told them to after 800 attempts. So what do you think? Should I get a video or a program or something? Get an instructor to show me arpeggios and scales and such (I don't know any)? Or is it just hours and hours of practice from here on out? __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

06-15-2004, 08:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	Try to understand chords and chord progressions paying special attention to 3rds and 7ths. Understand as much theory as possible ie,...modulation, substitute chords, note selection, alterations of chords, etc,.. First thought, learn the notes on your finger board. Then learn about triads. And on and on and on. Try this for starters. More than enough..,..http://www.wholenote.com/ To bad your in Ohio. You'd learn with me teaching you. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

06-16-2004, 04:37 PM	#4 (permalink)
Phaenx The Northern Ward Location: Columbus, Ohio	I had them once before. Even so I still say I'm self taught because the fucking wierdo would show up drunk or high or both and give me some tab of like pink floyd or poison and go somewhere else for half an hour. That went well. He apparently only went to school for "the chicks." I reported him to the department of redundancy department later because he had already made that evident from the moment he stumbled into the little 8 ft^2 room. __________________ "I went shopping last night at like 1am. The place was empty and this old woman just making polite conversation said to me, 'where is everyone??' I replied, 'In bed, same place you and I should be!' Took me ten minutes to figure out why she gave me a dirty look." --Some guy

06-17-2004, 06:00 AM	#6 (permalink)
miggity99 Tilted Location: Starkvegas	Try learning classical guitar. I just recently took a classical guitar class and it's helped me out a lot with my playing. Plus I can read music now and play along with sheet music rather than just tabs. __________________ Chemical Engineers do it with packed beds...

06-17-2004, 07:41 AM	#7 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	As per my first post, try and play what you hear in your head at the same time as playing the guitar. Start with single note lines, and sing them too so as to match the pitch. As you progress try and play chordal progressions of what you hear. This will develop your individual style without getting into ruts or sounding like anyone else. Remember that theory is only a tool. Once you grasp theory, use it to suit you. Some say you have to know the theory rules before you break them. Fair enough. But music is a creative outlet that the mind generates. To get to involved in theory will sound to prescribed. Learn it then use it to your advantage. Hope that helps. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

06-15-2004, 08:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
redarrow Banned Location: i gotta go	I would get a teacher. Its so much easier when learning stuff. Plus youve already been playing for years so he doesnt have to show you how to strum or what way you hold the guitar.

06-16-2004, 09:19 PM	#5 (permalink)
noahfor Addict	off topic but whatever, i took sax lessons for like a month and for the entire month there was a french fry underneath my chair, and there was nothing in the room except two chairs and the french fry.

06-17-2004, 08:48 AM	#8 (permalink)
roachboy Super Moderator Location: essex ma	i agree in general with ofkuo here's what i have figured out so far, in summary version: 1. whatever you do, do not take the claims made about theory seriously--learn it, but use it for your own purposes. 2. improvise. improvisation requires a full arsenal of techniques--i have never been sure about the mythology that everyone who makes structures hears them in their head before they play--it seems to me a way to transpose a notion that music has to be scored from paper to a psychological level--i have been playing piano for 30 years and rarely hear things that i might do away from the instrument--but i would not worry about it either way. most of the music that happens is a direct function of the immediate relation to the instrument--sitting in front of it, moving into a curious kind of mental space, etc.... 3. i find that it is important to fool around with conventional voicings in order to open up space for thinking in terms of lines rather than in terms of riffs--it started with dropping the thirds, building chords out of fourths, then onto more dissonant intervals. straight chords force you into thinking in terms of riffs or scales. since there are thousands of players who are straightjacketed by thinking in these terms--particularly guitarists--why would you want to go down that road if you are at a place where it is still a choice (rather than a habit)? 4. copying stuff that you hear might be good for ear training, but why would you want to make imitation into the center of your relationship to your instrument? 5. listen listen listen. what you can imagine is a function of what you understand as possible. 6. co-ordination will come with practice, which requires more a relationship with the instrument that makes it seem as though your are learning how to talk with and through it in a different language than one where you have some idea of a right way to play that you fail to manage. the second route makes practice seem like drudgery. __________________ a gramophone its corrugated trumpet silver handle spinning dog. such faithfulness it hear it make you sick. -kamau brathwaite

06-23-2004, 11:17 AM	#10 (permalink)
Sun Tzu Conspiracy Realist Location: The Event Horizon	If you learned how to read music early on I would recommend getting Julio Sagrera's first 2 classical guitar books. It will strengthen your reading and help you develop that area of playing. My own personal experience: In junior high (way back when) I first heard Yngwie I became obsessed by that type of technique. Because I was so burnt on Rush, Zepplin, VH, etc all I listened to was that Neoclassical fusion. (Vinnie Moore, Tony Macalpine, Paul Gilbert- 2 of my still favorites Marty Friedman and Jason Becker) plus Al Dimeola and a few Jazz Fusion players. Anyway I practiced alternate picking, sweeps, and the fret hand hammer ons for about 5-6 hours a day. About 2 of that was spent using a steel string acoustic. To make a long story short; it eventually seemed like I was working out then playing music, so that "playing form the heart" may have suffered; but technically the results were amazing. That's probably my own personal experience though. My overall advice is to develop you ear training (aural perception) and further develop your technical chops. I understand that to some that kind of playing sounds too mathematical but having that type of clean technique opens the pathways to multiple areas that may have not been developed otherwise. __________________ *To confine our attention to terrestrial matters would be to limit the human spirit.- Stephen Hawking*

07-09-2004, 11:33 AM	#11 (permalink)
Tusko Psycho	www.guitar.com one of my stomping grounds. good resource. some VERY knowledgable people there.

07-14-2004, 04:03 PM	#13 (permalink)
ForwardtoDeath Tilted	I've been playing guitar for a four or five years now and i definitely second everyones suggestions of learning music theory. While it may be boring at first, it will definitely increase your skills as a both a guitarist and a musician. It is also helpful if you are looking to play in a band, as it allows you to communicate better with people playing other instruments. Also, start writing your own music and work on songwriting. And finally, play music the way it sounds good to you, dont worry about what others think.