perfect / absolute pitch - Tilted Forum Project Discussion Community

student · 11-19-2003, 06:48 AM

i am 22 and started playing guitar at 20. i saw an article that anyone can have perfect pitch in a guitar magazine so i sat down at the piano and started playing trying to hear the different character of the notes. in about 5 minutes, i could hear c and sing a middle c from memory. when listening for the notes, i get hung up sometimes but i can always sing the middle c or an octave lower and higher. is this worth pursuing, ie is it possible for me to develop pp this late in life?

ubertuber · 11-19-2003, 12:29 PM

I don't think I am aware of anyone ever developing a true sense of perfect pitch past their childhood. You are developing your sense of relative pitch to the point that you can retain a note in your head. I can do this with tubas - without a reference I can tell what note someone is playing over a couple of octaves with about 80% accuracy. But what I am doing (and what it sounds like you are doing) is recognizing really fine changes in timbre (tone quality). That is why I can't tell pitch on other instruments when I hear them. True perfect pitch would allow me to hear pitch regardless of timbre. Think of it this way - it would be the ability to "hear" any pitch in your head, or recognize it without a reference the way almost everyone can "see" color in their heads or recognize blue or red when they see it. This more relative pitch is still really valuable, and what you will find even more valuable is the ability to play melodic or even harmonic passages back from first hearing. Try playing things you hear on cds back to the stereo, things like this... Another thing this is useful for is to be able to look at sheet music and be able to "hear" it in your head. Get a tuning fork A440 (they are usually less than $10) and listen to the A from the fork and then sing other notes relative to the A. Practice singing an E or a D after hearing the fork so that you are hearing the relationship between the notes in your head as a concrete thing. Good luck! After some time you will find that you will hear so many more things when you listen to music.

quadro2000 · 11-19-2003, 06:24 PM

Sometimes I wish I had perfect pitch, but I've heard that it's more of a curse than a blessing. If things like ringing phones or doorbells are slightly sharp or flat, it drives you nuts.

I have some kind of pitch recognition but I don't know what to call it. If I hear a song and it's not in the right key - even a half-step off - I know it instantly. And I "remember" keys, so if I'm singing a song acapella, I can almost guarantee I'm singing it in the right key. Also, if you ask me to sing an F, I can do it, but I need a few seconds to sing around to find it. Ubertuber, is that relative pitch?

SabrinaFair · 11-19-2003, 07:02 PM

From what I've heard, perfect pitch is pretty torturous. Imagine going to a high school band concert and being able to to tell how exactly out of tune they are...yikes. From what my music theory teacher taught me, it's more of a built-in thing than an aquired skill. But good luck with it anyway!

ubertuber · 11-19-2003, 07:35 PM

Hey quadro,

The first thing, about songs in the wrong key isn't all that uncommon. Back in the baroque period there was even a whole phase in music in which keys were thought to the ability to provoke a specific involuntary emotional response - D major is joyous and so on. This school of thought is known as the Doctrine of the Affections. It isn't really given much credit anymore, but I bring it up to say that we have known for a while that the ear is very sensitive to pitch even when the brain can't recognize it. Meaning that even if you can't name the key you know that it isn't right. With the singing thing, I can sort of do that too, but a lot of it is because I know from the physical sensation where pitches lie in my voice. Like E flat below bass clef resonates in the bottom of my throat, near my chest. Like I said before, even though I can get pretty close to finding pitches with my voice or name them on an instrument that I am familiar with, I can't identify them from just any sound. More importantly, likewise I can't "prehear" them in my head.

My feeling is that the brain can accept a ton of information from the ears - it can accept way more than it can process. Some people are wired to recognize pitch without reference and some aren't. However, the brain is very canny and can use other clues, like timbre or recognizing the sensation of singing to clue you in. This realization is unconscious though. In music schools you typically have to take a few years of class called ear training. Through listening to piano and singing exercizes they teach you to process pitch more consciously. It is really important because a conscious process is a repeatable one, so if your heart is pounding and your mind is racing from nerves your sense of pitch doesn't crap out on you as well.

By the way, I just noticed that you are in NY - awesome, me too! (which you probably did see before)

LewisCouch · 11-20-2003, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by quadro2000
Sometimes I wish I had perfect pitch, but I've heard that it's more of a curse than a blessing. If things like ringing phones or doorbells are slightly sharp or flat, it drives you nuts.

Good point. My son has had perfect pitch since a young age and it has proven to be an annoyance and a blessing. I've heard him complain on more than one occasion about his curse. For example, he is almost obsessive about tuning. There are some upsides: he once bought a nice Fender strat that would always go SHARP. Since this is unusual, we eventually (after much debate) got a Fender tech to analyze the thing, and it turned out that there was a very slight, almost imperceptible twist in the neck. They replaced the neck and all was well. Fender by the way, fought it tooth and nail. They just didn't want to believe a 13 year old.

student · 11-20-2003, 08:08 PM

ok apparently perfect is something everyone is born with but unless developed is lost....oh well i guess i could settle with relative pitch. although being able to state any note played would just be so awesome

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s593744.htm

search google for perfect pitch...there are a lot of interesting articles about it.

wilbjammin · 11-20-2003, 08:16 PM

Relative pitch can be just as bad... after playing with tuners and bands for year and years and years, there are certain notes (concert B-flat, F, E-flat) that when I hear them at all out of tune a part of my consciousness goes crazy. I often think to myself "sharp sharp sharp sharp... bring the pitch down, damnit!" or the same thing for flatness. This isn't exact with me, a few cents in either direction I might not catch, but sometimes I just know it from the second it reaches my brain. I developed this... I have my own self to blame. A lot of good being a music major for a year did to me, it just made it impossible to enjoy music like I used to as a child. Now music is much more intellectual for me when I play, I wish it wasn't... it takes a lot for me to get carried away, which is probably why I've focused on writing poetry a lot more in the last several years.

ubertuber · 11-20-2003, 08:47 PM

Wilbjammin,

I know just what you are talking about. This is the trick to being a musician - to manage the knowlege mastery requires without making music an intellectual exercise. I say this as someone who is one the path trying to learn the same lesson right now. I do feel that learning to hear and about technical issues has increased my enjoyment in listening though. It is all about the spirit in which you approach the music!

wilbjammin · 11-20-2003, 09:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by ubertuber
Wilbjammin,

I know just what you are talking about. This is the trick to being a musician - to manage the knowlege mastery requires without making music an intellectual exercise. I say this as someone who is one the path trying to learn the same lesson right now. I do feel that learning to hear and about technical issues has increased my enjoyment in listening though. It is all about the spirit in which you approach the music!

Don't get me wrong, I love music, and I'm in a band currently. It just isn't the same anymore. Now I listen to music and I hear the chord structures, I hear the linear movement of the notes and quite often can hear the exact intervals at which this is happening. Instead of it just being sound, it is like looking at architecture while seeing the blueprint, the foundation, the wiring, the support beams hiding behind the walls and ceiling, etc. Luckily, I can still feel the music if there is any degree of expression in it. And it does add the experience having a sort of understanding in the music... kind of like I feel like my understanding gaining from reading literature and philosophy gives me something really tangible. I'm Daedalean at heart. I'm not innocent like a child anymore, but I still find ways to experience joy.

OFKU0 · 11-21-2003, 09:05 PM

I'd rather have my relative pitch than perfect pitch. Keeps you on your toes.

high_way · 11-21-2003, 09:27 PM

can people have no pitch (or very little) pitch recognition what so ever? i find that i dont really notice when something is out of tune. it is very out of tune i can but other than that....

just courious after reading that you guys can tell the differences between pitch, although i dont play an instrument so that could be why.

i am looking at gettin a bass though, so that may help....

taliendo · 11-21-2003, 09:56 PM

my mother is tone deaf -- whether this is a biological possibility or not, she is, trust me.

about the pitch thing, I have always had a very good relative pitch -- a blessing and a curse. Its a helpful tool when singing or tuning an instrument, but to go to my brothers 6th grade orchestra concert is torture (AHHH! the screeching!!!) I love that those kids are learning to play/read music, its just so painful to subject my ear to. yes, i am a selfish bastid.

ubertuber · 11-21-2003, 11:30 PM

High_way,

It's like anything else - practice makes perfect. Or not to be too depressing, but practice makes better at least. We all start somewhere, and we can all hear the same stuff. Some people are just born using those ears better than others. The thing is that no matter how bad or good you are, this is something that can be improved with practice and attention. If you get a bass, I am sure that your ears will grow (figuratively, so don't worry!) because you'll be using them more consciously than ever before.

11-19-2003, 06:48 AM	#1 (permalink)
student Crazy	perfect / absolute pitch i am 22 and started playing guitar at 20. i saw an article that anyone can have perfect pitch in a guitar magazine so i sat down at the piano and started playing trying to hear the different character of the notes. in about 5 minutes, i could hear c and sing a middle c from memory. when listening for the notes, i get hung up sometimes but i can always sing the middle c or an octave lower and higher. is this worth pursuing, ie is it possible for me to develop pp this late in life?

11-19-2003, 12:29 PM	#2 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	I don't think I am aware of anyone ever developing a true sense of perfect pitch past their childhood. You are developing your sense of relative pitch to the point that you can retain a note in your head. I can do this with tubas - without a reference I can tell what note someone is playing over a couple of octaves with about 80% accuracy. But what I am doing (and what it sounds like you are doing) is recognizing really fine changes in timbre (tone quality). That is why I can't tell pitch on other instruments when I hear them. True perfect pitch would allow me to hear pitch regardless of timbre. Think of it this way - it would be the ability to "hear" any pitch in your head, or recognize it without a reference the way almost everyone can "see" color in their heads or recognize blue or red when they see it. This more relative pitch is still really valuable, and what you will find even more valuable is the ability to play melodic or even harmonic passages back from first hearing. Try playing things you hear on cds back to the stereo, things like this... Another thing this is useful for is to be able to look at sheet music and be able to "hear" it in your head. Get a tuning fork A440 (they are usually less than $10) and listen to the A from the fork and then sing other notes relative to the A. Practice singing an E or a D after hearing the fork so that you are hearing the relationship between the notes in your head as a concrete thing. Good luck! After some time you will find that you will hear so many more things when you listen to music. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

11-19-2003, 06:24 PM	#3 (permalink)
quadro2000 All Possibility, Made Of Custard Location: New York, NY	Sometimes I wish I had perfect pitch, but I've heard that it's more of a curse than a blessing. If things like ringing phones or doorbells are slightly sharp or flat, it drives you nuts. I have some kind of pitch recognition but I don't know what to call it. If I hear a song and it's not in the right key - even a half-step off - I know it instantly. And I "remember" keys, so if I'm singing a song acapella, I can almost guarantee I'm singing it in the right key. Also, if you ask me to sing an F, I can do it, but I need a few seconds to sing around to find it. Ubertuber, is that relative pitch? __________________ You have to laugh at yourself...because you'd cry your eyes out if you didn't. - Emily Saliers

11-19-2003, 07:02 PM	#4 (permalink)
SabrinaFair Junkie Location: Louisville, KY	From what I've heard, perfect pitch is pretty torturous. Imagine going to a high school band concert and being able to to tell how exactly out of tune they are...yikes. From what my music theory teacher taught me, it's more of a built-in thing than an aquired skill. But good luck with it anyway! __________________ "With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Be cheerful. Strive to be happy." -Desiderata

11-19-2003, 07:35 PM	#5 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Hey quadro, The first thing, about songs in the wrong key isn't all that uncommon. Back in the baroque period there was even a whole phase in music in which keys were thought to the ability to provoke a specific involuntary emotional response - D major is joyous and so on. This school of thought is known as the Doctrine of the Affections. It isn't really given much credit anymore, but I bring it up to say that we have known for a while that the ear is very sensitive to pitch even when the brain can't recognize it. Meaning that even if you can't name the key you know that it isn't right. With the singing thing, I can sort of do that too, but a lot of it is because I know from the physical sensation where pitches lie in my voice. Like E flat below bass clef resonates in the bottom of my throat, near my chest. Like I said before, even though I can get pretty close to finding pitches with my voice or name them on an instrument that I am familiar with, I can't identify them from just any sound. More importantly, likewise I can't "prehear" them in my head. My feeling is that the brain can accept a ton of information from the ears - it can accept way more than it can process. Some people are wired to recognize pitch without reference and some aren't. However, the brain is very canny and can use other clues, like timbre or recognizing the sensation of singing to clue you in. This realization is unconscious though. In music schools you typically have to take a few years of class called ear training. Through listening to piano and singing exercizes they teach you to process pitch more consciously. It is really important because a conscious process is a repeatable one, so if your heart is pounding and your mind is racing from nerves your sense of pitch doesn't crap out on you as well. By the way, I just noticed that you are in NY - awesome, me too! (which you probably did see before) __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

11-20-2003, 08:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
student Crazy	ok apparently perfect is something everyone is born with but unless developed is lost....oh well i guess i could settle with relative pitch. although being able to state any note played would just be so awesome http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/stories/s593744.htm search google for perfect pitch...there are a lot of interesting articles about it.

11-20-2003, 08:16 PM	#8 (permalink)
wilbjammin * * *	Relative pitch can be just as bad... after playing with tuners and bands for year and years and years, there are certain notes (concert B-flat, F, E-flat) that when I hear them at all out of tune a part of my consciousness goes crazy. I often think to myself "sharp sharp sharp sharp... bring the pitch down, damnit!" or the same thing for flatness. This isn't exact with me, a few cents in either direction I might not catch, but sometimes I just know it from the second it reaches my brain. I developed this... I have my own self to blame. A lot of good being a music major for a year did to me, it just made it impossible to enjoy music like I used to as a child. Now music is much more intellectual for me when I play, I wish it wasn't... it takes a lot for me to get carried away, which is probably why I've focused on writing poetry a lot more in the last several years. __________________ Innominate.

11-20-2003, 08:47 PM	#9 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	Wilbjammin, I know just what you are talking about. This is the trick to being a musician - to manage the knowlege mastery requires without making music an intellectual exercise. I say this as someone who is one the path trying to learn the same lesson right now. I do feel that learning to hear and about technical issues has increased my enjoyment in listening though. It is all about the spirit in which you approach the music! __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam

11-21-2003, 09:05 PM	#11 (permalink)
OFKU0 Junk	I'd rather have my relative pitch than perfect pitch. Keeps you on your toes. __________________ " In Canada, you can tell the most blatant lie in a calm voice, and people will believe you over someone who's a little passionate about the truth." David Warren, Western Standard.

11-21-2003, 09:27 PM	#12 (permalink)
high_way Addict Location: Australia	can people have no pitch (or very little) pitch recognition what so ever? i find that i dont really notice when something is out of tune. it is very out of tune i can but other than that.... just courious after reading that you guys can tell the differences between pitch, although i dont play an instrument so that could be why. i am looking at gettin a bass though, so that may help.... __________________ A stranger is just a friend you havent met yet. Impostor of the imposturous

11-21-2003, 09:56 PM	#13 (permalink)
taliendo Insane Location: an indelible crawl through the gutters	my mother is tone deaf -- whether this is a biological possibility or not, she is, trust me. about the pitch thing, I have always had a very good relative pitch -- a blessing and a curse. Its a helpful tool when singing or tuning an instrument, but to go to my brothers 6th grade orchestra concert is torture (AHHH! the screeching!!!) I love that those kids are learning to play/read music, its just so painful to subject my ear to. yes, i am a selfish bastid. __________________ -LIFE IS ABSURD-

11-21-2003, 11:30 PM	#14 (permalink)
ubertuber spudly Location: Ellay	High_way, It's like anything else - practice makes perfect. Or not to be too depressing, but practice makes better at least. We all start somewhere, and we can all hear the same stuff. Some people are just born using those ears better than others. The thing is that no matter how bad or good you are, this is something that can be improved with practice and attention. If you get a bass, I am sure that your ears will grow (figuratively, so don't worry!) because you'll be using them more consciously than ever before. __________________ Cogito ergo spud -- I think, therefore I yam