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Old 06-26-2009, 09:58 AM   #81 (permalink)
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SF, that was very well put. I agree with you.
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:01 AM   #82 (permalink)
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SF, that was very well put. I agree with you.

Did it just get really cold in here or am I imagining things?
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:03 AM   #83 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by guccilvr View Post
Did it just get really cold in here or am I imagining things?
Dude, I know....
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Old 06-26-2009, 10:38 AM   #84 (permalink)
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...i don't think you want the heat turned up though
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:09 AM   #85 (permalink)
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Apparently, he almost took the Internet with him!

Jackson dies, almost takes Internet with him - CNN.com

It takes a lot to break the Internet, but everyone searching for stories and updates on MJ just about did it!
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Old 06-26-2009, 11:24 AM   #86 (permalink)
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Apparently, he almost took the Internet with him!

Jackson dies, almost takes Internet with him - CNN.com

It takes a lot to break the Internet, but everyone searching for stories and updates on MJ just about did it!

my faith in humanity dies a little more each day.
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Old 06-26-2009, 01:24 PM   #87 (permalink)
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*heads over to the joke thread...*
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Old 06-26-2009, 03:40 PM   #88 (permalink)
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I'm not going to come in and dance on the guy's grave or anything, but I can't say that my life is any different now that he's dead. He's been completely off of my musical radar for about 25 years
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:28 PM   #89 (permalink)
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RIP MJ.




I'll always enjoy the time we had together
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Old 06-26-2009, 04:47 PM   #90 (permalink)
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You know, I'm just going to pretend that the last 20 years never happened, Michael Jackson-wise.

When I was in 5th Grade, Thriller came out--and was the first album I ever bought with my own money. I bought it on vinyl, and spent MANY hours listening to it sitting next to the hi-fi wearing my dad's big ol 70's headphones. I wore one white glove around. I took (and you should know, it pains me to admit this) break dancing classes down at the Rec Center. I learned to do the Wave. To Moonwalk. I was working on my Windmill. Out on a big piece of cardboard in my suburban back yard. I was, in short a Fan.

I'm saddened by the man's death, but I'm with Charlatan: I lost the Michael Jackson I loved decades ago, and I'm long since done mourning about that.
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Old 06-26-2009, 07:06 PM   #91 (permalink)
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I still have my original Thriller vinyl
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Old 06-26-2009, 08:22 PM   #92 (permalink)
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I guess I don't understand why the pedo thing "stuck" even though he was aqquitted of the charges. It just goes to prove that people will make up their mind about someone given the slightest bit of space to engage in personal fantasy.

Nobody stops to figure the accusing family was found to have lied under oath before and that the stories didn't match each time they were told, plus a history of extortionist behavior.

Thats why they threw it out to begin with.
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Old 06-26-2009, 09:17 PM   #93 (permalink)
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Child molestation accusations are difficult to shake off even for normal people. Michael Jackson was undoubtedly a mentally disturbed individual, which just made it even easier to continue to believe the allegations even when he was never shown to be guilty. Personally, there's no way I think he was mentally together enough to evade the law not once, but twice, despite all the circumstantial evidence he was freely willing to admit to. The guy was seriously messed up, but I don't believe he was a child molester. Which, of course, makes his story even more tragic. When you get to be as big as Michael Jackson - literally the most famous entertainer of all time - it attracts a whole lot of terrible people. Combine that with the fact he had absolutely no childhood in which to develop normal interpersonal skills... it's a sad, sad story. And, no, I'm not thinking more highly of him because he recently died. I've been saying these things for years.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:01 AM   #94 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by SecretMethod70 View Post
Child molestation accusations are difficult to shake off even for normal people. Michael Jackson was undoubtedly a mentally disturbed individual, which just made it even easier to continue to believe the allegations even when he was never shown to be guilty. Personally, there's no way I think he was mentally together enough to evade the law not once, but twice, despite all the circumstantial evidence he was freely willing to admit to. The guy was seriously messed up, but I don't believe he was a child molester. Which, of course, makes his story even more tragic. When you get to be as big as Michael Jackson - literally the most famous entertainer of all time - it attracts a whole lot of terrible people. Combine that with the fact he had absolutely no childhood in which to develop normal interpersonal skills... it's a sad, sad story. And, no, I'm not thinking more highly of him because he recently died. I've been saying these things for years.
Thank you for saying that.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:43 AM   #95 (permalink)
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I have been saying for years that I honestly believe MJ never grew up, that somewhere his mind stayed somewhere around the age of 12 and he honestly and innocently enjoyed being around children. He had tons of money and people sought to take advantage.

I mean seriously, what self respecting parent would take any kind of payoff if allegations had been true? I know if it had been my child no amount of money would have kept me from refusing it to see the sorry ass of the person rotting in jail.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:21 AM   #96 (permalink)
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Exactly.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:34 AM   #97 (permalink)
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He's a tragic figure, no doubt. Between the clear psychological fallout of his early life, and the obvious body dysmorphism that drove him to all the plastic surgery, he didn't just have issues, he had a lifetime subscription.

You know, speaking of people taking advantage of a wealthy but vulnerable man... what kind of plastic surgeon keeps working on somebody who's so obviously sick? That guy needs to lose his license. It's as bad as the "doctors" who kept Anna Nicole's pills coming.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:48 AM   #98 (permalink)
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It's funny, but while Jackson has been castigated in some circles for his "unhealthy" relationship with minors, let's say, in some ways, he's been a very good father. The early dangling incident aside, he's largely kept his kids away from the spotlight that probably screwed him up so much. I wonder with him gone will the children now be prostituted by greedy agents and relatives eager for cash and their 15 minutes?
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Old 06-27-2009, 04:16 AM   #99 (permalink)
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He's a tragic figure, no doubt. Between the clear psychological fallout of his early life, and the obvious body dysmorphism that drove him to all the plastic surgery, he didn't just have issues, he had a lifetime subscription.

You know, speaking of people taking advantage of a wealthy but vulnerable man... what kind of plastic surgeon keeps working on somebody who's so obviously sick? That guy needs to lose his license. It's as bad as the "doctors" who kept Anna Nicole's pills coming.
Or Michael Jackson's. I caught something on the news about his personal doctor calling 911 and then disappearing. Very strange. Wouldn't be surprised if he was just taking money for whatever prescription MJ wanted. Could be wrong, but it's suspicious.
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It's funny, but while Jackson has been castigated in some circles for his "unhealthy" relationship with minors, let's say, in some ways, he's been a very good father. The early dangling incident aside, he's largely kept his kids away from the spotlight that probably screwed him up so much. I wonder with him gone will the children now be prostituted by greedy agents and relatives eager for cash and their 15 minutes?
It's true. I saw a recent picture of him with his kids and I couldn't believe how old they have gotten. As much as I'm curious to hear what it was like to have MJ as a father, I hope they are allowed to continue their lives with privacy.
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Old 06-27-2009, 04:34 AM   #100 (permalink)
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What a strange figure he was. I pay my respects to his musical talent.

It's sad that he died so young.

I sang 'Beat It' last night at a gig and people really enjoyed it. RIP MJ.
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Old 06-27-2009, 04:47 AM   #101 (permalink)
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I saw a report yesterday that showed some law suit from a drug store in Beverly Hills. They were suing MJ for 100K in unpaid prescriptions... 10 months worth. Reportedly all pain killers. Who, what... WTF! 10K a month in diluadid and oxycodone? That's a lot of morphine. Somebody was writing these scripts.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:17 AM   #102 (permalink)
 
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i am starting to find the media saturation coverage of this to be really irritating. this independent of anything it refers to. the front page of the nyt has half it's space taken up with infotainment about jackson's finances. there's a giant photo of sequin-studded gloves. below that, wedged under, an article about the ongoing situation in iran. for example.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:31 AM   #103 (permalink)
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...MJ spanned my generation as well as my daughter's. I asked my daughter if she felt like she had grown up with him and was she sad about MJ's passing...then she reminded me...

...she said, "Mom. You never let me listen to him or watch him because you said he was always grabbing his crotch"...hahaha...i'm such a good mom
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Old 06-27-2009, 08:41 AM   #104 (permalink)
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im glad i;

1) dont have a tv subscription
2) dont listen to the radio except on the way to work
3) havent spoken to my friends this weekend
4) am moving apartments

i've surely not missed the whole MJ fiasco play out in the media. im just sick of people paying tributes to MJ on their facebook status! for fucks sake
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:09 AM   #105 (permalink)
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One thing good has come out of the death of MJ. The problems in Iran have been solved!
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:27 AM   #106 (permalink)
 
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estimates are that over 2000 people have been arrested in iran since 12 june for opposing the election farce and no-one seems to know what's happened to them. this article (in french) is from today's le monde:

Vives inquiétudes en Iran sur le sort des victimes de la répression - Proche-Orient - Le Monde.fr

this was the lead story.
idiocy about michael jackson was not.

but this is maybe a separate matter--mj is not responsible for the nitwit decisions made about coverage in the american press.

on the other hand, this piece by germain greer is kinda interesting in that panegyric kinda way:

'
Quote:
Like Orpheus, Michael Jackson was destroyed by his fans'

Another beautiful boy is gone, wiped out in an instant. Michael Jackson, unable to cross the threshhold into manhood, has died at 50, still a boy, coquettish, fantasy-ridden, horribly vulnerable, unable to take control of his life.

His sudden death is a strange kind of victory. He had managed to prevent his ageing and even his growing up. There was no beard upon his chin; his voice was a childish treble. Instead of entering middle age and letting himself be chained to earth, he has floated away like a wisp, annihilated on the brink of a 50-date concert tour that I for one was dreading.

It's all very well for Madonna to be cranking out tour after tour. As she could neither dance nor sing at 25 no one is going to mind that she still can't do it at 50. But to see Michael Jackson faking it would have been heartbreaking. Among the hearts that would have broken is Jackson's own. It has snapped before the debacle. He has been spared.

According to Madonna "the world has lost one of the greats". We haven't lost Michael Jackson, because he cannot disappear. His three great albums will last as long as electronic media continues to exist, while the dross is forgotten.

The era of his astonishing creativity ended 20 years ago; most of what has happened since has been embarrassment. Jackson's kind of transcendental creativity is typical of very young men; it seldom survives into manhood, when the glory fades into the light of common day. Jackson succeeded in prolonging his brilliant boyhood into his thirties, but eventually he ran out of inspiration.

His art had been fuelled by the vernacular culture of the streets but it was many years since he had been able to run with the kids on the block. As his imagination faltered and grew dim, the fending off of maturity became desperate, demented and pointless. The struggle against ageing turned into self-harming and self-mutilation.

Ever since Dionysos danced ahead of his horde of bloody-footed maenads across the rocky highlands of prehistoric Greece, dance and song have been the province of boys. Like Orpheus, Jackson was destroyed by his fans, whose adulation and adoration prevented his living in any kind of normal society. The creativity ebbed away day by day. He became a parody of himself. It is time now to forget all that and salute the miraculous boy who will triumph over death as Dionysos did, becoming immortal through his art.

Nowhere will his contribution be more obvious and his influence more strongly felt than in the world of dance. No choreographer of the last 30 years has been unaware of Jackson's achievement. He rewrote the vocabulary of dance for everyone, from kids competing in talent shows to the royal ballets of Europe.

If the dance establishment did not often acknowledge his influence it was because there was no need. His shapes, his moves were everywhere.

Nijinsky and Nureyev also died young. They, too, were transcendent dancing boys, but they chose to interpret the choreography supplied to them by others.

By contrast Michael Jackson's art was astonishingly innovative. No one could dance like him, until he showed them how, and then they were never as good as he was. His concept of the dance was utterly 20th century, extravagantly multi-dimensional, and not in the least middle class.

Nijinsky may have been the greatest Spectre de la Rose, Nureyev the greatest Corsair, but these two candles pale in the light of Jackson's blazing star. The surprise is not that we have lost him, but that we ever had him at all.

its a bit hyperbolic i think, but still, better than most of the nonsense i've read.
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Old 06-27-2009, 09:58 AM   #107 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by dlish View Post
im glad i;

1) dont have a tv subscription
2) dont listen to the radio except on the way to work
3) havent spoken to my friends this weekend
4) am moving apartments

i've surely not missed the whole MJ fiasco play out in the media. im just sick of people paying tributes to MJ on their facebook status! for fucks sake

curious... why does it aggrivate you so much?

I deal with the same thing on twitter, facebook, myspace, bk, this form, any forum, actually.
I don't seem to be having any temper issues over it though.
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Old 06-27-2009, 11:10 AM   #108 (permalink)
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I have been saying for years that I honestly believe MJ never grew up, that somewhere his mind stayed somewhere around the age of 12 and he honestly and innocently enjoyed being around children. He had tons of money and people sought to take advantage.

I mean seriously, what self respecting parent would take any kind of payoff if allegations had been true? I know if it had been my child no amount of money would have kept me from refusing it to see the sorry ass of the person rotting in jail.
The kind of parent who doesn't want their child raped all over again in a witness stand in front of the world for days or weeks.

Just sayin'.
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Old 06-27-2009, 01:30 PM   #109 (permalink)
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The fact the the parent(s) were caught lying doesn't prove MJ didn't molest their child(ren.) It proves the parents are liars and makes it appear their motives were less then pure. There's no shortage of messed up parents in the world. The fact they're messed up doesn't prove MJ wasn't.

I think if MJ hadn't been a famous music star with a PR team around him most people would have been convinced at- "Jesus Juice," "of course children sleep in my bed, what's more natural then that?" And the fact none of his sleep over partners were girls. To me that all adds up to pedophile. A pedophile that prefers boys.

I stand by my position that musically he's was maybe one of the most talented people ever. God knows when I was in the Navy stationed on Treasure Is. in S.F. Bay having a tape of Thriller in my deck probably got me laid... a lot. I can assure it wasn't the Subaru hatchback I was driving, my charming wit with the ladies, or my high and tight haircut. But personally he was a mess of a human being. I think he was a victim of abuse (maybe not sexually, but emotionally) at the hands of his father. Most abusers start out as victims. It's a circle that almost can not be broken. My hope is he really was a good parent to his children, that that isn't just his PR team at work. I fear even if he was what's going to happen to them now will screw them up for the rest of their lives. I fear they're in for years of I want them, no I want them. And the reality will be no one really wants them, they'll only be interested in the royality right to MJ songs which will go on earning money for ever.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:36 PM   #110 (permalink)
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That's a huge leap you're taking, Tully.

So he's been found not guilty within the legal system, the parents lied and were motivated by money, but he's still guilty? Just because one can't wrap their mind around the fact that his definition of love is pure and heartfelt doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

This is the first I've heard about physical and emotional abuse leading to pedophilia.
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Old 06-27-2009, 02:48 PM   #111 (permalink)
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Seems odd that Michael Jackson has been abusing children since at LEAST 1993 when the first charges were brought against him. The first had the mother denying abuse had happened and the second time the father accusing his ex-wife of cohearsing her kids to say what she wanted and she was batshit insane too boot. Also seems odd that no other people have come forward against him, even 16+ years later when they became adults nobody else has really made accusations. Children that grew up around him like Macaulay Culkin were still good friends with him. It seems to me that like the Catholic church when everyone came out at the same time, but in Jackson's case, all of the other children and parents have denied wrong doing. It just doesn't add up for me. I'm not saying he did or didn't do anything. I don't know. I hope not. I just have to accept that he was not found guilty in either case. He was weird and It's easy to believe pretty much anything about weird people.

holy shit, that paragraph made almost no sense at all. I need to go to sleep.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:12 PM   #112 (permalink)
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That's a huge leap you're taking, Tully.
It is? Which part?

Quote:
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So he's been found not guilty within the legal system, the parents lied and were motivated by money, but he's still guilty? Just because one can't wrap their mind around the fact that his definition of love is pure and heartfelt doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.
Our justice system finds people "not guilty" never "innocent." You're welcome to believe whatever you please. But I honestly think if it were Joe Blow the local grade school maintenance man going around passing out "Jesus juice" and having sleep overs with prepubescent boys (never girls) not very many people would be finding "reasonable doubt."

But what do I know? I always thought OJ was guilty too.

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This is the first I've heard about physical and emotional abuse leading to pedophilia.
After running sex offender treatment groups for the State of Oregon every Thursday night for over eight years I can assure you it's not the first I've heard of it. If you're interested I could recommend a few books. Really anything by R.K. Hanson is good. There's several by a husband and wife team name Abrams that are not bad either.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:19 PM   #113 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Tully Mars View Post
Our justice system finds people "not guilty" never "innocent." You're welcome to believe whatever you please. But I honestly think if it were Joe Blow the local grade school maintenance man going around passing out "Jesus juice" and having sleep overs with prepubescent boys (never girls) not very many people would be finding "reasonable doubt."
Interesting, I never realized the semantic difference. One is not proclaimed innocent, even though the supposition is that you are innocent until proven guilty.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:35 PM   #114 (permalink)
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Interesting, I never realized the semantic difference. One is not proclaimed innocent, even though the supposition is that you are innocent until proven guilty.
The justice system is made up of people, people make mistakes. Just like DNA has found that some people on death row could not have done the crime there have been cases where DNA has proved people found not guilty actually did in fact do it. Usually double jeopardy applies but sometime the feds move in and charge the person with a violation of anothers civil rights. Think about all those cases where KKK members were found "not guilty" only years later to be found guilty of civil rights violations for murdering someone.

Have you ever sat through an actual trial? It's interesting what evidence gets to the jury and what does not based on the law.
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Old 06-27-2009, 03:36 PM   #115 (permalink)
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I'm here to derail the thread further ... I have always known that "not guilty" simply means "You did it but we just can't prove it" but there have a been a few times you could ask the court to absolve you of certain charges if found not guilty and with considerable proof alsio find you proven innocent as well as guilty. I just can't seem to find for the life of me when this was ever applied.
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Old 06-27-2009, 05:59 PM   #116 (permalink)
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It's funny, but while Jackson has been castigated in some circles for his "unhealthy" relationship with minors, let's say, in some ways, he's been a very good father. The early dangling incident aside, he's largely kept his kids away from the spotlight that probably screwed him up so much. I wonder with him gone will the children now be prostituted by greedy agents and relatives eager for cash and their 15 minutes?

I don't think making your kids wear masks while in public is really a recipe for self-adjusted children. Think they might have some self-worth issues as adults?
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Old 06-27-2009, 10:07 PM   #117 (permalink)
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And the craziness continues... Relatives now want a second autopsy. Yes, it's a shame he's dead, but the constant news coverage is driving me nuts. "Breaking news! Jackson is still dead, now we will tell you all about the fact that we know nothing yet." And Sharpton and Jesse Jackson getting involved is 99.999% about getting their mugs on TV. Disgusting.
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Old 06-28-2009, 03:32 AM   #118 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Derwood View Post
I don't think making your kids wear masks while in public is really a recipe for self-adjusted children. Think they might have some self-worth issues as adults?
I think that's a pretty minor infraction compared to the way other celebrity or pseudo-celebrity kids have been prostituted in the media, don't you?

Shit, go to Asia and watch people wander around with masks all the time (scared of pollution, germs, whatever). Even here in North America you see a bit of it.
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Old 06-28-2009, 04:08 AM   #119 (permalink)
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I don't see the kids wearing face masks as that big of deal. For all I know it was the kids idea. I don't lots of children who want to behave like their parent(s.) Maybe MJ was simply trying to shield the children from the prying eyes of the public.
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Old 06-28-2009, 01:12 PM   #120 (permalink)
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I haven't watched any of the coverage, but when my daughter and I stopped into a McDonald's to pee on Thursday night, we saw the story playing on the news. Somehow I was not surprised at all.

We listened to Michael Jackson songs on the ipod for the rest of the trip.

I haven't watched any news coverage or read anything about his death and I probably won't. As for speculation about Michael Jackson as a person - pfft, I could give a rat's ass. He left behind some great music, some good music and, frankly, some suckass music. All of that other crap is none of my business. Even though the Greer piece rb posted is a little over the top, I do admit that I've always felt that way about him...somewhat.
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